quote:

The 450 Hydro performed exactly as it should, a limited penetration Cup Point Solid. Nothing wrong with it's performance, it had 100% straight line penetration. For those wanting a limited penetration cup point solid for buffalo, I can seen no fault in that at all, it will do the job nicely, and has been doing so.

Michael,

I suggest some caution with this evaluation of the Woodleigh Hydro. I have taken elephant with NFFN solids from my 465 H&H NE and wth the CEB #13 solid and Woodleigh Hydro frm my 470 NE. On frontal head shots all three penetrated to the loin meat behind the shoulder. Virtually identical penetration performance. The Hydro actually caused more trama with larger entry and exit holes in the skull than the other two bullets. IMO, we need more field data before a true comparison can be made among these bullets.

465H&H

465H&H:

I will try to do just that this fall but on a bison and maybe a longhorn.

Michael, the 400 grain BBW#13 solid is sweet! It is about the same length as the Hydro of the same weight so Accurate 1680 should work with it too. Like the Hydro, they are very long in the 450 Marlin. Should I have any concerns about how they will stabilize in a 1/20 twist? How do they compare pressure wise with a conventional bullet?

A fun bullet would be a break away tip BBW #13 FN
Have a post depth hole not as wide maybe 1/16th to deliver longer range FN power. The tip will break off and act as a normal flat nose. In a double rifle you could have a tipped non con and a tipped solid for back up.

IMHO this whole tip thing has become a great solution in search of a question.



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
IMHO this whole tip thing has become a great solution in search of a question.



SSR

Cross, I agree and I'm glad somebody finally said it! Why try and turn a bullet that was meant to provide the best level of terminal performance on large and dangerous game into a long range bullet when there are so many other bullets that are better suited to that task. It's like trying to turn a lab into a pointer. The tips are a distraction from the NonCon's real mission. Boomie, just carry a couple of tipped TSXs in your bullet bag and be done with it. We are over thinking this.

Well this thread has tought myself a lot and yes conventional over the counter bullets work but there has been a lot of theory and testing here. A tipped flat nose would not be for the masses but it would be interesting to know the possibilities of such. This is for fun and if some good could come from it too, great. If you desired the properties of a flat nose at longer ranges that could be interesting to some I think but not for most. Testing a few prototypes would only hurt some wet newsprint.

I'm with BoomStick on this.
I like having long range capability and general hunting with one rifle.
And I am impressed with the terminals on these non-con hollow points.
Sending them out to an eland or hartebeest at 300 yards is a natural follow-up consideration.

Of course, the tipped TSXs are slowing climbing up into 'buffalo range', they have a 350-grain in .416 and a rather light 250-grain in 375. But I would love to have some singleshot tipped non-cons. Capoward is on record for wanting such a thing for .500" calibre California deer hunting (where the animals are small and often far).

It seems these would work at range and go through the magazine:

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...jpg%3Fu%3D1324265963


http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...jpg%3Fu%3D3499808347

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...jpg%3Fu%3D2066415624

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...jpg%3Fu%3D2765006329

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...jpg%3Fu%3D3712039782

Looks good to me.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
IMHO this whole tip thing has become a great solution in search of a question.



SSR

I couldn't agree more!!!!

When is more options bad ?

Boom,

More options arent bad, but you can drift to far afield. the links i posted- on Michaels research - have already answered the question.

Go play with toys--I do it to-just allow me my opinion also

Its all good Bro- if this drought ever breaks come see me and shoot some piggies--

SSR

Cross,
some of us like to have cake and eat it.

Yes, there are already some great long range bullets for over-375 calibres.

And the non-cons are great, devastating bullets.

If there is an easy adaption to convert these to high BC, we may discover an interesting twist to bullet technology.

Sending non-cons out 'singleshot', at long range, is not adverse to some of us using light, flat calibres like the 416 Rigby.

My two cents .. I would like to see more research on " Longer Range Testing " within the " 45/70 Velocities ".

I most likely won't be doing any " African Hunting "anytime soooon ! However, I would like to Hunt everything in " North & South America ".

No offense guys, but from a purely business standpoint,.. there are alot of " 45/70 Rifle Hunters ".

CEB might do well to specifically " R&D " a more versitile product for the " 45/70 " crowd.

HMMMM.., lets seee now: 45/70 NonCon Short Range Bullets( DG: Big Bear/Moose/ Elk/Bison),with an optional extended Range Tips (high B.C.). And, " CA Lead Free Bullets ". (which might be a Hunting Regulation of the future, in other States ????)


370 BBW#13 NonCon with a plastic tip insert: Preliminary testing estimate (458 B&M) ; B.C. * .634 *

420 BBW#13 NonCon with a plastic tip insert: Preliminary testing estimate (458 B&M) ; B.C. * .657 *

Sounds like a winner to me

Edit:
45-70 Effective Range: Ridgerunner665 : " Put a real bullet in those tables... "
RD425
* B.C. .377 *
Muzzle velocity 1,800 fps
http://www.marlinowners.com/fo...p/topic,92246.0.html

I'll take advantage of any information & improvements: " Better Bullets ( B.C. )", whenever possible.


PAPI

Just returned from the range where I zeroed my RSM .458Lott with the CEB #13 480gr. doing an average of 2173 fps. Getting cloverleafs at 25 yards.

Thanks Michael!!!

Now waiting for some 450gr. NonCon to see if they shoot to the same POI.

I did have to polish the feed ramp and smooth the right rail to get it to feed the last round. Apparently you just cannot buy a production large bore rifle in this country anymore that will function flawlessly, until you either have it worked on or fix it yourself. I speak from experience with Winchester, Remington, CZ and Ruger. Only my Browning .375H&H has been issue free. Might be time for a B&M!

So I take it the question is this;

"To TIP or Not To TIP?" This is the "question"



Greetings fellow shooters! Tip or No Tip! That's up to each of you. Many of you wanted a tip, we gave you a tip. And it works no doubt about it. BC is increased beyond belief!

I concur with those that think there is little need for them. This is not their #1 design purpose, these are DG Bullets, designed for DG--and DG is short range. That's what these are all about. BBW#13 NonCons--DG. From day one, this is their purpose and will remain so.

However, The tip does add versatility to the "System", and it is a system, not just a bullet--We have a BBW#13 Solid, it has it's design purpose, the BBW#13 NonCon is a twin to the solid, it is the solid with a hollow cavity, this is by design, same bullet length, same loads, near same velocity--but most important at DG ranges, SAME POI! This was purposeful and by design. Now the tip is just another step in the "System", and adds versatility to the System. That's all. These tips will not be sold--ATTACHED to the bullet, but sold as a kit, not sure what yet-10 or 25 or 50 in a box or pack. Add your own, if you want. Tote a few in your pocket for that Just in Case moment, which might be that 60" kudu at 300-350 yds? Who knows? That's up to you guys.

Tip or No Tip? Really I can't see a downside, so tips will be available. And talk about response time--I posted this and sent to Dan at CEB when, Tuesday or so?

Here are the new tips with the shorter studs and new design!




Can't ask for much better than that!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Just returned from the range where I zeroed my RSM .458Lott with the CEB #13 480gr. doing an average of 2173 fps. Getting cloverleafs at 25 yards.

Thanks Michael!!!

Now waiting for some 450gr. NonCon to see if they shoot to the same POI.

I did have to polish the feed ramp and smooth the right rail to get it to feed the last round. Apparently you just cannot buy a production large bore rifle in this country anymore that will function flawlessly, until you either have it worked on or fix it yourself. I speak from experience with Winchester, Remington, CZ and Ruger. Only my Browning .375H&H has been issue free. Might be time for a B&M!

LionHunter

This is excellent! I am glad to hear it. I really like that 480 #13 a lot! Now I know damned well you boys can run that 480 a lot faster than 2173 if you want to, you don't need to, it will do the job at that with ease, I have 100% confidence in that. I bet a pretty fair piece of change that the 450 NonCon will be in the same hole with the 480s! But do keep us posted on that too!

Sad to say that you are correct, most all factory fresh rifles, handguns also, need a touch of something to make them 100%. In many ways, we can blame ourselves for this if we think about it. Take a look at how many folks buy CZs because they are $200 cheaper than some other, more reputable rifles? Then pay someone $500 to get it to work and feed--If that is possible? Just don't make sense, but shooters are CHEAP! Always have been, been with, been one, and been around shooters all my life, so I know they will spend a $100 to save $5. So, we put the manufactures to task with doing the best they can to stay in the market. Some of this we can blame on ourselves. Honest to god, I don't know how they do what they do and still stay in business, so for the last 20yrs I have just accepted that we start with a good basic tool and many times it has to have some tweaking to do what I want it to do. The way things are. Sad, but that's the deal as I see it.

Even my beloved B&Ms are not perfect, and as much as we try they have some quirks too. Biggest quirk is when converting a WSM action to a 458 or 50 B&M. Those magazines are made to hold 270-7mm-300 cases with tiny little rat pills up front, take a cartridge like the B&M and start sticking 450-500 gr real bullets in the end, and start dragging the bolt across the top, and they like to come out of the magazine. Easy fix, 95% of the time it's fixed before it gets to you, but on occasion they need to be tweaked one more time to fix it permanently. When sorted, it lasts forever then. I reckon if that is all the tweaking needed changing the system that drastically, then that's not too hateful. But we do start with Winchesters, and to me that is as good as it gets!

Our buddy Carl has already sent his to be converted to 50 B&M ! He is hot to go on it too! LOL......

Thanks BUddy--keep me posted I can't wait to hear more! Glad you got your rifle up and running on that last round down too! Good news!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
465H&H:

I will try to do just that this fall but on a bison and maybe a longhorn.

Michael, the 400 grain BBW#13 solid is sweet! It is about the same length as the Hydro of the same weight so Accurate 1680 should work with it too. Like the Hydro, they are very long in the 450 Marlin. Should I have any concerns about how they will stabilize in a 1/20 twist? How do they compare pressure wise with a conventional bullet?

Dave

I am not at my normal location the last few days, and sorry I have not responded until now on this. No worries on stability of the 400 BBW#13. It not only will be accurate as hell flying thru the air, but it is terminally stable too, even with the slow twist rates of the Marlins. Why? 67% meplat, nice radius edges. Pressures always run less than conventional bullets, the 4 bands and bearing surface take care of that. Anything I have ever tested pressures in comparison to the BBW#13s are always less pressure, and higher velocity with the same load.

Michael

Michael,

Just a comment that you do a superb job on your photography.

465H&H

I'm in favor of the do-it-your-self plastic tips. Those who want them, have them. Those who don't, won't have to pay for them.

Been thinking (guess Boomy's "transmitting" through the spatial waves) about the idea of converting .450 Marlins to .458 super shorts.

My thinking though, went beyond the Marlins. I am a closet lever fan (oh the shame of it), but with the Browning BLRs. By taking a BLR in .450 and rechambering it in the super short, we take advantage of the barrel diameter, barrel length (20" for a short, handy rifle), and the strength of the action. With the length of the magazine, bullets could be long seated for additional case capacity.

Another way with the BLR is to convert a .325 WSM to the .458 SS. Either install a new barrel with a 1-10" twist, or rebore the current barrel if sufficient metal is there to do so.

Any serious flaws in my thinking? If so, blame Boomy...but I think he has a great idea.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
So I take it the question is this;

"To TIP or Not To TIP?" This is the "question"



Greetings fellow shooters! Tip or No Tip! That's up to each of you. Many of you wanted a tip, we gave you a tip. And it works no doubt about it. BC is increased beyond belief!

I concur with those that think there is little need for them. This is not their #1 design purpose, these are DG Bullets, designed for DG--and DG is short range. That's what these are all about. BBW#13 NonCons--DG. From day one, this is their purpose and will remain so.

However, The tip does add versatility to the "System", and it is a system, not just a bullet--We have a BBW#13 Solid, it has it's design purpose, the BBW#13 NonCon is a twin to the solid, it is the solid with a hollow cavity, this is by design, same bullet length, same loads, near same velocity--but most important at DG ranges, SAME POI! This was purposeful and by design. Now the tip is just another step in the "System", and adds versatility to the System. That's all. These tips will not be sold--ATTACHED to the bullet, but sold as a kit, not sure what yet-10 or 25 or 50 in a box or pack. Add your own, if you want. Tote a few in your pocket for that Just in Case moment, which might be that 60" kudu at 300-350 yds? Who knows? That's up to you guys.

Tip or No Tip? Really I can't see a downside, so tips will be available. And talk about response time--I posted this and sent to Dan at CEB when, Tuesday or so?

Here are the new tips with the shorter studs and new design!




Can't ask for much better than that!

Michael

Michael, Sam and Dan,

Another great idea and product!

These tips would be perfect for double rifles like 9.3x74, .375 and 450/400 that might get a good workout on a PG hunt. Wouldnt have to worry about increased O.A.L. with the tip in place and the increase in B.C. makes for one less thing to think about when lining up the sights.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
I'm in favor of the do-it-your-self plastic tips. Those who want them, have them. Those who don't, won't have to pay for them.

Been thinking (guess Boomy's "transmitting" through the spatial waves) about the idea of converting .450 Marlins to .458 super shorts.

My thinking though, went beyond the Marlins. I am a closet lever fan (oh the shame of it), but with the Browning BLRs. By taking a BLR in .450 and rechambering it in the super short, we take advantage of the barrel diameter, barrel length (20" for a short, handy rifle), and the strength of the action. With the length of the magazine, bullets could be long seated for additional case capacity.

Another way with the BLR is to convert a .325 WSM to the .458 SS. Either install a new barrel with a 1-10" twist, or rebore the current barrel if sufficient metal is there to do so.

Any serious flaws in my thinking? If so, blame Boomy...but I think he has a great idea.

Peterson's RifleShooter magazine had an article on Michael's work with the B&M in the lever application. I seem to remember that your idea was covered in that article, but I don't have the magazine to check.

Somewhere in my recent readings I got Micheal's work with bullets and the BRL hooked up but I can't put remember where that was.

Anyway, it may be worth looking at the RifleShooter article.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
I'm in favor of the do-it-your-self plastic tips. Those who want them, have them. Those who don't, won't have to pay for them.

Been thinking (guess Boomy's "transmitting" through the spatial waves) about the idea of converting .450 Marlins to .458 super shorts.

My thinking though, went beyond the Marlins. I am a closet lever fan (oh the shame of it), but with the Browning BLRs. By taking a BLR in .450 and rechambering it in the super short, we take advantage of the barrel diameter, barrel length (20" for a short, handy rifle), and the strength of the action. With the length of the magazine, bullets could be long seated for additional case capacity.

Another way with the BLR is to convert a .325 WSM to the .458 SS. Either install a new barrel with a 1-10" twist, or rebore the current barrel if sufficient metal is there to do so.

Any serious flaws in my thinking? If so, blame Boomy...but I think he has a great idea.

I am not sure you would gain much by the conversion. If Ammo Guide is correct, the 450 Marlin actually has greater case capacity than the .458 B&M Super Short to start with and, in a BLR, you can shoot it at considerably higher pressure than a Marlin. The magazine is such that it would not be possible to long seat the bullets, at least in the short action guns like the .325 WSM of 450 Marlin. With super bullets like the Barnes Buster, Woodleigh Soft and Hydro, and Michael's BBW #13, the 450 Marlin will do all that needs to be done with a .458 albeit at modest range, say within 100 meters. The 350 grain North Fork Cup Point Solid would be a great choice for thin skinned game such as elk, moose, and bear. However, I prefer the 400 grainers for an all around bullet.

In a lever gun to the same oal no gain but to use rifle bullets.
In the BLR you could do the 458 B&M with 45-70 and Socom bullets.
Turning a 450 Marlin to 458 B&M
Now that's fun!

All that work to reduce case capacity and shoot a light socom bullet? Boomie, you're thinking to much again.

IBT,
Thanks for your info. I'll look at Rifle Shooter and try to find that article.

Dave,
Does the .458 B&M have a greater case capacity than the .450 Marlin? That may be a better way to go. My primary thought is just to have a stronger action than the Marlin (knowing the .450 Marlin is chambered in the BLR), and greater case capacity. I may be all wet, but it was a thought.
Max

Hey guys, just to inject something quickly before I have to be off. The BLR question is interesting, but I have never even laid hands on one, much less investigated the magazine to see if a B&M of any sort would fit and work??????? Don't know.

What I do know is that the 458 B&M the full 2.240 inch case, is greater case capacity than the 450 Marlin by a good bit. 458 B&M is equal or greater capacity than 458 Winchester. The 458 B&M SUPER SHORT, not sure but probably less than slightly the 450 Marlin.

Just how much pressure can a BLR run???? I am not familiar with them. Of course the B&Ms run max at 65000 PSI. I like to keep most Marlins at 45000 PSI MAX---


But not sure how much stronger a BLR is than the marlin, or what they might be rated to???

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Hey guys, just to inject something quickly before I have to be off. The BLR question is interesting, but I have never even laid hands on one, much less investigated the magazine to see if a B&M of any sort would fit and work??????? Don't know.

What I do know is that the 458 B&M the full 2.240 inch case, is greater case capacity than the 450 Marlin by a good bit. 458 B&M is equal or greater capacity than 458 Winchester. The 458 B&M SUPER SHORT, not sure but probably less than slightly the 450 Marlin.

Just how much pressure can a BLR run???? I am not familiar with them. Of course the B&Ms run max at 65000 PSI. I like to keep most Marlins at 45000 PSI MAX---


But not sure how much stronger a BLR is than the marlin, or what they might be rated to???

Michael

Michael, I think we were talking about the .458 B&M Super Short. The BLR is chambered for all the WSM cartridges as well as the 7mm and 300 magnums so it can handle the pressure. It is a lever actuated bolt rifle.

Remember when I told you that I was going out to talk to Steve Hornady and Mitch at Hornady? That's the project I wanted to talk to them about. The 50 Alaskan or the 50 B&M Alaskan won't work in the BLR because they are both rimmed cartridges and the BLR feeds from a detachable box magazine. However, the belted 450 Marlin works great. I was trying to talk them into contacting Browning to see if Browning would be interested in slightly increasing the base dimensions of the 450 Marlin, keeping the same .029 taper as the 450 Marlin and making a .50 caliber. They said they would contact Browning but not keep my hopes up. I told them they did not even have to call it the the 50 Bushwacker..LOLOLOLOL

458 B&M+BLR 450 marlin rechamber = close to 458 win mag performance but needs shorter bullets.

Boomie, we were talking about the .458 B&M Super Short. I could be entirely wrong about this but I think the .458 B&M would be too long to work in the BLR magazine but I am not sure.

Michael, please see my post at the bottom of the previous page.

458 B&M With 45-70 bullets it should be ok in a BLR
I was thinking the super short for lever guns

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

Just a comment that you do a superb job on your photography.

465H&H

Ditto 465 H&H. Everything at Myrtle Institute of Ballistics is of professional, scientific quality. Even the photography.

I go quickly to sleep whenever the 450 Marlin is mentioned.
The .458 B&M is way bigger in case capacity than the 450 Marlin.
Jeepers! Even the 45-70 Govt. is bigger in case capacity than the 450 Marlin!
And I can load my 45-70 Marlin 1895, or Browning 1885 High Wall, or Ruger No.1, or NEF Buffalo Classic, or Pedersoli Rolling Block, or Uberti Sharps to beat a factory 450 Marlin Load.
Why use a .458 B&M Super Short when a .458 B&M will fit in a BLR?
Boring ... ZZZ
But then, I too know nothing about a BLR except Max says they exist in .325 WSM,
so a .458 B&M, with greater capacity than a .458 WinMag, ought to fit ...

Put that 450 Marlin idea out of its misery, please!!!
Most useless cartridge I can think of.
I owned one once, but traded it in on the much better 45-70 Govt.

RIP,
I didn't own a .450 Marlin, but a friend did. My son's .45/70 Marlin did much better with my handloads. The super short was just a fleeting idea. I was only thinking of .450 Marlin because the .458 barrel would be on the rifle, requiring only a rechamber, extractor change, and possible a WSM magazine (which holds three down) to work. The .458 B&M on it is a much better idea. .458 B&M on a BLR! Oh what fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Hey guys, just to inject something quickly before I have to be off. The BLR question is interesting, but I have never even laid hands on one, much less investigated the magazine to see if a B&M of any sort would fit and work??????? Don't know.

What I do know is that the 458 B&M the full 2.240 inch case, is greater case capacity than the 450 Marlin by a good bit. 458 B&M is equal or greater capacity than 458 Winchester. The 458 B&M SUPER SHORT, not sure but probably less than slightly the 450 Marlin.

Just how much pressure can a BLR run???? I am not familiar with them. Of course the B&Ms run max at 65000 PSI. I like to keep most Marlins at 45000 PSI MAX---


But not sure how much stronger a BLR is than the marlin, or what they might be rated to???

Michael

Michael, I think we were talking about the .458 B&M Super Short. The BLR is chambered for all the WSM cartridges as well as the 7mm and 300 magnums so it can handle the pressure. It is a lever actuated bolt rifle.

Remember when I told you that I was going out to talk to Steve Hornady and Mitch at Hornady? That's the project I wanted to talk to them about. The 50 Alaskan or the 50 B&M Alaskan won't work in the BLR because they are both rimmed cartridges and the BLR feeds from a detachable box magazine. However, the belted 450 Marlin works great. I was trying to talk them into contacting Browning to see if Browning would be interested in slightly increasing the base dimensions of the 450 Marlin, keeping the same .029 taper as the 450 Marlin and making a .50 caliber. They said they would contact Browning but not keep my hopes up. I told them they did not even have to call it the the 50 Bushwacker..LOLOLOLOL

Dave

Hornady! Of course I like the dies! HEH,, But they are not in the .500 business anyway! Can't make a .500 out of a 450 marlin, don't think, is it not just a HH based cartridge, fatter belt? Too small to get to .500 if so. But a 50 B&M would most likely work dandy, if they make that BLR in a WSM magazine. Better not be making anything 50 or they might get a nasty letter from me! LOL........

I really never bothered or looked at those rifles much, they are just not "traditional" looking lever guns. But, they might have a purpose for sure with some things. Maybe one day I take a look at one and see what they are about. Magazine length? Would have to be around 3.1 taking the WSMs? Overall for the 458 B&M is a tad under 3. 2.95 or so depending on the bullet. If you wanted to stay with smaller bullets, less length, then the 458 B&M would make the 450 Marlin look like a Model T. As 2350 fps with 400s is easy in 18 inches, if the rifle handles it? 300s at 2700 fps in 18 inches. 50 B&M, should fit and function too.

M

Michael,
Thanks for the info. I've been told (might be wishful thinking) that 3" in the magazine is no problem. Current WSM cartridges used are 2.852" in length. If someone has a BLR in WSM, I'd be interested in finding out maximum internal magazine length.
Still, the rifle is short, light, capable of using the lighter BBWs and NonCons (400gr and under?). Might be a great play toy?
Max

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

Just a comment that you do a superb job on your photography.

465H&H

Ditto 465 H&H. Everything at Myrtle Institute of Ballistics is of professional, scientific quality. Even the photography.

I go quickly to sleep whenever the 450 Marlin is mentioned.
The .458 B&M is way bigger in case capacity than the 450 Marlin.
Jeepers! Even the 45-70 Govt. is bigger in case capacity than the 450 Marlin!
And I can load my 45-70 Marlin 1895, or Browning 1885 High Wall, or Ruger No.1, or NEF Buffalo Classic, or Pedersoli Rolling Block, or Uberti Sharps to beat a factory 450 Marlin Load.
Why use a .458 B&M Super Short when a .458 B&M will fit in a BLR?
Boring ... ZZZ
But then, I too know nothing about a BLR except Max says they exist in .325 WSM,
so a .458 B&M, with greater capacity than a .458 WinMag, ought to fit ...

Put that 450 Marlin idea out of its misery, please!!!
Most useless cartridge I can think of.
I owned one once, but traded it in on the much better 45-70 Govt.

RIP:

I apologize for my exuberance about the 450 Marlin. I did not mean to hijack the terminal bullet performance thread. I am guessing that you feel the same way about the 450 Marlin as I do about the tips.

It's not so much the cartridge that has my attention as the rifle/cartridge combo. The BLR is essentially a bolt rifle so it can handle much higher pressures than the Marlin. When I am loading for it, I usually start with max 45-70 data and work up! I can't respond to your comment about 450 Marlin factory ammo because I have only used my own hand loads. I also have a stainless guide gun in 45-70. However, I much prefer the BLR.

I have heard wildly different claims regarding the relative case capacity of the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin, mostly from 45-70 fans. The Marlin rifle and the 45-70 have been around a long time and sometimes it's hard for people to accept something new. However, according to Ammo Guide, the verified case capacity of the 45-70 is 72.5 grains of water. The verified case capacity of the 450 Marlin is actually greater at 73.4 grains of water. Undoubtedly you can get more velocity out of a 24 inch barrel with either cartridge. However, Michael and Jeff have sold me on this light and handy thing so I will sacrifice a little velocity to gain a more portable rifle. With a 400 grain BBW#13, Barnes Buster, Punch Bullet, or a Woodleigh Hydro I don't think it makes much difference with either gun. Anyway, that's why I prefer the 450 Marlin, mostly because of the rifle. It you like the 45-70, that's sure okay with me.

I don't have a clue if the .458 B&M will work in the BLR. If it would, that would be a sweet package indeed. However, I am going to leave that question to those more qualified to provide and answer.

Good luck and good hunting.

Dave,

They’re the “forgotten child” of the B&M lineup…but if the 458 B&M cartridge is to long for the BLR box, Michael already has a solution on the shelf for you. It is the 458 B&M SA cartridge. The 458 B&M SA uses the 300 SAUM case length, 2.0” case length, so it slots nicely between the 2.4” case length 458 B&M and the 1.65” case length 458 B&M SS. I think the overflow case capacity of each is (approximately); 458 B&M = 99gr, 458 B&M SA = 85gr, and 458 B&M SS = 70gr respectively. Performance wise, in a bolt action rifle the 458 B&M SA performance should be very similar to the performance difference between the 300 WSM and the 300 SAUM cartridges using identical bullets and identical barrel lengths.

Although Michael tagged the “SA” as "Semi-Auto" as he chambers them in his DPMS Semi-Auto rifles…it just happens to be the optimum solution for the various "Short Action” bolt action rifles that are chambered for either the 300 SAUM or 300 WSM (or any of the full case length derivative SAUM or WSM cartridges)…and yes this would not be the M70 Winchesters. LOL…

Cappy, now you may be on to something. However, I think we should leave this here. I think RIP is a little tired of our 450 Marlin discussion. I'll check it out with Michael. Now, back to bullets!

Yep normally we'd be having this type discussion over on this thread:
416-458-50 SS-50 B&M Series Cartridges/Rifles
http://forums.accuratereloadin...43/m/9111029801/p/27

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Yep normally we'd be having this type discussion over on this thread:
416-458-50 SS-50 B&M Series Cartridges/Rifles
http://forums.accuratereloadin...43/m/9111029801/p/27

Not that anyone really minds to much, but to keep things in order I took this part of the thread over to the B&M thread, along with my comments.

M

Now back to bullets! I have some interesting things that have been thrown into this shipment of .458s I am getting, I suppose tomorrow now.

We will be looking at a 223 BBW#13 NonCon! And with some tips as well. Not big bore, but maybe we should not tell the bullet that, you know, "Caliber Complex", so please don't mention anything about it being small, or tiny, comments like that. It thinks it's big! So...........

Might be a few 338 caliber 225 gr BBW#13 NonCons in this package as well? Hmmmmm?

I also have some of those very pointy, very long CEB 338 caliber copper bullets I promised to try out too, but just have not got to those yet. With the BBW#13s coming, then do both at once.

Now what do I test these in? We have old standby, 338 Winchesters, short ones, 338 WSM, skinny ones, 338/06, big daddy, 338 Ultra? Hmmmm?

New tips coming as well I think, the new stud configuration I showed you above.

Oh, and 465HH, thank you, very nice compliment, I will try an not let it go to my head! LOl..

And of course RIP for backing you up on the nice comment about the photos. Not sure which one you are talking about, or just in general. But thanks!

M