boom stick,
I thought you thought that.
It was not the 460-grain NonCon Shredder that did the 7 feet of penetration.
It had to be the solid, 500-grainer.
That is the current combo Doc M is using, eh?

460-grain SD = 0.263, as you pointed out, and less after the petals blow off.

500-grain SD = 0.286, and maintained throughout penetration, shoulder stabilized by the excellent BBW#13 FN of minimally deforming brass.

Was that Sam's idea, that nose shape?
I am wild about it now for sure!

Looks like soft and solid were used.
NonCon would not penetrate as deeply as the solid.

I have shot GSC FN copper solids into the buttock and out the throat of a big bull bison.
.510-caliber/570-grainer impacting about 2400 fps.
One while he was on the run, Texas Heart Shot.
One after he was dead on the ground, just to see if it would fully penetrate again.
It did, from tail to tonsils about 8 feet!!!


Doc M's quote:
************************************************************************************************
Here is a closeup of the two shots to the head. Neither hit the brain of course, both were rather hasty shots. The 460 NonCon
blew a hole inside the skull under his eye big enough to fit your fist into easy. Found blades inside the skull.
For some reason we never recovered the remaining bullet, and now I can't recall as why?

The 500 BBW #13 solid was found sticking out the rear end, nose forward, and according to the guys dead straight.

It had traversed the skull, neck, through all insides and vitals, stomach the works. 6-7 feet or so I reckon. Plenty good!
************************************************************************************************

BTW,
I think one of the extraordinary gentlemen ought to do a Quigley Down Under style number on the water buffalo using a .50 B&M Alaskan,
and wear a Stetson while doing it.
I am just as smitten by that .50 B&M Alaskan Marlin as Layne Simpson,
and I don't even live in South Carolina.
But I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express in Johnson City, Tennessee a week and a half ago.

GOOD MORNING Fr lovely Pt St Johns South Africa.

At least it is morning as I start this post, once again actually offline and probably take half the day or more to get this done and posted.

We are having a great time thus far relaxing a bit, visiting with Momma's Pa, and he is such a character. Yesterday he had a fishing charter with some guys that drove a long way to get here. Day before, the weather was not going to be good with heavy seas. Of course we know how the weather changes, and by morning that all had changed and the weather was good to go. He called his guys early and they did not want to go thinking the weather was bad. He told them, they still did not want to go. Hell with it he says, I will go anyway, so off he goes fishing with his crew! LOL.... Eating and drinking like kings here. Some sort of fantastic fish first night, beef steaks second night, last night lobster on the grill! Holy cow! Fantastic, I may have to buy an extra ticket on the plane home I am going to be so big!



Hi Gary, and a great big welcome to both AR, and of course the TBP thread. We are happy to have you, and please, don't just lurk, join in, and let us also add your experiences to our data base. We learn from each other, and here gathered is probably the biggest group of Big Bore shooters from all over the world, each with great amounts of experience in direct and related areas of shooting.

Now as to your 450/400 and .410 caliber. Since there was so many different actual bore sizes for this cartridge, Sam decided that .409 was a good place to be with the bullets. I agree, and it is very common for many mono bullets to be .001 under, that is zero issue and not a problem. If I recall correctly I have a stash of .409s, brand new NONCONs with the larger diameter cavity, and some solids as well. I bet you a 6 pack of Castles that those .409s will shoot great and be very accurate in your rifle. PLease, remind me when I get home, I will get a box on the way to you, but you are going to have to remind me as I forget things! Dont' be shy either. In addition to the CEBs North Fork is planning a new 400 Premium bonded to go with the mix as well. Between Dan at Cutting Edge, and our North Fork boys, big bore serious hunting bullets are covered completely, there is no need to look further, and not only this, but both these companies are DEDICATED to this mission, and top concerns are performance in the field! This is the difference between our guys at CEB and North Fork, and all the rest! Oh and we can convert one of those 1895s of yours to .500 caliber too.
Give you a real big bore! HEH....

We as big bore shooters, and hunters need to support these guys as much as we can. Spread the word on this and take it further and beyond this thread. Talk to your contacts, talk to your people, and get the word out on this. These guys need to make a living too, and we need them to do so, we need these bullets so that we are successful on our own endeavors. Blah blah blah....... I will try and not get carried away! HEH.....


Paul

Agreed, and the 500 MDM turned out to be exactly that. We can get away with about anything we want to do. On this trip I did not use max loads at all--I downloaded on purpose, as one does not need the full potential of this cartridge in the field. Better I reckon to be at lower pressures, also not going to lie, I handle the rifle better at reasonable velocities, and yes, can very very easy get more than what you need in 19-20 inches of barrel.

I also like the little 9.3 B&M. When I get home I have a new SC Winchester waiting that has not been fired yet. Currently I am planning on Mark David working with one of these when we visit along with maybe a 458 Super Short. Thinking that I will have him use the 255 NonCon and it's matching 280 BBW#13 in 9.3. In the 458 B&M the North Fork 325 CPS--and the 325 BBW#13.

And while I am at it other thoughts; Matthew will carry either a 50 Super Short or 475 Super Short, or both depending on if Sam brings a 50 Super Short there is no need for Matt to carry one. I want all the Super Shorts there for testing.

Then as RIP points out, the 50 B&M Alaskan Lever gun has to go to the field, it's been too long coming, I have held it on the back burner long enough, time for it to show it's stuff for the lever fans! The new North Fork Premium Bonded 450 gr top of the list, combined with various BBW#13s. My second rifle will be the new 475 B&M no doubt about it, new 450 BBW#13 and matching NonCon at 420. Also will for sure be using the New North Fork FPS and CPS right along side.

Much of this might change a bit depending on this and that, but that is the tentative plan today!

Speaking of this, RIP, yes on this mission with the 500 MDM primary bullets were the 460 BBW#13 NonCon 2450 fps and matched with the 500 BBW#13 Solid 2380 fps. I did use on one buff the 450 North Fork CPS 2450 fps too. On the one waterbuck I was able to test the DEEP CAVITY Lion bullet which I had a few left over as my one and only thin skinned test, recall the bullet is the same length, same bullet as the 500-460--deep .800 cavity brings it to 425 grs. Can't post photos from Pt St Johns because of the slow internet, but all of these were devastating on animal tissue from waterbuck to elephant.

quote:

BTW, that 500 MDM bullet that penetrated the buffalo from forehead to buttock skin, sticking out the rear,
that was a 500-grain BBW#13 like offered currently on the CEB website, wasn't it?

RIP--Exactly the same!

"Homer Buckets" I love it. This ain't RIPs first rodeo either! He's been in the test business a while too. Very much agreed, all NonCons like velocity, part of the reason of Non Conventional. I find the BBW#13 Solid Likes velocity as well.


450 NE, about time you came out of the closet!! LOL........ Mike I look forward to our visit coming up when I return, a week or so of catching up, and then we make a plan and get Sam down too for a few days, and yes Sam you can move into the "Bat Cave" a few days! I am hoping that the 475 dies are in, and we can all go to work on that to some extent, and that North Fork has been busy with the new 474 caliber FPS and CPS bullets as well!!! We need to hook up a strain gage on the 475s also and start things off right. Plus all the other things we can get started on as well, there is plenty to do. Bring your doubles as well, I know Sam will bring half dozen or so, and hoping the 577 is back by then maybe too! If I don't have dies for some of these, bring them, I have most powders and plenty of primers too. So no worries and have all sorts of bullets as well.


Boomy and RIP---The 500 BBW#13 was the deep diving nose to ass buffalo penetration, also exited elephant broadside and angle to.

Nose shape Sam did come with--I handed him a sample that had a 15 degree angle, very good in and of itself. Sam took those from 10 degree all the way to 20 degree. #13 Was the Best in Show! Sam is the man!


Also, yes, I think it's time to show the 50 B&M AK to the world as well. I will make a plan to take it down under and slam buffalo with it myself! We now have many bullets, designed specifically for the 50 B&M AK and made to order through the short action of the Marlin, and works even better in the M71s larger action. I suppose fans of this can thank Layne for getting me off my ass and putting some more effort into the 50 B&M AK--as I have for sure paid more attention to the other cartridges in the bolt guns, leaving it behind in the past. Rest assured, I am all over this thing, and doing pressure traces as well on the Marlins to keep them safe and get the max out of the cartridge and rifle, keeping things under 45000 PSI. Particular the North Fork Premium at 450 grs specifically for the 50B&M AK, lion and bear bullet extreme, I expect 2000 fps in 18 inches of barrel easy, maybe more, pressure trace will tell for sure! Then a new 405 BBW#13 Solid and matching 370 NonCon, hammers I tell you, hammers!


I must say however I will have to learn to be conservative, as I do get carried away with a lever gun! We know here I love to shoot, and I always like to shoot something a lot! HEH..... Way back when I hammered a couple of bison with an 1886 in 45/70 the fellow asked, "Why did you shoot him so many times?" I just looked up and stated, he was still moving, shoot'em again! I don't know what the issue was at the time, I only shot the one 5 times and the other 3 times? Damn, I went all that way to South Dakota and still only shot 8 rounds!

Johnson City is close enough to count! You are in! HEH.....

Advice, anyone that wants a 50 B&M AK on the Marlin get the pistol grip stock version, not the guide gun version. Reason being that stock is more straight line with the bore, handles better, less muzzle rise too. No, you don't need a brake or anything either. Capable of 500 gr bullets (excellent Hornady bullet) at 1850 in 18 inches, and I forget the rest honestly, go to the website and download the latest data that I posted after working with Layne on it. I am interested in seeing what these new 405BBW#13s solids are going to do in the rifles too. DOn't forget, I have a pile of 425 Copper BBW#13s and 400 gr NonCons in Copper to go with the 50 BM AK as well. There are so many good bullets to work with in this cartridge--for every day use the 400 Sierra is very very excellent up to around 2100 fps, I used this bullet in 2006 on wildebeast and other critters, it hammers. 500 Hornady at 1850 fps is a big hammer, and the one bullet at that time that if I could get to work in the 50 B&M AK was all I cared about doing. And it does. Now, I believe the new 450 NOrth Fork premium will take the place of these as a super bullet, and 2000 + will be the goal. Big hammer!

Diameter does in fact matter and makes a hell of a difference. Way back 2006 I was taking these loads to Africa with Andrew at the time, all working in 45/70 velocities. I really expected something like 45/70 performance (sorry guys, a little ho-hmmm in my opinion) which is decent performance, but not a big hammer on nothing I ever shot with, and it's been a lot. The .500s at these working velocities really surprised me, animals like wildebeast and zebra were folding up shop on the spot!!!!! It was like looking at 458 Win or even Lott performance, and all because of diameter and caliber I figure! Well, that's my story anyway, sticking to it until I learn better. And as velocity increased with the .500s in the 50 B&M to 2100-2250 fps, things got more impressive, and of course the 500 MDM and velocity from 2300-2500 fps things really started to happen BIG time! So............


Michael

Here's a question that could use some elucidation by tests in July or August.

The surprise in the one buffalo was that the damage had not started to expand much until reaching the heart, though as a consolation they did find petals in the lung goo on the far side of the heart.

Michael mentioned this somewhere in his posts. Apparently the petals got sucked along in the wound channel in the buffalo. So the little mystery for us is why?

Actually, this becomes two questions.
What keeps the petals in the channel?
And secondly, if Michael finds a way to spread the petals out in thick-skinned buffalo, will the petals penetrate as far as these "wound-channel" petals?


I'm just sitting in the bleachers along Highway 61.


God said to Abraham 'kill me a son'
Abe said 'Man, you must be putting me on.
God 'no'.
Abe said, what?,
God said You can do what you want Abe but,
The next you see me coming you better run,
Abe said Where do you want this killing done,
God said Out on highway 61.

quote:

Diameter does in fact matter and makes a hell of a difference. Way back 2006 I was taking these loads to Africa with Andrew at the time, all working in 45/70 velocities. I really expected something like 45/70 performance (sorry guys, a little ho-hmmm in my opinion) which is decent performance, but not a big hammer on nothing I ever shot with, and it's been a lot. The .500s at these working velocities really surprised me, animals like wildebeast and zebra were folding up shop on the spot!!!!! It was like looking at 458 Win or even Lott performance, and all because of diameter and caliber I figure! Well, that's my story anyway, sticking to it until I learn better. And as velocity increased with the .500s in the 50 B&M to 2100-2250 fps, things got more impressive, and of course the 500 MDM and velocity from 2300-2500 fps things really started to happen BIG time! So............


Michael

Cross L,

This is what I mean by comments from the field about the impact of 50 caliber. I believe the reports but do not understand the cause.

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Diameter does in fact matter and makes a hell of a difference. Way back 2006 I was taking these loads to Africa with Andrew at the time, all working in 45/70 velocities. I really expected something like 45/70 performance (sorry guys, a little ho-hmmm in my opinion) which is decent performance, but not a big hammer on nothing I ever shot with, and it's been a lot. The .500s at these working velocities really surprised me, animals like wildebeast and zebra were folding up shop on the spot!!!!! It was like looking at 458 Win or even Lott performance, and all because of diameter and caliber I figure! Well, that's my story anyway, sticking to it until I learn better. And as velocity increased with the .500s in the 50 B&M to 2100-2250 fps, things got more impressive, and of course the 500 MDM and velocity from 2300-2500 fps things really started to happen BIG time! So............


Michael

Cross L,

This is what I mean by comments from the field about the impact of 50 caliber. I believe the reports but do not understand the cause.

The first thing that comes to mind is frontal surface area. I believe Sam has the numbers but as diameterincreases surface area increases dramatically,(now we are back to pie are square ). Is there a tipping point somewhere around .5 in , and if so would the 67-68% meplat on say a .475 reach the same point due to increased effectiveness?

SSR

Is the below the 500 MDM cartridge?
It's called 500 MDM Ultra on ammoguide?

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=704

If they are one and the same does it
head space on it's slight shoulder?

If they are two different cartridges
what are the differences; and how is
head spacing addressed on each?

Tanz

I think, but not 100% sure of this, but I believe I have the answer to your question. I hit the heart direct on I think 4 of the 7 buffalo, memory being that without looking back. For sure, on one of the cows that was shot from broadside with the 500 MDM and 460 BBW#13, the blades sheared before getting to the heart, and only the remaining slug passed through. Two of the cows, one with 458 B&M and the 420 BBW#13, and one with the 500 MDM and the 460 that did so much damage were both frontal shots. One of these I have not been able to report on yet. It's impossible for me to do a photo from where I am currently, just not enough transfer upload power. I reckon the heavier shoulder muscles cause the blades to disperse, more meat to go through, than from a frontal shot on these. A big bull might be some different on a frontal. But I figure these cows are a bit thinner on frontal shots than broadside shots.


IBT and Cross

I reckon it's frontal area as well. Once upon a time I figured 2 ways to transfer trauma to animal tissue, Velocity and Caliber. Now even way back, there is a "Bullet" factor, even among conventional bullets, some seem to transfer more trauma than others. Today I figure there are now 3 ways to transfer trauma to animal tissue---Caliber Velocity NonConventional bullets! There is zero doubt in my mind now--NonCons transfer far more trauma to animal tissue than conventionals. They also cause more noticeable trauma to the animals upon taking the hit. They have the ability to crunch and munch the heavy bone and burn through tissue like driving through butter! I experienced this with the CEBs and the North Fork CPS. These are the finest buffalo busting bullets I have ever used. And it's ONLY with these sort of bullets that I believe with great sincerity that one can ENHANCE a cartridge that may come up short otherwise. In this particular instance of my own, I am thinking of my own little Super Shorts, which are 1.65 inch WSM cases in the Win M70 WSSM rifles, 16 inch barrels. I would go up against ANY thin skinned dangerous game with these little rifles and some of the other bullets I have for them. But I have never considered them buffalo rifles, at least not Cape Buffalo for sure. Now, with North Forks and CEBs, I think that puts them into the more than adequate category-- NOt a fighting buffalo rifle, but most certainly able to do the job, do it well, do it cleanly, the penetration is there with them, and talk about FAST, they are indeed incredibly fast handling, shooting, little guns. Damn, I need to get a 10 rd extended box magazine on them---go to war guns! HEH HEH HEH.........


I am off track somehow, and now lost in my train of thought????

Jack

Yes, listed on ammoguide I did it back then as the 500 MDM Ultra--in fact even engraved on the barrels is 500 MDM Ultra as well. I just call it short, 500 MDM.


Hey, going out fishing tomorrow. I will take lot's of photos! After seeing some of these damned fish the thought had run thru my mind about taking the 458 B&M along! I must tell a bit of a funny on myself from many years ago. I was doing some fishing in a trout stream with my cousin. He's a big time fly guy, and I am more prone to trying to drown worms and such. I am not much of a fisherman, sometimes resorting to several sticks of dynamite in place of a stick and hook! But circumstances found me out in the middle of a river wading along trying to drown worms. Well, I am a fair distance away from my cousin and sure enough a BIG trout hits my worm! HOLY COW, I swear I thought I had jaws on the hook for real. Well, I was carrying a handgun at the time, of course it was a 1911 45 ACP. Well I was busy trying to get jaws landed, when all the sudden JAWS Jumped out of the water coming after me!!!!!!! By pure reflex and not even thinking about reality, I had already drawn the 45 and was about to go to war! By the time I realized how silly I had to look, I very quickly looked around to see that no one had seen this. To late, my cousin was about 50 yds upstream laughing his ass off, while I stood there rod in left hand, 45 acp in the right, and I looked like an idiot! We had a good laugh afterwards! I kinda have doubts that trout was quite as big as I thought it was at the time, but damn, he had no business jumping out of the water like that after me!


Michael

Drew,

I may have to use the neck tension method as well. Crimping between the middle and distal bands makes the C.O.A.L a touch too long for my rifle. Maybe the bands needs to be moved forward a little on the 375 bullets? I can't wait to see these beauties in action!


Clint

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Diameter does in fact matter and makes a hell of a difference. Way back 2006 I was taking these loads to Africa with Andrew at the time, all working in 45/70 velocities. I really expected something like 45/70 performance (sorry guys, a little ho-hmmm in my opinion) which is decent performance, but not a big hammer on nothing I ever shot with, and it's been a lot. The .500s at these working velocities really surprised me, animals like wildebeast and zebra were folding up shop on the spot!!!!! It was like looking at 458 Win or even Lott performance, and all because of diameter and caliber I figure! Well, that's my story anyway, sticking to it until I learn better. And as velocity increased with the .500s in the 50 B&M to 2100-2250 fps, things got more impressive, and of course the 500 MDM and velocity from 2300-2500 fps things really started to happen BIG time! So............


Michael

Cross L,

This is what I mean by comments from the field about the impact of 50 caliber. I believe the reports but do not understand the cause.

The first thing that comes to mind is frontal surface area. I believe Sam has the numbers but as diameterincreases surface area increases dramatically,(now we are back to pie are square ). Is there a tipping point somewhere around .5 in , and if so would the 67-68% meplat on say a .475 reach the same point due to increased effectiveness?

SSR

Cross L

I sure don't want to get into a lawyer's argument: well, what about 474, what about 473, etc, etc HOWEVER, I'm looking at the same idea myself. As a hypothesis, group the calibers into three groups; 400 to 450, 475 to 525 and 550 to 600. Seems like there could be some sort of jump in effectiveness based on those groups with the caliber numbers shown marking the boundaries. Notice the gaps I've left between groups. What does the center of the caliber range mean; 425, 500, and 575; something, nothing, or "natural" optimum points?

Now what? How to test is still the open question.

Sam thank you for the info. Yes I will stick with the .409 non con already in production for my 450x400.I can't. Wait. Thanks again. Michael ..And thank you for your kind offer.And yes I would like one of my 95s built in the 50 B&M.The XLR is perfect for this.After reading in this thread about the shooting times artical I made up my mind.That will make the perfect Bear rifle.Levers are all the rage here in north eastern PA and my new .500 Bore marlin Bear swatter would I think start an epadimic. Our Bear her can and do reach well over 600 lbs. Last year a big Black came in over 800 lb. Bear hunters here are are buying 95s and #1 in 45x70 and handloading for max effect.Bear are shot up close in vary thick cover her. I can't think of a better rig than a fast Marlin in 50 B&M. I gotta have one. At the moment I have a peace of crotch wood getting fit to the 450x400.And a small ring in 7x57 being built for my wife. {Uh that can't be put off} Ha and I wouldn't want to ...Really.When these are done I will get in touch as to shipping the marlin. Thank you for your kind welcome and I will be reading this thread EVERY day. Have a safe hunt. Gary {Longhunter}..

Micheal,

Now if you had of managed to draw and hit the trout in mid air. Then you would have some real bragging rights.
But if you said you Double Tapped him, well We would just have to call that a Fish Story.

Hey, I still want that fish recipe..LOL

Cheers, John

I have read so much on this post over 2 yrs its been going on.I have a chronograph as well as a 50 yd and 100 yd range.I have been handloading for 4+ years now,it was because of bullet mismatch and poorly loaded custom loads that drove me to handloading and I have no regrets, except that I wish I had started sooner.I have streamlined myself to a few bullets, Woodleighs in 500 Jeffery,416 Rigby,338Lapua, and 470NE,BBS in 500 Jeffery and 416 Rigby...still have never been able to recover a 416 Rigby BBS 400 Grain from Elephants shot from between 40 yds and 80 yds side on .They all whistled through and were never recovered.....For elephants I will say with a bit of experience that I am yet to find a Bullet that can match the BBS in .416 Rigby 400 grain at MV 2,400 fps and .500 Jeffery 570 grain at MV 2295 fps.I have stopped using BBS in 470 NE 500 grains on Elephant, because the MV of 2,100 fps to 1890 fps of bullets "custom loaded" which I have chronographed are not likely to stabilise that long 500 grain BBS Bullet.I have lost 1 Elephant to a bullet that later chronographed at 1890 fps, so much for that commercially loaded "Custom Load".I have great respect for the Barnes X in 416 Rigby 400 grain and use that a lot, however in "bush and brush" I use Woodleighs soft nose, simply because the Barnes Bullets (Swift A frame has a similar Ogive) ogive makes it very more prone to deviate in twigs and brush...I had this unfortunate experience on a 60+ inch Kudu Bull from 35 to 40 yds at Lemco with an A-Frame Swift bullet. The PH was shocked beyond words....Hunting gives you strange perspectives and insights into "odd bullet behavior".Testing and field results , sensibly combined are priceless.In the next 4 to 6 weeks......As I prepare to go after a "Monster Elephant" with huge tusks that dip into the soil thanks to a PAC Permit from the State Governor, I am going with my 500 Jeffery 570 grain BBS with MV 2295 fps and the ever reliable .416 Rigby 400 grain BBS with MV 2,400 fps.My motto...'keep it simple and practical'.You will find it difficult to beat the BBS on Elephant, at the same time, I'll keep Woodleigh's SP in my 2 rifles for any cheeky Forest Buffalo that need to be taught some manners.No Barnes-X's for me.Just my 2 cents.

babaode,

Would you like to try some BBW#13s? If so PM me and I will see you get some. I would really like to see some more elephant shot with them.

Sam

babaode

quote:

416 Rigby...still have never been able to recover a 416 Rigby BBS 400 Grain from Elephants shot from between 40 yds and 80 yds side on .They all whistled through and were never recovered.....For elephants I will say with a bit of experience that I am yet to find a Bullet that can match the BBS in .416 Rigby 400 grain at MV 2,400 fps

Now that you are handloading you can up the velocity to 2600fps and try lengthwise penetration tests.

quote:

I'll keep Woodleigh's SoftPoint in my 2 rifles for any cheeky Forest Buffalo

On brush, the best advice is not to shoot through it, though if you plan to do it, a flat nose solid is probably better than any soft. It appears you like solids, anyway.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but when we're talking about bullets let's not forget the fine S&H bullets. I understand from Michael's post that S&H may have taken themselves out of the game, but remember, they were early with the noncon type bullets and did some very nice solids also.

Yep,
And where is Macifej lately?
Macifej's S&H bullets are as good as it gets,
and included the first .395 bullet since the 1800's, made up special for me,
excepting muzzleloader .395"/.40-cal lead round balls from Hornady, and some paper-patch-able soft lead BPCR projecties that can be found at Buffalo Arms.

Macifej designed the best, even though it was a side-line activity for him.
Prof242, Max, killed an elk with the .395 NonCon, first blood in 2007, with a .395 Ruger Max. I got a NonCon deer in 2008, and that NonCon Tanzania safari in 2010.
Never a bullet problem.
Just my .395 Tatanka soft-brass-cartridge-cases -arriving-at-the-last-minute-from-the-east-coast embarrassments.
The S&H bullets were perfect:
.395-cal/310-grain brass NonCon,
and .395/330-grain brass FN,
and many more he did.
He made a lot of other bullets that went to Africa successfully too.

Well, if Macifej is not in the bullet business right now, I can take some consolation in coming to the end of my rope in wildcat designing:

404/.416 Rigby Improved Plus

404 RIP dummies, imperfectly formed for a start, from spare parts:



404 RIP
I am swearing off after that.
Then look out .50 B&M Alaskan.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Yep,
And where is Macifej lately?
Macifej's S&H bullets are as good as it gets,
and included the first .395 bullet since the 1800's, made up special for me,
excepting muzzleloader .395"/.40-cal lead round balls from Hornady, and some paper-patch-able soft lead BPCR projecties that can be found at Buffalo Arms.

Macifej designed the best, even though it was a side-line activity for him.
Prof242, Max, killed an elk with the .395 NonCon, first blood in 2007, with a .395 Ruger Max. I got a NonCon deer in 2008, and that NonCon Tanzania safari in 2010.
Never a bullet problem.
Just my .395 Tatanka soft-brass-cartridge-cases -arriving-at-the-last-minute-from-the-east-coast embarrassments.
The S&H bullets were perfect:
.395-cal/310-grain brass NonCon,
and .395/330-grain brass FN,
and many more he did.
He made a lot of other bullets that went to Africa successfully too.

Well, if Macifej is not in the bullet business right now, I can take some consolation in coming to the end of my rope in wildcat designing:

404/.416 Rigby Improved Plus

404 RIP dummies, imperfectly formed for a start, from spare parts:



404 RIP
I am swearing off after that.
Then look out .50 B&M Alaskan.

The S&H website is still up…and it does list the FN and HX SHARRC bullets for sale so I reckon they can still be purchased.

RIP the 404’s look nice! So what spare parts did you use to form them...and what's the cartridge OAL? Inquiring minds want to know!

No more wildcats from RIP? What a sad day in shooterville. However, development of the .395 is not a bad heritage.
Max

Hi Babaode!

Glad to have you, and glad you are speaking up! In my short hunting career spanning almost 15 yrs I have never once ever taken factory, or other loaded ammo to the field. While it is as good as it gets, and better than it has ever been, I still have zero use for it. Part of the adventure is my own ammo, bullet choice and loads. I love hand loading. Especially big bore rifles, other things bore me, like loading handgun ammo. But big bore loading is magic!

I sure can't argue your choice in solids, the BBS. It was my choice from the time they started making it as well and a good one. And of course at the time it's availability played a role as well. Today with Barnes making some of the choices they have concerning going back to the RN design, I think they have betrayed hunters and shooters performance. I will never buy another Barnes solid of any design because of that fact alone. But I will never argue the performance of the BBS, as it's excellent. Of course these days I will only use the BBW#13 Solid and the North Fork Solids. There is no reason to use anything else. The BBW#13 will edge out the BBS, but both do give plenty of penetration, and both dead straight line penetration which is of more concern that depth.

What I can advise is this, never trust brush with anything! I have on many occasions had brush bust my chops even with big .500 caliber solids. Sometimes yes, many times no! So it's hard to trust anything to get thru it reliably.

Now just don't disappear on us, keep us posted on your field results, and best of luck on your upcoming adventure! You have good bullet choices, and good loads, great caliber, so now just a little bit of luck and you should be good to go!

As Sam says, if you want to try some BBW#13s let either him or me know, we will get some to you!


IBT and RIP concerning Agent J and the S&H bullets, absolutely correct, and my apologies for I won't say overlooking Agent J, just an availability issue that causes me to not think so clearly. But absolutely superb bullets in every way. The Quality of the work, the bullet, is fantastic, perfect radius on top, and very well done. A fine match up to BBW#13s Quality and North Fork Quality.

NOw I did not say he was not in the bullet business, or at least I don't think I said that, if so, did not mean it exactly that way, I just think he has slowed up on the Big Bores some and is working on some other projects is all. As we know there are few big bore shooters out there that burn up bullets like we do, so one must be versatile and have other avenues as well.


Well it's official, I AM NOT A FISHERMAN!!!! AND I DON"T WANT TO BE! Yep, spent the day Monday on the boat out in the big water! And it was BIG WATER! I spent my day doing two things, chumming over the side, and huddled in the corner covering my eyes so I could not see the BIG WATER rolling me up and down, sideways and to, oh crap, I can still feel it two days later. I think I will never as long as I live get on another boat, vessel, ship, or anything that floats on water! I promised some photos, and as soon as I get my land legs back will post a few.

In the meantime I will try and work on some more bullet reports now that I am here in Pretoria South Africa, nice and comfortable, all adventures behind me now and thinking of new ones in the future. A few days R&R before heading home.

Michael

Hey Michael458, How much C-4 did you pack into thoes non-cons?

Keith

OK a quick HIPPO report.

We battled for hippo. The water on the lake was very high, higher than normal and was way up in the brush. We were doing everything to catch hippo on the dirt. But getting to them was extremely difficult in the high water conditions. Normal flood plains were covered. So day after day we tried to no avail. Plenty of hippo, just could not get to them.

Not far from camp we knew some hippo had been coming out on a small island. Water was shallow getting to it, knee deep or so. Off Andrew and I go wading through the croc waters! Fun. I decided on the 458 B&M, full of 450 gr BBW#13 Solids at a touch over 2200 fps. Just as we were approaching the island, still about 20 feet or so of being feet dry, here come a hippo running to the water, except the hippo stopped just short of going in the water. Obviously heard us but did not know exactly where or what we were. We squatted down in the water, and was trying to pick a spot through the brush. Distance was short, maybe 15 yds or so. I thought I had it pretty good, and dropped the hammer. The hippo dropped like a brain shot elephant, rear first, followed by the front, I knew it was done, but just to pay the insurance I moved around, found the shot through the heart and paid the insurance. The hippo never moved again from the first shot, that was a neck shot. The 450 gr BBW#13 whistled through both the neck shot, and completely broadside busting a big hole in the heart. I did not get photos of the heart shot, but it was a very nice big hole through the heart. These solids hit hard, anyone that says otherwise is ignorant. The 458 B&M made a fine hippo buster, loaded with these bullets no doubt.

I have nothing against someone shooting hippo in the water. I just needed really bad to get a hippo on the ground, busting the brain out of the hippo while in the water really would not have shown me a lot of bullet work. But as it was, I ended up doing just that, Shooting a Hippo in The Water! Well, I was in the water, the hippo was on the ground! HEH..... I suppose that was a reversal of the normal role. LOL.........





Michael

Mike, outstanding results from the "little" .458 !
Hippo on dry land, what a great Trophy, congrats.

I love the big, open, and clean cut entry/exits these slugs leave.
That bull Hippo sure spilled some Claret.
Should make for some easy to follow trails for those animals that havn't read this thread.

Keith

quote:

Hey Michael458, How much C-4 did you pack into thoes non-cons? shocker jumping

Keith

Gees Keith, I did not know that it would do that much damage? It was less than a thimble full?


HEH.....



Paul

Yes, the holes are large and clean cut, like a big wadcutter. This does allow for lot's of bleeding out. And no doubt the little 458 B&M can handle anything that runs across it's path rather handily! I am very pleased with these little guns.

One of your Australians is scheduled to arrive with Andrew by mid month. Daryl is going to meet Andrew in Zimbabwe and give his 50 B&M a workout on buffalo and hippo while there, and I think he is trying out his 416 WSM as well. Daryl will be using the exact same bullets that Lou used in his 50 B&M while down under with you. A 460 Copper Lehigh at near 2200 fps and that big 515 gr Lehigh Solid at 2100 fps. I have BBW#13s and North Forks on the way to Daryl, but they are not going to arrive before he has to leave, export papers have not been done yet, same as yours I think. But I think he will do just fine with that combo. He will be reporting hopefully from camp as well, and if not from camp in Zimbabwe from South Africa for sure. I will post his results and photos when I get them.

Gary

I think the 50 B&M AK will make an excellent close range bear gun, regardless of the size of the bear. When Layne started working on the article it got me off my sorry ass and I got busy updating the load data, pressure traces, and so forth. Fortunately I had already been working with North Fork on the new Premium Bonded bullet specifically for the 50 B&M AK, and will work through the Marlin action. Now North Fork has these completed, and should take delivery by the time I get home. This bullet coming in at 450 gr is going to be the hammer for this cartridge. I received 10 before leaving for Africa, tested two quickly in the 50 B&M at two different velocities, and they are going to do great. Loaded two for Africa in the 500 MDM and wanted to test them but could not get around to them, and ran very short on any thin skinned game after the buffalo quota was shot up. Damn! In addition to the big North Fork bullet I had Dan do a 405 BBW#13 and matching 375 NonCon, and then when I did a couple bullets for the 50 Super Short, I shortened Nose to Mouth so they too would work in the 50 B&M AK too. I think the solid is 375 and the NonCon at 345. Yet some more great choices for all the 50s.

I got word from JD today that the dies have not yet come in from Hornady that we have on order! Crap! Can't be too much longer however, I don't think the 475 dies are in either!


Michael

Yes, I thought so. Was a quick test, I think the 2 days before leaving with the new North Fork.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Yes, I thought so. Was a quick test, I think the 2 days before leaving with the new North Fork.

So 300 FPS got 4 in penetration. How do we disect that? What is enough for DG in a 50 cal?

SSR

8x4=32" penetration
4" per 300 fps
300fps x 8=2400fps
result: 32" penetration
That's my simplistic size up.
I guess a million variables will inherently
effect individual results.

If memory serves me Michael seems to think that 20" in the mix is good enough for DG. The faster bullet expanded more so more resistance and more damage. In game penetration seems double what the mix is. That bullet performed well in the lever action.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Yes, I thought so. Was a quick test, I think the 2 days before leaving with the new North Fork.

So 300 FPS got 4 in penetration. How do we disect that? What is enough for DG in a 50 cal?

SSR

Would be good to see some 450 Alaskan testing done. It should duplicate the 450 BP but with the BBW#13s perform like the 450 NE

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Yes, I thought so. Was a quick test, I think the 2 days before leaving with the new North Fork.

So 300 FPS got 4 in penetration. How do we disect that? What is enough for DG in a 50 cal?

SSR

LOL... Today I'm to lazy to research through this thread to select the appropriate posts by Michael and Sam - wife just reminded me I have painting to do! - so I'll have to make this recommendation:

quote:

The 50 caliber benchmark should be the .500 NE cartridge. Whatever penetration Kynoch's current standard Woodleigh FMJ and SN loadings in .500 NE result in should be demarcation point for all 50 caliber cartridges for CXP4 game including elephant.

Penetration is equal to or more than..."Good to go!" Penetration is less than..."No go!"

Why change the benchmark for now?

Edit Added: Oh, and I'd say the same thing about Kynoch's .450 NE loadings with the Woodleigh FMJ and SN bullets for .458 caliber cartridges.

Now I'm off to paint.

Jim

Who said that quote about Kynoch and the Woodleigh FMJ?

OK, way back when, I also needed a benchmark to go by. So I have shot a few buffalo with 458 Lott and various bullets. So most all the expanding-- "Buffalo Bullets" in 458 Lott that I have used would go between 20-24 inches. So that was my benchmark and has been for a long time. Any bullet tested that would do 20 inches in my test medium, buffalo bullet. But, I have tested many hundreds of bullets since those days, and while I still think 20 inches in my test medium is good to go for buffalo, I would not feel undergunned at 18 inches. We tested the 500 gr Nosler Partition in 458 Lott some time ago, 19 inches. So this 450 North Fork .500 out of a lever gun, at 1957 fps, and 18 inches--Yeah, it will do. But we are talking buffalo--Not Lion and bear. Lion and bear this will hammer and most likely exit! Which is good. And, this was a quicky test, no load development, just throw a previous load and shoot. I believe this bullet will exceed 2000 fps and stay under pressure in the 18 inch lever guns that I use. Tell you what, I will damn sure use this bullet next year on an Australian buffalo, and by damned we will find out! How about that? Ain't nothing to me to shoot some buffalo!

HEH...........

No conventional bullet is ever going to go much past 24-26 inches in this test medium, regardless of velocity. Or I have never had one do so. Now just as I say this, if I test this bullet in the 500 MDM at top end velocity, who knows, it's a North Fork, and even a North Fork Conventional is somewhat Non-Conventional!


Jim, reason I ask about that quote on the 500 NE and Woodleigh FMJ--That benchmark is mighty damned low--I could beat that benchmark with things I would not use in the field! LOL----

Late here, past my nap time.
Later
Michael

On to page 172! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jim

Who said that quote about Kynoch and the Woodleigh FMJ?

OK, way back when, I also needed a benchmark to go by. So I have shot a few buffalo with 458 Lott and various bullets. So most all the expanding-- "Buffalo Bullets" in 458 Lott that I have used would go between 20-24 inches. So that was my benchmark and has been for a long time. Any bullet tested that would do 20 inches in my test medium, buffalo bullet. But, I have tested many hundreds of bullets since those days, and while I still think 20 inches in my test medium is good to go for buffalo, I would not feel undergunned at 18 inches. We tested the 500 gr Nosler Partition in 458 Lott some time ago, 19 inches. So this 450 North Fork .500 out of a lever gun, at 1957 fps, and 18 inches--Yeah, it will do. But we are talking buffalo--Not Lion and bear. Lion and bear this will hammer and most likely exit! Which is good. And, this was a quicky test, no load development, just throw a previous load and shoot. I believe this bullet will exceed 2000 fps and stay under pressure in the 18 inch lever guns that I use. Tell you what, I will damn sure use this bullet next year on an Australian buffalo, and by damned we will find out! How about that? Ain't nothing to me to shoot some buffalo!

HEH...........

No conventional bullet is ever going to go much past 24-26 inches in this test medium, regardless of velocity. Or I have never had one do so. Now just as I say this, if I test this bullet in the 500 MDM at top end velocity, who knows, it's a North Fork, and even a North Fork Conventional is somewhat Non-Conventional!


Jim, reason I ask about that quote on the 500 NE and Woodleigh FMJ--That benchmark is mighty damned low--I could beat that benchmark with things I would not use in the field! LOL----

Late here, past my nap time.
Later
Michael

Michael,

I’ve read that the current Kynoch .500 NE and .450 NE cartridges, loaded with these same Woodleigh bullets, replicate the early 20th century loadings of these two cartridges…whether cordite or smokeless powder used.

I have also read in more than a few African hunting articles and books that the 450 NE was the “benchmark” cartridge that all others were compared to and that the .500 NE was the PH’s “big stick” stopping cartridge for the Big-5 DG.

I as well deduced these “pearls” from reading the AR African Hunting and Double Rifle Forums that the Woodleigh FMJ and SN were the greatest things going for CXP4 game with double rifles before being fully reality indoctrinated with the TBP thread.

Oh the quotation. I said it as a statement…I just put it within an AR style quotation.

I might add... I believe that others from the early 20th century agree with you regarding the "lack of penetration" from these "benchmark cartridges" which lead to the 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs, and the 500 Jeffery.

Jim

OK, I am on board now, just a little lost and understand now what you are talking about. Yes, you are correct, at one time these were the benchmarks that many cartridges were designed to achieve, the 458 Winchester comes to mind.

I personally have always been infatuated with the 500 NE. That was always my favorite of the big bores, a .510 caliber bullet, 570 grs at 2150 fps. That was the benchmark I used with the 500 MDM. Of course most bolt guns in .510 caliber cartridges exceed this benchmark easy, but much more is really not needed. From the start I wanted the 500 MDM to be able to run 550s at 2150-2200 fps, which it does easy. Of course the 500 MDM is .500 and not .510, so there is no confusion. However, I did get away from the 550 gr bullets because the 500 gr .500s BBW#13s were so good, 550 gr was no longer needed. By SD standards a .500 500 gr bullet is light for caliber, however we now know for a fact that SD is trumped by several other more important factors. But, there is still that nagging question in the back of my mind about 550 gr bullets in the 500 MDM. When I was doing all the load data and pressure traces last fall, I never bothered with the 550 gr bullets I had from Lehigh, big copper solids. Before leaving on this trip I sent Dan a message that I wanted a run of 550 gr BBW#13 Solids that I intend to see what I can get out of the 500 MDM with those and stay under pressure.

While I had this long time infatuation with 500 NE, I had never even fired one until Sam brought his double down for me to play with. I think it's another one of his VC's, but wow, if I was a double guy, that would be it for me I think---But wait, there is that 577 NE of his? Hmmmm.... Reckon it's a good thing I have Sam, I can just shoot his when I want to, it's much cheaper for me! LOL......

I see somewhere on our Big Bore forum someone has had a bullet failure of some sort with conventional bullets on buffalo. Two failures in fact. Bullet broke up and did not reach the vitals. Hmmmm? You guys reckon folks just cannot grasp or believe what we do here? Do you think they believe that this is all just BS and not real? I know many of the purest hunters really don't understand or even care about bullet technology, just buy something off the shelf and go. There are some animals one hunts that it almost does not make much difference what you use, whitetail deer and impala perhaps. But honest to god, when one goes for any of our dangerous game, don't you think that one would consider more than just the "Cartridge" and folk lore, and investigate a bit further to give themselves a better chance of success?

Over the years you see discussions about "What Cartridge is Best for _______" or "What Rifle is best for ____", but it is rare that the bullet is ever mentioned in these discussions, and that seems rather odd to me, as it is the bullet that does all the work in the end? I suppose it's just fun to discuss cartridges and rifles, but bullets can be somewhat boring to some?

These discussion are actually lot's of fun, and provoke some thought process as well, I too enjoy, What Cartridge, What Rifle, however the very second the thought of a cartridge enters my mind, it's "What Bullet for that cartridge and mission I intend to embark upon?" One cannot stop with merely this cartridge or that rifle, it's a package deal of all three, Cartridge-Rifle-Bullet, and not necessarily in that order either!

How does one enhance the cartridge? Perhaps there are many cartridges/rifle combinations that come up just a tad short for some duties. Thinking particularly of lever guns, they have always been limited by the weaker action, and having to stay around 45000 PSI. Many being shorter actions, like the Marlin 1895 even complicates matters further. At least for us common folks. Loving .458 caliber, but coming up short somewhat because of these limitations, one can increase caliber, which is exactly what Harold Johnson did in Alaska with the 50 Alaskan--.510 caliber. And it worked on those big bears he was having issues with. But in the 1950s and 1960s Harold had one major issue, there were no decent bullets, in fact maybe none at all, so he was cutting 50 BMG bullets in half and using that! He enhanced the rifle he wanted to use by increasing caliber. Today, we do the same thing, but we can't go with more caliber in many of these rifles, so we enhance by bullet design. And by damned I think we are there. We cannot exceed pressures safely, but we can sure enhance the cartridge and rifle by bullet design and how it operates. Always keeping in mind (for myself anyway) that penetration is top of the list, we must have penetration, even if it's too much penetration, I will take that any day over the remaining options. With penetration, one cannot have bullet failure. I am very excited by the enhanced abilities of even my own 50 B&M AK in the lever guns, and in addition the Super Short series. With the new bullets from CEB and North Fork, these cartridges have made a step up in performance, and ability to do jobs that they were not capable of before. And, I think do better than just "adequate". This is not only for the cartridges and rifles of my design, but all cartridges in these calibers. Take the 45/70 for instance, with some of these new bullets it is enhanced greatly. Coming to mind right off is the 350 and 325 North Fork Cup Points, the new CEB BBW#13s! I wish I would have had bullets like this back in the early part of this decade when I was playing with the guide guns! I came up short back then, but those of you with these today are not coming up short! Lucky you!

Speaking of North Fork!

Continued;

Hunter in croc-infested water, hippo on dry land ...
An old favorite from Uganda 2007 at Murchison Park


Jim: Regarding 404 RIP: Resize the neck of a .395 Tatanka and seat bullet using a .423 Dakota-Lapua die set.
Voila! 404/.416 Rigby Improved Plus.

Upon arrival back in South Africa I still had buffalo on quota. However, this was actually a herd reduction sort of thing and not hunting in the traditional sense of things, and that is fine with me. There is no trophies involved, and our goal was to remove older cows, with no calves, and not with calves of course. This was mostly like a photo area, rather large area very close to the Kruger. It had everything from lions, buffalo, elephant and even rhino in addition to the normal plains game. However the lions could not remove enough buffalo from the area, so from time to time some needed to be removed to provide not only income for the area, but to maintain the quality of the herd which was around 200 plus buffalo. I mentioned earlier about each buffalo I shot the money could be used to GPS collar one of the rhinos so that it could be kept up with for over 2 years. There is a terrible issue with rhino poaching for the horns only on adjacent areas, but these guys kept up guard rather seriously on the area and had yet to suffer any losses.

We arrived and made a plan with the owner, Chris, a very knowledgeable fellow concerning cartridges, rifles and bullets, but limited to what has been available to him in the past as well. Old School, like many of us, myself included, and did not really grasp the concept of the NonCon. And very skeptical of this in the beginning. Like many of us in the beginning, a bullet looses weight, it looses penetration! And believe me, regardless of what you hear otherwise, PENETRATION is king here in the bush, not only with myself but every PH and every knowledgeable individual you will run across.

I had 3 cows here to sort out. Chris knew his buffalo herd very well here. The first one we decided to take out, I used the 500 MDM and the 450 gr North Fork Cup Point at 2450 fps. Again, behind brush and even at 20 yds I was having a hard time with it. You see, after 30 minutes from camp that morning I discovered I had forgot my glasses again!! CRAP! OK, so I would have to manage, this was shooting not hunting per say. Even though my shot was a tad low, the bullet went whistling through the cow and she dropped on the spot and was anchored, a followup finished the issue. It was a slam bang end of story. A great deal of trauma had been inflicted by these bullets.



No bullets were recovered unfortunately, or fortunately one might say, as penetration was complete, and trauma inflicted. This particular bullet is a wonder bullet in the 50 B&M with it's limited case capacity, and short barrel, I can run this bullet to over 2300 fps in the 50 B&M, and perhaps it might be just the best ticket for buffalo in that cartridge, there is no issues with penetration, and trauma inflicted for sure. Weighing in at 450 grs and being copper I can get a tad more velocity and be way under pressure with this bullet than I can with the 460 BBW#13 NonCon, which I can take to 2250 fps or so and stay under pressure. Both are excellent in the arena of buffalo however and I would be good to go with either for sure. Unfortunately as well I never got any photos of the trauma inflicted on this buffalo by the North Fork bullet, from this point on things got a bit hectic, as I shot all three of these buffalo that same day!

Michael

RIP, this is a bit off the thread but that photo of the Hippo gaining on the man tweaked my interest.

When I was a young surgeon, I spent a summer in Blantyre, Malawi. We were looking after a fellow who did not win that footrace with a hippo that appeared out of Lake Nyassa.

The Hippo gained on the poor guy and bit off both buttocks and broke both femoral necks so the poor chap was lying in bilateral traction with these two huge wounds that used to be a butt. We were cleaning him up for skin grafting. Sorry but I had to comment on that photo.

Once this first cow was sorted out, loaded up and took to the skinning and process area, we were right back at it, before lunch I must add, and in search of cow #2.

Now I also add that all of this hunting was taking place within the herd, penetration is always a concern, but it was never an issue, one just waits on the shot is all. Making sure nothing behind, nothing in front and take your time at it. If the shot was lost, and it sometimes was, one merely moved some to put one in position to get a second chance. Yep, if one was after that BIG TROPHY BULL, an opportunity might be lost, however that is possible with anything, I will take penetration every day, the rest is secondary.

I had now gone back to the 460 BBW#13 NonCon--I had a point to prove to Chris at this point. Another hour of so of looking we found a good candidate for the test. She was facing me at about 15 yds or so when I dropped the hammer on a frontal chest shot, this one reared up on it's hind legs like a rearing horse, and bolted just in front of me, reflex and nothing more caused me to take a second shot broadside hitting the cow on the shoulder, going through lungs this time. She only went 10-12 yds and piled up stone cold.



Now it was load up time, and back to the skinning shed. Once we unloaded and gave instructions to the guys, we decided it was time for a spot of lunch! Which we probably took a 2 hour total break for that. By the time we returned the guys there had made little to no progress on the now two buffalo at the shed. We did have a bit of a surprise as the local cheetah club had joined in the process of wanting their share of the buffalo, which they eventually got of course.



These cheetah of course had been raised from cubs there on the farm and were as tame as puppies. Very delightful they were and quite friendly as well. After Chris arrive back to meet Andrew, I, Momma and Mercedes, we took some more photos of us petting and playing with them! Very excellent experience for Mercedes. Of course, she wanted to take them home with her!

We battled for that third and final buffalo on the area the rest of the afternoon. While we found buffalo, finding the right cow was somewhat difficult. It was getting late, and had almost resigned myself to returning the next day, when we got lucky and a cow presented a good shot with the 500 MDM at short range, less than 20 yds easy. It was broadside, it was a heart shot with the 460 BBW#13 NonCon. It was the second Slam Dunk, down on the spot, never to move again, the first with the North Fork, now one with the 460 BBW#13 Noncon.

As you can see from below, it was getting late.



We also suffered another malfunction with the winch, and it took some time to get loaded up and back to the skinning shed with now the 3rd buffalo for that day. It was Zero Dark Thirty upon arriving, and they had disposed of the first buffalo vitals--The North Fork buffalo, but had the second buffalo vitals from the frontal shot. Photos of the heart are not so good, it was very dark and had a hard time getting the right perspective, but damage on that second buffalo was extensive as you can maybe make out.



That is the heart from frontal.

As talked about before on this subject, it seems to me the blades on frontal is getting to the heart and doing extensive damage within the heart as they are shearing and ripping right along with the bullet, dispersing after leaving the heart on a frontal shot. From Broadside the blades have already dispersed far enough from center wound channel to be ripping as individual projectiles into lungs and other vitals.

It was an interesting day with a great deal of activity throughout. Chris had been convinced these were good bullets by now, plenty of penetration, and while still some skeptical, was convinced there was no issues or problems with them. He did like the caliber no doubt, and continued to instruct underlings on caliber for buffalo, he was not a 375 fan at all, a fellow had been there that week with 375, and poor shooting, and they chased buffalo for days all over the place, wounded ones that is. A combination of poor shooting, and most likely poor bullet choices as well I estimate. And of course small bore not helping any.

Michael

quote:

Jim: Regarding 404 RIP: Resize the neck of a .395 Tatanka and seat bullet using a .423 Dakota-Lapua die set.
Voila! 404/.416 Rigby Improved Plus.

Cool. So where/from whom did you get your .423 Dakota-Lapua die set?