He will need that gas station bathroom to clean up his shorts he just soiled lol

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hunter in croc-infested water, hippo on dry land ...
An old favorite from Uganda 2007 at Murchison Park


Jim: Regarding 404 RIP: Resize the neck of a .395 Tatanka and seat bullet using a .423 Dakota-Lapua die set.
Voila! 404/.416 Rigby Improved Plus.

quote:

Jim

OK, I am on board now, just a little lost and understand now what you are talking about. Yes, you are correct, at one time these were the benchmarks that many cartridges were designed to achieve, the 458 Winchester comes to mind.
……………
Over the years you see discussions about "What Cartridge is Best for _______" or "What Rifle is best for ____", but it is rare that the bullet is ever mentioned in these discussions, and that seems rather odd to me, as it is the bullet that does all the work in the end? I suppose it's just fun to discuss cartridges and rifles, but bullets can be somewhat boring to some?

These discussion are actually lot's of fun, and provoke some thought process as well, I too enjoy, What Cartridge, What Rifle, however the very second the thought of a cartridge enters my mind, it's "What Bullet for that cartridge and mission I intend to embark upon?" One cannot stop with merely this cartridge or that rifle, it's a package deal of all three, Cartridge-Rifle-Bullet, and not necessarily in that order either!

Michael,

I was just enjoying a quick respite from the heat and humidity…and from painting so my answer to Cross’ question wasn’t as clear or cogent as it could/should have been. LOL… Anyway from yours and Sam’s, as well as Mike70560’s test work it has definitely been proven that regardless of the cartridge’s historical penetration reputation…use of a modern properly designed bullet can change that reputation! It’s all about the bullet and the bullet’s design! Well it’s getting late and I have more painting to do tomorrow so time to sign off.

Keep up the reports...looking forward to all the photos when you get home. Enjoy the balance of your vacation!

Michael,

You are just having too much fun!!!! Great stuff!

Sam

quote:

As talked about before on this subject, it seems to me the blades on frontal is getting to the heart and doing extensive damage within the heart as they are shearing and ripping right along with the bullet, dispersing after leaving the heart on a frontal shot. From Broadside the blades have already dispersed far enough from center wound channel to be ripping as individual projectiles into lungs and other vitals.

This is great news.
With this kind of damage to a cape buff is there any reason to go with a conventional soft anymore? Could a conventional soft do as much damage? Deeper penetration and more damage. With a good shot what animal could go more than 50 yards. This could save a lot of trips in the thick stuff after a dangerous wounded animal. It's one heck of a meat grinder of a bullet.

Boom stick;

Love that terminology..."meat grinder bullet"

Hugh

Hello boys! Well aintt n no shape to give you no reports tonight! HEHH... I have bene at it since somethjing like 11 am this morning. Have finisehd every Castle and thene some more left in all of South Africa. Don't bother looking for any if you are on the plane now, I have had all that is left!

HEH...../

YIppie!

M

Hey, guess what else, bought a new truck over here today too! I reckon I better be driving it tomorrow as well! Not tongiht for sure!
HEH

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Hello boys! Well aintt n no shape to give you no reports tonight! HEHH... I have bene at it since somethjing like 11 am this morning. Have finisehd every Castle and thene some more left in all of South Africa. Don't bother looking for any if you are on the plane now, I have had all that is left!

HEH...../

YIppie!

M

hahahahahahahahahahahha

Michael,

If you are going to drive that truck home you have to go the long way around to get there.

Sam

Boomy

I think about the only so Called Conventional bullet I will ever use again is the 450gr .500 North Fork in the lever 50 B&M AK. For anything I might do now and in the future, it will be NonCons for everything. Either North Fork CPS or BBW#13 NonCons. I don't do much long range stuff, so for 99% of everything I would do, this will work for me. I will still push Dan a bit on getting us a pointy plastic do it yourself kit for the BBW#13 HPs. I can see I might have a use for that in the 9.3 B&M, and the 255 gr BBW #13 NonCon.

I knew from previous work in the field with similar bullets, and all the test work, these would do well in the field, but they performed even better than my expectations. Damage and trauma inflicted are severe. To me buffalo is the "Ultimate" challenge for any bullet, and these NonCons have out performed anything I have ever seen in the past. These NonCons combined with the BBW#13 Solid is about as good as it gets. The big flat nose solids hit animals hard, do lot's of damage in their own right, and as I witnessed the heart shot elephant at 3 yds and then studied the heart itself, this leaves no doubt in my mind as to what is going on there. That was a big hit on that elephants heart from that BBW#13 .500 caliber solid! Lot's of damage done on entry into the heart, lot's of trauma inflicted upon taking the bullet too! I have seen and have done heart shots on other elephants with RN solids. It pokes a tiny hole through and through, there is no trauma to the heart, and zero trauma inflicted upon taking it, merely drilling a hole. Same with buffalo and RN too. Just drilling holes, no trauma, no notice of even taking the bullet! Those who doubt or say different I figure are ignorant or stupid, or both, and you can tell whoever that I SAID as much!

Meat Grinders! For sure! JHC--I never seen anything like it, no one else, including several PHs have seen anything like it either, and I am talking about folks that have seen a lot!

Yes, there was no posting going on last night after I returned from the Country Club for sure! HEH.... Sorry!

Hoping all the money is transferred for the truck today! HEH... Would like to drive it a couple of days anyway before we return for home!

M

Well I suppose this is the last buffalo report I have for you. This was another cow buffalo in another area close by. This was hunting on this one. And these buffalo were wilder than even the ones in Zimbabwe. I actually just got lucky by catching this one out.

Using once again the 458 B&M and the 420 gr BBW#13 NonCon HP. I was presented a broadside through some brush at maybe 30-40 yds. It actually was a tough shot as I picked out a spot through the brush on the shoulder. I got lucky, a perfect hit and the buffalo went 10-15 yds and piled up stone cold. It was a one shot deal, as I had no other shot afterwards the brush was so thick.




Lot's of damage to vitals, blades coming out of the chest cavity in the goo. The bullet exited as designed, and I did take a photo of the exit wound next to my thumb as I was impressed with that.



All this from a 420 gr bullet that shed all the blades and exited. Not bad for a little short tiny 458 caliber rifle!

Michael

Terminal performance is what it's all about !
Thank you for such fresh from memory or hands or almost live reporting of the bullet performance. I think you have enough material here for a good write up in a gun rag to preach to the non choir about these special bullets. That 420 looked like it did a great job! Those 420's smoked them I can see the heading. "Smoking 420"

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Hey, guess what else, bought a new truck over here today too! I reckon I better be driving it tomorrow as well! Not tongiht for sure!
HEH

M

So where's the pictures of this new truck?

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
So where's the pictures of this new truck?

It's sitting outside now. I will get some photos in the morning, it's zero dark thirty here now! And near my bedtime! HEH.....

M

Well after 7 buffalo total with the NonCons I am convinced that these bullets are the ticket, and one can take these same bullets in other calibers and get the same results that I did. We are and have been getting some excellent data from the field on them. Take Mikes experience with the North Fork CPS in .474 caliber on two buffalo. Last fall Doug shot two buffalo with 416 Remington and 330 Lehigh NonCons, my 7 buffalo with BBW#13s NonCons and North Fork .500 caliber CPS. All very successful, and lot's of trauma inflicted, and no buffalo went far at all. Mine went the furthest of any as I recall and none of mine more than 20 yards or so after first proper hit, except for the one I shot through the stomach, and he pulled up short on a poor shot as well. Which says something in and of itself.

As far as I care, the NonCons are a very big success and have performed better than even I expected.

I used only BBW#13 solids on this trip. My North Fork Solids were not within POI of the rest of the bullets, and that is the only reason they were not used. I am very sure they would have been very successful as well. The BBW#13 Solids performed exactly as designed, deep and dead straight penetration. I only found two of them, and in both cases they were nose forward and straight. Everything else exited and as far as I can tell exited dead straight. Both the 500 gr .500 caliber BBW#13 and the 450 gr .458 caliber BBW#13 exhibited doing a lot of internal damage to vitals, and both left bigger than normal exit wounds. I can't ask for better performance. There is no where left to go with this as I see it. I can't even imagine how to improve on this performance.

Just got word today, I have some 550 gr BBW#13 Solids in .500 caliber on the way. I will be testing these in the 500 MDM for both high end velocity, pressures, and of course terminals once the data is completed. This will be interesting to me, and we should be seeing SD have some effect maybe. We have some good terminals with the 500 gr bullet at a few different velocities, so should be some interesting tests and the proponents of SD may see this being a factor again in these tests, but to what effect?

Now that I am extremely satisfied with effects on large dangerous game, buffalo, hippo and elephant there is but one remaining question for me to answer, and that is the effects of the NonCons on various thin skinned animals. I am 99.9% sure of this right now, but I want to see it first hand myself. This is one major activity that I was not able to accomplish on this trip. I wanted to plant a few wildebeast with the normal NonCons, and of course the so called Lion Bullet--which I did get one waterbuck to fall too. Right now I am thinking to return back to South Africa with Andrew, maybe April or May and do a complete study on nothing but thin skinned game as well. I have some things in mind and some adjustments possibly on the lion bullet. And also I want to see exactly how the current NonCons that hammer buffalo so good work on thin skinned game as well.

Michael

quote:

Just got word today, I have some 550 gr BBW#13 Solids in .500 caliber on the way. I will be testing these in the 500 MDM for both high end velocity, pressures, and of course terminals once the data is completed. This will be interesting to me, and we should be seeing SD have some effect maybe. We have some good terminals with the 500 gr bullet at a few different velocities, so should be some interesting tests and the proponents of SD may see this being a factor again in these tests, but to what effect?

Yep will be most interesting. I guess instead of driving 7' through a buffalo from stim to stern and poking out its ass-end...it'll just leave a hole at both ends! Extra holes at both ends??

I am going to ask three wishes of Genie Michael458.

1- Michael gets interested in:
http://www.bradshawgunandrifle..._Double_Rifle_1B.php

2- Michael takes advantage of
the fact that this D/R can handle
any pressure that a Win B/A can;
and he develops rimmed cartridges
that give 2400 fps and basically
mimic his 500 MDM and his smaller
rimless cart's.

3- Specifically that Michael takes
a 450 #2 NE piece of brass, opens it
to a straight, tapered contour, and
sticks a .4985" diameter CEB BBW #13
flat point in it, at what ever weight
he determines to be perfect for elephant,
(550 gr = .316 SD) and he names it the
.498 "Something" to cut the stinkin' pol-
iticians off at the knees who think .5"
caliber and up equals pure evil.

IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK? REALLY?
IS - THAT - TOO - MUCH - TO - ASK !?!?!?!?!?


(Note: This rifle can be built with
removable bbls; so I think one can
order multiple sets in different calibers.
Bbls can be changed out of the non-
take-down version too; but that's a
clearly bigger project of course.)

Hey here is the little truck!





We had the other Nissan for nearly 10 yrs, and it was either decide to keep it or maybe get a decent trade in with it. We did pretty good, paid a total of $12'000 for the old one 10 yrs ago, when the Rand was 10 or 11 to 1. We ended up getting a tad more than $9000 for the old one, so it cost us around $3000 for 10 yrs, not too bad. Hopefully this one will do another 10 yrs!

M

This is another bullet report I got from Dan this week. Some plains game and the CEB .308 caliber bullets. While not big bore, they are NonCons, and may have some bearing on RIPs new .395 pointy bullets.

My brother-in-law just got back from South Africa and he killed the normal
plains game animals with our .308 180gr bullets with a 30-06. He has a lot
of pictures so we will be getting the pictures on our web site when I get
them from him. He killed a Kudu at 400 yards and the bullet broke both front
shoulders and passed through and could not be recovered. He did recover one
bullet out of a warthog that was shot at a sharp quartering angle. The
bullet entered behind the last rib, traveled completely through and was
found at the base of the skull. Of course the pig went straight down. The
bullet did not expand much and only back to the depth of the hollow point.
The petals were blown off probably when going through the spine twice. I was
surprised it did not split since it entered the guts but apparently the
hollow point is getting plugged up by the hide not allowing much hydraulic
pressure to split the bullets like it does on deer and elk. Is the hide on
African animals a lot thicker than North American animals? He also shot a
Zebra quartering away and he said the bullet somehow took out quite a few
ribs on entry and broke the far front shoulder. It reared up, fell over and
rolled down a hill never getting up again. The butchers forgot to save the
bullet so we did not get a chance to see what it looked like. He shot a
Gemsbok and again was quartering slightly away at 150 yards. The bullet
entered behind the facing front shoulder and passed through the far shoulder
breaking it dropping it in its tracks. Since it passed through the bullet
was not recovered. They also shot 3 Impala and all were pass through shots
and all dropped to the shot.


More NonCons, win the day!

Michael

Paul has a fellow coming down to Australia for buffalo sometime soon. He is shooting a 404 J and is wanting some BBW#13s for it. I have not had any done yet because I have not had much call for them. But I am going to do a run of .423s when I get back for this fellow. Anyone else like some? And if so, or even if not, what weights do you think we need to run? 400 BBW#13 SOlid and Matching NonCon, 370 gr? If not, then what?

Michael

quote:

and may have some bearing on RIPs new .395 pointy bullets
...
He killed a Kudu at 400 yards
...

There you have it. Sometimes a person needs an accurate, flat-shooting bullet.
If I were hunting with a 49 Lapua and had a 400 yard shot on a nice animal I would want to be confident that the rifle-bullet was up to it.

It's just the way I've always hunted. Hey, I've successfully bow-hunted with spot and stalk so I know about getting close, but I also know about spooking animals and losing a shot. So "reach out and touch someone ... hard" is also a good backup plan.

PS: That's a nice looking car. My son could use one. The Nissan is stable.

Jim

Concerning the 500 MDM and the 550 BBW#13 vs the 500 gr BBW#13, yes, you are correct, there really is very little point in doing a 550 as the 500 is so good, and the 500 does very good in the 50 B&M at 2150 fps. I think it is more me being curious than anything, as I know there is no need for the extra weight, and even more than possible I am better served with the extra velocity of the 500 gr bullet in the "Hitting Hard Up Front" dept. But there are some folks that have not grasped this yet, and would like to compare the 500 MDM to the various .510s out there that use the 570s. They too might be better served with something like a 525 BBW#13.

Now, that 7 ft of buffalo. Must remember, that was not chest to ass, that was nose to ass, and that included going through the neck as well. Chest to ass would have exited for sure. Old buff had his nose pointed directly at me.


Jack

You know, that rifle you have showing looks pretty good to me, I think I like that better than the traditional break open style. I suppose one could have "Winchester" stamped or engraved on that somewhere? HEH.......

But this project of yours may be a very expensive undertaking! Right now, I still have plenty to do, so I have not become bored quite yet! LOL............



Now, seems I am headed home tomorrow night! Get on the plane home I think 8 pm or so tomorrow evening. So I must spend today and what is left of tomorrow throwing crap in bags and getting RTG--Ready to Go. Everyone is looking forward to getting home! Me too, but dread the mess I have to catch up on when returning, back to work you might say, and I am not looking forward to that.

I am pretty sure I have covered the terminals on everything I have been working on with the exception of the last animal, the waterbuck. As you know I have a keen interest in the so called "Lion Bullet" that I played with some. I had Dan take a .500 caliber 460 BBW#13 NonCon and deepen the cavity all the way to .800 deep, instead of the normal .400 deep. This created a entirely different dynamic in terminal performance, the bullet came out to 425 grs. I loaded some of these up in the 500 MDM, nominal velocity at 2500 fps plus or minus a few fps. When we tested this it was like a grenade in the test medium, but still having good penetration, I think to 18-20 inches depending on how it broke up. Good penetration, and I think plenty for thin skinned animals, but I would not quite trust this bullet on buffalo. While it would most likely do great, I would just not do it or recommend it's use for that.

Andrew and I busted our tails to get some wildebeast on the menu, but it was not to be on the area we were, they were just to wild to get close enough to for a decent test. Nearing the end, we busted a waterbuck, still a bit far for my liking at 106 yds. But it was this, or possibly nothing as time was near, in fact, it was the last evening of our stay!

At the shot the waterbuck went down immediately, and while he tried to get up, he could not do so. I did not put a finishing shot in. After the deed, upon inspection I found two exits about 4 inches apart on the far side from entrance. Two! And one was horribly wicked and large.




It was zero dark thirty when Andrew and I were able to get the animal back for processing. And this had to be done mostly in the dark as well. When the vitals were removed the lungs were a horrible mess. In fact they were in pieces. One large piece of lung, larger than my fist, had been sliced completely off. The heart was untouched, but across the top was sheared completely and all the arteries were sheared. Massive blood loss occurred and much of that went out that larger exit hole you see above. The far shoulder had been broken as well. Under the bad conditions of the processing we could find no parts of the bullet. In my opinion the bullet did exactly what it was designed to do, and parts of it exited as well, which is even better to me.




I truly wished I could have got more data on thin skinned animals that this. But, it gives us something to consider, and work on in the near future too. When I can get in, get things sorted out, I am going to give this "Lion Bullet" a bit more investigation. Andrew states that this sort of bullet would for sure keep lost animals to a minimum from even bad shots. I suspect he is correct on that point considering the damage that I witnessed. Of course it requires more test work, and more field work to confirm these sort of things, but this type bullet is looking like just the ticket for our thin skinned dangerous game, lion, bear, and smaller cats, leopard. Unlike other attempts with a bullet like this, which actually was and is a dangerous bullet to use, this bullet has penetration. With penetration, it's hard to fail! Penetration, first, everything else second. While I don't trust the penetration on thick skinned game, buffalo, I do trust it on thin skinned. And, if one was in a pinch, I damn sure would pop a buff with one, if I had to do so! Then quickly follow up of course. So even if you got caught out, you would not be in the crap house.

Good stuff, I am excited about the prospects of this "Lion Bullet" for many tasks. But it is going to take some more work no doubt.

Well, suppose that is the last report I have from the field. This should give you guys a couple of days worth of pondering I reckon!

Michael

Doc M,
Good stuff, all of your stuff!
The proof is in the pudding found inside that waterbuck chest cavity.

And giving us something new to ponder too: "404" bullets!

You know, I have that last stupid wildcat of mine to finish up: 404 RIP
Sign me up for some .423 bullets from CEB!

Jim is hot on the trail of some .423 Dakota-Lapua dies,
like the ones I picked up from Dakota Arms in Sturgis, South Dakota,
on 4/3/2006, made by Redding.
He has also laid in some 200 or 300 pieces of .423 Dakota-Lapua brass.
I do believe he will be needing some CEB and North Forks too!

Bullet weight for .423 noncon:

North Fork makes 380-grainers, and now 430-grainers too, in copper, FPS and CPS.

North Fork softs are 340 and 380 grains, lead nose bonded in solid copper.
Brass can be a little lighter than the heaviest "aboves."

I would vote for:
brass NonCon hollowpoint of 340 to 370 grains
brass BBW#13 FN solid of 370 to 400 grains
whatever in that range works out to make the two bullets near identical in length.
That is for Dan to fine tune.

Good to hear the .308/180 CEB FBH works so well in a 30-06.
Good omen for the .395/240-grain pointy at 2900 to 3200 fps.

404 barrel groove diameters vary:

Pac-Nor and Lothar Walther; .423"
Krieger: .424"
McGowen: .425"

Bullet diameter?
No smaller than .423"?

Twists: 10" to 14"

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Paul has a fellow coming down to Australia for buffalo sometime soon. He is shooting a 404 J and is wanting some BBW#13s for it. I have not had any done yet because I have not had much call for them. But I am going to do a run of .423s when I get back for this fellow. Anyone else like some? And if so, or even if not, what weights do you think we need to run? 400 BBW#13 SOlid and Matching NonCon, 370 gr? If not, then what?

Michael

Interesting question…and you’ll likely get some arguments regardless of what is selected.

I was going to recommend bullet weights lighter than the standard weights; instead I checked the NF and GSC websites. NF offers .423 caliber 380gr and 430gr CPS and FPS bullets as well as 340gr and 380gr SS bullets and GSC offers .423 caliber 387gr FN Solid and 320gr HV bullets. So, going with CEB BBW #13 .423 caliber 400gr FN Solid and 370gr HP NonCon bullets should work just fine.

And, after RIP and Max test run and fine tune their .395 caliber 240gr CEB FBH HP bullets (so we know whether or not the small HP will plug or not) then the .423 caliber might require a 360gr CEB FBH HP to give some reach to the caliber; regardless it’s a candidate for a polymer tip insert.

And yes, I’m in for 13 boxes of each.

Dang RIP... you squealed on me!

And yes, I could go with the weights RIP stated...

Jim,
Was it a secret?
That .423/380-grain North Fork soft was a one-shot killer of a big bull bison for me.
A solid side-on chest shot, over the top of the heart, the bull took 8 steps spewing lung tissue and blood out of the entrance hole, and dropped dead.
80-yard range, 2525 fps MV from a 404 Jeffery.
Yes, a 370-ish-grain brass NonCon and a 400-ish-grain BBW#13 in brass would be more than enough.
My Harry McGowen made barrels slugged about .4245" and are 1:10" twist, did well with full .423"-diameter bullets of all weights I tried.
I ought to be able to handle .423" brass bullets perfectly, any weight.
Now let us ponder a while during the bon voyage home.
Parts for the 404 RIP are going to Rusty McGee tomorrow, er, uh, this morning.
and I am picking up the rehabilitated Lucretia Borgia 50/70 Govt.
She is 143 years old, Grand Old Dame. ZZZZZ

RIP and Jim

Yes, I think it's a good idea, we can ponder this until next week, and then we can do what we need to do. I will assume that a standard Nose to Mouth is fine, I forget the exact length, but .700 something. This works in the standard B&Ms fine, should work in anything you have. BBW#13s. We can do two different weights if you want. Something like a 400/370---and then a lighter one if you want, 350/320 maybe? North Fork does have a heavy, but it's not needed at all. They are doing that for some of the SD believers still out there. 400 is plenty heavy. So whatever you guys decide. I know that once I see the bullets I might have to consider 425 B&M? HEH.... Just because of the bullet!

Michael

RIP,
Nope...it was no secret. I’ll have 300 cases on Tuesday. Just a pita finding the dies and finish reamer but should have that settled by mid-week.

Which barrel maker are you going with? I’m leaning towards Krieger, if they’ll cut it with a 1:10” twist rate. Otherwise guess I’ll take to Pac-Nor about a new button.

Michael and RIP,
Rather than just setting a weight specification, what about just setting an overall bullet length for the FN Brass Solid and HP NonCon…say somwhere between (Edited) 1.340" and 1.440” overall length? Use the new improved shank to HP diameter ratio and a depth for an approximately 30gr weight difference, standard upper band to Meplat length (for the B&M cartridge), and NE banding (for RIP’s full length Rigby cartridge)? Maybe something along these lines? Work the overall length and upper band to meplat to accomodate the B&M and we can use the NF bullets if heavier is needed?

Time to crash.

Ok…what a decent night’s sleep will do for you.

Nice truck Michael…forgot to mention that last night after you posted it.

The .30 caliber 180gr CEB FBH HP is likely to heavy as a monometal for the30-06; needs to be 150gr for the ’06 and the 165gr for magnum cartridges. My rational…I followed a 4+ year tracking of the .30 caliber TSX bullet performance from the PH’s ’06 client rifle on African plains game on another forum (though I haven’t followed since early last year)…hundreds of bullets recovered from plains game shot at distances from 100yds out to about 300yds. Started out using the “traditional” heavier 180gr bullets then went to the 165gr bullet for a few years, then finally to the “US whitetail deer” 150gr bullet for the last 18-months or so… Anyway, the 180gr TSX was to heavy in monometal to give consistent expansion from the ’06 as the range got longer…the 165gr TSX was pretty darn good at expansion at long distances but even it failed to open up consistently as the distances exceeded 250yds…so the 150gr TSX was tried and it not only performed perfectly at up close ranges but consistently expanded in the longer 250yd-300yd shots. It seems like the client hunter as well as the PH need to pay much closer attention to bullet impact velocity at the “longest possible” shooting distance and either downsize the weight of the bullet or upsize the powder capacity of the cartridge when dealing with properly constructed monometal bullets. Just something to think about.

Michael…very nice performance from your lion bullet! Most definitely needs additional follow up testing.

Michael and RIP…
I’m kind of ambivalent about the weights of the .423 CEB BBW #13 FN and HP NonCon and you guys work that out as you’ll have the shortest (possibly) and longest of the two cartridges… Mine is built on a standard action length M98 Mauser and it’ll have plenty of bullet room in the magazine box…heck, using the upper seating groove to Meplat length from the 500gr .500 caliber BBW #13 FN and it’d almost fit within a M70 WSM magazine…most definitely will fit within an intermediate length M98 Mauser action without lengthening the magazine box – just have to widen that sucker front and rear!!! LOL…

So…do a single weighted pair or do a dual weighted pair…penetration and performance will be awesome either way. Either way will work for me so make them work for you.

jim

Way back in the day, in 30 calibers, mostly 300 Winchester, I too used 165 gr bullets, almost exclusively. I did have a 300 Dakota once. It was my monkey rifle. I played with it here in South Africa, that was maybe 2000 or so, long time ago. I used a 165 Nosler BT as a light bullet for impala, pigs, monkeys and such, and a 200 Swift A frame in which I shot zebra, wildebeast and such. This combination worked very good for those sort of things. I also used a 165 Swift A on some red stag in New Zealand one year, worked great. All this was before the TSX bullet.

30 is too boring now. Have not shot one in years.

Yeah so far the little truck is very nice, and a good upgrade from our old Hardbody. I have photos of it somewhere, when I get home I will post the old truck too. Of course it did very well and I have no complaints. The new one is a little larger, more power, and drives great. OF course Momma has been doing most of the driving and has laid claim to it! HEH..... What Momma Wants............. Yeah, You are correct if you guessed "Momma Gets" LOL.......

The "Lion Bullet"----whew, it makes a mess I tell you. It is exactly like an explosion has occurred inside, shrapnel flying in all directions it seems, and tearing large chunks of vitals off, out, destroyed. I promise one piece of lung tissue completely torn out the size of my fist, never seen anything like that, and a waterbuck is not a small animal. It literally knocked it down off it's feet. That smaller exit looks small, but it is only small because of the larger exit was so big. No worries on this, I am all over it and will be working on that for some time to come to get just the right formula that I am looking for.

The .423s, well right now to make .423 as versatile as possible and give lot's of options in this caliber, I would say we need at least 2 sets of BBW#13s. A light set and a heavy set. This, combined with the North Fork selection will do anything in .423 one needs to do. How Light? How Heavy? On the heavy set I think of heavy stuff, and buffalo at the top with the NonCon--I would go 400 Solid and 370 NonCon for the heavy work. Light work, including thin skinned DG, lion, bear and such, along with plains game, elk, moose and so forth. Maybe a 350 Solid and 320 NonCon will turn the trick there, this would give one some velocity I would think with various cartridges, and NonCons love velocity, a 320 NonCon at velocity would be incredible I think. Hell, just my thoughts, I don't even own anything in .423. I am sure we can sort it out!

Later

Michael

quote:

It seems like the client hunter as well as the PH need to pay much closer attention to bullet impact velocity at the “longest possible” shooting distance and either downsize the weight of the bullet or upsize the powder capacity of the cartridge when dealing with properly constructed monometal bullets.

Well said, Jim, good advice.
Of course, the non-cons are brittle and appear to 'blow' at very modest velocities.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael458[QOUTE] OF course Momma has been doing most of the driving and has laid claim to it! HEH..... What Momma Wants............. Yeah, You are correct if you guessed "Momma Gets" LOL.......

Michael

Michael

You were warned about the Shampoo Hair Goddess-



SSR

CrossL

Damn, I forgot all about that shampoo deal! Crap, now see how much that shampoo really cost me in the end now!

Michael,

Thank you for acknowledging the specialness of
Bradshaw's doubles! Ruger #1 rifles may of course
be used for any/all cartridge experimenting at tar-
gets; and some times on game too with back-up.
WAY lower cost. hubel458 has the 499 HE; which
essentially IS what I described in my third wish.
I don't think though that he ever experimented
with it in any other action other than a break
open. All various brass used could be made to be
straight walled and tapered, long life, multi, multi,
multi time reload friendly, what's NOT to love? You
might become a D/R CONVERT!!! Heh Heh!

I will come over and scratch "WINCHESTER" onto your
Bradshaw built Farquy D/R when you receive it. No
charge! HEH!

quote:

Hell, just my thoughts, I don't even own anything in .423. I am sure we can sort it out!

Heck I don't have anything in .423 either...at the moment anyway!

I'd say you're right on regarding the weights. Might make the recommendation to do the NE' 3-upper band banding on the heavier bullets and recommend the standard BA 3-upper band banding on the lighter weight bullets.

You'll have a PM when you get back.

quote:

I will come over and scratch "WINCHESTER" onto your
Bradshaw built Farquy D/R when you receive it. No
charge! HEH!

I imagine Mr. Bradshaw would engrave "Michael's Winchester DR" somewhere on it!

Or build one on a M-21 frame----





SSR

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

It seems like the client hunter as well as the PH need to pay much closer attention to bullet impact velocity at the “longest possible” shooting distance and either downsize the weight of the bullet or upsize the powder capacity of the cartridge when dealing with properly constructed monometal bullets.

Well said, Jim, good advice.
Of course, the non-cons are brittle and appear to 'blow' at very modest velocities.

Tan,

Yes but the BBW #13 NonCons require a good balance of material composition, a large diameter meplat, and a properly sized large diameter HP to assure the petals will shear at a modest impact velocity.

The TSX bullets are designed to expand rather than shear their petals...a combination function of their, small diameter meplat, small diameter HP, and the composition of the monometal. The TSX bullet's design makes it very sensitive to bullet weight and impact velocity to assure proper petal expansion. I believe this is why Barnes came up with the TTSX (Tipped TSX) bullets with a slightly larger diameter meplat and HP...the polymer tip insert is supposed to assist with petal expansion at lower impact velocities...with a byproduct of actually increasing the BC of the bullet for better long range performance.

Dan's CEB FBH (Flat Base Hunting) HP spitzer bullets have a small diameter meplat, a very small diameter HP, and are constructed from copper rather than brass...and they're designed to expand rather than shear their petals. The FBH HP bullet design makes it very sensitive to bullet weight and impact velocity to assure proper petal expansion as well.

It's sort of an apple and oranges comparison...and part of the reason a few of us are truly looking forward to the polymer tip insert for the BBW #13s to improve their BC while maintaining their moderate velocity petal shearing capability. At least that's the whole idea.

Well...break is over...back to painting.

Michael:

On Monday, I am going to call Belt Mountain Enterprises and order a few of their 400 grain Punch Bullets to try in my 45-70 and my 450 Marlin. I am wondering if they will provide better penetration than the Barnes Buster Bullets. I know you are swamped but I was wondering if I send you a few, could you test them in your 45-70 for me?

Thank you for your hunt reports. They were fantastic. I think that I have concluded that your dry testing media is way tougher than actual bones and flesh so anything that provides even reasonably good penetration in your test media will provide more than adequate penetration in the field.

Doc M and Jim,
You are both making good sense to me on the .423-caliber brass bullets from CEB.
Two pairs of bullets is ambitious.
But that sounds great.
I do like the idea of the Nitro Express banding (4 bands equidistantly spaced) for the heavy pair,
as well as the B&M band spacing for the lighter pair.

400-gr BBW#13 FN and 370-gr NonCon HP: NE banded
350-gr BBW#13 FN and 320-gr NonCon HP: B&M banded

Each pair would share the same length between FN and HP, like current CEB pairs, within a few thou.

Quite the nice pair of pairs.

A CEB FBH copper bullet might be nice too, in the 320 to 340-gr weight range.

2700 fps with the North Fork 340-grain SP is no problem in my 404 Jeffery with McGowen barrel.
Just takes 87.6 grains of Varget IIRC.
I have yet to see what the 404 RIP does, but I will probably just add more Varget and find out.