Nates Oryx--458 B&M 295 BBW#13 NonCon




If you look at the Oryx Entrance photo you see two holes, one behind the shoulder and one at the point of the shoulder which was the finishing shot. The one showing the bullet sticking out in the Exit photo is the initial shot behind the shoulder. That was a pretty long shot as well and probably 130+ yards through the brush (aren’t they always). The finishing shot base went somewhere into the hind quarter or maybe out of his ass but we did not recover it. Nate ended up shooting this Oryx when we were trying to catch up to an impala that I just got done missing at 30 yards. Yes, that is right, I missed at 30 yards. After we loaded up the Oryx we walked back to where I shot and there was a hole right through a limb that was about 10 yards in front of me. Do not shoot through limbs or trees, it does not work. As it turns out this is one time I am glad that I missed. Unfortunately rarely did we have a shot where there wasn’t at least some brush we were shooting through. All worked out well except for this one. At least at long range you have time to wait until the animal is in the open but spot and stalk is fast and furious.




Wildebeast #1--300 WSM 130 ESP Raptor



Wildebeast #1


This was the first wildebeest bull I shot at about 120 yards. It was not a good shot and entered about 16” back from the front shoulder and exited about 6” back from the off shoulder. No excuses but he did decide to move when I shot. As it turns out the bullet did not hit lungs. After the shot we immediately went to where it was hit not knowing exactly where it was hit. We bumped him about 30 yards away and we decided to wait for the Ruger the dog which was on his way. He got on him quickly and started barking about 100 yards away. I was thinking, wow that is the way to quickly find an animal when very shortly after he came running back to us. Andrew was not happy with him and said he must have gotten afraid and when we went after the beast we bumped him again. We headed in the direction the beast went and shortly afterwards we lost the track and apparently the dog did to. Along comes Elephass, the best tracker in the world, from a different direction and he was on the track. He said it was gut shot and showed us a tiny spec on the ground. We proceeded to track him another couple of hundred yards and bumped the beast again. We only tracked him another 100 yards and decided to let him go until morning. There was a road near by so we marked the spot and headed back to camp to eat and drink.

The next morning Elephass went into the woods and 5 minutes later he popped out 100 yards up the road in the opposite direction we were expecting him to. It wasn’t even fully daylight and when we walked up to him Andrew asked him if he was sure he was on the right track. He said 100% sure and again pointed to the tiniest spot in the sand between the grass. I have good eyes and I could barely see the tiny wet spot made by stomach fluid. He tracked that beast like dog but better and we found him dead within about 150 yards. All told the wildebeest probably went ½ mile.

When we took him back to the skinning shack and pulled out the guts, Andrew said if that was any other bullet we would have gotten to see every end of the property for 3 days before we would have found him. That is 40,000 acres worth of fun. I did want to see all of the property but not that way. As you see the liver was badly damaged and I wish I would have gotten pictures of directly behind the liver. It was blown to hell and it had to be the petals that caused that much damage.

Hi everyone,
Just want to show my appreciation to Dan and Nathan for their support this year.It was a great pleasure having them in camp and guide them on their first African hunting experience. It was the 3rd time i saw the CEB bullets performing in the field and once again I was very impressed with the performance of the bullets. I kind of expect the 458/295 non con performing the way it did,killing animals fast even with not so good shots. I have to say that the little 130gr 30cal. raptor did some amazing things. I will let michael do all the detailed reports.At first I was not sure what the penetration will be on the long range shots on the larger animal but after Dan shot a big oryx bull at 300 yards through both shoulders and exited I was more relaxed to give the go ahead on the long shots. The 458B&M rifle that Nathan was using with the 295 non con proved to be an excellent plainsgame package for Africa.Dan and Nathan are excellent shots,it just happened a couple of times with Nathan that the animals were in a bad angle,quortering towards us and made for a difficult shot. Both times once with his impala and then with his oryx the bullet entered behind the shoulder.With the same shot that i have seen many times with the conventional bullets,will take you for a long walk on the tracks of a wounded animal but neither of these animals went far before they were down and dusted.

Something that is worth repeating again was a 300 yard shot with a 130 grain 308 bullet through both shoulders!

Yep, outstanding performance by the .308/130-grain at 300 yards.
Out of this world performance.
Was that with Raptor Tip or as a straight up HP brass NonCon?

Yes, liver lacerations may be fatal, especially if created by the Hexploding Deathstar of David (HDD) of a brass NonCon.
Death by HDD.
Righteous!
When is Terry Wieland going to eat that crow?

RIP

I am pretty sure Dan used the 130 Raptor with Talon Tips all the way.

As far as these reports go, I am only doing and showing what Dan and Nate sent to me. Dan told the story, and sent me this via email. I am just the reporter is all, and hopefully I don't get photos mixed up!




Dan Waterbuck




Waterbuck
I think this is my favorite animal that I shot. They are beautiful animals and much larger than I thought. Andrew tells me a big male weighs around 650+lbs. He was shot at 150 yards laying down facing left just slightly quartering to us and we were pretty high above shooting down about 10 degrees. You can see where the bullet entered and for some reason the bullet turned entering the chest cavity and the base went back into the large stomach and was not found. He did not get up after the shot but was still alive so I put a finishing shot through the spine behind the shoulder at 10’ and the base was recovered in the brisket behind the shoulder. The first shot broke the near shoulder and did a serious amount of damage to the near lung as you see in the Lungs2 photo. What is most interesting about the damage the small bore Raptors do is the amount of bone fragments that get blown through the internals with them. With the petals not separating as far from the bullet as the big bores do take everything in their path along with them. The lungs2 photo shows multiple holes through the lungs and large pieces of bone were pulled out of some of them. The same can be seen in the Finish Shot Lungs1 photo in the rear portion of the lungs. Even at 3305fps impact velocity the base does not mushroom like it does in the medium. The internal entrance photo shows where the first shot entered and the finishing shot entering through the spine.

Dan Oryx

This is a photo of my Oryx and the entrance and exit holes. For some reason we did not get blood and guts photos on this one but Elephass told us the bullet entered right at the top of the heart and did a lot of damage to the heart and both lungs. This was a complete pass through both shoulders at 253 yards with the little ESP C130. This critter went 30 yards plowing dirt with his chest since both shoulders were broke and he did it quickly. We have video of this and we may put it on youtube. As you can see in the picture there was very little blood and both holes must have plugged up with fat. African animals certainly have a very strong will to live. If that was any North American animal it would have been down at the shot since he had absolutely no use of his front legs.
Andrew kept asking are you sure you don’t want to get closer because he thought that was a long shot. Since we had no data on exactly what the little 130gr bullets would do in heavy shoulders I thought about it for a second but only a second and then said no I am good to go.

quote:

African animals certainly have a very strong will to live. If that was any North American animal it would have been down at the shot since he had absolutely no use of his front legs.

Dan, this is very obvious of course to me. North American animals have more access to wireless internet than the African Animals do. Therefore, it is obvious that North American animals have been reading this thread, and know what to expect. African animals with less internet access, have not been here to read the "Terminal Bullet Performance" thread, and they just don't know any better, yet. Andrew is busy trying to educate them as best he can!

Kudu
This Kudu was shot facing dead on at 20 yards behind brush. There was only a little peek-a-boo hole through the brush low in the brisket so that is where I shot him. He went about 30 yards and piled up. There was a big hole low through the heart but no lung damage since it was so low.
Frontal impact. 3-4' penetration.

Nates Impala--458 B&M 295 BBW#13 NonCon



Impala entrance1- This clearly shows how a big bore NonCon works. Entrance hole is on the right and at least one blade exited 4” to the left. This was a sharp quartering towards shot and the exit hole in the hind quarter is shown in the exit1 photo.

Nate Kudu

Nates Kudu inside entrance and exit1 shows where the high shot entered and exited the chest cavity and the Kudu lungs1 shows lung damage.

Do Not Shoot through Brush! HEH HEH..... If you can help it of course!

The photos with my name on them are self explanatory and you will get the picture. I have 5 recovered bases of the C130 bullets that I will snap a picture of that shows how they look at 3005fps impact down to about 2250fps. Regardless of impact velocity they do not mushroom at all in animal tissue. The petals definitely remain closer to the main wound channel and appear to only spread to something like 4” in diameter. What was noticeable during the autopsies what the amount of bone that was blown through the internals with those bullets especially on the high velocity impact shots. The petals were hard to find and many times did not enter the chest cavity in front shoulder shots but bone fragments certainly did. The bone fragments were much larger than the petals and sliced good size holes inside.

Excelent report!
A .2SD 308 safari.
The base of 100 grains was kicking ass!!!
A game changer it seems. A lower velocity higher weight bullet would not have such a dramatic affect wouldn't you say?
Interesting was the lower impact velocity the second band is there and a full diameter broken glass bottle damage affect and on the high impact the second band is gone leaving the base of the hole as the meplat say 60%
Thinking a 35 Whelen with a 180 grain raptor would be quite the PG combo.

There is no way bullets perform the same in animals as they do in paper pulp! HEH HEH as someone would say!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
There is no way bullets perform the same in animals as they do in paper pulp! HEH HEH as someone would say!

Lol

They were getting twice the penetration in game vs pulp unless heavy bone it seems.

Dan has proven that it's not a stunt and the 130 308 is quite capable of a safari. Michael has shown the 9,3 210 is more than capable and the 375 HH pushing the 230's would be comparable to that. The Raptors thanks to you guys has shown it is quite a PG killer out to 300+ yards. Bravo!

Nice photos. So the petals are not creating as wide of a wound channel as in the bigger bores? Is that due to the high speed maybe? I am looking to put these in my 300 win mag for my prairie mule deer hunt this year. Expecting shots of 400-500. It will be interesting to see what happens at that distance.

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Nice photos. So the petals are not creating as wide of a wound channel as in the bigger bores? Is that due to the high speed maybe? I am looking to put these in my 300 win mag for my prairie mule deer hunt this year. Expecting shots of 400-500. It will be interesting to see what happens at that distance.

Brent

When I started testing the smaller bore BBW#13 NonCons, which is what a Raptor Noncon end is, one of the first things I noticed in the test work was that the blades actually stayed closer to the bullet for the entire penetration distance of the blades. Now, at that time, we had not yet discovered the significance of this action. But it was noted.

After much work in the field last year and this year, what I observed with the big bore bullets was that while those blades were traveling close to the bullet, they were enlarging the permanent wound channel considerably. Once the blades traveled away from the bullet, they become secondary projectiles on their own.

As the bullet passes through animal tissue, which is elastic as we know, the bullets passage pushes this tissue away from center until after it passes, in which the tissue comes back to center. As these blades are working close to the bullet in the beginning of penetration, the blades are ripping and tearing this elastic tissue to the point a LARGER permanent wound channel is created in that area, far more than any conventional bullet is capable of. This tissue is destroyed at that point, and extreme trauma is inflicted upon the animal.

Now, in the test work, and now as Dan has mentioned, the blades of the smaller bores stay closer to the bullet for the entire depth of penetration the blades are capable of accomplishing. We know that this is a good thing, and a benefit especially to smaller bore bullets. Obviously the blades on all the small bores are much smaller than the big bore blades. Because of this, they are just not capable of traveling too far away from the center bullet, where the bigger blades of the big bores can do so, and become secondary projectiles on their own.

To be honest, it seems to be a WIN WIN situation--either way. I think it is probably more to the benefit of the smaller bores that the blades stay close to the center bullet, causing more trauma for a longer distance.

In the case of the big bores, the blades are larger, and when they do become secondary projectiles they are able to do more damage to separate areas.

As in all cases I know of, and BBW#13s are no exception--the bigger the bore, the bigger the trauma.

But, in the case of the smaller bores--I think they are GREATLY enhanced with the NonCons and the Raptors far above and beyond what their conventional bullets can possibly do within the same caliber.

Another advantage, your mule deer has internet access--he has read this thread, and he will drop to the shot and never know what hit him!

Michael,
Thanks for your well stated response. I do understand temp and permanent wound channel, and I agree with your assessment. I just want to make sure before I go to Alberta.

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Michael,
Thanks for your well stated response. I do understand temp and permanent wound channel, and I agree with your assessment. I just want to make sure before I go to Alberta.

Brent, More than welcome buddy! I think you will be fine with that 130. Do give them a workout however in your rifle. I found in that heavy 1;12 twist 308 they do not shoot as well as I would like--the 100 Raptor is 5 rds in a tiny hole. So I don't know, I must leave these rat guns alone, they serve to aggravate me.

You know, I recall not too long ago, some ignorant bastards saying that the work we do here is a waste of time, been called kool-aid drinkers, whatever that means, any test work we did was invalid, useless, and of no value in the field at all. Declared nuts, you name it. We endeavored to persevere! This by only a small few minority of "StupidAss" individuals, that had never shot more than a few hundred rounds a year at most, one caliber, couple of bullets, never done test work, but had enough to go to the field and proclaim themselves Terminal Ballistic Experts, based on shooting two bullets, 1 cartridge, at least one. I was hounded by doing test work, then confirming and validating the test work in the field?

I am happy to report that this is the way it is done proper--that while you test as much as possible before going to the field--one still needs to validate those studies by field work. To do anything else is Stupid! You cannot learn everything needed by doing ONLY one, or the other, you must learn from doing both test work in the lab, validation in the field. Then it all comes together.

This ripping action of the blades is a very good example of that. I personally did not realize that the blades working close with the bullet was actually doing this ripping action until I observed it in the field on animal tissue. It was there, in the test work, but I did not, nor did anyone else who observed the test results actually realize this. It was only after taking the NonCons to field study, did we actually realize what and how things were working at that point.

Here is a prime example of that ripping action of the blades, clearly shown here in the test work.



And, some clear examples of this from field study.









It was there all the time, but it took both test mediums to fully realize what, how, why, things do what they do.

Lionhunter is correct, we need not tolerate StupidAss Ignorant SOBs anymore!

Michael

Get some ketchup for Terry Wieland to eat with his crow.
Mail him a bottle and he will know what it is for,
especially if the return address contains "Cutting Edge Bullets" or "B&M."
Send him a can of that B&M Bread too, for a crow sandwich.
Opened a can of whoop ass on Wee-wee-land's opinion.

A two band 12 gauge Raptor is one fronteer that IMHO should be explored. Hollow base weight forward projectile perfect for bear, tipped for deer with a rifled barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
A two band 12 gauge Raptor is one fronteer that IMHO should be explored. Hollow base weight forward projectile perfect for bear, tipped for deer with a rifled barrel.

Boomstick, you may have just explained another way forward with the .458 and .500/.510 tipped Raptors. If you remember, adding tips to the already proven 'non-con' was causing unexpected instability and inaccuracy. We can't have that, of course, and the first answer was to drop the weight down an extra 15-30% from standard fare.

Perhaps another way to achieve a high ballistic coefficient (BC and Buffalo Culling) with the long tips would be to create a bullet with a hollow boat tail? The boattail could be hollowed out a bit in order to shift the center of gravity foward. Then the most streamlined shape would proceed and would include a long tip. If this could add 100 points to Raptor BC's I would be happy.

There is no practical reason to keep the bullet design reversible so that exploding point or solid could be chosen from each bullet. Once a bullet is loaded in a cartridge it is no longer reversible in the field when hunting. The number of solids to carry into the field must be chosen in advance. I am very happy to buy a whole box of solids for these. But we do want the best ballistic coefficient

I was discussing with Trap from CEB at the shot show about a double hollow point to keep up the BC but lighten the bullet for limited penetration on humans and not shoot through walls for carts like the 308 blackout. Same band configuration to tip or max out velocity or maximize case capacity. A double non con Raptor as it were. He said he would try it but I know they are busy people and I should remind him. The swith point is good for hand loaders to maximize options and same POI with twin nose profiles. One of the main design features of the raptor is to mag feed tipped rounds. Most will be shot as tipped raptors but options are good. As to using the Double Non Con Raptor as a stabilizing solution to push the center of gravity or center of mass forward I think it is interesting but that will affect penetration and sheer. The heavier Raptors could benefit I think. The issue is more about twist but I'd be intrigued about what I called the "Light(e)ning" (Nice double meaning) base would do to Raptor stability. CEB lightens some of their high BC bullets to increase velocity and reduce time of flight.

Hi Michael,
those pictures of de-petaled 130gn 30 cal raptors have a front end that looks very much like Woodleigh's Hydrostatically stabilised solids. These give excellent penetration and big wound channels but are a non expanding non deforming bullet. So perhaps part of the damage and penetration the Raptors achieve, (particularly after petal separation), is due to that same hydrostatic principal. The Woodleigh bullets are starting to get a bit of a following here with some people saying now that you don't need to use soft points. A freind of mine has a 458 Lott, and will be testing some 400gn Woodleigh Hydros next time we go out chasing pigs together.
My batch of 300 x 300gn 416 cal ESP Raptors have been ordered. Hopefully I don't have to wait too long for them to arrive.

Michael:

From the top, some of those bullets look just like Woodleigh Hydros!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

From the top, some of those bullets look just like Woodleigh Hydros!

Dave & 338

Yes, by chance some do it appears. Had not paid much attention to that. By chance, not by design. In looking at the bullets it seems the ones that hit at higher velocity the shear of the blades is going below the bottom point of the cavity, which does leave a pedestal type hydro looking thing at the top, which looks a bit like the Woodleigh hydro.

Woodleigh Hydros are good bullets as far as I can tell. Have not been to the field with them, and even my Win M70s don't care much for feeding them. Would be great in a lever gun or double I would think, along the same lines and concept of the North Fork CPS.

Dave, Woodleigh needs to make a 325 gr or so for the various 45/70s, 450 Marlins. More velocity, more trauma with these as well. I think the small .458 is 400?

338user--My buddy Daryl there in Australia is becoming a dealer for CEB "meplatfs" here on AR, he will be keeping a lot of bullets in stock very soon. He should be a good source for you guys there.

Michael

If you have not seen it Daryl wrote a nice piece about the bullets on his website. Check it out. Hi Daryl

Do you have a link?

Eric

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
Do you have a link?

Eric

Yep, please, ought to be interesting.

About all this double-hollow-point stuff:
Must remind that bullet weight versus XSA,
yes that ugly old SD, is a fundamental factor for BC.
It is not all about shape and speed,
must have some weight to drive the BC through the air,
just like it drives expansion on impact.
And those hollow bases can be tricky to get uniform loads.

For sure the new .500-cal/365-grain flat-base-hollow-point NonCon
with tip added would be a shorty and goodie for accuracy.
Shorter but 15 grains heavier than the remarkable ESP 350W/360-grain Raptor.
It would be a 375-grainer with tip installed.

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
Do you have a link?

Eric

It's password protected so I would not want to post without permission but if he likes he can post it here.

I think the CEB ballistic tip should be called not "Talon Tip" but rather "Raptor Beak."

The talons deploy when the NonCon nose blows.
The beak guides the flight, and very accurately too.

Still imagining the .500-cal/365-grain flat-base NonCon with Raptor Beak installed,
for the 500 Gipper.
Used to be 375-grain, now 365-grain with bigger nose hole:



Add Raptor Beak (10 grains) and it would be a 375-grainer again.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
[338user--My buddy Daryl there in Australia is becoming a dealer for CEB "meplatfs" here on AR, he will be keeping a lot of bullets in stock very soon. He should be a good source for you guys there.

Michael

I have ordered them from Daryl.

338user

OK--Great! Daryl has put a hell of a of effort into getting his firearms license, that seems to have taken forever. Just a couple of weeks ago it was only a day or two out, assuming he got it by now. He is making a big first order of BBW#13s to get in stock I know that. Now that Dan is back from Africa he will be working on the order, and hopefully it won't take long to get them to Daryl.

Daryl is a B&M chap too, and will be importing B&M rifles and keep in stock as well.


RIP

I really need to update some .500 photos--I have been very slack in that area--maybe I do something about that today? I very quickly loaded a dummy with the 365 LG and it will work with the 500 MDM--although I need to trim the case back just a tiny bit to do so.

Also, it has been before Dan left for Africa when we talked about the new flat base 500s, forward bands, seat for tip in magazines---they are not 350s--but 335s- I can't remember crap unless documented. So there will be a 335 and 300 of these, will be able to crimp in the top groove if needed, and 500 MDM crimps are required depending on compression. So actually the nose projection is a bit shorter on these than even the lever guns. So they will work well in the LGs as well. With the 500 Ripper--even more choices now. Will have these bullets shortly I believe. And, will be doing test work on them once I get them up to speeds.

M

I see that the latest issue of Sports Afield has an advert for the CEB ESP Raptor in the midsection of the magazine

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
I see that the latest issue of Sports Afield has an advert for the CEB ESP Raptor in the midsection of the magazine

ELeeton, thanks for the heads up. I received my issue yesterday, and had not cracked it open yet.

I found it, here it is.

Typo in that last sentence of the ad?
.0005 to .005 inches oversize? That is quite spread!
Obfuscation of a proprietary secret?
And, does this ad mix up the copper SealTite band
(MTH copper bullets, etc.) with the brass Raptors?
IIRC, no SealTite bands on the brass bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Typo in that last sentence of the ad?
.0005 to .005 inches oversize? That is quite spread!
Obfuscation of a proprietary secret?
And, does this ad mix up the copper SealTite band
(MTH copper bullets, etc.) with the brass Raptors?
IIRC, no SealTite bands on the brass bullets.

For sure someone somewhere got their wires crossed big time. Of course there is no seal tite band on the BBW#13s or Raptors. .0005 to .005--No way, never happen. Yes, advert mixes up coppers and brass and everything else at the end. Should have just stopped after "bullets are available from .22 to .50 caliber" and everything else after is wrong.

You can bet Dan did not do that.

Michael

Michael,

I have to send the bad with the good. This was not a good shot on the impala at only 100 yards standing broad side behind a little bush. When we walked up to the impact site there was a green trail about two feet wide and I said oh s!#%. We looked in the direction he was heading and there he was 30 yards away walking very slowly so I put him out of his misery. It was hit low about 6” back from the shoulder and as you see in the exit photo there are multiple exit holes. The larger hole was from the base which must have taken some petals with it not spreading out real far. There is also an exit directly between the entrance hole which you cannot see and the large exit hole. The holes were large and another inch lower and he would have lost most of the internals. There was no need to do an autopsy on this one.

Daniel J. Smitchko
President
djsmitchko@cuttingedgebullets.com
www.cuttingedgebullets.com
Phone: (814)345-6690 ext. 203
Fax: (814)345-6506

Attached are some pictures of my second wildebeest shot with the 300WSM and 130gr Raptor. Andrew’s range finder said it was at 300 meters (328 yards). I don’t think he was crazy about the idea of shooting that far at a wildebeest with a rat gun but we did it anyway. I held high right on the front shoulder thinking the slight morning breeze would drift the bullet just slightly back but it didn’t and it smacked him square in both shoulders right at the top of the heart. He took off and ran about 50 yards all gimped up and piled up dead. When we got to him we noticed a break in the skin on the off side shoulder and sure enough that puny bullet was right under the hide laying sideways. We pulled it out of the hole and took a picture. The impact velocity was between 2225 and 2275fps. Andrew got this on video and I’ll send a link to it when Nate gets it on youtube. We did not make it to the skinning shack for internal pictures on this one and we have to do better on that next time. It fell over within 20 seconds so there must have been a lot of lung and heart damage.

Daniel J. Smitchko
President
djsmitchko@cuttingedgebullets.com
www.cuttingedgebullets.com
Phone: (814)345-6690 ext. 203
Fax: (814)345-6506