Sasquatch

Well, you know me, I ain't shy, I will tell you what I think about shooting through brush!

It's a throw of the dice, regardless of bullet, regardless of any situation. Chances are best when the animal is very close behind the brush, but still no promises. I have been bitten a few times shooting through brush, and got lucky a time or two shooting through brush. Mostly bitten in the ass however.

I always think to do some stick and brush tests, but the truth of the matter is that regardless of any outcome of any test, it would not prove anything that we could take as "absolute". It might one time, it might not the next and so forth.

To answer the question given """Anybody think I could have made a clean kill?""" Maybe? But no guarantees. When it comes to brush, I think one is better off to wait, or to not shoot at all.

I have regrets both ways to be honest. I remember one time when I now wished I had shot, and remember more times when I did shoot, that I wished I had not. I fall on the side of "Not".



Won't get much done for you this week! Have that pinched nerve again in my back, pulling on that muscle again in my left leg! I am down until that gets sorted out.

Michael

Oh and how about those BBW#13 Solids? Doing exactly what they are supposed to do, knocking elephants down one by one! Or two by two, or three or four!

Yes, heed the warnings, BBW#13s Drive DEEP and DEEP and damned straight! No sacrifice of performance with a BBW#13 Solid!

I know personally of extreme success of another elephant dropped some time ago, 500 Nitro, 570 BBW#13 Solid, but promised not to reveal until the story is written up, so still waiting.

Now Jim and his two big elephants with the 480 BBW#13 solid, and of course our boy Lionhunter and his success with that same 480! Now you boys recall, I told you the 480 was so good, there was not a need for a 500 in .458. I still stand with that call. However, Dan did make some of you hard heads out there some 500s. I don't have any of those, the 480 is dandy, and since it's burning through elephants from one end to the other, why need a 500?

Be it far beyond me to ever ever say "I told You So"

HEH HEH.............

I can't wait to hear more on this from Jim! WOW--I have those photos--WOW. Oh and don't forget about our boy Aaron as well with the 577!

Boys, I tell you this, the days of Elephant running off, the days of buffalo taking 10-15 bullets, those days are done! We just have to do our job and put them in the right place, the bullet will do it's job!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
We just have to do our job and put them in the right place, the bullet will do it's job!
Michael

The first commandment in hunting is bullet placement and the second, bullet performance is like unto it. On these two commandments lie all the rest of the laws of hunting.

Michael

You might check this out--should be fun

http://forums.accuratereloadin...461009461#6461009461

AR party Saturday night at DSC.

SSR

That party is always a hoot. Have agreed with retreever and jaeger to help them set it up on Saturday and to provide a couple of bottles of cheap hootch.

Two deer down to 416 Carnivores. One shot quartering at 150 yards and bullet base exited in front of ham. Deer did run but I don't know how. All mush inside. Second one shot broadside through the shoulders at 100 yards. This one made it about twenty yards. Exit hole on this one was about 2 inches in diameter and star shaped. Bone and goo everywhere. How on earth a 80 lb deer can run after a shot like that I don't know. Autopsy results show death do to CARNIVORE!

Ok, what amount of meat was lost do to bullet damage? Might need to shoot #13 solids on our smeller deer. Plenty to kill'm and still have more to eat. Not knocking the HPs just might be ti much of a good thing.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
We just have to do our job and put them in the right place, the bullet will do it's job!
Michael

The first commandment in hunting is bullet placement and the second, bullet performance is like unto it. On these two commandments lie all the rest of the laws of hunting.

Well I can't argue with that--100% Spot on, in fact, hell I'll even have a drink on that!



Sam

I saw the two photos you sent, I can't see how anything can go anywhere with that much damage! I don't know, I suppose some of them just don't know when to quit! Carnivores are wicked wicked bullets and I think, will serve the purpose intended for them. More work required I believe.


Keith, I think the Carnivores may do way too much damage for the meat hunter, to meat. The deer Sam shot today looks like one entire side is totally bloodshot up. I think the ESP Raptors do most of the damage to inside vitals from what I hear on the two deer shot here, both guys say that the vitals were totally destroyed completely, but little meat damage. Of course Sam was shooting the equal to the 416 B&M, and a Carnivore, somewhat of a different animal than the "Raptor", for a different purpose, lion, leopard, bear, close range massive trauma. But not being a meat hunter myself, I rely upon what others tell me in that respect, I do my meat hunting at the grocery store when in country, and have a tendency to like those tamed buffalo we know as cows! I just like cows! Hell, Texas got lot's of cows, I don't know why anyone would eat a damned deer anyway!

HEH HEH....

Michael

Meat damage! What meat! Now when I shoot a deer I usally shoot them through the shoulders so I don't have to track them through a Carolina Bay. Those that don't know what that is its a jungle that you either go under or over not through. I'm not worried about ruining the shoulders because thats hamburger anyway and I don't eat hamburgers. The bullet did make hamburger out of everything it went close to. Insides of both deer were soup. For what the Carnivore was designed for I think it is perfect. Killing cats dead. Now I have eaten lion and it was good but I'm not worried about messing up lion or leopard meat. If you don't want to mess up meat shoot a Woodleigh solid, you can hardly find the hole they went through.

I'll try to post some photos tomorrow.

Sam

Sam, I realize that you just had to "blood" those bullets.

Maybe you ought to try a cheast to rump shot, and bring home more meat. Do not worry, you should still get a pass thru, maybe a rwo deer pass thru if you can get them to lije up right.

Keith

Hog Killer,

The first one I shot today was quartering to me and I hit it on the point of the shoulder. Bullet or what was left of it exited just in front of ham on opposite side. One shoulder mush and whole rib cage bloodshot. Insides soup! Hams and loins were perfect and the opposite shoulder ok.

Sam

my savage (currently in 270) is stupid accuarate.. so, i'll put the 30-06 barrel on it and try some raptors... and then... working on a remington automagic for my semi auto rig....

Are you going for a cheap barrel or something more target ready?

hunting gun... sub moa with the nightsight DURING THE DAY is good enough, aint it?

Should be sweet

If a guy knew the caliber of rifle used by the PHs who attend the DSC, it would be interesting to distribute promotional boxes of say a half dozen rounds each of #13 CEB solids, noncons and carnivors as promotional items to each of the PHs in their own caliber. Accompanying the box should be photos of field results. Who knows, some of the PHs might actually take the cartridges home and try them.

I received word this morning that CEB is working on all calibers of Raptors this week. Running behind, initial run is 250 of each caliber. Some will be coming here for terminal tests, some going to Sam for accuracy checks, some staying at CEB for accuracy and BC work. I intend to try and get short range BCs as well, 50 yard BC. Looks like bullets may be sent out on Monday next week. Give a couple of weeks or so to get all the tests done, approved, and we move from that point.

I don't have cartridges in all the small bores to test, so Sam will load some of the ones I don't have and we will work with those. I have .224, .257, .264 and then nothing until .308, .338, .358, and of course 9.3 or .366. I am very interested in the 9.3 ESP Raptor personally!

Coming.

Michael

Michael,
Besides those calibers you mentioned (except 9.3). I also have .243, 7-30 Waters, 7mmRemMag, 7mmSTW, .30/30, and .308Win. Able to do accuracy work at 7, 10, 15, 25, 50, 100, 200, and 300 yards.

Just a quick note, Had a friend's 9 year old daughter killed her first deer this week using a 223 Rem with a CEB BBW#13 Non con.

Also I just took my go to 308 long range gun out and sighted in with Raptors for this afternoons hunt. No sighting in nessasary as they hit dead center at 100 yards when my gun sighted for 173 grain match bullets. A real switch bullet!

Gone to go bust one!

That is cool that your target set up is now a hunting one too. What I think is quite interesting is the .2 SD Raptors are out performing in tests those bullets that are about a .3 SD that is a huge deal! And it seems the terminal performance on game the faster the better so you get a few hundred more fps with the lighter bullet. It is like going from a 308 to a 300 Win. That is a big deal.

I'll shoot these Saturday long range to see how the BC works out.

No kill this afternoon. Saw one little doe and 20 turkeys. That Raptor wanted to swoop down.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Had a friend's 9 year old daughter killed her first deer this week using a 223 Rem with a CEB BBW#13 Non con.

Details, man, details.

Keith

Details OK. I put together a light weight AR-15 with one of those DPMS uppers Midway had on sale. Took that bird cage ear buster off it and made a plain muzzle cap for it. Had a 6 position stock on it and put an old Weaver K-4 scope on it. Loaded BBW#13 62 grain Non cons with 25 grains of Varget and a 205 Federal primer. Velocity was 2850 or so. I forgot. The little girl missed her first shot and deer ran alittle bit and stopped. Because it was an AR her dad just said shoot again. She hit deer low in brisket at shoulder quartering. Deer ran about 100 yards pouring blood. Her dad said bullet did a great job but he didn't get me an autopsy or photos. The deer was a spike buck about 100 lbs. That's all I know.

Thanks, Sam.

Keith

Kieth,

I'll be bringing some 375H&H loaded with BBW#13 NonCons this weekend. Hopefully someone(jeffe) will remember to bring chrony. I have been invited to pig hunt another place and I really want to bust a porker with one of these.

'Squatch

Michael,

I know you like your levers, and thats not a bad thing. I picked up my 25-20 this morning. Now I need to see if the 80gr Rapters will be too long. Dan said we might do a run of 60gr and if they work fantastic. I think the Raptors are really going to revitalise lever guns. Heck I used to have a Marlin in 375 Win that would have loved Rapters! Also looking at a 35-40gr run in .223 for 22Hornet......Details, Details....

Any idea what the weight will be for the .620 diameter Carnivores?

'Squatch

quote:

And it seems the terminal performance on game the faster the better so you get a few hundred more fps with the lighter bullet.

Roy Weatherby would have loved this work. Too bad he's not around to take advantage of the CEB #13 soilds, noncons, carnivors and raptors. Maybe the current company should use these CEBs to load up their offerings?

Wonder how the 9.3mm DGW would like these bullets? The DGW is a 9.3 on a 416 Rigby case. Runs about 3000 fps.

Squatch

I concur, while these days all my lever work is 50 B&M Alaskan, I still have 45/70, and a few 30/30s, I think somewhere there is a 32 something or other as well. But I have too 38/55s I like, but I think they are .377??? I forget, have not had them out in years. But yes, the Raptors are going to be incredible revival for these rifles.

Crap, you have about as many details or more than I do! I am just waiting like you guys to see what is what, when it comes? According to Nathan yesterday, bullets being sent next week for testing, all experimental Raptors until checked out. Soon as they arrive, I will start taking photos to show what is what, and how!

.620 Carnivores! Jesus, not sure they are even needed as good as that big NonCon is! I mean after all, you are starting at .620 to begin with, how much more do you want? LOL..........

Michael

IBT

I don't know, nor much care about a big gun, sounds to me a 9.3 DGW or whatever has to be on a big gun!

I do think of the 9.3 B&M and the new 230 gr ESP Raptor however. I imagine something like 2800-2850 fps or so in it's 20 inch tube, being just about the perfect plains game type rifle. If this occurs, this will be the bullet in Andrews new 9.3 B&M that is going to Africa for next years work on plains game by his clients. It will most certainly get a workout next season!

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
IBT

I don't know, nor much care about a big gun, sounds to me a 9.3 DGW or whatever has to be on a big gun!

I do think of the 9.3 B&M and the new 230 gr ESP Raptor however. I imagine something like 2800-2850 fps or so in it's 20 inch tube, being just about the perfect plains game type rifle. If this occurs, this will be the bullet in Andrews new 9.3 B&M that is going to Africa for next years work on plains game by his clients. It will most certainly get a workout next season!

M

I didn't mean to sound like I was pushing for a big gun/cartridge system. I wanted to make the point that bullet construction and design of the #13 line solves a lot of big gun/big cartridge bullet failures.

The B&M SYSTEM raises the question of why the big gun/big cartridge at all?

I'd like to see Weatherby and some others loading the #13 line BUT I don't want the bullet licensed to them. Buy the bullets from CEB. That way the quality of the bullets will be insured and there won't be any "improvements".

I'd go along with having some of the folks who will handload for a fee picking up the #13 line as an offering. Same with the B&M line of cartridges.

I'd like to see Winchester pick up the whole line. Better still, introduce a line of Model 70 "carbines" in B&M calibers.

I want to see the work done here become part of the mainstream.

By the by, I'd like to see the 9.3 replace the 375 as the favorite "big" caliber for North American hunting. But that's a whole 'nother story.

Greetings to All!

I am new to all of this... but I just got back from Australia, and wanted to share some of what I realized using 275/.375 and 255/9.3mm Cutting Edge Bullets' NonCons on 'smaller' game, Down Under.

I had great plans to take a Sako Black Bear in .370 Sako, aka 9.3x66 Sako, as well as a Ruger Alaskan in .416 Ruger... AND a Steyr Big Bore in .450 Marlin. Turns out, Australian customs was pretty silly about the whole process (landing in NSW- Sydney- but hunting in Queesnland. NSW would not issue the permit to bring guns/ammo into THEIR state, until I first received my hunting permit from Queensland). Anyway... now I know what to do for next year, and how soon to start.

The teaser is while in PA, I got the Steyr .450 shooting 420-gr NonCons into one-hole cloverleafs at 50 yards (under 1/2" at just over 2,000 fps) and the .416 Ruger from my factory 20" Alaskan- was hitting 2,600 fps with the 325s, and 2,400 fps with the 370 NonCons- again... in one hole cloverleafs! Never got to shoot the 370 Sako, as the factory waited and waited to send it to me, until it was too late (this model and caliber will be imported into the US starting the first of next year- they sent me a media rifle to test). So none of these guns and loads got to go with me... what to do?

My Australian friend who had invited me over, came to the rescue. He had plenty for me to shoot with. As I was also setting him up to reload- had mailed him 18 boxes of reloading goodies- I just went and brought bullets to load in his new reloading room I was to set up for him. By the way- he had to apply for a permit for me to bring him the needed bullets, and it was nerve racking waiting for that permit to arrive, so I could legally bring plain, naked projectiles into Oz! Paperwork, paperwork!

I ended up loading his 20" Steyr Pro Hunter in .376 Steyr using ADI powders, which actually are relabled and sold in the good old USA under the Hodgdon brand. Ended up with a load pushing the 275 NonCon from his Steyr at right around 2,500 fps. Just sighted it in briefly, and went hunting. Also got to take a cherry, very rare 24" Mannlicher-Schoenauer, 1952 model in 9.3x62 with the 255 NonCons (well, I almost got to take the 9.3x66... sort of). These also were doing right at 2,500 fps from the longer barrel.

So and hour or so after we get to Strathburn Safaris- www.strathburnsafaris.com/au , a 600,000+ acre cattle station- in Cape York (the 'pointy' part of Australia, in the far NE corner) the guide Alisdair asks if we want to take a short drive... of course we did. So I am carrying the .376 Steyr with the 275 NCs, and just as we round a corner... there stands a pretty big, black pig in about a foot of water, munching on water lillies. Up snaps the .376, I hold at the top of the back, because it looks kinda far, and launch a Cutting Edge Bullet 275 NonCon at 'only' 2,500 fps. The large pig (200 lbs or so) drops/splashes at the shot, and for a short while, it looks like someone threw two cordless cake mixers in the water!

Upon examination, the 275 hit about 4" down from the very top edge, punching through both shoulder blades. The entry hole is like you see in other photos of game taken with the NCs... pretty much looks like it was hit with a 3/8" wadcutter- the exit hole was slightly larger at maybe 1/2"... and just a bit more ragged. Alsidair was fairly impressed with the precision of the shot (he has seem some might bad shooting in his days, says he), as we later lasered it at 220 meters (about 240 yards). I was reeeeeeally excited, and wanted to do a full autopsy, but he said, "It's just a sow, lets go shoot a big boar!"... so down the road we went.

I have lots more to share, but lunch is almost over, and I need to get back to work. When I get the chance, I will update more NonCons in the 376 and the 9.3x62... and also my successes in Zimbabwe using a Marlin .50 Alaskan, shooting the 450-gr Barnes Originals and 525-gr hardcast bullets.

Take care for now, Alasken-Oz

Welcome!
What a great first post.

A-O,
Welcome to the best thread on the AR Forums. Glad you were able to overcome some severe obstacles…very nice 1st report, I look forward to reading more.

Alasken-Oz,

Sounds great so far and I look forward to hearing more about you Non con use.

Sam

Alasken Oz

Great Big Welcome!!!!!!!!!! We are very happy to have you, and Boomy is correct, excellent first post and report--Only problem is, now you have us all hanging on the edge for the "Rest of the Story", we can hardly wait!!!!!!!

Sounds like a horrible nightmare you went through just to get to do some shooting down under. Thank goodness that my man Paul took care of all those issues before we arrived in 2009, and Paul if you are watching this, you damned well better take care of all these paper work issues this coming year as well!!!!!

240 yard pig, good shooting! Not sure I could have even seen a pig that far!

As said, Welcome, thanks for sharing so far, and much looking forward to the rest of the story!

Michael

Continuing saga of- 275/.375 and 255/9.3mm Cutting Edge Bullets' Non Cons on 'smaller' game, Down Under...

All told, 8 of 9 really nice boars were taken using the 275/.375 Non Cons from the .376 Steyr at 'only' 2,500 fps. Most dropped at the shot, none went farther than a few steps. Always a 'Ga-Zinta'... and always a 'Ga-Zouta'. And typically, the entry hole is caliber+ with the hide cleanly cut out like it was punched with a cookie cutter, and the exit hole is maybe 30~50% larger in diameter, and more jagged. Without even opening them up, it was interesting to place two spread fingers about an inch away from the entry hole, jostle the position of the hide to line up with the BIG HOLE in the shoulder blade, and clearly see inside the critter. Ouch! Even more impressive, when you do the same to the exit side of the hide. Finger sized hole in the impact shoulder blade, and almost thumb sized in the exit shoulder blade- of course for a bullet to do this, a rib or two on both sides were also shattered.

The insides were always a mess, hamburger and such. When we 'butterfly' the far shoulder blade- cutting open the 'armpit' skin, and flipping/laying the leg up and away over the top of the spine, I would find the finger sized hole from the base penetrating through, and sometimes even a petal from the nose. I only recovered two of these, but they came in right around 9-grains. On one boar, shot at around 60 yards, one petal exited the far side, through the thinner part of the shoulder blade, about 2 inches from the base core exit. After a while, there was no need to keep doing autopsies. Same results whether perfectly broadside, quartering to or away... yawn, yawn, yawn. So... this is what can you expect from a 275/.375 CEB Non Con at only '2,500 fps' , in fair sized feral boars. Alisdair was soon won over with how my friend Miles and I were shooting, and was really impressed with the Non Cons' extra-ordinary performance.

The little 9.3 that could-
Still loaded to ~2,500 fps (both cartridges were loaded with the Hodgdon equal of H4895) from the longer barreled 24" full stock Mannlicher, the 9.3 was 'only' shooting a 255-grain Non Con. It made no difference at all, in comparison to the 275/.375. Given a well placed shot to the chest, pig drops where is stood, kicks a bit perhaps, then all is quiet. One memorable event, happened when we were walking a dried up creek bed, As Alisdair and I came around a bend, he pointed out a black pig sleeping, and tucked against the undercut on the far side, perhaps 60 yards distant. I dropped to one knee, slammed it with a 255/9.3 and all was quiet, EXCEPT for the other two right next to it that jumped up and milled around. The slick Mannlicher ejected a casing and ate up the next round- bang, drop! I stood up, the lined up on a smaller boar- only about 80 lbs, and hit him on the mid-snout as he faced me. Down he went. The entry hole on his muzzle, looks exactly like the prior photo on this thread, of a buffalo who took two on his snout. What amazed me though, was the fact that he pretty much was gutted from sternum back, as the bullet angled down and out between his rear legs, spilling everything in the sand. Humane? You bet...

Big Sloooooow Non Cons on really small game...
Probably won't open up, right? Don't bet on it! Early one morning, we are driving down a dirt road (they all were dirt) in the Toyota, trying to get to a new area which had just opened up. Low and behold, up ahead about 100 yards we spot a small critter, jet black, stationary in the middle of the road. As we approach it in the slowing vehicle, we see it is a feral cat (they kill lots of native birds, and are greatly disliked), but he scoots off to our left into the scrub, about 50 yards to my left, and 20 yards or so behind me. His head is hidden behind a tree- he can't see us, so figures we can't see him. But I crane and twist around back to my left rear, throw the long barrel of the 9.3 Mannlicher out the side window, and see the back half of him through the vintage, straight 6x Weaver scope. The 255 NC hit him just in front of the last rib on his left side. He ran over 300 yards, and required 25 minutes of tracking through heavy brush- NOT! Just like the little pig above, he of course dropped at the shot. The physical trauma to the feral tabby, was exactly the same as the 80 lb hog above. Alisdair was whooping and hollering, as no client had ever taken a feral cat, while he has been guiding. So yes, medium caliber Cutting Edge Bullets' Non Cons, do work on smaller game as well.

Summary- the Bottom Line
Other traditional bullets were also loaded and shot, as well as other mono-metal expanding ones. They all worked okay, when driven to around 2,500 fps- which is what one would expect. But hunting is more than just 'things working OK'. Miles and I had CONFIDENCE every time we pulled the trigger and launched a Non Con. We knew what would happen, that there would be no tracking, and towards the end, we carefully metered out the Non Cons, loading them in the chamber, and using the 'other stuff' in the magazine. Pretty much, we never had to dip into that reserve!

As I am new to this, I will have to figure out how to post some photos from the above stories. I have to go now, and hope you enjoyed the read, Alasken-Oz

Ops! Forgot to tell you about the double-tap, black and white monster Miles and I smacked... Oh well, later...

A-O, great post on your hunt!

Keith

Looking forward to your next post.

A-O... Now you have us all worked up waiting the the next addition.

A-O, fantastic hunt/bullet report.

Brought back some great memories for me, I hunted Strathburn many moons ago when freinds of mine owned it.
Hog hunting heaven !
Even had my honeymoon there !!!
Great to see that the Non-con is just as effective on medium sized game as it is when used on big game.

I beleive that, in time, these bullets will be recognised as the greatest advancement in sporting projectile peformance in recent times.

I'm particularily chuffed that you noticed the "clean-cut" of the exits and entry wounds, something about these bullets that, in my opinion has been under emphisised.
The definition of the wound channel promotes blood flow and , if you ever need to track animals hit you are assured a decent trail.

quote michael458;
"and Paul if you are watching this, you damned well better take care of all these paper work issues this coming year as well!!!!!",
yes but remember Mike if worse comes to worse and your riles are confiscated I have a box full of CZ 550's in .375 all loaded with Woodlieghs that you can borrow ! (bwahahahaha).

I wish I had more time to read through all of these pages - I've missed a great deal of good stuff lately. Sounds like the CEB bullets do a bang up job for their intended purposes.

Damn - now I need to load up a bunch of 375 Non-Cons for my V-C 375FL ...