Sam and Dave,

Thank you for the good words.

Dave, on the 416 RIGBY loads,
the manuals all list loads that are way under capacity. It has to do with tradition. In order to see the true capacity of the Rigby look at the Weatherby loads. The 416 Rigby has a water capacity that is about 4 grains less than the 416 Weatherby. Theoretically, that means that the 416 Weatherby would have a less than 25fps advantage.

So 2800 fps with a 350 grain TSX is quite conservative in the true 416 Rigby potential.

Yes, 2800-2875 fps definitely contributes to petal shearing at close ranges and/or with heavy bone. But it makes the Rigby an all-around antelope gun. I didn't report that a couple of the readings went up to 2900 fps when sighting in in one of the rifles. The rifle was happy, I was happy.

One caveat: I was just cleaning the rifles and they had pretty, copper-orange streaks at the muzzle on a couple of the lands. Make sure you have some KG-12. It is wonderful stuff and totally removes any copper.

416Tanzan,
Jolly good show old man! Congrats to you and son, and thanks for sharing.
Yes, the Barnes TSX .416/350-grainer at +2800 fps MV is indeed a NonCon.
You have a very versatile rig there for walk about!

Once upon a time I used the old Barnes .416/350-grain FB X-Bullet at 2700 fps MV to take water buffalo at 50 yards and fallow deer at 342 yards,
in a Ruger No. 1 .416 Rigby.
Versatile!

quote:

Looks like at high velocity impacts the barnes wants to be a noncon. Or it tries anyway.

Lol

Latest update

It has been hard to do any testing as of late due to pesky hunting season, but I was able to play a little. Here is a table of my results:


.224 DGBR BBW#13 55 grains (223 WSSM)
As reported earlier, I tried these in my 22.250 and the slow 1:14 twist of that rifle did not like these long heavy bullets. They were key holing as they were not stabilizing in the slow twist. The only faster twist center fire 22 caliber rifle I have is my 223 WSSM. This was depressing to me as this rifle has been a real turd. It is a Winchester Model 70 “super shadow” and honestly it is the cheapest flimsiest rifle in my safe. I got a killer deal on it along with some ammo, scope, bipod, but have been disappointed in its quality and performance. To give you an idea, shooting 55 grain Winchester grey box factory loads, I was getting an average of 2.3 inch groups at 100 yards. Velocities around 3,850 FPS. I could go on with how poor this rifle is, but I won’t. The good news is that it has a 1:10 twist so I figured it would be able to stabilize the 55 gain bullets. It did indeed. I shot four shot groups, each with a different powder charge, and my average group size was 1.02 inches. Velocities ranged from 3,350 to 3,584 and no signs of pressure which means I can load them up a bit more. I ordered some more of these bullets as it now looks like I have a bullet that will allow me to get this poorly made rifle to under one MOA.

.338 DGBR-HP D EXP1l Brass NonCon BBW#13 225 Grain (338 Winchester Magnum)
Dan at Cutting Edge Bullets let me test out some 338 Caliber BBW#13’s that they ran a batch of. Bad news is, it looks like this bullet will no longer be made. Good news is, it shot well, and they are going to replace it with their Raptor line. I’ll be lined up to buy some when they come on line!

I want to be able to shoot these on my upcoming elk hunt next week and I only had 50 bullets to play with, so I worked 20 shells to test with in my 338 Win Mag. This is a Weatherby Vanguard, and historically I have been getting 2 inch groups at 100 yards with this rifle using Barnes TSX bullets. Copper fouling has been a real issue with this rifle using barnes – more so that with other rifles. At any rate, I loaded up 20 shells using H 4831SC with powder charges between 69 and 72 grains. Groups at 100 yards averaged at 1.3 inches! I was getting velocities in the 2575 to 2630 fps range with no signs of pressure at this time.

I came back to the range with some more shells loaded with the 72 grain charge. I zeroed the rifle at 200 yards, and checked POI at 100 and 300 yards. I was 2.8 inches high at 100 yards, and 16 inches low at 300 yards. I look forward very much to trying out the 338 Raptors with the boat tail and the tips to see what that does to the trajectory. I am expecting to see the longer range drop to be more in the 6 inch range rather than 16.

In general, here is what I am seeing with the Cutting Edge BBW#13 Bullets:
1. I have tried these bullets out in 4 different calibers and 5 different rifles. (450 Dakota/375 HH/338 WM/22.250 Remington/223 WSSM). With the exception of the 22.250 who’s twist was too slow to stabilize the long heavy bullet, Every Rifle I have used has seen group sizes at 100 yards be significantly improved over other bullets. I am seeing 40 to60% reduction in group size-this is SIGNIFICANT for me-turning poorly shooting rifles into viable hunting rifles.
2. The damage inflicted by the BBW#13 is massive. While I was only shooting a pronghorn and using a 375 HH, the damage done was far and above what I would have expected from any other bullet.
3. The precision of these bullets is impressive. Length and weight measurements I have taken show a remarkable consistency in manufacturing. This of course translates into accuracy, and ease of loading.
4. Non tipped CEB bullets require significant compensation for drop beyond about 250 yards. This is not an issue if one knows this prior to taking longer range shots. I look forward to playing with the tipped rounds to see what impact this has.
5. Using the 457 caliber bullets in my 450 Dakota did not go well during the loading process as the undersized bullet and compressed powder charges that I am using. I plan to try the .458 caliber bullets and see how they load. I have high expectations.
Next steps for me:
1. Hopefully I will be able to kill an Elk with the .338 WM shells I loaded next week. If so, I’ll report back my findings.
2. I placed an order yesterday for more bullets. I ordered the .308 Raptors, more .224 HP’s and some of the .458 caliber Solids and HP’s. I plan to develop a load with the 308’s in my 300 WM, and develop a load for the .458 solid/HP combo that provides a tight group, and identical Point of Impact at 100 yards.
3. This spring/summer I want to set up some kind of penetration comparison contraption like Michael has for some testing on the 450 Dakota. I need to prove to myself that I can get equivalent or better penetration with a lighter Non-Con/solid combo than I get with a heavier expander/solid combo like a Woodleigh Hydrostatic Solid/Swift A-frame. I am having a hard time with this concept, and since all my relatives come from Missouri, I’ll need to see it to believe it!

Thanks Dan and Michael and the rest of the folks here for inspiring and developing such innovative bullets!!

BTW, here is another 4 shot group from my 375 HH with the BBW#13 HP NonCons

RobH,

Great report. As far as that light Winchester I have a Ultimate Shadow in 25 WSSM and it is one of my favorite rifles. Shoots fantastic. I've been thinking of getting one in 223WSSM just for shooting the non cons. Great kids rifle and will smoke a deer. I have a Stealth in 223 WSSM and even with soft points it will burn right through my steel rifle targets at 100 yards. A 308 175 MK will just knock the paint off. Velocity is everything. I think you will like the Raptor bullet a lot.

I'm curious to see the 22 Raptors accuracy report

As an aside, read “The Six Frigates”. You’ll find the first use of the saying, I'm from Missouri, by an elected federal official from Missouri.

What is needed now for the #13 CEB bullets, solids, noncons, Carnivores and Raptors to become known is for a whole lot of folks from Missouri to do their own testing, including field testing. That is part of the scientific method, the results of an experiment must be independently reproducible.

Usually these folks from Missouri are trend setters; others respect what the Missourians do and mimic their behavior.

One thing that CEB brought to this quest that may not be immediately apparent is the absolutely accurate execution of the #13 concept in metal. That means that variability of the bullet construction, espically the dimensions, is controlled in the experiment. This control is a requirement of any scientific effort – vary one thing at a time, all other variables than design must be controlled. Therefore any difference in results is due to the variables in design.

While I am a Seattle native, I come from proud stubborn Missouri roots, I even know how to properly pronounce Missouri. (Muh-Zur-A)

I instantly noted the consistency of the bullet construction when I was loading my first batch of them. the seating was so precise that it prompted me to measure the length and weigh them. Very high tolerances.

My M70 Shadow was such a poor shooter with the factory ammo that I wrote it off. It felt cheap to hold, the barrel is paper thin, and the trigger is the worst factory trigger I have pulled. Now that I have the CEB bullets, I think it may become a good shooter and I might even look at replacing the trigger. It is nice and light, and those little 223 WSSM cartridges sure are interesting looking. I did find that a good 20-25% of the factory brass was "burned through" on the shoulders after a single firing and had to be discarded. either I had a bad batch of brass, or the forming process puts a lot of stress and folds into the shoulders making the brass fail after one firing.

Rob H,

Don't replace that model 70 trigger. If it is the non MOA trigger its the best trigger made for hunting. It is also the most durable and simplest trigger. Take it to someone that knows how to adjust it and you will love it. Properly fitted and adusted it will break like glass and at 3 lbs or less.

Sam

Hey Guys

Busy today. Rob, another excellent report, while not terminals, they have to be accurate to go terminal and do the work eh? Yes. Dan was extremely excited about the Raptor. Seems he also took the 308 Raptors for a ride in a 300 WSM that would not shoot anything. Same story as yours, just would not shoot, had been written off, and now it's a 1/2 MOA rifle with the Raptors. Nathan, Dans son, had a 308 FW same story, now it's a shooter with the Raptors.

Hey, I have a Win M70 Ultimate 25 and 223 WSSM. Kinda partial to the 25, not sure what the hell for, rats and such I reckon. But I have a buddy here that has a 223 WSSM. I have the BBW#13 NonCons, 55 grs. Loaded a normal load I had worked with, and tested them in his rifle, 3700 fps. No pressures, no issues at all. In fact, could take that velocity up. It's a 22 inch barrel as well. Anyway, he called late one evening, little after 7 pm. Shot a deer earlier, 150 yds I think he said, blew a 2 inch hole through and through, never took a step, dropped so quickly his legs tangled in his antlers, had to untie his legs from the antlers to load him up! HEH.... I reported this probably page 198 or something. Week or so ago. Seems that little rat cartridge can do something with the right bullet!

How do we enhance the capabilities of a cartridge? Rifle? With the Bullet! That's how! Not with some magic Powder that drives conventional bullets faster, now we call our standard cartridges "magnums" cause they go faster! Hmmmmm? Seems some bullets don't need to go faster. In fact, sometimes velocity is not your friend! We enhance our success with the Bullet we choose for the given mission, not by speed, or slow, or anything else, the damned bullet does the work. Seems we now have a bullet that we can run fast, near any reasonable speed, now speed can enhance, but only because of the bullet. Same damned bullets work mighty fine way down low velocity as well! How about that! Now that's real Magic!

Unfortunately I am going to be out of town for a couple of days! All test work on hold, most likely until the first of the week. Sorry!

Michael

For Rob H and the 338WM tests--

If you use a powder a little faster than H4831SC you will find that the 338WM will do velocities from 2750-2850 fps with 225 grain bullets. Tinkering/testing will find the velocity that is most stable/accurate within the barrel harmonics of your rifle. For starters, H4350 is rated well for temperature tolerance, Rel-17 is rated well for volume density and velocity. As for H4831, it might best be used with 300 grain bullets in 338WM, but such weight (and SecDens) is unnecessary and not particularly useful with new bullet technology for anything except maybe elephant/hippo, and you'll be carrying something much heavier for those.

And Michael-- you'll need to check in and see what page 200 will look like! This thread still has a lot of testing and issues to work out and confirm. Blessings on your trip.

RobH

Concerning 338. The new Raptor will also be 225 grs, which was a bit heavy I thought to begin with, length of bullet, tipped, blah blah. Wait and see how that works. I am a 338 fan, have all sorts of 338s. With the invent of the 9.3 B&M, that replaces my use of 338 and 358 altogether. But I have lot's of 338 data. RL 19 and IMR 4350 being some top loads with the 225s in the past. Running velocity of 2750 to 2800 depending on the rifle and barrel length.

Strange the .457s won't tighten up in your 450? At any rate Dan made some 500s, and the 450s are great. Both those are .458. That 450 will run 450s at very high velocity, and of course will do anything you ask of it, matched with the 420 NonCon, both of which I have used on buffalo and hippo with great success at modest velocity in the 458 B&M. You should be good to go on any adventure with those.

Please do some independent testing for us! That would be great. I think you and I need to have a little "Side Bet" on the NonCon versus other things! HEH HEH......... I know what I will be betting on!

Catch you guys in a couple of days, leaving mid morning.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:


And Michael-- you'll need to check in and see what page 200 will look like! This thread still has a lot of testing and issues to work out and confirm. Blessings on your trip.

Tanz

If possible I will check and see page 200! For sure. I probably won't be able to check until Saturday morning however.

Thanks!
Michael

quote:

Any ideas on what to do next?]

Any ideas on how to get Flatnosed solids to feed in a CZ 416Rigby?

Any warnings on what not to do? Potential pitfalls?

Put one up the spout and make the first shot count. You can put RNs in the mag.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Put one up the spout and make the first shot count. You can put RNs in the mag.

OK, a straight first shot--that should work on ele's. Then throw knuckleballs. (For those outside the US: a knuckleball is a baseball pitch whose curve trajectory and direction is somewhat unpredictable.)

There are some people on this thread who have some experience getting these bolt actions to work. I would like to get the CZ's to work so that we can use expanding/non-con for first shot with solids as backup. The all-copper bullets are so good that some people now consider using TSX bullets for both first shot and followup. But I would prefer choosing my options rather than being forced because the solids don't feed.

now, of course, if we'd stop testing themin junkie model 70s


MM just has a stroke!

Or at least

Mr. Michael458,

The rumor mill has it that a top secret project is underway, at an undisclosed location down South, that a 6.5mm B&M or some variation is being developed Would you care to expatiate regarding this breech in security?

Bike Rider

Update from the CEB website

Since there are many people asking about different caliber Raptors we are going to expand the line up to at least .510 caliber bullets. Since all the initial Raptors are made to magazine feed in all rifles they will be light for caliber. Not to mention, there is no need for heavy weight Raptors since even the light weight bullets will penetrate deeper than any bullet on the market plus deliver devestating terminal performance never before seen in any bullet. Since these bullets were designed to magazine feed with the tips installed they do take up case capacity and in many cases will require a handloader to choose a faster burning powder to get their velocities up especially in common cartridges like .308 Winchester, 30-06, 270 Win. etc. For example, in a .308 WInchester Reloader 7 is a good choice for loading the 130gr Raptor to obtain a velocity of 3000fps+. The first Raptors will be available in the following calibers and weights:

.338-225gr, .308-130gr, 7mm-115 and 135gr, .277-110gr, 6.5mm-110gr, 6mm-65gr, .257-80gr, .224-55gr and 40gr. Next up will be 9.3mm-230gr, .375-230gr, .358-200gr, .410-325gr, .416-300gr, .458-400gr and 350gr, .474-400gr, .500-450gr and 350gr, .510-500gr. The big bore caliber weights are not set in stone yet and subject to change. All stated weights do not include the add on Talon. Depending on the caliber, a Talon tip will add 1 to 10 grains of weight.

Also worth mentioning there is a patent pending on the ESP Raptor bullets.

One interesting thing is the 325 grain .410 bullet. Without the tip this will make the 405 Win a new creature. Lion medicine and more! The 375 Raptor should be a flat shooting devestating round at 3,000 fps in a HH or Ruger and the 9,3 Raptor 9,3x62 at about 2,500.
I'd like to see the 25 caliber go up to 85 grains to become legal deer/elk hunting weight in more states. I also think a 165 grain 338 would be great for the 338 Federal and 338 Marlin Express ect. Also note that the Raptor will be patented to protect the intellectual property and great investment done by CEB. Great job CEB!

Thanks 416Tanzan for your detailed post about your latest outing. I enjoy your posts and not just on hunting but on your love of the Rigby also so keep them coming. I admit I am extremely jealous of all the big game hunting you and your son get to do together. That is something special not many families get to enjoy and you obviously do not take it for granted.

HOLY CHIT!!! did you ever get that cruiser stuck. I have had a few bad off road moments but that was a wicked hole. The picture of the tracker under the tire brought back an odd memory. Here in Alabama we have a lot of sink holes. I was throwing a football with my cousin in his front yard and when he landed from catching the ball he broke the top of a sinkhole and fell through. He went in deep enough that only his eyes and top of head were showing. He started screaming that he was going to fall all the way to hell and went into a hysterical panic. We were laughing so hard we could not pull him out. You know how teenagers are. Anyway he wasn't hurt and now laughs about it.

I hope you get that CZ squared away because I have always been a target shooter and sometimes get anal about having to get sub-moa groups. I understand your frustration and agree the CZ is capable of superb groups....and they do not take a lot of work to get there. Best of luck with those rifles.

Thank you, Sid.

I guess my son and I do consider the handloaded 416Rigby to be about the ultimate "one rifle" in Africa. Something like the 338WM and 338RUM for USA/NA.

Outstanding line of ESP Raptors!
I especially like the 450-grain/.500-caliber, and the 500-grain/.510-caliber.

Will keep a lookout at:

www.cuttingedgebullets.com

I would like to request a 420-450 grain .510".

Basically, whatever the .500" uses should be put in the .510" with a max 5-10 grain increase over the .500" weight.

That 500-grain/.510 ESP Raptor will have a broader appeal to all 500 shooters: Jeffery, Nitro Express, A-Square, Mbogo.

But, indeed a lighter one would be great, after the current batch planned hatches.

A 450-grain /.510-cal certainly works well at 2654 fps MV, a reduced load in the 500 Mbogo, also capable of 2835 fps with same bullet.

Even if it is a copper GSC HV that did not open up on impact, it still broke a shoulder and pierced the heart, went to muscle in off-side shoulder:



Above is the first lunge of the cape buffalo, left shoulder broken. Hit at about 80 yards
He ran less than 50 yards and fell over dead.

A brass ESP Raptor will be even more dramatic.
The 500-grain/.510 would be perfect in the 500 Mbogo, which has case capacity to spare.
Maybe the lighter weight would be better in the 500 AR?

450-grain/.500 would be perfect in the 49-10(.500 Lapua).
From varmints to buffalo.

Can't wait to order some .500 and .510 caliber ESP Raptors, soon as they are ready.

The 500 grain .510 would have enough BC to still be useful in a 50 BMG. With a SD of about .270 that should whistle through any DG pretty good and do a lot of damage coming out of a 50 BMG at 3,300 FPS and not be too long for the huge cases like the 500 Jeffery. The Raptors do love velocity so bayberry a 400 and a 500 grain version.

Great buff, RIP.

And now a tribute to Michael:


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I just knew we would reach 200 by Halloween.
300 here we come. Hope we don't crash Saeeds server

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The 500 grain .510 would have enough BC to still be useful in a 50 BMG. With a SD of about .270 that should whistle through any DG pretty good and do a lot of damage coming out of a 50 BMG at 3,300 FPS and not be too long for the huge cases like the 500 Jeffery. The Raptors do love velocity so bayberry a 400 and a 500 grain version.

Does anyone hunt buffalo with a 50 BMG?

I'm sorry I worded my post poorly with a long run on sentence. I'll try to proof better. And "Bayberry" is supposed to be "Maybe". Damn auto correct function on the iPhone. Never post before coffee and just waking up from a late friday night of having fun lol. I am not advocating shooting DG with a 50 BMG but I'm sure some african warlord troops have. In a 50 BMG this could be an anti personel and anti material round to 1,000 yards is my guess. It's not sporting to use a 50 BMG on an elephant. A sporting round like the 500 Jeffery is what I would advocate.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Great buff, RIP.

And now a tribute to Michael:


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WOW----Thanks Tanz! Incredible how far we have come, and the things we have all accomplished together. Hats off to the entire crew, far too many to name them all, you know who you are.

Thank You.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
And now a tribute to Michael:


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Great work, Michael!

Keith

Congrat's! Knew you would hit 200.

About the only thread here with valuable information really.

About 8,000 posts! Probably could have a cliff notes version of 1,000 lol. That should get it down to a more readable 50 pages it's like the war and peace of bullet testing.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I'm sorry I worded my post poorly with a long run on sentence. I'll try to proof better. And "Bayberry" is supposed to be "Maybe". Damn auto correct function on the iPhone. Never post before coffee and just waking up from a late friday night of having fun lol. I am not advocating shooting DG with a 50 BMG but I'm sure some african warlord troops have. In a 50 BMG this could be an anti personel and anti material round to 1,000 yards is my guess. It's not sporting to use a 50 BMG on an elephant. A sporting round like the 500 Jeffery is what I would advocate.

I liked your first post fine.The 50BMG is just a name. Sporting in the elephants mind is a hairy naked guy with a pit trap. Anything better than that is for our sport.I'd use a 50BMG as soon as a 700nitro the same weight if it were allowed.

By the way when you mentioned bayberrying a bullet I was thinking it might be some new verb relating to a Ron Berry level of testing and experimentation now that would be a killer bullet.

Hey Boom Stick

I imageine that the Talon tip for the Raptors is easy to manufacture in its conical format with the straight sides, but has any consideration been given to making one wth a curved ogive?

This would maintain an BC advantage compared to the projectile without it, but would also reduce the bullet OAL slightly, allowing it to be seated forward within the magazine, creating more internal space in the case. As the Raptors are long for their weight to begin with, this would be an advantage.

Regards

MFS

That could add a bit more bullet weight but the tip design is to maximize BC. That's the design CEB decided on and is working great. Who knows, maybe worth testing to compare. That would alter the band placement and another can of worms to test ect. I think the current formula is working so great and according to design that messing with it might prove little but I'm a seeker of knowledge. It's funny how we came up with something that works so well but won't please everyone lol. Even with a .2 SD it is out penetrating bullets of about .3 SD and more damage.

Boom Stick

I was actually thinking of making the tip shorter (and thereby lighter), rather than heavier, and just giving it an ogive curve like a standard long range bullet. You don't see long range bullets with straight spire points, all have curved ogives.

Yes, I understand the implications of shortening the tip with respect to band placement. I also understand the shooting market's obsession with velocity and know that some will be turned away from bullets with reduced velocity (due to reduced powder space) even though that same bullet will actually achieve everything, if not more, than they want to achieve anyway. Sonme people just don't cope well with new concepts or changes to the existing paradigm.

Another question for you. Will the ESP Talon tips fit the Non-Cons of corresponding calibre? I just imported what must surely be some of the first (if not the first) Non-Con projectiles into Australia in calibres .500, .474, .458, and .416. Now the .295grn Non-Con in my .458 B&M Semi-Auto is seated well back, due to the short throat, leaving me extra space for a tip. (Suspect my .475 B&M Super Short will be the same, but am still awaiting dies and haven't measured yet). If I can fit a tip, then I damn well want one, 'cause you never know when a longer shot is going to present itself. If penetration is not affected then why wouldn't I fit tips to the bullet?

If they are in fact interchangeable, this raises more questions from me. 1) How long are the tps in .458 cal and .474 cal, and 2) will CEB sell tips on their own?

Possibilities, possibilities...

Regards

MeplatFS

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
now, of course, if we'd stop testing the min junkie model 70s


MM just has a stroke!

Trouble Maker!!!!!!!!! You did not think I was gonna let you get away with that! Or that I might miss it somehow! HEH.........

quote:

The rumor mill has it that a top secret project is underway, at an undisclosed location down South, that a 6.5mm B&M or some variation is being developed Big Grin Would you care to expatiate regarding this breech in security?

I cannot do such a thing! I would have to terminate you, then terminate myself! Not gonna happen!

quote:

The first Raptors will be available in the following calibers and weights:

.338-225gr, .308-130gr, 7mm-115 and 135gr, .277-110gr, 6.5mm-110gr, 6mm-65gr, .257-80gr, .224-55gr and 40gr. Next up will be 9.3mm-230gr, .375-230gr, .358-200gr, .410-325gr, .416-300gr, .458-400gr and 350gr, .474-400gr, .500-450gr and 350gr, .510-500gr. The big bore caliber weights are not set in stone yet and subject to change. All stated weights do not include the add on Talon. Depending on the caliber, a Talon tip will add 1 to 10 grains of weight.

Raptors! Coming this week I think. Some of the first runs in the small bores. It is going to be a busy few weeks ahead of us. I will most likely be working with these daily. Depending on my schedule, which should be somewhat flexible, and putting much priority on the Rapters, I will start at the bottom and work my way up in caliber. I intend to turn them, twist them, burn them, slow them down, beat them, break them, and do what I can here to put them thru hell before you get them! One caliber at a time.

Now some talk about having to change powders from your normal loads?? That may be true with some cartridges, I don't have lot's and lot's of small bore experience. But thus far, I have just loaded the Raptor with same loads I had on hand anyway, and they were fine. Maybe not optimum, I don't know. For instance in the 308, for the 130 Raptor I used the same load I had for a 150 Hornady, worked fine. For the 30/30, just picked a load out of the book, just fine. Like all the BBW#13s I have worked with, and that's all of them, they are not really particular about the load when it comes to accuracy for sure. In many cases, in particular some of the big bores, yes, when dropping to a lighter bullet, faster powder is likely to give optimum results, maybe it's the same with small bores as well. For many of these cartridges I will be working with, I won't be making too many changes in some of the data I have already. Some I don't have much of. In the .224 Raptors I don't think I ever shot a 40 gr bullet. I will be testing these in 223 Rem and 223 WSSM. Gives us a good range of velocity to work with, and I think a 40 gr Raptor at 4000 fps will be something to behold? I should be able to get close to that in the 223 WSSM. If there is an upper velocity for any BBW#13 type bullet, which is what the Raptor is on both ends, we should be able to find it here. We know there is an upper end with the solid for sure, remember the tests with the 62 BBW#13 getting up into 3500 +? Metal in the nose started moving around, I think we got optimum straight line at 3000-3200 fps or somewhere like that? Above that we had metal in the nose start taking a beating. Now with the NonCon end of the Raptor, we will find out what happens at high end velocity. Of course, personally with the NonCon end I am not so sure it matters, as destruction of tissue/medium, and trauma inflicted is going to be a lot, penetration thereafter will be interesting. We will see.

Many of the other Raptors I can put to the test as well such as the 338s and 358s, have several cartridges in those calibers from low end to high end.

.500 and .510??? Don't know yet, maybe a little heavy for those calibers to be honest? Will just have to see. In particular the .510s--I might like some feed back on with some of those cartridges, as to overall length for some of the magazines you use. What I have here is a 510 Wells in a big Ruger action. Jeffe, some feed back on the 500 AR magazine lengths might be helpful here? Depends on the rifle you are going in. Might need to go 450 or so to get best overall length??? I just don't know.

I am very sure that in some of the Raptors there will be some changes made before production. This is why we test before hand. Get it right. It won't have much to do with performance, terminal or accuracy. Mostly with getting the right length bullet, fit in most average magazines, and such as that I suspect. So some feedback here from you guys might be very helpful with various cartridges and rifles you have in given calibers. I have Winchesters, a few rugers, and a remington or two if I can find them and get the dust off of them? HEH.......

Meplat

Yes, the tips for Raptors will fit standard BBW#13 NonCons. So these will work dandy for you. Yes, you can get tips alone, and that should be easy to send to you, no issues I would think. The tips are long, most of the time, depending on your action, tipped bullets will not fit in the magazine, but will be the top load going in. On the big bore BBW#13 NonCons, designed for DG, long range being 50 yds, tips are not needed. The tips used would be to turn BBW#13 NonCons, into a bit longer range goat bullet! Or such. But not take away from the BBW#13 NonCon primary job, DG Bullet! Just to add versatility is what the tips are for.

Raptor, different mission--Do everything bullet-ESP, Enhanced System Projectile. In this capacity, the Raptor must be lighter for caliber, fitting in most magazines, with tip added. Even light for caliber, I suspect most all Raptors will out perform even the heaviest bullets for caliber in terminal performance. Penetration, equal or more, trauma, most likely more in every case.

In many of the small bores I have other data with conventional bullets, in particular 223, .257, .264. Lot's of 338s as we tested here way back when. Lot's of 358 and 9.3s as well. So we will be able to do direct comparisons with conventionals to see where we are.

With many calibers I don't have, Sam does, and we will work those in as well. I don't have 270s or 7mms, no 375s of course. Junk calibers like that, useless things I suppose! HEH.......

Michael