Sam

We will make a plan, not sure exactly what's up and going right now, but we will make a plan!

M

Michael,

If you are burned out just give it a rest for a while. No hurry and you can sit the bullets I sent you on the shelf.

Sam

michael

go and shoot some animals and bring the wife, just get out and have fun for a bit.

i just talked to andrew in zambia, and allthough i have to go out an do some rifle stuf in the workshop, i am sitting here and looking at pictures of funny animals instead.

sam
i had 2 shots with the 12 bore today, i couldent help myself, they went 1850 fps and took out a bigbale from last year with 72 % water content in it, penetration were 64-65" and the trauma was awsome.

now i am not going to repeat this test untill i build the bigger gun, the only way for me to describe the recoil is significant or real frisky.
after the first 5" or so the hole were as big as my hands put next to each other, i am sure that which ever animal shot with this from any angel will keel over and die fast.

peter(bruised but content)

Yeah, I need a day or two break from it for sure. Going at a pretty steady pace the last few weeks. I have to get the new 9.3 prototypes tested and approved, I will have them before friday.

Peter

I should have planned a second trip for this fall to somewhere, to shoot something! This will be a first in many many years that I have not been on a fall shooting expedition!


Look, neither you nor Sam have told me too much about this 12 bore bullet. How much does it weigh? What is the exact diameter? I had Dan on the phone today, I could have asked him a price on making some.


You see, what did I tell you about the bales? HEH HEH!!!!!!!

M

michael

i dont have my notes here they are in the workshop so app. 670 grains and .735"
i have to defere to sam but i think it is about 65-70% meplat, it sure is wide as hell
i actually do have a few cinder blocks around here somewhere on the farm that i might try for the fun of it they are 8" wide and should make a challenge for the bullet

do you have a recoil calculator around, the gun weighs 7 pounds and the powder load were 90 grains of w110

best

peter

Michael and Peter,

Glad those 12 bores worked. The Diameter was I think .715 not .735. This may have been my fault because of converting metric to English. I thought they should have been .735 but I went by conversion chart. Weight was 690 grains. I'll make one more for you Michael to send to Dan.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael and Peter,

Glad those 12 bores worked. The Diameter was I think .715 not .735. This may have been my fault because of converting metric to English. I thought they should have been .735 but I went by conversion chart. Weight was 690 grains. I'll make one more for you Michael to send to Dan.

Sam

sir sam, knight of the bastard file

they worked perfectly and i am going to try them at around 1300 fps as well, to see how much of a difference it will make in penetration, and also to make sure that the next loads wont kill me.

again thank you

peter

Peter,

Is .735 the diameter you wanted? Also do you still want 560 grain weight? I will try to send Michael a bullet just like you want. Make the changes you want and let me know.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
michael

i dont have my notes here they are in the workshop so app. 670 grains and .735"
i have to defere to sam but i think it is about 65-70% meplat, it sure is wide as hell
i actually do have a few cinder blocks around here somewhere on the farm that i might try for the fun of it they are 8" wide and should make a challenge for the bullet

do you have a recoil calculator around, the gun weighs 7 pounds and the powder load were 90 grains of w110

best

peter

Peter

Quickly plugging that into the system it tells me 115 ft lbs of free energy! I reckon that will get your attention, be a little hateful!



Yes, if you guys put something together for me I can get up with CEB and get an idea of what is what.

I suppose Peter would want to shoot some of these daily from now on, just to get used to it, so I reckon we should place an order for 2000-3000 of them, at least a 1 year supply, that's only 5-6 rounds a day everyday! You can handle that Peter! Piece of cake! I think about 10-15 a day, I will place a larger order!

Michael

Have you slugged your 12 bore ?
Should it not be .729"

Peter,

At the speeds you are talking about wouldn't a hard cast bullet work just as good and be much cheaper?

Sam

Doc M,
Definitely not worth wasting your energy on the Round Nose Crowd!
There is grudging acceptance of the Flat Nose Solid beginning there.
They just don't want to admit they are Luddites!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Peter,

Is .735 the diameter you wanted? Also do you still want 560 grain weight? I will try to send Michael a bullet just like you want. Make the changes you want and let me know.

Sam

sam
they are perfect, the bore is .705" the grove is .716" i just think i am a bit overworked and underpayed at the moment

yes at 1300 fps they would proberly be better suited with a lead slug and i am testing the fosbury slugs later this week, it is simply to see the difference between the two in penetrating abbility.

bommy
no need to slug, the bores are from my new double rifle 12 bore prototype, i think you would appriciate the display of raw power when fired

michael

115 ft lbs of free recoil actually dont sound that bad when i read it on the screen i might just go out and try it tommorow, to make sure it is all that bad, or if i just had a bad day, how much would the numbers change if i put another 3 pounds in the barrels to make it an even 10 pounder.

cheers

peter

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Doc M,
Definitely not worth wasting your energy on the Round Nose Crowd!
There is grudging acceptance of the Flat Nose Solid beginning there.
They just don't want to admit they are Luddites!

Doc RIP

Yes, I think sometimes I should just keep my mouth shut and let nature take it's course! I am the passionate sort, and truly believe some things. But there are some things better left alone! Take it as it comes!

My new saying is this!

"I used to Care, But I take a Pill for that Now!"

HEH

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
michael

115 ft lbs of free recoil actually dont sound that bad when i read it on the screen i might just go out and try it tommorow, to make sure it is all that bad, or if i just had a bad day, how much would the numbers change if i put another 3 pounds in the barrels to make it an even 10 pounder.

cheers

peter

Peter

Those first shots always seem pretty tough. My little 500 MDM can churn up 90-95 ft lbs or so, and I thought that was pretty rough off the bench the first 25 or so rounds, after 50 or so you don't even pay it any attention then. So after you get a few more under you belt it will just get less and less each time, until you hardly pay it little mind. I think if you are going to the field for long days in the bush with this thing, keep it 7-8 lbs. 10 lbs brings it down to a mere 85 ft lbs free energy.

M

Oh, I do have a question for you guys, these .500 caliber Hollow Base Bullets that Sam sent down. What exactly are my objectives for this, if told, I forgot?

We only had one to test a few weeks ago. As I recall it was 360 grs, same velocity as the 430s, same length, diameter, meplat, the works, and it should not have penetrated as deep because of SD alone. Now, am I to repeat this to be sure? Or try and gain velocity?

I used exactly the same load in the 360 HB as the 430s, I gained no velocity because of lighter weight, same bearing surface, same "size" bullet in length, just lighter because of the hollow base.

So what exactly are my objectives so I can set the test up?

M

michael

i think i wil give the clients the choice instead, and for myself just get used to the recoil

yes the hollow base bullets, same vel. as the solids just to see if this whole SD is bogus, it will proberly give me a heart attack and turn me into a hara chrisna, might even get me to cut my hair, but i am very curius though

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
michael

i think i wil give the clients the choice instead, and for myself just get used to the recoil

yes the hollow base bullets, same vel. as the solids just to see if this whole SD is bogus, it will proberly give me a heart attack and turn me into a hara chrisna, might even get me to cut my hair, but i am very curius though

peter

Peter


OK, I get the picture. Remember, I am just the messenger! I will get them loaded, and probably put them to the test this weekend. I have new CEB Prototype 9.3s coming in before the weekend, so yet another intensive test before going into production with them. In addition, I also have the famous #13 JDJs, and some more Sam sent. Back to work! Making Witness Cards up this morning, getting ready. I have 100 laminate sheets left, out of 800, I have used 700 witness cards! Have to get a new order coming.

M

Peter, Glad I didn't screw up and make those bullets the wrong size. That English to Metric always messes with my head.

Michael, I think you wanted the hollow base bullets to do more tests with. I forget also so you aren't the only one.

Sam

sam

with the work you do, i highly doubt that you do screw up, as i have said the bullets are perfect.

sadly i didnt get the shooting session on video(pushed the wrong buttom) but next time i will get it. must have been priceless with the look at my face going from a mild 9,3 to KABOOOM

peter

Question?

I am only about half way trough this thread and I am enjoying it very much. However, I have a question. If the flat nose solid bullets create such a big wound channel without mushrooming much what is the point of a softnose bullet? What real benefit is relized with the bullet mushroming to half again it original diameter?

Thanks
Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Coloradoyaler:
Question?

I am only about half way trough this thread and I am enjoying it very much. However, I have a question. If the flat nose solid bullets create such a big wound channel without mushrooming much what is the point of a softnose bullet? What real benefit is relized with the bullet mushroming to half again it original diameter?

Thanks
Mark

Hey Mark, Welcome. It's a lot of reading, hope you can get past the BS from time to time?

Good question, I will try and answer it for you.

Yes, the big bore flat nose solids do impart a great deal of trauma both to the test medium, and to animals. I will speak particularly about buffalo, I have shot a few buffalo with the round nose solids in early days, I can't ever recall seeing much of a reaction from buffalo to taking the bullet. Yes, some, but nothing like I see when they take one of the flat nose solids. In 2005 I used a combination of the then new to me, Barnes Banded FN and the old RN Barnes. On buffalo I was astounded at the reactions the buffalo were having to the FN Barnes, as always opposed to the RN. Very visible and easy to see. The FN was hammering them, as second shots. Since 2005 I have been shooting them with various solids for testing and this trend continues to prove out, the FN solids hit them hard and there is no questions about it.

But that is a bonus, and not the primary purpose of the FN solid. Primary is deep and reliable penetration. Once we pass 65% meplat of caliber, going up to 70%, 75%, even more trauma is inflicted to target, and penetration even becomes more stable depending on caliber, twist rates, velocity and other factors, but going up in meplat size one starts to decrease the depth of penetration also.

While this trauma seen and inflicted to test medium and animal tissue is tremendous compared to a lesser meplat solid or a RN solid, it still cannot compare with the trauma inflicted by either a soft point expanding bullet or a Non Conventional expanding bullet. Both in animal tissue and test medium, there is a huge difference, between the FN Solid transfer of trauma, and an expanding bullet. So to inflict the most trauma to target, lets say buffalo, it's still very advantageous to hit them hard up front with a soft point expanding, or a Non Conventional expanding bullet and then to follow up with a FN Solid afterwards. With a proper expanding bullet there is once again a huge visible difference in how these animals take the bullet and trauma inflicted upon them. Yet just another step up you might say.

So as good as the big bore FN Solids are, they still cannot compete with a really good soft or Non Conventional expanding bullet on that first shot for trauma transfer and destruction of tissue.

This help?

Michael

Hey, Michael, that answer even helped me. It is, of course, exactly what we've always assumed, but it is nice to hear from someone who has been looking at the churned up paper and 'trauma cards' in your testing.

Obviously, if a bullet only goes 18" with the same entrance energy as a solid that penetrates 50", both will have given off the same amount of energy. And hopefully the 18" wound channel doesn't just re-pulverize and liquify the same size channel as the first 18" of the solid, but affects a wider channel.

Tanzan

Excellent, I looked the post over again, hell I even understood it too! Must be getting better at getting my point across? Maybe?

LOL

Michael

Thanks Michael458.

The 50 b&m alaskan that you have the 500gr @ 2000fps, is that in a mod 71?

Mark

Coloradoyaler

Yes, it is in a M71. Can't get that much in a Marlin. In fact, I am beginning to back up on the 2000 a little bit. I hit 2000 with an 18 inch M71. It seemed fine, measured out well, did not seem to be any issues. I backed it down just a bit to 1950 and have been shooting that in the 71 regular. The first Marlin could handle the same load at 1950 as the M71. So I figured that was cool. I had to get a couple of Marlins shot in a few weeks ago, and the 1950 fps load was way too heavy in both of them, so I had to back the Marlins down to 1875 fps to be safe. The M71 handles the 1950 just fine, still shooting them, but might be a little reluctant now to go back to 2000.

If one took a 71 with 20 inches of barrel 2000 would not be a hard mark. 18 Inches is pushing it.

That's why the new North Fork 450 Bonded Core bullet is going to be so good in the lever guns, it's designed for the lever guns, even the Marlin! Easy 2000 with it in 18 inches.


Michael

Well is anyone here interested in any test work that I did this morning???????

M

OK, since I don't have time to wait around on a reply, I will just get on with it.

Had to get something done today, trying to catch up with Sam, and now have some more to do from EZrider, more on those later. Plus some other things I have had on the back burner, but priority items first.

One priority I had was some new 9.3 Solids from CEB. As we know, we have been coming up a bit short on decent stable solids in 9.3. We have our 320 Woodleigh, big deep diver, but does not always shoot the same POI as lighter 286s and 250s in 9.3. The 286 Woodleigh FMJ is not the 320 FMJ, it's out, both Barnes 286 and 250s are about as bad as it gets, worse than most RN solids. So they are out. The only 9.3 that is stable during terminals is the North Fork 286. This has prompted me to look for a lighter solid in which to match up with my 250 gr loads.

CEB--Cutting Edge Bullets! Got prototypes in a couple of days ago, come in a little heavy at 270 grs. Well, this is why you do prototypes so that the production run is 100% good to go. I am pretty sure I am going to cut 10 grs weight off these for 260 gr solids. I think that will be close to the 250 gr loads and will work to same POI with most of them.




As for looks, the bullets look great, so far so good.



They tested good, very consistent. I did 5 of them all in the same box, none crossed. Had two of them that was slightly off course some, but both of those meplats had been damaged along the way. I figure that might have knocked them slightly off course? All 5 were right there together.



Like I said, unless there is something else I find then I am dropping the weight to 260 grs and making a run of 1000 of them. Penetration will drop a few inches, I figure to about 56-58 inches at 260, but behavior will be the same, straight line penetration.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well is anyone here interested in any test work that I did this morning???????

M

Well Michael,

Some of us have to work even on "Holiday weekends" while others get to play .

Glad to see you are making progress on the .366 front seeing that I now have one. I'd like to see something light but accurate and it seems you are on the way there.

When are you going to be done with these varmint calibers and work on a normal-size projectile like say ... a .620?

CCMDoc

Yes, I think this little 260 gr 9.3 CEB is going to work dandy. For those that like 250 gr expanding, this 260 CEB should match up nice, for the 286 crowd we have the 286 North Fork, and for the 320 crowd we have the 320 Woodleigh. I think we just about have 9.3 whipped!

Did you miss the .620s and the 600 OverKill test work?????? Been there Done that!







M

Paul

Gotta be careful, never know what I might pull out my arse?????



Funny, LOL........

OK OK. I can't remember when that was, some time ago, my buddy Corbin had one of these things and he would bring it down to play with a couple of times and then he sold it. We never run anything over about 2100 fps as I recall, and most of his loads were down in the 1800-2000 fps range. It was a hoot to shoot and lot's of fun chunking those big bullets into the mix. It's a big damn hammer for sure! I can't figure how to get one into a B&M Super Short at 6 lbs yet or I would have one! Oh god, I hope boomy is not reading this, he will drive me insane now!

We also tested some of his cast bullets in the mix too, can't find those photos. I kept data on everything.

Michael

Next!!!!!!!!!!

Peter, how is the weather in your part of the world today????

How about some Hollow Base Bullets to ponder over?




Little update is in order I think. Remember our meplat tests, most all those bullets weighed in close to 430 grs or so, stable penetration on 65% and up was around 42-46 inches as I recall. Well Sam had made one that had a hollow base, it weighed 360 grs, same length, nose profile, meplat size, everything except the weight from 430 to 360. Well common sense and sectional density told us that the bullet cannot possibly penetrate to the same depth as the 430s, right? Wrong? Not much difference?



This raised some questions that needed answered, how could this be, this bullet weighed only 360 grs with an SD of only .206 and the 430s with an SD of .246, how could they be that close?

Sam made a few more, and I just got to them today. Not sure I answered anything, I have more questions now than even before?



I missed the velocity by 60-70 fps, and I am sure the extra velocity took these a tiny bit further, but we still have a question of HOW CAN THIS BE? What happened to SD? These bullets are the same physical size, length, diameter, close in meplat size, same nose profile, and now the 360s because of the velocity actually penetrate deeper? Like I said, what did we answer here?

michael

we just arrived into the murky zone of What The F***, i just asked sam to hollow out the 12 bores to keep the recoil down, but this is mind twisting into the extreme, any ideas as to what is at play here, SD just got thrown out the window as a useless factor in regards to penetration.

i need a beer just about now, so thanks for the speedy tests and cheers

peter

Michael,

Thats pretty impressive for a 360 gr .500 bullet! Very interesting! I look forward to seeing how those new #13's do. Maybe I'll hollow base some of those to see if the trend follows.
Your 9.3's look good, can you give us a close-up photo of the bands? Is it an optical elusion or are the bands made like threads on a bolt.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Paul

Gotta be careful, never know what I might pull out my arse?????



Michael

Michael,

In my line of work, I've had to pull some unimaginable things out of other people's arses (no, you really do NOT want to know).


I must have missed the 600 plink-off - have to go back through and find it. Keep up the excellent evidence-based investigation. It has been a most excellent education.

quote:

We just arrived into the murky zone of What The F***, i just asked sam to hollow out the 12 bores to keep the recoil down, but this is mind twisting into the extreme, any ideas as to what is at play here, SD just got thrown out the window as a useless factor in regards to penetration.

We've definitely arrived at the WTF zone. Same bullet except hollow out 69grs weight from the bottom and still have equal penetration. Then...add an additional 40fps muzzle velocity and 2% meplat and get an additional 6" penetration. Yep definitely in the WTF zone.

quote:

Thats pretty impressive for a 360 gr .500 bullet! Very interesting! I look forward to seeing hoe those new #13's do. Maybe I'll hollow base some of those to see if the trend follows.

Definitely will be interesting to see what the different nose shape and bullet weight affect the results.

Now here's another question to ponder, "will this hollow base phenomenon similarly work with NONCON HP bullets?"

Peter

Me too pal!

But 3 times in a row is going beyond anomaly. It appears to me that Weight alone is not a deciding factor, I think we may have just "discovered" a yet Unknown factor, and that is "physical Size" of the bullet, not it's weight. I can promise had we taken the same weight bullet, and everything else being the same, but not a hollow base, a shorter, less weight bullet, then SD would have come into play and there would have been less penetration.

But now we have less weight, but the actual physical size of the bullet is the same, penetration the same if velocity is the same, more if velocity is more! Physical size of the bullet must be a factor, that over rides Sectional Density. Sectional Density based on weight, now is even less of a factor than it was?

The big 5 Factors

1. Nose Profile
2. % of Meplat
3. Twist Rate
4. Velocity
5. Construction

Now number Six

6. Physical Size (for lack of a better term)
7. And finally Sectional Density!



I am just trying to sort it out, I can think of nothing else?

Michael

Almost forgot...very good results with the 9.3 270gr CEB FN solids...should still work great trimmed down to the 250gr-260gr range.

And I won't even mention that upper heavy width band...Oops...guess I did.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Paul

Gotta be careful, never know what I might pull out my arse?????



Michael

Michael,

In my line of work, I've had to pull some unimaginable things out of other people's arses (no, you really do NOT want to know).

Paul

I definitely DO NOT want to know!

I think I posted a couple of bullets only on the 600 OK, I don't think I posted the two solids, and that would have been way back last August or so I would think, cause I remember Corbin wanting me to take the 600 OK on the buffalo shoot in Australia. So the shooting of the 600s would have been just before that and that would be August 2009. Maybe July, but I think early August.

Michael

Gees, I am getting lost, I guess you guys did want to see some tests, lurking around waiting on me!

Sam

Yes, very impressive with the 360 BBW/HB69%FN (HEH). Thank god you didn't make it an HP, it would have been, 360 BBW/HP69%FN/HB Got it? 50 Inches? 2245 fps? HOW? Not Possible? So "THEY" say, and you know how "THEY" are? Who Ever "THEY" Is? Is? Now what is the definition of "Is"?


Need a beer like Peter says, WTF?

Physical Tangible Size! That's as high as my pay grade will allow.

#13s? Want to see #13s eh??? HEH HEH HEH.

Capo

Don't worry about bands, they don't get touched when they are in the middle of terminal penetration.

You need to be like me, take a pill for those sort of things!

Michael