Mike

WOW... Excellent work, you have been busy! It is fantastic to see some test work coming out of your area! Thanks!

Getting late, I will comment more in the morning on this. You know it's way past my roosting time!

M

anyone shooting a 50 B&M out of a short barrel. I am thinking of a 10 incher for my encore.

quote:

Originally posted by Max Trauma:
anyone shooting a 50 B&M out of a short barrel. I am thinking of a 10 incher for my encore.

All the guys I know of use the 50 B&M Alaskan cartridge in the Encores. That's the lever gun cartridge, rimmed, squeezed down 50AK from .510 to .500.

In fact, have been shooting one off and on all day today doing pressure traces! Excellent fun. And I swear this Marlin that I am testing puts the CEBs in 1 hole at 50! Just excellent!

Finished the 2cd Generation PTs and Load Data on the 345/375 BBW#13s, 375/405 BBW#13s and 450 North Fork Premium today.

Next? 3rd Generation going up to the top ends now. Getting thinned down some since I pretty much hit top end pressures today on many of them.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I performed a small test with my 450-400 3 1/4" double with the 400 Grain BBW #13.

To start I tested velocity and accuracy out of my 105 year old Boswell double. Started low and easily worked up to 2060 FPS which is where it regulated with Woodleighs. Accuracy appears to be good but more shooting at further distances will be needed to make certain. My barrels have been slugged at .410 and these bullets mic out at .4090. It seems to be close enough. If .410 are available that is what I will order next time.

I set up the same test as I have in the past.

12" Saturated Newsprint
2 by 6
60" Saturated Newsprint
2 by 6 Removable to stop bullets

Fired four shots.
Average velocity slightly over 2050 FPS

All bullets stopped in the 2 by 6 after traveling through 72" of wet newsprint. Three were dead straight (within an 1" across 72") one veered about 2" over 72", not at any one point just a slow curve throughout the test box.



Same boring results as the 470 and 375. The mark on the bullet second from right is from my vice when I pulled the bullet out of the 2 by 6.


In the past I tested some 400 Grain DGS from this rifle. Results were dismal. The DGS tested OK from my 470 but not the 450-400.

I know there are fans of the 450-400 DGS that have successfully taken African game. They were just too inconsistent in testing for me. Out of every bullet I tested the .410 400 grain DGS had the worst results.



Typical DGS result, stuck in the side of the test box.


See Michael I am still alive.

Mike

Damned glad to hear you are in fact Alive--and back to shooting. Damn, it's hot up here, how about your way?

We got extreme results with the 400 BBW#13 Solid as well. Right now, I don't recall what rifle we were using, either Docs Sabatti or Sam's double whatever it is? Strange thing is, we got decent results with the Hornady as I recall? Not a BBW#13 by any stretch. But decent. Better than we expected.

Seems the DGS is hit and miss, depending first on caliber then I suppose magic from that point on. I think we tested 500 gr 458 and did good, 480 458 might as well have a round nose on it-totally useless bullet, .510 did good too as I recall. Hit and miss. Why bother. Not when you have BBW#13s and North Forks, why even consider anything else? Not me!

Do the BBW#13s Regulate for you? Curious. When I first saw the 400 BBW#13s in .409 I liked them so much I wanted a rifle! A 410 B*M. HEH..... Don't forget, we did the new noncons with a wider cavity, I need to send some of those for you to test as well. Old Noncons the cavity was too small.

Michael

SPECIAL NOTE, for all folks in Canada, and all other countries as I understand, needing or wanting CEB or BBW#13s!

Spoke with Dan today, he says he has an exporter and right now the deal looks like the bullets can be exported with an increased cost of only something like 10% of the value of the shipment. Plus shipping of course.

All you guys from Canada, Germany, Denmark and other places just get in contact with Dan and he can give you details if you want the bullets. I have no details, myself, so go direct to Dan.

Just a heads up--FYI

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I performed a small test with my 450-400 3 1/4" double with the 400 Grain BBW #13.

To start I tested velocity and accuracy out of my 105 year old Boswell double. Started low and easily worked up to 2060 FPS which is where it regulated with Woodleighs. Accuracy appears to be good but more shooting at further distances will be needed to make certain. My barrels have been slugged at .410 and these bullets mic out at .4090. It seems to be close enough. If .410 are available that is what I will order next time.

I set up the same test as I have in the past.

12" Saturated Newsprint
2 by 6
60" Saturated Newsprint
2 by 6 Removable to stop bullets

Fired four shots.
Average velocity slightly over 2050 FPS

All bullets stopped in the 2 by 6 after traveling through 72" of wet newsprint. Three were dead straight (within an 1" across 72") one veered about 2" over 72", not at any one point just a slow curve throughout the test box.



Same boring results as the 470 and 375. The mark on the bullet second from right is from my vice when I pulled the bullet out of the 2 by 6.


In the past I tested some 400 Grain DGS from this rifle. Results were dismal. The DGS tested OK from my 470 but not the 450-400.

I know there are fans of the 450-400 DGS that have successfully taken African game. They were just too inconsistent in testing for me. Out of every bullet I tested the .410 400 grain DGS had the worst results.



Typical DGS result, stuck in the side of the test box.


See Michael I am still alive.

Mike

Damned glad to hear you are in fact Alive--and back to shooting. Damn, it's hot up here, how about your way?

We got extreme results with the 400 BBW#13 Solid as well. Right now, I don't recall what rifle we were using, either Docs Sabatti or Sam's double whatever it is? Strange thing is, we got decent results with the Hornady as I recall? Not a BBW#13 by any stretch. But decent. Better than we expected.

Seems the DGS is hit and miss, depending first on caliber then I suppose magic from that point on. I think we tested 500 gr 458 and did good, 480 458 might as well have a round nose on it-totally useless bullet, .510 did good too as I recall. Hit and miss. Why bother. Not when you have BBW#13s and North Forks, why even consider anything else? Not me!

Do the BBW#13s Regulate for you? Curious. When I first saw the 400 BBW#13s in .409 I liked them so much I wanted a rifle! A 410 B*M. HEH..... Don't forget, we did the new noncons with a wider cavity, I need to send some of those for you to test as well. Old Noncons the cavity was too small.

Michael

I think the info you were looking for is here on page 145 using my Sabatti 450/400 and CEB #13s as well as Hornady DGS.

450/400 Results

Page 145! This thread moves so fast no wonder people have no clue of what has been done here.

Doc

As all of you can see, my mind is not what it used to be! Thanks for reminding and finding that. I thought the Hornady did better? I suppose the fact we got a couple of them to go straight was amazing and left an impression in my mind they did good. When in fact, they did not do so well at all. A couple straight, a couple off course, and out of wack! That's 50%, not good enough. Wait, there was 5 of them? OK not near as good. Not 50% success.

I also see and remember the instability in your left barrel.

Man there is a lot going on here! Can't keep up!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Page 145! This thread moves so fast no wonder people have no clue of what has been done here.

As you see I can't even keep up!

Tell you something else too! I have to do some backtracking on some of the test work as I did not enter the data in on the data sheets on several the last few months. Have to go back to the bagged bullets and pull the data out of that! STHI!

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Doc

As all of you can see, my mind is not what it used to be! Thanks for reminding and finding that. I thought the Hornady did better? I suppose the fact we got a couple of them to go straight was amazing and left an impression in my mind they did good. When in fact, they did not do so well at all. A couple straight, a couple off course, and out of wack! That's 50%, not good enough. Wait, there was 5 of them? OK not near as good. Not 50% success.

I also see and remember the instability in your left barrel.

Man there is a lot going on here! Can't keep up!

Michael

That's why you need to put together and publish a compendium:
-3-ring binder so future info can be added;
-heavy stock with glossy photos of components, equipment, guns, game, targets, etc;
-each chapter/caliber with a brief intro story (your recent elephant waltz, for example)
-etc.

I'd buy it ...

quote:

That's why you need to put together and publish a compendium:
-3-ring binder so future info can be added;
-heavy stock with glossy photos of components, equipment, guns, game, targets, etc;
-each chapter/caliber with a brief intro story (your recent elephant waltz, for example)
-etc.

I'd buy it ... beer

All I have to say is that Ya'll surely must be sorely lacking for entertainment to want to read anything I would write!



HEH HEH..........

But I do appreciate it however! Maybe one day when I grow up!.............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

That's why you need to put together and publish a compendium:
-3-ring binder so future info can be added;
-heavy stock with glossy photos of components, equipment, guns, game, targets, etc;
-each chapter/caliber with a brief intro story (your recent elephant waltz, for example)
-etc.

I'd buy it ... beer

All I have to say is that Ya'll surely must be sorely lacking for entertainment to want to read anything I would write!



HEH HEH..........

But I do appreciate it however! Maybe one day when I grow up!.............

Michael

So long as there are no pictures of you rolling around in bullets ...

Michael

You are a classical Mad Irishman--you will NEVER grow up!





SSR

Have finally got to pg 117 in trying to catch up. Noted the following post by Macifej:

"Non-Cons give away nothing in trajectory -vs- other designs. The first .395" HP SHARRC design fielded was used by Prof242 on an Elk past 200 yards in some extreme conditions. He may be around to recount the scenario but I recall it was an uphill, quartering away shot, in a sub freezing cross wind at 225 yards. Prof242 only has one leg and one eye and he was hunting solo too!"

Just to correct a few facts, I have both legs and eyes, there was a light snow, and the worst thing was I HAD NOT HAD MY COFFEE THAT MORNING!

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Have finally got to pg 117 in trying to catch up. Noted the following post by Macifej:

"Non-Cons give away nothing in trajectory -vs- other designs. The first .395" HP SHARRC design fielded was used by Prof242 on an Elk past 200 yards in some extreme conditions. He may be around to recount the scenario but I recall it was an uphill, quartering away shot, in a sub freezing cross wind at 225 yards. Prof242 only has one leg and one eye and he was hunting solo too!"

Just to correct a few facts, I have both legs and eyes, there was a light snow, and the worst thing was I HAD NOT HAD MY COFFEE THAT MORNING!

Prof242,

Michael was using poetic license to emphasize the magnificantof performance of noncons and recognizing the .395" HP SHARRC design as a pinoeer in noncons.

I know. I should have included a few smiling bouncing emoticons to my reply. No recriminations at all.

Max

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Have finally got to pg 117 in trying to catch up. Noted the following post by Macifej:

"Non-Cons give away nothing in trajectory -vs- other designs. The first .395" HP SHARRC design fielded was used by Prof242 on an Elk past 200 yards in some extreme conditions. He may be around to recount the scenario but I recall it was an uphill, quartering away shot, in a sub freezing cross wind at 225 yards. Prof242 only has one leg and one eye and he was hunting solo too!"

Just to correct a few facts, I have both legs and eyes, there was a light snow, and the worst thing was I HAD NOT HAD MY COFFEE THAT MORNING!

Prof242,

Michael was using poetic license to emphasize the magnificantof performance of noncons and recognizing the .395" HP SHARRC design as a pinoeer in noncons.

IBT:

There you go again. Put your glasses on. Read more slowly. It was Macifej, Jay Schroeder, who was taking the poetic license, not Michael, Doc M.

Your reading comprehension is insufferable, give Macifej his due!

The .395/310-grain S&H "NonCon" is something Jay dreamed up for me in late 2006 or early 2007 after he volunteered to start making the .395 bullets from brass, first of which was the .395/330-grain brass FN that I do not think any other bullet on this thread can out penetrate.

Big bores start with .395-caliber.

And I want a .50 Alaskan B&M M71!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP: And I want a .50 Alaskan B&M M71!

Well, I reckon you know how to get one eh?

I have 3 of these now.




Also my favorite lever gun as well. Now, don't say anything about this to anyone, but these used to be "brownings", but it only said so on the barrels. Well, got rid of that evidence and it no longer says anything on the barrel except SSK 50 B&M Alaskan. So, I figure they are now Winchester M71s end of story, no one can prove other wise.

Really good Win M71s are few and far between, ones that have not had holes drilled all through the receivers and lord knows what else. Expensive! Whew, have seen them as high as $5000 to $6000, normal around $3000 or so. Just a bit much.

I went through a phase a few years ago, 1886s and M71s, these shiny ones. I cruised gunbroker about every day, and on occasion found these shiny M71s. Some of the first ones I paid big $$ around $1800 for, but later found some really good used ones for as little as $1100! Not too bad. Don't know what they are going for now? Only good scope option I have is forward mount on the M71s with the T'SOB. Do have a very spiffy ghost ring setup however, if I could only shoot irons!



Have to have that bridge that Brian designed to get the rear high enough with the NECG front barrel bands!

I have been busy of course doing the last new CEB BBW#13s and the North Fork PTs the last few days. Pretty much sorted that out yesterday, but have not had time to enter the data yet.

I neglected the lever guns for years doing work on the bolt guns. When Layne decided of all things he wanted to mess with was the lever guns I figured I better get on with the program. I had just worked up a few loads and in particular the 500 HOrnady, a favorite, using the first guide gun and the first M71 to work up data, without the pressure trace, I had that 500 burning along at 1950 fps out of both guns. Working like a charm, zero issues, but the guide gun was a bit hateful to shoot with that severe drop in the rear stock! It really likes to jump out of your hand in the front. Hateful bastard! The M71 with it's straighter stock shoots like a dream. So I figured to try one of those Marlins with the pistol grip, straighter stock, and had it done. Well when Layne got in touch about the articles I figured to send him that guide gun (HEH) and one of the M71s, and maybe a Stainless guide I had built. Damn, I had to get to work, I had not even shot these rifles so it would not be good to send them to Layne if they had a bug in them eh?

So I loaded up my old standard load with the 500 Hornady at 1950 fps. Put it thru the pistol grip Marlin, locked up tight? WHAT? Too much for that gun I suppose? Hmmmm? Stainless gun locked up tight with the same load as well? Hmmmmmm? Damn. OK, It's PT time, so I got real busy and went to work hard with the pressure traces, had it hooked to the Marlin Pistol grip gun, and got some quick and dirty work done. That rifle is a perfect one to do PTs on, as it will let you know when too much is too much along with the PT. Not only that, but it is EASY to shoot, like the M71s. Shoot it all day long with top loads and it just soaks up recoil. Zero issues. I stay under 45000 PSI for the 50 B&M AK and they do fine in the Marlins. The M71s can handle a bit more, and I would not be concerned at all to run those 500s at 1900 + in the M71s. Not in the Marlins however. 1800-1850 is top end on the Marlin guns, safely. Funny how that first guide gun would handle heavy loads, the rest of them, no go.

Now for anyone wanting a 50 B&M AK Marlin I urge them to get the pistol grip stocked rifle, it handles so much better. Of course a M71 is the hammer!

Michael

Boys I am here to tell you it's hotter than 40 hells here, and humid too! Been on the range today, finishing up PTs on the 50 B&M Super Short and the 50 B&M Alaskan with the new bullets, all load data in and finished now, along with Pressure Traces. Had to place some priority on this work since all the hoopla about the 50 B&M Alaskan.

Now that's out of the way who wants to know something about the Hi BC BBW#13s in .458 caliber??? Anyone interested in that?

Hmmmm, ok well I am going to tell you whether you are interested or not! I can tell you this, I had little interest in it myself, just being honest, but I have developed a hell of a lot more interest in it today! Here is why!

I had some 458 B&M already loaded, some of the ammo I had in Africa in June, so it was very easy for me to place the Hi BC Tips in them and start shooting. I had two BBW#13 NonCons loaded on that trip, a 370 gr BBW#13 and of course the 420 gr BBW#13 NonCon.

Shooting inside today at the 50 yd bench, I measured between the two chronographs and came up with 45 yards between them, give or take a foot or so. I was shooting a 20 inch version of the 458 B&M, only one I had scoped at the moment, and did not wish to start sighting in. But, was not quite sure exactly POI at 50 with these loads and bullets and this gun.

I fired a spotter round to make sure I was on at 50 and could get through the chronograph downrange. This was a Non Tipped BBW#13. Once on, I proceeded to shoot the strings.

I started with the 370 CEB BBW#13 With no Tip.



The results;

370 BBW#13 NonCon 70/RL 10X 2428 fps at the muzzle and at 45 yds 2232 fps. A drop of 196 fps at 45 yds. I am not so up on BC and calculating that, so I had Dan calculate and he came up with a BC of .183. When I did the calculation, using a similar Drag Model I came up with .199. This sounds right to me, and what I would expect.

Now, the 370 BBW#13 NonCon with the added CEB Tip! Same load, 2417 fps at the muzzle, and 2360 fps at 45 yards, a difference of 57 fps! We gained 139 fps in 45 yards with the tip, that is rather impressive! Dan's calculation of BC came to .634 and mine came to .652. Incredible to say the least.

At 300 yds Dan calculated that this bullet would still be traveling at 2050 fps, well within it's shear window that as I recall was something about 1700 fps or so. My calculations give me the same velocity at 300--2046 fps. Also it tells me that if I am 1 inch hi at 50 yds that I am 1.9 inches high at 100, 1.28 low at 200, and 11.9 low at 300. That seems to be about like a 250 gr 338 caliber bullet at 2600 fps or so as I recall. I say that's pretty spiffy!

Oh, and one more thing, Point of Impact--POI at 50 yds with the standard 370 BBW #13 and the Tipped bullet;



Hmmmm, this looks pretty close to me I reckon I can live with that!


OK, well how about the 420 CEB BBW#13 NonCon?




420 BBW#13 NonCon 78/AA 2520 2279 fps at the muzzle, 2115 fps at 45 yards, a drop of 164 fps, which makes sense, some less than the lighter 370 gr bullet because of mass and weight. I buy that. By Dan's calculation he gets a BC on this of .212 and I get a BC of .228. Close enough.

420 BBW#13 NonCon with a tip, same load, 2261 fps at the muzzle, and 2208 fps at 45 yards, a drop of 53 fps in 45 yards. A gain of 111 fps over 45 yards, again, incredible. Dan's calculated BC for this is .657 and mine is .676. Again, close enough. But I would have never guessed these to work out that high! But there they are. Calculated velocity at 300 yards is 1920 fps, well within the shear window that is 1500 fps for these.

As for POI, I had to fire a sighter round, that's the one you see all alone on the right. I had to move my sight to the left, picking a point and shooting the rest so I could get on the chrono. So this group is not as tight as the other, but I could not pick my point exactly right each time either, but none the less, I think you can see at 50 yards there is no practical difference in the group.




I was amazed at these results. The next step is doing terminals at 300 yard estimated velocities. This is the proof in the pudding so to speak. I will be doing this as soon as I can make a plan, maybe by Saturday. I am going to be out most of the day tomorrow. I will be putting a Witness Card every two inches out to around 12 inches so we can follow the exact track, and see everything that happens in between.

Michael

Great report!
Shooting those lighter bullets with a 300 yard range of functional impact velocity envelope could make these a great thin skinned or plains game bullets now.

Michael,

That’s pretty awesome performance with the TIs affixed. Now if we can get some for the .500 calibers…I’m thinking 3 of the BBW#13s are going to give some very nice results…the 460gr Carnivore, and the 375gr and 345gr HP NonCons…with the TIs affixed.

Just from eyeballing it it would seem if you added the bands right behind the truncated nose portion or the top of the bore rider section you could feed these long range hamburger makers from the magazine. Is there a niche for magazine fed High BC non cons?

quote:

I had some 458 B&M already loaded, some of the ammo I had in Africa in June, so it was very easy for me to place the Hi BC Tips in them and start shooting. I had two BBW#13 NonCons loaded on that trip, a 370 gr BBW#13 and of course the 420 gr BBW#13 NonCon.

Is there an intent on your part to experiment with the entire B&M line of calibers? I am curious about the two extremes, the 9.3 B&M and the 50 B&M.
Also, will the Lion bullets be tested with the inserts?
Basically you started with a close range DG bullets search. Without compromizing the resulting design the inserts seem lead to a more universal bullet at least in terms of range.
Just curious how far you intend to follow this path.

Michael/Sam

Yes it is me Smitty (Dan), I finally decided to join in instead of being classified as a lurker. I would like to thank the both of you for everything you have done for CEB. Together I think we have developed an amazing product but mainly it was the both of you that got this line started. Also a special thanks to Corbin for getting us hooked up in the first place. By the way I just sent him two different versions of a 6.5mm 155gr bullet, one being a BBW#13 and the other a round nose bullet like the deep penetrating steel jacketed bullet that you guys tested. I am quite sure he is anxious to shoot them and try to penetrate deeper than anything to date.
Now this tip thing is something that is certainly right up our alley. Since the first testing with the .375 bullets we have been thinking of all sorts of things we are going to do with them. None of which includes shortening it in any way that would substantially lower the BC they are proving to have right now. It would totally defeat the initial intent of reaching out to distances unobtainable with any other dangerous game bullet out there. The best part of it is the POI is proving to be the same with both the tipped and nontipped bullet. That was something we said to ourselves, wouldn't it be cool if both bullets would have the same POI, and they do. Of course we need to do more testing to varify that will happen across the board with other calibers but two for two is a good start. If the current tips prove to reduce the terminal performance, I assure you all we will revise them so they don't. When we are satisfied with the design we will make a tip kit for every NonCon we make.

Since I am very busy, I will not be participating much in this thread but will check in on occasion. Besides that, I do not think real highly of bullet manufacturers that push their products on any of the forums and prefer end users to speak their minds freely about their results without us getting involved.

Thanks to everyone for their interest and support in the BBW#13 bullets. We will continue to further develop this line of bullets and I know this technology will transfer into some of our small bore caliber rifle bullets. It is just too amazing to just let all you big bore guys have them to yourselves.

smitty@cuttingedgebullets.com

Smitty338,

Glad you joined us and I am thankful that you were willing to produce the bullet that Michael and I came up with. I too think it is something special. Your precision machining is making a very accurate bullet which really helps the design.
I really enjoyed meeting you and your crew last week. It was lots of fun watching you guys shoot all those big bores for the first time. I think you seeing the actual results in the test media also made you a true believer of your product.

Sam

Hell's bells!
Another quantum leap in bullet technology!
Thanks Smitty (Dan), Corbin, Sam, and Doc M.
What a team!
Fantastic Four!


Good idea not to waste too much time posting here, Dan.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hell's bells!
Another quantum leap in bullet technology!
Thanks Smitty (Dan), Corbin, Sam, and Doc M.
What a team!
Fantastic Four!


Good idea not to waste too much time posting here, Dan.

+1

Welcome aboard Dan...and as RIP notes, you're smart if you don't spend to much time posting here cause we'll definitely bend your ear about everything under the sun...including bullet stuff.

And as an end user...Thank you for your participation with Michael and Sam to bring us the phenomenal CEB BBW#13 line of DG FN and HP NonCon bullets.

Corbin...Thank you for bring these three individuals together for this endeavor.

A model seems to be developing of putting a bullet with an insert in the chamber backed up with non insert bullets in the magazine. This is due to the length of the bullets.
If the first shot is not a knock down or does not produce a fatal result inwith a few yards of animal travel, it seems to me that the result would be a wounded animal going away from the shooter when the shooter has only "short range" bullets in his rifle.
Am I missing something.

I think you have it backwards. You have a DG rifle with normal bullets loaded in it, you see a great Kudu or something at 300 yards and you want to take the shot. You drop in a tipped bullet. The high BC bullet then reduces the margin of error.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I think you have it backwards. You have a DG rifle with normal bullets loaded in it, you see a great Kudu or something at 300 yards and you want to take the shot. You drop in a tipped bullet. The high BC bullet then reduces the margin of error.

Bingo

Sam and Michael:

I am totally on board with your 67% meplat solids. I think you guys have done a marvelous job. However, I gotta tell ya that I am having an awfully hard job wrapping my mind around the "non com" concept. During my entire life, the quest has been to find a bullet that holds together over a wide range of velocity. The bullet makers have had great success. Now we have super expanding bullets from Barnes (and tipped ones too), Swift, Nosler, Woodleigh, etc. that do a great job of penetration and holding together. I am not sure that I am down with the notion of the "non com" which is DESIGNED to shed the petals. Understand?

I have tried a few of the Woodleigh Hydros and I am guessing they are the perfect compromise between a soft and s solid. However, they are very long and frankly, I think they would have been better with a hard lead core. If I was in the bullet business, I would take one of Kellye Scleps's lead core Belt Mounting Punch Bullets and put Jeff McDonald's Hydro tip on it. Viola, perfection?

Not sure whether I missed something or am just dense (or maybe both), but if the tipped bullet cartridge is too long to fit in the magazine, how do you load it in a CRF rifle?

Hugh

One at a time!

quote:

Originally posted by hughman:
Not sure whether I missed something or am just dense (or maybe both), but if the tipped bullet cartridge is too long to fit in the magazine, how do you load it in a CRF rifle?

Hugh

I am preparing for tomorrow morning right now, so not much time to reply back, and I want to catch up with Dave and the NonCons...

However HUGH----While it was on my mind---Smitty has an Exporter that can export the bullets to Canada, very reasonable price, very reasonable, and easy to do! Get up with Dan on this!

Just running by, back and forth, wanted to catch Hugh on this before I forget!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Sam and Michael:

I am totally on board with your 67% meplat solids. I think you guys have done a marvelous job. However, I gotta tell ya that I am having an awfully hard job wrapping my mind around the "non com" concept. During my entire life, the quest has been to find a bullet that holds together over a wide range of velocity. The bullet makers have had great success. Now we have super expanding bullets from Barnes (and tipped ones too), Swift, Nosler, Woodleigh, etc. that do a great job of penetration and holding together. I am not sure that I am down with the notion of the "non com" which is DESIGNED to shed the petals. Understand?

I have tried a few of the Woodleigh Hydros and I am guessing they are the perfect compromise between a soft and s solid. However, they are very long and frankly, I think they would have been better with a hard lead core. If I was in the bullet business, I would take one of Kellye Scleps's lead core Belt Mounting Punch Bullets and put Jeff McDonald's Hydro tip on it. Viola, perfection?

Shedding petals the way the non-cons and the GS Customsdo had to the terminal effects of the bullet and still achieve plenty of pentration

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I think you have it backwards. You have a DG rifle with normal bullets loaded in it, you see a great Kudu or something at 300 yards and you want to take the shot. You drop in a tipped bullet. The high BC bullet then reduces the margin of error.

Follow up shots on the animal if it did not drop immediately are hand loaded one at a time?

It would seem that the non con bullets designed for the 45-70 with a shorter ogive tip could magazine feed.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Sam and Michael:

I am totally on board with your 67% meplat solids. I think you guys have done a marvelous job. However, I gotta tell ya that I am having an awfully hard job wrapping my mind around the "non com" concept. During my entire life, the quest has been to find a bullet that holds together over a wide range of velocity. The bullet makers have had great success. Now we have super expanding bullets from Barnes (and tipped ones too), Swift, Nosler, Woodleigh, etc. that do a great job of penetration and holding together. I am not sure that I am down with the notion of the "non com" which is DESIGNED to shed the petals. Understand?

I have tried a few of the Woodleigh Hydros and I am guessing they are the perfect compromise between a soft and s solid. However, they are very long and frankly, I think they would have been better with a hard lead core. If I was in the bullet business, I would take one of Kellye Scleps's lead core Belt Mounting Punch Bullets and put Jeff McDonald's Hydro tip on it. Viola, perfection?

Dave

Remember you and I talked about that "Road to Discovery" thing the other day, the other thread I think? Yeah, I was on that road and thought the exact same thing as you about the NonCons? How is it possible--We have been taught all our "Conventional" lives that when a bullet started loosing weight, it was a failure, right? Why was it a failure? Because it lost penetration as it lost mass and weight! Failure to penetrate as it started to break up! I have had that happen in the field, and I am sure I have not been alone in that endeavor!

It's very easy for me to understand that you are having a hard time with this--it was not so long ago for me as well! Sometimes I am just naturally slow about some things, this was one. In the search for buffalo bullets in the .500s I started noticing something happening with some of my copper lehighs at the time. At velocity since this copper was not annealed, then sometimes the petals would start to shear off! I did not like that, it was failing, right? This went on for some time, and I was even concerned about getting above that magic velocity to the point of shear. But early in 2009 I started noticing that penetration was increasing as the petals or blades sheared off? WHAT-bullet is breaking up, but penetration is increasing? Let me think on this awhile? Hmmmm?

OK, yes, in the test work, this was consistent, and penetration increased substantially, deep into buffalo territory. Blades hanging onto the bullet, much less penetration, barely into buffalo territory? OK, lets find out, so off to Australia with the 500 MDM. I arrived and before the first buffalo was shot, I was convinced I was short on bullet in the 500 MDM. 470 gr 6 bladed copper lehigh HP. 470 light on SD in .500 you know! I was convinced before the first shot was fired that as soon as I got home I wanted a 500 gr bullet. Then I shot that first old bull, close 15-20 yds, slammed him to the dirt on the spot, with that 470 HP at 2400 fps. I never shoot only once, so busted him again, and both bullets sheared, and both exited!! Trauma was incredible, you could see the buffalo ripple when taking the bullet. Hmmmm? Something to this phenomena? 13 buffalo later all with the same effects started me to thinking a little more about this.

Now here we are today and I just finished busting 7 buffalo with NonCons from CEB and North Fork, all with incredible results. Petals/blades shearing from brass easier than copper, blades ripping through vital tissue doing tremendous damage along the way, remaining bullet zipping through and ripping tissue that would never be touched by a conventional bullet because, they penetrate deeper than any conventional. Therefore, doing more damage.

Yes, it's hard to get your mind wrapped around the concept, especially after all our shooting lives we have learned and been taught just the opposite! For sure, I understand!

Maybe go here to this page on the B&M website, I have gone into some detail about the NonCons there, might help some.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html

Michael

Dave,

Just look at the penetration of the non cons. They are going deeper than conventional premium soft points plus they are creating 7 wound channels. How is this not good. A normal soft point that misses a vital organ has to have tramua to do damage and kill. A non con sends projectiles in all dirrections plus the main base through the animal. More chance of a vital organ being hit on a poorly placed shot.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Dave,

Just look at the penetration of the non cons. They are going deeper than conventional premium soft points plus they are creating 7 wound channels. How is this not good. A normal soft point that misses a vital organ has to have tramua to do damage and kill. A non con sends projectiles in all dirrections plus the main base through the animal. More chance of a vital organ being hit on a poorly placed shot.

Sam

Exactly, nothing wrong with fragmentation as long as penetration is not comprimised