Sam wanted a T'Rex test on the 400 Hornady DGS. As you recall, this is a tough one for any bullet. 5 inches medium, 1.25 inch concrete block--15 inches test medium and a second 1.25 inch block, then the rest is normal test medium. This is about as tough as it gets, there have been several what I would call failures in this test, Hornady right in the middle of these failures with .458 DGS. Looked like mushroom conventionals.

But not this bullet! This 400 Hornady DGS performed better than any bullet I have ever done a T'Rex test with.

It passed through both blocks dead damn straight, and continued to penetrate to a total of 45 inches! I had not seen this before. Now it was not dead straight after the second block, but it was only a few inches off. Most all of the bullets, BBW#13s and Barnes Banded both being of the best in T'Rex tests even get off course after the second block, so off course AFTER the second block I don't care! Off course BEFORE the second block is a failure as far as I am concerned.

This 400 Hornady DGS must be made of steel, as it is the least damaged of any bullet I have put through the T'Rex Test as well.

In summary!

One of the main reasons that CCMDoc sent the rifle was the concern about the way Sabatti had regulated, by removing the inside of the crown, kicking the bullet to the right. That for sure works, as it kicks every bullet on the market to the right from the left side.

Stability? There is no doubt in my mind that stability of all bullets fired in the left barrel is effected by this. You can see it in most all of the targets fired at 50 yards. Stability is an issue during terminals with that left barrel.

I know little about regulation of these things, but I believe that had the left barrel been left as is that this rifle might have regulated far better with other bullets than the Hornady. I could be wrong, but no matter what bullet (Other Than the Hornady Factory ammo) the left barrel kicked them to the right 4-6 inches from the right barrel.

This gun is regulated well with the Hornady ammo, both DGS and DGX. There is no issues with that, and in my opinion would do fine for anything buffalo/hippo and down. The DGX performed very good in it's role as an expanding bullet, and the DGS was good enough for buffalo for sure. Personally I would have no issues using the rifle and ammo in that role.

The gun is a very nice gun, nice wood, very tight, no mechanical problems that I experienced or could see. Just that left egg shaped crown is the only issue I see with them.

I was scheduled to send it back to CCMDoc on Monday, but I am going to keep it just long enough to do one more test, Sam is making some bullets he thinks we should try in it first, so CCMDoc if that is a problem, do let me know.

That sums things up as I see it, I am sure Sam might want to add, as well as CCMDoc too!

Michael

As a foot note;

Sorry double rifle guys, but I am, always have been, and always will remain a "Bolt Trash" sorta chap! I don't have enough drugs to take to be able to cope with double rifles! It's not so bad getting one barrel to shoot, but TWO??? HOLY COW!!!!!!! DRUGS--The only way!

LOL

quote:

This 400 Hornady DGS must be made of steel, as it is the least damaged of any bullet I have put through the T'Rex Test as well.

It is a copper clad steel jacketed bullet - as is the DGX.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

This 400 Hornady DGS must be made of steel, as it is the least damaged of any bullet I have put through the T'Rex Test as well.

It is a copper clad steel jacketed bullet - as is the DGX.

Jim

I think it has a steel insert, or copper jacketed steel. Sam says it does, I have not researched it. But it would have to be as nothing could go through the T"Rex that way and remain undamaged as that bullet. And it must be thick as hell to boot. I don't think the DGX is?

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
As a foot note;

Sorry double rifle guys, but I am, always have been, and always will remain a "Bolt Trash" sorta chap! I don't have enough drugs to take to be able to cope with double rifles! It's not so bad getting one barrel to shoot, but TWO??? HOLY COW!!!!!!! DRUGS--The only way!

LOL

yep, that is one part of it mate, come on you know you want to, cross over to the dark side luke, and you will know power like nothing else..... bwahahahaha

did anybody say drugs

cheers

peter

Hi Pete!

Good to hear from you mate! Hope all is well on your side of the big pond!

Well, since you and I started talking I have been gaining in my double rifle experiences, as you see! From that time, never even having ever fired one, to this day doing barrel strains and all sorts of wild things with them! I think I am getting more experience with doubles, than I really want!

I will have to tell you something, I have about the greatest place on the planet in which to do this sorta thing! Sam and I were getting some "leg" work in the other day as we were doing the loading in the "Main Loading Lab", there is a secondary lab we SHOULD have been using, ON THE RANGE itself! Had I set up loading for the 450/400 in the 2cd lab, 5 steps away from the 50 yd bench, talk about load and shoot easy! Oh well, never even thought about it! LOL.......


I think one must have several drinks, some mixed drugs of some sort, and even try a few smokes before setting out to regulate a double! I had run out of beer, or I would have been doing much better the other day!

HEH HEH..........

One Barrel at a time Boys!

Michael

Michael,

Just out of curiosity, what Beer would you consider suitable to regulate doubles with??



SSR

Happy St. Patricks Day

today all beer have to be green, today we are all irish

mike, life is very busy here at the farm, but i think if i can get the calender to work, i could bring a half finished gun to your place and sam and i could teach you to regulate it for fun.

now bring me up to speed, have you done any tests on 440 grains .500" hopefully around 1800 fps. (yes private project)

CrossL

Well we are not too particular here, we like all sorts. But getting off to a good start I like the Ice House for that sort of work. If that is not available, fall back on old reliable, Buds!

Now sitting around sipping beer I like Dos Equs, although I am not much of one for sipping, more of a guzzler in the end! No need in good beer getting warm at all!

Now when doing shooting across the big pond I am a Castle fan! But, can't have one until you start the day off proper by shooting well! So I always shoot early, fast, and pray to god for good shots so we can start on the Castles! I have started good and early sometimes around 6 am or so! Now that makes for a perfect day, and provides excellent incentive to place your shots proper! Bad shot--No Castle! Good Shot--Get Started on the Castles! Makes perfect sense to me!

LOL

M

Michael,

Same tradition in Texas, no beer till you draw blood. Have seen guys cut their own arm



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
mike, life is very busy here at the farm, but i think if i can get the calender to work, i could bring a half finished gun to your place and sam and i could teach you to regulate it for fun.

mike, life is very busy here at the farm, but i think if i can get the calender to work, i could bring a half finished gun to your place and sam and i could teach you to regulate it for fun.

Peter,

I like that idea of us doing the final regulation on an unfinished double. No dremel tool regulation either! I'm afraid Michael would go insane with the solder and flux dripping on his floor.

Sam

if ccmdoc could come and administer the drugs, maybe mike could even do it alone, and i will just hang back and see if i can solder a few of his m70's together to make them proper doubles

lets see if we can do a Doc M double, i have to think about this without the green beer having its influence on me

cheers

peter

Michael,

Gifts from SSK showed up about 3 mins ago



to work we go

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Michael,

Same tradition in Texas, no beer till you draw blood. Have seen guys cut their own arm



SSR

THANKS CROSS L, I never thought about that one! Load up boys, the Castles are on me! Now what did I do with that tiny little needle?
YIPPIE

quote:

now bring me up to speed, have you done any tests on 440 grains .500" hopefully around 1800 fps. (yes private project)

Pete, ya talking bout those hollow base bullets? I think so, yes, Jim was asking me about those the other day as well! Sam and I were covered up on Tuesday, and never got to those, gonna make a special effort on that next week.

Ya'll remind me now! As I will forget.

M

quote:

I'm afraid Michael would go insane with the solder and flux dripping on his floor.

Oh man, can get a drop cloth or something!

I think with a big enough hammer I can fix this F%*#%%G regulation crap! Shoots left, little rap on the right beak, shoot right, little rap on the left beak! Don't work, beat hell out of it until it submits!

Yeah, anyone want to help with regulation of doubles? I got it figured now!



Looks a little like the thing above!

Regulation is easy--theres these two caps on a scope--one makes it go up and down--the other makes it go left or right. Just keep fondling till it meets in the middle.



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Regulation is easy--theres these two caps on a scope--one makes it go up and down--the other makes it go left or right. Just keep fondling till it meets in the middle.



SSR

Hey, that always worked for me! I think I will try that before I do the hammers! Notice I said "Hammers"? As in two-One for each hand! That's it, double rifle--double hammers! I really got it down now!

LOL

Sam

I was able to sneak one of those dremel tools in last week, no one really knows that I have another one (Only 3 have been confiscated for abuse to machinery and other items). Maybe if I took that dremel tool and gouged out some of the crown on CCMDocs right hand barrel, maybe I could get it to match the left hand barrel? What do you think? Maybe a little hammer work thrown in to boot? I bet if I did a good job we could have that rifle where it would shoot around trees and corners and other obstacles as well!

Man, having a vision here, all the double rifle guys, sending me their doubles to be regulated, by the infamous "Doc M", maybe do a book about me, bet I would get my own TV show too! I could be famous?

On that note---are there any OTHER questions from the audience?



SSR

OK OK, maybe I was getting a little carried away with myself. I admit it. I have floated back down to earth now, so all is back to normal. I am over it now!


Back to serious matters at hand! Whatever they may be?

St Patricks day and beer are as serious as it gets today.



SSR

Nice tests as usual, Michael.
The big surprise to me was the .416 Rem. with near 80 inches of penetration!

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
Nice tests as usual, Michael.
The big surprise to me was the .416 Rem. with near 80 inches of penetration!

Glenn

We have not been very successful with hardly any, if any, 400 gr bullets in the 416s, mine, with 1;14 twist rates at all. Some of the solid nose profiles show more penetration, and more stability (hand in hand) with more velocity. The BBW#13 profile does just that, as we see. While it did extremely good, better than any 400 gr bullet in the 416 B&M, which runs 2300 fps, in the 416 Rem at over 2400 it started hammering! WIth Sams new 416 B&M and it's 1;12 twist, that just did the trick with lower velocity as well! So in that particular test you see a few different factors coming into play. Twist rates, and velocity on top! Fairly revealing when you look at it close.

Another one that I am impressed with is the 458 version, 480 gr CEB BBW#13. I had plans of doing a 500 gr 458 for the higher capacity 458s, but this 480 is so good, there is no reason to do a 500 at all. In the high capacity 458s they can take the velocity up on the 480, and shazam---super deep and straight penetration, 500 is not required. I can take it in my 458 B&M at 2200 fps, and it does great as well. In fact I hope to use it in one of my 18 inch 458 B&Ms in June on some buff!

M

The good news is that in the 1:14 416's the 325 to 370 gr bullets seem to stabilize great.

A riff here

What I believe Doc M has proved is that conventional ideas are not needed now. The "traditional" bullet weights were predicated on a traditional construction model. I believe ,subject to field tests, that Michael has shown that lighter,higher velocity projectiles can acomplish the required results. If a 325 gr bullet expands to .80 in and penetrates to 28 in why do I need a heavier projectile? the same with a 416 solid-350 gr at 68 in, Just how much more do I need? The new BBW#13 and Non-cons,both CEB BBW#13 and NF I believe are changing the game and we need to go with the new paradime and stop the comparisons to the old bullets. I believe this years hunting season will give the pragmatic proof that we are on the correct track,

Wound track,killing power ,what ever a 416 hole penetrating through an animals vitals will result in death. the old paradime required a heavy bullet , however new designs and materials are here and I for one am going to try to prove that they work.

SSR

Michael: In trying to get my files in order, I think I have a open item on the 9.3.

The noncoms were found to have rotated at the end of their travel. Was there a follow up on this?

Thanks

IBT

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

This 400 Hornady DGS must be made of steel, as it is the least damaged of any bullet I have put through the T'Rex Test as well.

It is a copper clad steel jacketed bullet - as is the DGX.

Jim

I think it has a steel insert, or copper jacketed steel. Sam says it does, I have not researched it. But it would have to be as nothing could go through the T"Rex that way and remain undamaged as that bullet. And it must be thick as hell to boot. I don't think the DGX is?

Michael

Michael,

I downloaded Hornady’s DGS/DGX information sheet when they first released it but apparently deleted deleted it. Here are photos obtained today from their website; the bullets are lead core inside a tapered steel jacket with copper jacket exterior:

I believe the information sheet stated that they purchase the copper clad steel jacket materials from a firm in Germany.

Anyway, ‘twas interesting how well the bullet held up in the T-Rex box.

quote:

We have not been very successful with hardly any, if any, 400 gr bullets in the 416s, mine, with 1;14 twist rates at all. Some of the solid nose profiles show more penetration, and more stability (hand in hand) with more velocity. The BBW#13 profile does just that, as we see. While it did extremely good, better than any 400 gr bullet in the 416 B&M, which runs 2300 fps, in the 416 Rem at over 2400 it started hammering! WIth Sams new 416 B&M and it's 1;12 twist, that just did the trick with lower velocity as well! So in that particular test you see a few different factors coming into play. Twist rates, and velocity on top! Fairly revealing when you look at it close.

Michael, it's your efforts and your presentation I was referring to as being nice (to say the least of it), not the performance of the bullets. I've yet to look at those closely.
The few I've checked fall into line with what I might have expected (OK, they fell into line with what I calculated.) But I don't seem to have enough grey matter to come up with a practical grasp of the instability problem yet, just that it happens when certain conditions aren't met.

CrossL

I agree with you concerning doing a job with lighter NonCons and CEB/NF solids. Just how much penetration does one need? I very much believe in the 350 CEB BBW#13 in 416 caliber. Along with the 325 NonCon.

In 2009 arriving in Australia, before the first buffalo was in the dirt. Shooting a 470 gr copper Lehigh NonCon, 2400 fps. I felt very strongly I would need at least a 500 gr bullet, 470 was too light for .500 caliber! Thinking that as soon as I got home, I would do this, increase weight!

All that until I saw the performance of the 470 NonCon at 2400 fps--3 rounds on the first buffalo, he never took more than 1 step during the process, all three bullets went through and through--how much more did I want? All thoughts of heavier NonCons went away then and there, and have yet to return!

Ya'll gotta remember, I come from the old school! Heavy for caliber! Always leaned in that direction, always! Even today, with what I know sometimes I can't help myself and revert for moments! I fight the battle of addiction to "Heavy For Caliber" blues! So I am not some "Modern" NonCon Profit--I am a "Convert" no doubt, but even myself at times find it difficult. And probably if you look at some of the things I talk about at times, you can see some of that trying to bust free, with the NonCons and the Solids. It can be a difficult process with us old dogs at times.

Do I believe in the NonCons and our new solids? 110% all the way! I don't just believe it, I know it! So just understand sometimes it's hard for myself as well to hold the line, you might say!

LOL

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
Michael: In trying to get my files in order, I think I have a open item on the 9.3.

The noncoms were found to have rotated at the end of their travel. Was there a follow up on this?

Thanks

IBT

IBT

Recently I ordered an entire new run of NonCons in 9.3, 375, .409, and .458, all with thinner blades, and wider cavities. This will promote a more even shearing effect, less drag and instability on the main bullet, and will result in deeper, more stable penetration. At least that is what I think--we will see when they arrive!

I have not been dissatisfied with either the 9.3s or 375s and 458s currently. Since they are not trying to accomplish the mission of a solid, and as penetration is in "Buffalo" territory, I don't get too concerned, with some instability. I would very much use all as they are right now, with the exception of the .409 that did no shearing at all.

Both weights of the .416s while slightly thick blades remain, they are and will always work at higher velocity, so I did not change them at all.



Jim

I will have to take a much closer look at the DGX, I would not have thought a steel insert would have been used on an expanding bullet?


Glenn

Thank you very much, a great compliment.


M

Good Afternoon from MIB! HEH HEH......

I have to show of the latest 458 B&M that just come in for our own 450NE! He took advantage of a Accurate Innovations laminated stock to hold up in ugly weather, had the rifle gunkoted, like my english gun. It's 18 inches and feels great. It should be a workhorse of a rifle. I will be working with it some next week (Meaning I am trying to break it) to make sure all is 100% good to go with it before I let him have it. HEH HEH--good excuse for me to play is what that is! Shhhhh!

Of course even doing that sometimes is not enough, I worked over CrossL rifle pretty hard, and he still broke the safety on it first day on the range! However, we did sort it out, and I think it's hammer rounds downrange now without issues! It's the nature of the beast sometimes! But I think one absolutely must give all these guns, I don't give a damn who did them or how much they cost, give them a hell of a workout before going to the field with them! Hopefully any issues are caught before Mr. Murphy can kick in his two cents!

Anyway, the newest addition to the family for 450NE.







450NE, it's looking pretty good there buddy! I checked the retaining this morning, slamming it hard a few times and so far all feed and function is 100%.

Started shooting mine this morning as well. It is going to be very easy to get ready for June with it. Already have 450 CEB BBW#13 at 2200, 420 NonCon at 2250, 480 #13 at 2140, and 400 North Fork Bonded at 2350 fps, all POI at 50 yds. Of course the 400 NF is about an inch higher than the NonCon. But close enough to work with in the field! That's just getting started as well!

I think I am going to enjoy this little gun as an alternative when I get tired of carrying the 500 MDM around! And even the 500 MDM is much smaller rifle than a standard 24 inch 458 Lott! But a hell of a lot more cartridge than a lott!

Michael

HOW do you break a model 70 safety????? Did CrossL get a hold of one of your hammers!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
HOW do you break a model 70 safety????? Did CrossL get a hold of one of your hammers!

Didn't clean the parts before JB Welding them together woudl be my guess ...

Ahemmm

The difficult we do right away

The impossible will take a few days longer.

Damned if I know, broke it down inside the curve in the bolt assembly, lever just popped up and out when it broke.

Maybe I pushed to hard?





SSR

quote:

I have to show of the latest 458 B&M that just come in for our own 450NE!

All right! Gun porn!



That's one nice looking Megacarbine!

I think maybe CrossL and I are like long lost brothers or something, if it can be broke, we can do it! That's why when we test something and when we get through with it, and it still works, it's very very good! LOL


Glenn

Those 18 inch B&Ms handle great. If one is not very careful you can easy get spoiled with one. Handle one for a few days, then go back to that standard 24 inch musket, and you are ruined for life from that point on.

Michael

Talking about bullets. Dan and I are looking at a 300-325 gr brass #13 NonCon in .458. Trying to get it designed so that it works well in the 458 Super Short, but also will work well in 45/70 type rifles. Problem is, nose to mouth has to be so that it will feed and function in the Marlins--well that don't help my 458 B&M too much as that puts more bullet in the case, than above it, so that it will work. Oh well, gonna try and see anyway, as I think its important to get you guys something that works well in 45/70. Which includes a solid #13 as well. We are thinning the blades all the way to the edge of the radius. Still keeping a .400 deep cavity. I am looking for shear down to 1400 fps or so at least. If not, I think deepen the cavity to .500 and trying as well.

On all the new 9.3s, 375s, .409s, and new 458s we are taken the cavity to the edge of the meplat, can't go much further than that! Shear will happen at lower velocity for sure.

Sam and I were looking at the .585 NonCon the other day, it can't help but shear! It does look great!

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I think maybe CrossL and I are like long lost brothers or something, if it can be broke, we can do it! That's why when we test something and when we get through with it, and it still works, it's very very good!

Michael

By golly, when Michael or I test something it is By God TESTED



SSR