Yeah don't get Boomy started again with aluminum. He is already supposed to be sending me some zinc to try. Why don't you guys get someone to mold you some bullet out of hard plastic or wax. I used to love to shoot wax bullets. Hummm wonder how a #13 would do in wax.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Heck yeah! Tell me all about it!

I'm not gonna bit on that one. It's back in the 1st 100 pages if you really want to look it up.

I dont know if im loved or hated lol.
Yes I've moved on to Zinc now

If you copper electroplate the aluminum you will negate the abrasive effects of aluminum oxide.
As far as an AR15 is conserned: Get an upper for any WSSM and convert to 458 B&M Super Short. The WSSM locking lugs are twice the size of the regular AR lugs and can handle the pressure. The 458 B&M SS makes the SOCOM very tame in comparison.
This is all hypothetical since no one has done it yet, but it should work. IMHO

Cheers, John

Hey Guys! See ya'll have been busy as normal! I had to be out all afternoon and just now getting back.

At any rate, I think we can breath some new fire in the Old 30/30 cartridge! Quickly this morning I got a test in with the 130 ESP Raptors, in the 30/30 as we have talked about earlier. As suspected, no surprises, the bullet performed very good. I had no real load data on 30/30, and if I did I just never thought enough of it to even record it as data, as I know I have loaded 30/30 in the past, and still have most everything I have loaded. I just picked 34 gr of TAC out of the Barnes book, Max load for the 130 TSX. Did not seem like much to me, so I am sure velocity can be increased, but I was shooting a 16 inch barrel Winchester.



Solids first! Oh yes, you guys know I love a good solid, and this is a dandy, it's a BBW#13, so what can you say!



I dare say there are NO 30/30 bullets on the market that can do that. And dead damned straight as well, see the photos, one is from the rear, you see the NonCon part, the other is the second bullet from the front of course.





Nose forward, full speed ahead!

Next turned around with the NonCon forward!



A photo says it all! The 30/30 just changed it's spots!

Michael

Sorry guys. No pig killing for me this weekend. There will be other chances.

'Squatch

So the solid end out of a 30-30 out penetrates a soft by a factor of 3 and the hollow point by a factor of two. These bullets made the old 30-30 as deadly as a modern 30 with conventional softs. Outstanding!

Hey Capoward

Your nice sequence of mushroomed 300grn Barnes TTSX bullets from different velocities reminded me of something that's been botherng me.

Supposedly, the tipped Barnes bullet provide superior long rang performance due to the improves aerodynamic shape, right? Problem is, when you look at the BCs for the .300grn .458 bullet, it just doesn't play out. The .458 300grn TTSX SOCOM bullet pictured in you post has a BC of .236, while the 300grn TSX which I recently acquired for my new .458 B&M SA has a BC of .234. This is so close to being no difference at all that it's not funny.

The Barnes MRX (Maximum Range Bullets) with the Silvex cores are supposed to be the best for long range, yet these have lower BCs in the corresponding calibre and weight than the TTSX bullets. I bought some very expensive MRX bullets for my .338 Federal only to discover that they have a lower BC than the TTSX. Disappointing.

While I'm griping about the otherwise very good Barnes product line, what are they doing going back to round nose solids? Is it just so that they can claim to release 'new' products? As we all know Mchael has shown that flat points are far superior for penetration. You'd think that they worked this out too, since they went to flat points when they did.

MFS

Hey Michael

Are you going to make a Carnivore bullet in .458 cal short and light enough to fit into my little .458 B&M SA? When I eventually take it out after Grrzzly Baars, I want to know that I have the most devastating projectile available to me (without going to HE).

Yes, I've got the .295grn Non-Cons that you sent me, but now they seem almost ho-hum by comparison.

MFS

Raptor Report,

There have been Raptors flying around the shop lately. Mainly in the small sizes but they will grow into the large ones soon enough. Oh yea, and they have talons to. We had them all proven out but when I looked at the cycle time I flipped a lid and we are re-doing everything we did today. The objective was to get all the main little ones proven out so if I could swing going to Idaho the guys could run them while I was gone. We have the .257's good to go and will have .338, 2 different weight 7mm's, 270, 6.5mm, 6mm, and 2 different weight 22 caliber Raptors ready to fly by the end of the day tomorrow. The plan is to send a box of each to 4 different guys plus us and make sure everything is correct before we sell any to anyone. They should be able to go out to Michael and Sam early next week. The big Raptors will be next on the agenda and of course I will send them to the man for testing before we put them out. I am 99.9% sure we have the correct formula so all should fly well on their first flight.

On another note, we are looking for a Marketing/Sales Manager. If anyone knows anyone with experience marketing a product please send them in my direction.

Boomy,
I have been thinking about the hexalobe idea and the only drawback is I am sure they will require a higher velocity to shear conpared to the current NonCon shape. Not to mention they will be more of a PIA to manufacture like Sam mentioned. If we would try anything like that it would be in the DGBR series since they are more for up close and personal shots where velocity is high. The Raptors are probably best left for maximum trauma at longer distances. Judging by how well the little 22 NonCon did on deer so far I don't think we need more trauma for thin skinned critters. Now the big critters are something different.

You all keep up the good work. It is like we have a whole team of R & D specialist working for us and we do pay attention. I'm not real crazy about aluminum bullets though.

Someone asked about a patent on the Raptors and yes the provisional is filed.

MFS,
Those are Michael's photographs from testing he did earlier this year of the .458 300gr TTSX.

It's rather interesting that the 300gr TTSX is listing as a .458 Socom bullet while the 300gr TSX are with the standard .458 caliber listing; I assume that means they're slightly tougher construction therefore won't open as well at lower velocities.

If you can get them I think the TTSX would be the preferable bullet of the two 300gr Barnes in your .458 B&M SA.

Ah...I almost forgot, "What COAL do you load your .458 B&M SA to?"

Dan it sounds like the shop's been very busy. What's on the hunting menu in Idaho?

Guys:

I would like to make a suggestion. This thread has gotten so long, it has become really hard to follow. BBW #13, CEB, Carnivores, Raptors, Switcheroos and there is no telling what will pop up next. There are a number of guys that post here everyday but if you only log in once or twice a week, it's hard to keep up. Maybe we should start a new thread for each particular bullet and post the hunting results on RIP's anecdote page. Start each new thread with a description of each of the bullets. What do you think?

Thanks for the update Dan! Seems things are going great! What do you think about a 180 grain as well as a 225 grain 358 raptor? Exciting news all. I think the lever raptors will do well 30, 348, 35, 405, 444 and 45 if they all get made.
Hypothesis.
Part of the inherent accuracy of the raptors is not only the tight tolerances, band design and placement but the rear bore rider design. Most bore riders have bands going to the base but there is little contact with the barrel once the center bands have exited and the rear bore rider stays true as it leaves without much interference with lands or groves. Also with a boat tail and no rear band there is less turbulence made as the bullet flies. Any thought about this?

Michael
I'm thinking with top loads and nominal barrel length the 30-30 with the flat point should go close to 40" of penetration. Talk about a leverevolution!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys:

I would like to make a suggestion. This thread has gotten so long, it has become really hard to follow. BBW #13, CEB, Carnivores, Raptors, Switcheroos and there is no telling what will pop up next. There are a number of guys that post here everyday but if you only log in once or twice a week, it's hard to keep up. Maybe we should start a new thread for each particular bullet and post the hunting results on RIP's anecdote page. Start each new thread with a description of each of the bullets. What do you think?

Not ignoring you Dave. I think its Michael's call.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
It might be stable with a smooth bore as a flat point.

I shoot flat points from my smooth bore, 1 1/2" bore cannon, and they seem stable out to 300 yds.

Keith

Dang...I didn't think pigs got that big!

Jim, I have a dream of hog hunting with the 1 1/2" bore. My load for it would be 72-.50cal RBs over 2 1/2oz of black. However, getting hogs in front of the cannon, and in range, and in a timely manner. Not to mention, bunched close enough for the pattern to cover, Is neigh unto immpossible. Also, the gun weighs in at 256lbs.

Keith

Now back to the CEBs

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
It might be stable with a smooth bore as a flat point.

I shoot flat points from my smooth bore, 1 1/2" bore cannon, and they seem stable out to 300 yds.

Keith

Dang...I didn't think pigs got that big!

Jim, I have a dream of hog hunting with the 1 1/2" bore. My load for it would be 72-.50cal RBs over 2 1/2oz of black. However, getting hogs in front of the cannon, and in range, and in a timely manner. Not to mention, bunched close enough for the pattern to cover, Is neigh unto immpossible. Also, the gun weighs in at 256lbs.

Keith

Now back to the CEBs

Feeders man Feeders.

SSR

Y'all:
Dan is going after elk and wolf in Idaho.

Dan,
Great to hear of the Raptor patent.
I shall look first to CEB for all my bullet needs.
Gun season for deer in KY is still a month off,
but I have the CEB .395/240-grainer ready to go 3250 fps after deer ... and a 40-cal muzzleloader shooting .395 round ball from a flintlock for muzzleloader season.


Dave Bush has some good ideas:

Volume 2 of the _Encyclopedia of Terminal Ballistics_:

Call it "Advanced Terminal Ballistics: Beyond Fundamental Science with Cutting Edge Bullets"

Those 30-30s look like 450/400 cases loaded with those raptors lol

Capo

I have only just formed my .458 B&M SA brass and still need to fireform it. I went out today and bought some 'cheap' Hornady 350grainers to do the fireforming with so as not to waste all my Non-Coms and TSX bullets for this task.

In answer to your question regarding COAL, it depends on the throat depth of my rifle. My rifles is built on a Remington Model 7 (the only reason Michael would tolerate this Remington heresy is because I'm such a good guy and asked really nicely!). The Model 7 has a magazine internal length of 2.834", so my max COAL will be around 2.795", but possibly shorter. I will measure the throat depth and make up dummy masters very shortly for both the 300grn TSX and the 295grn Non-Con and will then let you know. There's a photo of my rifle on Michael's website under the 'Other Rifles / Cartridges' heading.

MFS

quote:

While I'm griping about the otherwise very good Barnes product line, what are they doing going back to round nose solids? Is it just so that they can claim to release 'new' products? As we all know Mchael has shown that flat points are far superior for penetration. You'd think that they worked this out too, since they went to flat points when they did.

MFS

Accountants making decisions because flat nose solids might not feed in some "Two Nickel" cheap ass rifles! Has nothing to do with performance!

quote:

Are you going to make a Carnivore bullet in .458 cal short and light enough to fit into my little .458 B&M SA? When I eventually take it out after Grrzzly Baars, I want to know that I have the most devastating projectile available to me (without going to HE).

You see the thing with the "Carnivore" is that it needs to be the longest or a long bullet for caliber. Several reasons for that, but we want that deep cavity for the longer heavier blades to do lot's of ripping, tearing of vital tissues. We need a good remaining bullet to continue to penetrate, destroying even more tissue, and in the process the bigger bullet remaining ensures the exploding of the blades at lower impact velocities. For now I told Dan I thought we need to work with the long bullets for caliber for these reasons. Later after the Carnivore is established and tested in the big bores, then maybe we can do some lighter ones to see how it works. But the 295 is too light, would not be nothing left of the remaining bullet I fear!

Taking that little 295 BBW#13 NonCon to a deeper cavity would not leave much remaining bullet left, and be less penetration. For now, that 295 BBW#13 NonCon will more than do the job on the bear, no worries, and inflict plenty of trauma in the process, still giving lot's of penetration!


Sounds like Smitty is going to keep us busy for the next few weeks! Whew! OK, Monday at the latest I have to go and see if I can get some test medium, I have only enough for 1 more box, and that won't do much! Need another 2000 lbs to get through this test work, along with what I have scheduled anyway!

quote:

Michael
I'm thinking with top loads and nominal barrel length the 30-30 with the flat point should go close to 40" of penetration. Talk about a leverevolution!

Boomy, I concur greatly. The 130 Raptor is about a perfect 30/30 bullet! Amazing this little bullet is excellent from the biggest meanest 30s, right on down to 30/30! Does not matter the cartridge. Wow, how about that, it's really about the "Bullet" eh? I know of no other bullet that will have the versatility of the Raptor! Solid, flat nose NonCon, pointy BC tips, the damn thing is universal it seems with one big factor--It actually works as Universal. Most things that are "Universal" are not good for any one thing at all--The Raptor is not that, it can do it all, with superior performance in all! Amazing!



Keith and Jim, I can tell you right now, I am going to behave myself around Keith! That rascal has a dream of toting around a 256 lb gun to shoot pigs with, that means he and I are going to be buddies! Anyone can do that, I ain't about to piss off!


Dave Bush, You do in fact have a good point, as you normally do. The mighty terminal thread seems it will grow, has grown incredibly. It is a beast to reckon with, no doubt. However, it is the "One" place to find it, when in need. The one place, to keep up with. The one place where most of the big bore performance is posted, field or lab. So one does not have to look and find a separate thread on a particular bullet, that might most likely fall to page 2-5 within a week, and possibly missed altogether by someone out a week or two, and not even realize it. At least, even thought the terminal thread is immense, it remains on Page one Of Big bores, easy to find, and you can just blow through the pages you missed while absent. Some of which is just some of us BS, but you are not likely to miss anything important going on. I thought the same thing some 150 pages ago, but here we are. I think this thread has remained on page One from the beginning. With these things in mind, I rather keep all the work consolidated as much as possible.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by MeplatFS:
In answer to your question regarding COAL, it depends on the throat depth of my rifle. My rifles is built on a Remington Model 7 (the only reason Michael would tolerate this Remington heresy is because I'm such a good guy and asked really nicely!). The Model 7 has a magazine internal length of 2.834", so my max COAL will be around 2.795", but possibly shorter. I will measure the throat depth and make up dummy masters very shortly for both the 300grn TSX and the 295grn Non-Con and will then let you know. There's a photo of my rifle on Michael's website under the 'Other Rifles / Cartridges' heading.

MFS

I did have a small "Hell Fit" over this, but MFS keep up the "Begging" lol, until I relented! HEH.....

This was actually the first 458 BM SA I put my hands on. So when it came to me, I made some brass, and took the little gun to the range. I actually put it to work, pretty hard! Snatching hell out the bolt, making it work for a living, and it gave ZERO issues. I had to work close, as it had NO SIGHTS at all, so just pointing the barrel in the right place! HEH.... But it did work like a charm. I can't remember what I was shooting however.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys:

I would like to make a suggestion. This thread has gotten so long, it has become really hard to follow. BBW #13, CEB, Carnivores, Raptors, Switcheroos and there is no telling what will pop up next. There are a number of guys that post here everyday but if you only log in once or twice a week, it's hard to keep up. Maybe we should start a new thread for each particular bullet and post the hunting results on RIP's anecdote page. Start each new thread with a description of each of the bullets. What do you think?

Dave,

I keep a small chart to keep track of where things are. For CEBs, we're locked in on the #13 nose shape for solids, noncons and carnivors. Put a solid and noncon together and you get the Raptor. Put a tip on the noncon or Raptor and you get the long ranger .

Bullet weights vary as performance is sought in various shell/caliber combinations.

Michael tests at various velocities to establish the performance envelop.

For there on out, it's driven by rifle design imposed requirements; doubles, bolts and lever actions.

There's a lot of what ifs suggested and some are tried but when CEB something gets into production, the designs are fairly stable. However, the designs do vary and more knowledge becomes available. The spacing between the drive bands and the nose for instance. Occasionally there's a bonus prize as the added benefit of the #13 shape to reduce base drag to the "other end" of however you load a Raptor.

This is the way of science. Don't ever believe otherwise. Science is messy with lots of false starts, blind alleys and an occasional breakthrough followed by lots of development.

Someone will come along, nicely organize the history and write it up. When that happens, it will appear that the answers were known all along and the process was all straight forward. Science never happens that way.

Jim,
We are busy with R & D right now with new bullets including the Raptors and hopefully it will pay off in the future as far as making money goes. Gotta plant the seed before you reap the harvest if your not dead before harvest time.

Rip
Wolf, deer, and elk in that order. Gotta get rid of some of those wolfs to get the elk population going the other direction. I would almost feel bad about shooting one of the few elk left where we hunt. Now deer on the other hand are plentiful and much easier to put on your back than an elk.

Boomy,
Your spot on with your thoughts about accuracy. We have tightened the bore rider dimensions of the small bore Raptors on both ends to keep them aligned better at bullet exit since they do not have the rear band. Since bore dimensions are more consistant on the .338 and under calibers that will work well. We may have an issue with some of the bigger bore Raptors since there are more inconsistant bore sizes in some rifles. That will allow the bullet to possibly kick slightly when the bullet exits the barrel. It may not be enough to cause significient accuracy degradation but we may want to consider spacing the bands further apart to minimize the distance the bullet travels without guidance at the end of the barrel. This unfortunately has an adverse affect on penetration of the solid end since we know the long nose penetrates much better. ESP Raptors are a system bullet and will never replace the DGBR bullets for a specific mission. They are still going to penetrate more than deep enough to kill anything even if we do space the bands apart further but for deepest penetration you know which bullet is better. Not to mention the solids are a lot less expensive.
I will be thinking about this next week and welcome everyone's comments about this issue. Of course Michael and I will choose the safest bore size for the big bore calibers but more thought needs to be put in to the band spacing.

Dave
Your are correct about the length of this thread. I find myself speed reading a lot.


smitty@cuttingedgebullets.com

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys:

I would like to make a suggestion. This thread has gotten so long, it has become really hard to follow. BBW #13, CEB, Carnivores, Raptors, Switcheroos and there is no telling what will pop up next. There are a number of guys that post here everyday but if you only log in once or twice a week, it's hard to keep up. Maybe we should start a new thread for each particular bullet and post the hunting results on RIP's anecdote page. Start each new thread with a description of each of the bullets. What do you think?

Dave,

I keep a small chart to keep track of where things are. For CEBs, we're locked in on the #13 nose shape for solids, noncons and carnivors. Put a solid and noncon together and you get the Raptor. Put a tip on the noncon or Raptor and you get the long ranger .

Bullet weights vary as performance is sought in various shell/caliber combinations.

Michael tests at various velocities to establish the performance envelop.

For there on out, it's driven by rifle design imposed requirements; doubles, bolts and lever actions.

There's a lot of what ifs suggested and some are tried but when CEB something gets into production, the designs are fairly stable. However, the designs do vary and more knowledge becomes available. The spacing between the drive bands and the nose for instance. Occasionally there's a bonus prize as the added benefit of the #13 shape to reduce base drag to the "other end" of however you load a Raptor.

This is the way of science. Don't ever believe otherwise. Science is messy with lots of false starts, blind alleys and an occasional breakthrough followed by lots of development.

Someone will come along, nicely organize the history and write it up. When that happens, it will appear that the answers were known all along and the process was all straight forward. Science never happens that way.

IBT:

Thanks. Your first paragraph was a big help, BBW13, noncons, carnivores, and raptors (aka switch point). I am going to make a list and tape it to my computer.

DocM, SRose et al,

WOW is all I can say!

Saeed Ansari

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Keith and Jim, I can tell you right now, I am going to behave myself around Keith! That rascal has a dream of toting around a 256 lb gun to shoot pigs with, that means he and I are going to be buddies! Anyone can do that, I ain't about to piss off!

Michael

Michael, when I built it, I was smart enough to put WHEELS on it.

Keith

Keith

HEH HEH..... Well somehow I have in my mind a big rascal pulling this thing like a mule now! All hooked up in a harness and such! Whew, still more than I can bear in that Texas heat! LOL

Hey, ok, again, what is the bullet you are shooting in that thing?

You know that thing we were talking about the other day? Coming! Had a talk, it's coming!

Michael

Thanks for confirming this. I'm glad to know I'm not crazy

quote:

Originally posted by smitty338:

Boomy,
Your spot on with your thoughts about accuracy. We have tightened the bore rider dimensions of the small bore Raptors on both ends to keep them aligned better at bullet exit since they do not have the rear band. Since bore dimensions are more consistant on the .338 and under calibers that will work well. We may have an issue with some of the bigger bore Raptors since there are more inconsistant bore sizes in some rifles. That will allow the bullet to possibly kick slightly when the bullet exits the barrel. It may not be enough to cause significient accuracy degradation but we may want to consider spacing the bands further apart to minimize the distance the bullet travels without guidance at the end of the barrel. This unfortunately has an adverse affect on penetration of the solid end since we know the long nose penetrates much better. ESP Raptors are a system bullet and will never replace the DGBR bullets for a specific mission. They are still going to penetrate more than deep enough to kill anything even if we do space the bands apart further but for deepest penetration you know which bullet is better. Not to mention the solids are a lot less expensive.
I will be thinking about this next week and welcome everyone's comments about this issue. Of course Michael and I will choose the safest bore size for the big bore calibers but more thought needs to be put in to the band spacing.

Dave
Your are correct about the length of this thread. I find myself speed reading a lot.


smitty@cuttingedgebullets.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by boom stick:
Thanks for confirming this. I'm glad to know I'm not crazy

[QUOTE]

Boomy,

IMO you're taking an awful lot for granted when you present this as evidence that you are not crazy.

quote:

Originally posted by smitty338:
we may want to consider spacing the bands further apart to minimize the distance the bullet travels without guidance at the end of the barrel.
smitty@cuttingedgebullets.com

Smitty,

I need alittle help here.

All LR bullets of which I am aware have a boat tail, which means there is a distance the bullet travels without guidance at the end of the barrel.

Why does the Raptor have a concern in this aspect?

Thanks

I'm crazy
Just in the ways I want to be

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by boom stick:
Thanks for confirming this. I'm glad to know I'm not crazy

[QUOTE]

Boomy,

IMO you're taking an awful lot for granted when you present this as evidence that you are not crazy.

quote:

We may have an issue with some of the bigger bore Raptors since there are more inconsistent bore sizes in some rifles. That will allow the bullet to possibly kick slightly when the bullet exits the barrel. It may not be enough to cause significant accuracy degradation but we may want to consider spacing the bands further apart to minimize the distance the bullet travels without guidance at the end of the barrel. This unfortunately has an adverse effect on penetration of the solid end since we know the long nose penetrates much better. ESP Raptors are a system bullet and will never replace the DGBR bullets for a specific mission. They are still going to penetrate more than deep enough to kill anything even if we do space the bands apart further but for deepest penetration you know which bullet is better. Not to mention the solids are a lot less expensive.
I will be thinking about this next week and welcome everyone's comments about this issue. Of course Michael and I will choose the safest bore size for the big bore calibers but more thought needs to be put in to the band spacing.

I love it, Dan is actually asking for peanut gallery comments!

Ok…ok… here goes.

BB test caliber:
.458 Caliber… Michael has a truck load of rifles in this caliber and it likely will reach the largest audience.

Banding:
3-Bands: Recommend using the NE banding width...at least for initial testing.
Alternative: Use the narrower Bolt banding and just add a 4th band for stability purposes.

Yep that’s it for now.

PS… Have a good time on your hunt – get multiple wolf tags if you can and fill them all!

I will be in the camp of if it ain't broke don't fix it camp.
Yes I am in favor of more testing and like capos suggestion.
Big bores can be more forgiving and accurate due to mass since they are less influenced on external forces.
With that in mind and that most of these bullets would be medium and small bore bullets testing should be done on say the 30 or 338 bullets at long range say 300 yards. I'm thinking that if they are working extremely well accuracy wise the focus should be on the why or how can we improve it from what we learned to be even better. The wider bands bay be the same or better but I think the limited rifling engagement has done this bullet well. Adding bands will increase drag, the force it takes to push through the barrel raising potential initial pressures. Testing will be fun and I hope informative.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Keith

HEH HEH..... Well somehow I have in my mind a big rascal pulling this thing like a mule now! All hooked up in a harness and such! Whew, still more than I can bear in that Texas heat! LOL If I were to tow it, it would be with my 4 wheeler.

Hey, ok, again, what is the bullet you are shooting in that thing? A 1 lb 12 oz FP, cast from WW.

You know that thing we were talking about the other day? Coming! Had a talk, it's coming!

Michael

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by MeplatFS:
In answer to your question regarding COAL, it depends on the throat depth of my rifle. My rifle is built on a Remington Model 7 (the only reason Michael would tolerate this Remington heresy is because I'm such a good guy and asked really nicely!). The Model 7 has a magazine internal length of 2.834", so my max COAL will be around 2.795", but possibly shorter. I will measure the throat depth and make up dummy masters very shortly for both the 300grn TSX and the 295grn Non-Con and will then let you know. There's a photo of my rifle on Michael's website under the 'Other Rifles / Cartridges' heading.

MFS

MFS,
I remember Michael’s posting about your little M7 Remington…nice short compact gun. I just measured one of my two .300 RSAUM M77 SA SS Rugers and it has an internal magazine length of 2.890”…not much more than you have but every bit helps. I’m still pondering converting one of my two Rugers to .458 B&M SA but I need to finish the two rifles being built right now and at least use them before I build another.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I will be in the camp of if it ain't broke don't fix it camp.

Sounds to me that the evil brother has kidnapped the real boomy and taken his place. This isn't the Boomy of "I love to generate alternatives" or "The more alternatives the better" or "I wonder how al would work".

We need to get a search and rescue party together to find and restore the real Boomy to his rightful place!

Lol
Ok
I said lets try the other bands.
But in a way to reverse engineer the reason for the inherent accuracy.

How about this as an idea for some increased penetration for the Non-Cons.

We have established that the right combination of meplat size and ogive angle provide the best penetration (i.e. as per BBW#13 solids).

However, when the #13 Non-Con shears its petals, it no longer has that ideal shape and therefore is not going to penetrate as far as it could compared to a correctly shaped bullet with weight eqivalent to the rear section of the Non-Con.

That being the case, why can't we design the bullet so that when the petals shear, the remaining section's nose shape more closely approximates the #13 Nose shape? This could perhaps be achieved by a deeper and angled undercut, so that when the petals shear, there remains an angled nose, rather than a full calibre flat nose.

What say you?

MFS