.500", 460 grain, .263 SD
Look at that performance!

Something I notice here and in the animals I shot with the #13s is a larger entrance hole in the skin. RNs tend to leave a little hole as they push skin aside and the big flat nose profile cuts a chunk of hide out on the way in.

Michael another nice buff and I'm starting to get jealous.

Great stuff again guys! Take care Michael and get back in one piece. We need another 200 pages on this thread in the next year!

quote:

IBT:
"If you look at the site that Boomstick posted, you'll see that the pedals appear to be going backward in the ballistic jell? I think it appears that way from the quick loss of energy in the pedals due to resistence of the target compared to the energy in the body of the bullet. By the by, when the bullet sheld its pedals the body should pick up a small amount of vel."

RIP

I was hoping someone else would look at the site Boomstick referenced. The ballistic jell appears to show the sedals traveling outward and backward from the path of the main body of the shell. I don't understand that at all. Maybe what the ballistic jell shows is that the pedals slow down a lot faster than the remaining body?

As for picking up speed, it's a matter of conservation of energy. It's easier to imagine if the bullet was traveling in space. Chucking away some of the mass of the bullet results in an increase in speed of the bullet. In a medium such as the flesh of the target, there's too much going on for this to have any measurable impact.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Something I notice here and in the animals I shot with the #13s is a larger entrance hole in the skin. RNs tend to leave a little hole as they push skin aside and the big flat nose profile cuts a chunk of hide out on the way in.

Michael another nice buff and I'm starting to get jealous.

Sam

You are 100% spot on with the much larger entrance, like a wadcutter. I was able to shoot 3 buffalo in Zimbabwe. On our return to the RSA I had a few on quota here, it dwindled to 4 here instead of 5 that was slated, but picked up an extra bull in Zim. On the cows here in the RSA they were basically herd reduction in an area that had limited space. It was an very nice area, large, had rhino, lion, buffalo, and all manner of creatures. Photographic, academic all sorts of things. The lions on the area were not able to remove enough buffalo to sustain the ecosystem, and there is a rather large herd that is maintained there, 200 plus. So from time to time they sell off some of the cows, this money actually goes to protect the rhinos on the area. There is a very very serious issue with rhino poaching in the entire region. Selling me one cow buffalo can maintain gps units on a rhino for two years. I believe this to be an excellent deal, for me, and for the rhino. This issue with the rhino here has become very serious, and people are in fact being shot, killed, as well as the poor rhinos! This is not the poor doing this, it's a ring of poachers that reaches far into the upper echelon of people, and to other countries! G-D ignorant SOBs have never heard of Viagra I suppose! I am sure the big blue pill is cheaper in the long run, and for sure more effective! Ignorant bastards! Anyway, nearly forgetting where I am going with this? OH, ok, was trying to explain, the next 4 cow buffalo has nothing to do with HUNTING, it's nothing but shooting, and with a purpose.

The owner of this area, Chris, and I forgot the last name, but have it somewhere. Chris is a rather knowledgeable individual concerning handloading, big bores, and bullets, and only limited by what he has been exposed to, and what is available. Currently he is liking the Rhino bullets in his 458 Lott--and if you guys recall we did tests on those and they did rather well. Not a North Fork or BBW#13 by any stretch, but good enough for buffalo for sure. He liked the bullets, but was EXTREMELY Skeptical about the #13 NonCons, having never heard of such a thing! Obvious argument, when a bullet looses weight, it looses penetration! What is the remaining weight, what percentage remaining weight, those sort of questions, all leading to one conclusion, loose weight, loose penetration, straight up conventional wisdom, conventional teaching. I winked, and just told him what NonCon stood for--Non Conventional! I decided to let him decide for himself after seeing the performance for himself.

During the shooting process, I was using the 500 MDM, there were some of the "Jeep Jockeys" along with us, these are the guys who ride around the tourists to see the animals, Chris continued to instruct these guys about the big wadcutter holes the 500 was making, compared to (Sorry 375 Fans) 375 caliber holes, which tended to close up after being shot. Also, was impressed with the trauma inflicted on these buffalo by the 500, but it was more the bullets than anything. They had been hunting that week and removing some other cows, some chap was shooting a 375 HH and they had dealt with a couple of wounded cows that went into the next day before collecting them. So they were not all that happy with 375 caliber at the time. Now, I don't care for 375 either, but had these 375s been loaded with CEB BBW#13s, and NonCons, and NOrth Forks, I suspect it would have been easier tracking anyway even with a poor shot.

All of which ties perfectly in with Sam's comment about the bigger hole! God, how many words did it take Sam to say that, and how many did it take me? Hmmmmmm?

Another point about the upcoming reports on the next cow buffalo, don't be looking for horns or anything, we shot only cows that were not with calves, so we picked older cows, no calves, and paid zero attention to anything else. This was shooting, not hunting. And was perfect for what we wanted and needed to do. But I am not even close to having those reports ready yet.

Hey Naki

Yeah man, been to the Chiro both Monday and Today. Seems he has cured my problems with the nerve and messed up left leg. I feel like a new man now! Who would have thought in the beginning this thread would have turned into this to begin with? Not I.

Yes, Boomy, exactly right, SD while still a factor, no longer holds it's former status. Not with BBW#13s and North Forks!


Hi RIPPER!!!!!

Wartys are tough as hell! I have gut shot a few myself and they gave me a lot of grief! I almost busted a piggy at a waterhole the last day, but was still hoping for a wildebeast for the NonCons! Boons too! But holding for a beast. On the other area where we were staying in RSA, Camp. It is a developing area very large combined with the local community and a friend of ours from SPain, Luis. Which is tied in close with Andrew. We have known the family for several years now. Luis is just now taking over the area and building some really first class 5 star lodges and hunting camps. Roughly 40000 hectares, a large area, about 10000 has been reserved for hunting, but very short on actual game because of being depleted over the years by poor management. Well, there was this one very big giraffe bull. This rascal was damn near coal black! I am telling you he was fine with his black coat. I passed the first day, while Momma was doing everything to tell me how good a bullet test a giraffe was! I was still on a wildebeast or zebra mission, more in line with what I needed to do. Last morning sitting at the waterhole waiting on wildebeast, and not being any wildebeast, here comes those giraffes! OK, well, Andrew had sent a text to Luis about the giraffe, I was 5 minutes from Blackie being in position when Luis asked to please not shoot the giraffe! Well, Of course I heeded Luis's request, but it was very close, I teased Luis later that he was within 5 minutes of not having that giraffe anymore! HEH HEH......

We stayed an extra day as they were getting two bull elephants from Kruger being transplanted to the area. We stayed for that great event, and it was an event as well! Interesting to watch the process and talk to some of the guys from the Kruger that have WAY too many elephants, and seems culling cannot be put into effect, so they are trying a transplant program. Seems to help, but they really can't transplant enough elephant to solve their issues. As I recall they said the Kruger can support something like 6000 elephants and they estimate they have 20000. They can never transplant all they need to get back into sync with the system. I have a solution for all that, but rest assured, South Africa has it's share of "Bleeding Heart Greenies" same as we do.

RIP, I think red mist can only come from velocity as well. However, we can get some very destructive trauma from these new NonCons, far more than conventional, as you know already! I Concur! Although when I look at my crocs head I am not so sure?

Michael

Michael you know me blunt and to the point!

Michael;

What a great adventure as well as a learning experience - it goes to show that education can be fun.

Thanks very much for sharing with us.

Hugh

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael you know me blunt and to the point!

YEp, and me I can drone on and on, and on some more! LOL Especially if it's good stuff!


Hugh, I could not agree with you more, learning is fun and it also comes in useful when we go to the field, and that is what this is ALL about, nothing more.



HOw about a CROC report????

Michael

Up in Zim we were right on the Kariba, and crocs and hippo were abundant. And for some time now we, Momma mostly, wanted a croc. So after the buffalo were sorted out, the elephant sorted out we continued to bait for crocs, and for lion as well. We ended up getting several crocs on bait, but this meant having to sit in a damned blind again, and I hate that! Fortunately we did not sit long one afternoon before there were 5-6 of them rolling and crashing around on what was left of an elephant leg! Maybe I spent 30-45 minutes at the most.

I chose for this work the 458 B&M, and the 420 CEB BBW#13 NonCon HP. If I was after shock value, I got it! It was only 35 yds so it was sort of an easy shot, but it was shaded, crocs moving and slithering everywhere, grabbing meat and rolling tearing it off, it was a frenzied affair no doubt. We picked the biggest of the lot and hammered down on it. I shot as it was moving, was off the mark a bit forward, but there was so much trauma inflicted that it anchored it just under the water a few inches. Running as quickly as we could it was dead still and floated to the top of the water where I hammered it again from only a few feet right in the top of the head. It was pretty much over at that point except dragging it out!

This was putting the bait in and getting it ready.



This was the area in which the crocs came from to get to the bait. We watched several come and go through this choke point in the lake.



It was not the biggest croc in the lake by no stretch, but bigger than the one I had, which was zero! HEH....
He measured tip to tip dead on 12 feet.



The top of the head! I think you can see the damage inflicted here without any problems. Not sure how my taxidermist is going to fix this one??? Oh well, that's his problem eh!



There were blades found inside there somewhere! I did not dig around in this thing. I am not much of a slimy reptile sorta chap.

Michael

Looks like momma got some new shoes and a purse and enough to make some cowboy boots from that crock maybe make an ammo belt too! Two gun holster? That hole looks nasty. Not good for the taxidermist

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Looks like momma got some new shoes and a purse and enough to make some cowboy boots from that crock maybe make an ammo belt too! Two gun holster? That hole looks nasty. Not good for the taxidermist

Momma normally gets what Momma wants! HEH....... Yeah, that's ugly eh? Damned near blew the entire top of his head off, including jaws! Gonna take a lot of super glue to put him back together.

M

quote:

Looks like momma got some new shoes and a purse and enough to make some cowboy boots from that crock

And don't forget the Little Princess as well! Hey, you almost got killed! Next time, you can borrow my T-Rex to keep you out of trouble!!! :-)

Hey Guys! We got a new "Lurker" with us as I understand it this evening. My friend, and my long time PH here Andrew Schoeman! Just got news that he is working on being a new member and has been lurking here. Andrew, please welcome and join in with us, and if I get anything wrong, don't hesitate to correct me too!

I have been hunting with Andrew for 11 plus years now, he was a mere chap just getting out of diapers when we were in Mozambique hunting lions way back when! LOL........ Momma and I have adopted Andrew into our family and he has been with us ever since. Andrew and I have shot just about anything worth shooting together, and we have always had one hell of a good time together! I am hoping to hook him up with some of you guys in Dallas this year, as he will be coming along with me and Momma! Sam does not know it yet, but he will be bunking in with Andrew in Dallas this coming year, HEH HEH HEH, I already made the plan!

Just FYI as introduction, Andrew comes from a long history of hunting. His father helped open many areas in the old days, he and Tony Sanchez worked together and have hunted the continent in the old days! Andrew was raised and taught by these grand gents, and it shows. It just don't get much better than my boy Andrew. I don't hang around with folks that are not first class!

Andrew, we are looking forward to hearing from you, so don't be shy, jump right in, you know we talked about these guys here and how great they are, so I will be looking for you soon!

I am on the road tomorrow and not sure about access to internet at that point the next few days, so if you guys don't hear from me, that's why.

Later
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Looks like momma got some new shoes and a purse and enough to make some cowboy boots from that crock

And don't forget the Little Princess as well! Hey, you almost got killed! Next time, you can borrow my T-Rex to keep you out of trouble!!! :-)

Hey Biebs

Oh no Little MDM was along for nearly every step of the way. She is like her mother, ask her what she thinks, her standard line is "Shoot It". Little MDM was busy the entire time, most of the time directing our activities and making sure camp and dinner was ready, and bossing everyone around. She and Andrew also got some fishing in too!

LOL


OH, no thanks, I would have had anther heart attack if I had to carry the T'Rex all day! LOL

Good to hear from you Biebs>
Michael

Need a bunch of Solid and Non-Con bullets for the 600 OK when you get back!

quote:

My friend and my long time PH here Andrew Schoeman! Just got news that he is working on being a new member and has been lurking here.

Welcome to the menagerie Andrew! Your assignment, should you accept, is to tell us something (or somethings as the case may be) about Michael during his hunts! LOL... Regardless, happy to have you participating in the thread.

Michael
What will you chose on your next safari? 50 B&M AK? 458 SS?

No Boomy, I believe it’s time for Michael to build Mercedes a nice B&M for plains game for next year's hunt so they can reverse positions and he can be the proud Daddy for the masterful huntress!


But for Michael, I think it’ll be time for the 475 B&M to get a workout along with the 458 B&M SS; they’d definitely prove that it’s all about using proper bullets!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Exponential bullet diameter effect?

.395*2 = 0.156025
.500*2 = 0.250000

RIP,

Why are you squaring the diameter? If you're after the change in area it's r squared not d squared. Or are you presenting something else?

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Exponential bullet diameter effect?

.395*2 = 0.156025
.500*2 = 0.250000

RIP,

Why are you squaring the diameter? If you're after the change in area it's r squared not d squared. Or are you presenting something else?

because he is concerned with ratios, not exact area. either radius or diameter would work. the other factors are constants and will cancel (drop out of the ratio).

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

IBT:
"If you look at the site that Boomstick posted, you'll see that the pedals appear to be going backward in the ballistic jell? I think it appears that way from the quick loss of energy in the pedals due to resistence of the target compared to the energy in the body of the bullet. By the by, when the bullet sheld its pedals the body should pick up a small amount of vel."

RIP

I was hoping someone else would look at the site Boomstick referenced. The ballistic jell appears to show the sedals traveling outward and backward from the path of the main body of the shell. I don't understand that at all. Maybe what the ballistic jell shows is that the pedals slow down a lot faster than the remaining body?

As for picking up speed, it's a matter of conservation of energy. It's easier to imagine if the bullet was traveling in space. Chucking away some of the mass of the bullet results in an increase in speed of the bullet. In a medium such as the flesh of the target, there's too much going on for this to have any measurable impact.

A projectile "Picking up speed" while in flight? Shedding weight or not, I dont think so. We are not talking about self propelled objects. I will have some real solid data on this one.

A rocket accelerates as it sheds mass assuming thrust is constant, but a projectile ceases accelleration as soon as the propelent force is exhausted> Not So?



SSR

no picking up speed... or at least, energy.. but if the petal are going 0 speed out, when sheering, they DO go faster OUT than they where.. but net sum NEGATIVE energy, due to shearing

Michael,

Sounds like super results on the bullets and a greaat hunt. Rest assured we are all somewhat envious. It looks like the "light for caliber"- but tested- design concept is working superbly.

Cant wait to slam something with the 416, its so hot and dry here even the hogs went on vacation. 100 or over for 9 days now I would trade foer some of that cold in a second.


SSR

PS Second the motion about a B&M for the little "Diana" you have supervising. Make it pretty now.

Michael,

You should build Mercedes a 458 Super Short and with a #13 see can bust anything out there.

Sam

Biebs

You got it. Not sure what I have left, but remind me when I get back and I will get some on the way to you. Planning something?


Boomy

quote:

What will you chose on your next safari? 50 B&M AK? 458 SS?

Planning the next adventure, and what one is going to take on it is always great fun. But only the beginning of a lot of work as well. I don't know, right now I am very intrigued with the new 475 B&M. With all the issues I have had in 470 that caliber has been a turn off for me, and the available bullets have always been crap as I care to see it. Now, the little gun, and the new North Fork and CEB Bullets, it has caught my attention some. I want to see what it can do. Oh man, the 50 B&M AK is way behind as well as all the Super SHorts on field experience, which is none at this point. Right now, I don't know! The article that Layne had in ST must be pretty good, getting a lot of emails about the 50 B&M AK and interest.

Jim

quote:

Welcome to the menagerie Andrew! Your assignment, should you accept, is to tell us something (or somethings as the case may be) about Michael during his hunts! LOL... Regardless, happy to have you participating in the thread.

I can tell you that pretty easy! Andrew has learned if he keeps me in Castle starting early in the morning, I shoot much better and he and the trackers have less work to do. So they start me out about 8 am with the first one and we continue on from there. I have drank enough Castles that I need not worry about the flight home, I can just float on in! LOL...................


Cross

Yes, I will be busting back into that heat and it will be yet another wake up call! Not looking forward to coming home to July and August in SC--100 degrees and 99% humidity to top it off! I can't be satisfied these days, freeze and bitch today, cook and bitch tomorrow!

I can't wait till you, and 450NE start busting things with your 416s and the 325 NonCons. I think you will be surprised.

Speaking of which, not a peep out of my buddy 450NE? I know he's lurking about however! Sam, where is 450NE, heard from him the last few days? Hoping you guys are planning a trip to visit when I get back? I am quite sure it won't be long before Mercedes is checking out her next rifle, after this trip. Both Momma and I were very pleased with her, was not quite sure how she was going to take to this, but it was amazing, she had the whole camp on it's ears and had a great time. She loves biltong, especially buffalo. Every day we would catch her snitching biltong from the hanging line! She does very well out on a hunt.

Well it's just after 2:30 am here, we are getting ready to start a road trip down to the coast this morning, trying to beat the Pretoria/J'Burg traffic. So hopefully I will have some service when we get down there tonight, and hoping to hear something from Andrew here today, would be nice. I am afraid he is going to complain about the country now being low on Castle and the beer company having to go into extra production to keep up?

HEH

Michael

quote:

I don't shoot either of these calibers, please if you need some let me know, discounts available to get them off my shelves to make room for things more useful to me, personally!

Michael458

Do you still have any 375 noncons that you need to get rid of? I have a seemingly unlimited number of pigs that would make pretty good test medium. I bought a box a few days ago and will try them out soon. Does anyone have a load for 375 H&H?

Clint

PS
I'm not a lurker. I just started reading this thread a few weeks ago and it took a while to get through 168 pages! The work that y'all have done is simply amazing. I know you did it all because you love it but for all the time and effort it took to share it with the rest of us, I would like to say thank you to all involved.

Michael,

Talk with 450NE almost everyday not sure why he's not posting, shy I guess. He is itching for his Super Short 50. He has been pointing up bullets for weeks. Yes we will plan on bugging you when you get back. I may have to stay in the Bat Cave so I can hear all the tales.
Have a safe trip!

Sam

Hi Everyone,Thanks for the nice introduction Michael.I connected to your forum for the first time a few days a ago after returning from the hunt with Michael and was hooked on your descussions imediately,let me just clear up one thing,ENGLISH IS MY SECOND LANGUAGE so my words may not always make good sence to you,hehe. [/QUOTE]Welcome to the menagerie Andrew! Your assignment, should you accept, is to tell us something (or somethings as the case may be) about Michael during his hunts! LOL... Regardless, happy to have you participating in the thread.

Well,first I have to say that Michael is the kind of hunting client that every Professional hunter dream to have in camp and out in the bush with them.like he said we are passed the client and friend relationship we are more like family now and I respect him for the person he is and the knowledge he has on rifles and bullets.Everywhere we travel through africa he leaves his mark as a great guy and someone who knows what his talking about.On the last hunt I was baught over and over by his rifles and bullet performances and hopefully I will be using the 500 mdm soon as a back up rifle.

If I have to think back at all the great adventures we had together and tell you something funny about Michael it is that for some reason Michael allways gets hurt when he comes on safari, On this last hunt it was the pinched nerve in his back that made him look like he had one too many beers when he gets out of his room in the mornings and a couple years ago we were hunting in South Africa when one afternoon heading back to camp Michael and myself were talking on the back of my pick up hunting vehicle when my tracker who was driving drove under a thorn tree,jaun and myself sat for a few hours that evening trying to get all the thorns out of his ear.

When it comes to shooting and shooting fast you will go a long way to find someone doing better,he proved it again this trip on the elephant that almost bit us.

Great to bepart of your forum,
REGARDS ANDREW

Andrew, Hello and Welcome

Any freind of Micheal's is a drinking buddy of ours.

Cheers, John

Thanks john, we'll have a few cold ones together next year at dsc.

quote:

Well,first I have to say that Michael is the kind of hunting client that every Professional hunter dream to have in camp and out in the bush with them.like he said we are passed the client and friend relationship we are more like family now and I respect him for the person he is and the knowledge he has on rifles and bullets.Everywhere we travel through africa he leaves his mark as a great guy and someone who knows what his talking about.On the last hunt I was baught over and over by his rifles and bullet performances and hopefully I will be using the 500 mdm soon as a back up rifle.

Andrew this is exactly one of the stories we need to hear about! Do not worry about your English – as a second language - as occasionally we have the need for an interpreter to intervene so that we can understand the idioms between different parts of the USA. If I make it to DSC in 2012 it will be my pleasure to meet you. Welcome to the best of the many AR Forums!

Andrew, Looking forward to meeting you at the DSC! Also, don't let Michael convince you the .500 is best. We can talk about the .395 at DSC.

Thanks jim and prof242 nice to meet you guys! I have to say prof242 the .500 mdm with the bbw#13 bullets will be hard to beat.looking forward to see you guys next year!

Welcome Andrew I know you will enjoy the information here on AR. I lurked for years myself.
Michael tries to say the other person drank all those beers but you know the truth it sounds like. He is a great person to be around and I look forward to having the pleasure of hunting with him and you to some day. I'm jealous of 7 buffalo on one trip.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Exponential bullet diameter effect?

.395*2 = 0.156025
.500*2 = 0.250000

RIP,

Why are you squaring the diameter? If you're after the change in area it's r squared not d squared. Or are you presenting something else?

because he is concerned with ratios, not exact area. either radius or diameter would work. the other factors are constants and will cancel (drop out of the ratio).

416Tanzan,

If ratios is the consideration why not simply use the caliber ratios? Diameter, radius and area ratios all work out to approximately 4 to 5.

EDITED LATER
I wouldn't be confused if my fat fimgers hit the calc keys correctly. The squares work out to approximately 3 to 5 as does the area. The diameter and radius work out to 4 to 5.

Welcome Andrew,

Like they said dont worry abut language-we dont understand ourselves part of the time-

We have lots of opinions around here so dive in . We do appreciate real experience so I am looking forward to your contributions.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Andrew, Looking forward to meeting you at the DSC! Also, don't let Michael convince you the .500 is best. We can talk about the .395 at DSC.

Prof242,
If I had a custom rifle to be started tomorrow morning, there's no doubt it would be a 395. I'd probably go insane(er) trying to decide which base cartridge to use or choose a new base cartridge for the 395! Further, I'd be talking to CEB to make some solids and noncons in the 320 (approximately) grain brass to compliment the offerings from S&H.

Andrew has a different issue, he's a PH and he's supposed to be carrying a "stopper" to back up his clients. The clients will expect a 50 caliber or bigger and would probably be more impressed with a double (I'll go wash my fingers with soap having used that word on my keyboard). So if Andrew can handle a MDM 50 with the 19 1/2 inch barrel, that will serve him just fine. If not he can try a B&M 50 with a 18 inch barrel. In either case, the clients will be suitably impressed with their PH's "stopper".

Observation...
With snout to tail penetration and optimal damage path would it not be safe to say the 500MDM with the BBW13 with those loads is a stopper class combo? Seems that way to me. Does the 50 B&M seem more of a hybrid hunter/stopper and the 50 SS a DG hunter round? This observation heavily relies of the proper bullet obviously.
Another observation
With the elephant in the thick stuff incident this validates Michaels philosophy of a short and lively hunter/stopper rig. Michael pulled off a great shot when he needed it but I think Michaels 50 B&M with a short light gun and an excelent bullet combo I think should be debated as a new standard in DG hunting.

Boom Stick,

I think you are right. The 50 B&M is perfect for a close range stopper, hunter rifle. Short fast handling and with a #13 solid or non con it will do what any of the bolt action magnum rifles will do. I'd take it any day over a 12 lb 24 inch barreled beast in one of the big standard hunting magnums. From what I've seen the non con would be a safe stopper bullet for most heavy game. Elephant no buffalo yes.

Sam

While I realize you cant kill anything too dead I am wondering if the 50MDM isnt almost overkill. Seven + feet of penetration-wow but from any other angle some of that is wasted. A 50 B&M, 4 inches shorter and 1-1/2 lb lighter might be the all around stopper with the #13 bullets. The hunter rounds would be the 458 B&M and the 416 B&M(thats what I bet on as an all-around).

As you may deduce I am definitely agreeing that Michael has redefined the DGR. From a blunderbuss to a fighting carbine to borrow a phrase. Light & controllable power.

SSR