quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
While I realize you cant kill anything too dead I am wondering if the 50MDM isnt almost overkill. Seven + feet of penetration-wow but from any other angle some of that is wasted. A 50 B&M, 4 inches shorter and 1-1/2 lb lighter might be the all around stopper with the #13 bullets. The hunter rounds would be the 458 B&M and the 416 B&M(thats what I bet on as an all-around).

As you may deduce I am definitely agreeing that Michael has redefined the DGR. From a blunderbuss to a fighting carbine to borrow a phrase. Light & controllable power.

SSR

Well said. We need to remind ourselves that this is a system of bullet, caliber, and rifle all working together!!

My ideal B&M African two rifle combination from the existing line of rifles would be the 9.3 B&M and the 50 B&M. My dream combination would be the presently non-existing 395 B&M (I'm dreaming here people) and the existing 50 B&M.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Boom Stick,

I think you are right. The 50 B&M is perfect for a close range stopper, hunter rifle. Short fast handling and with a #13 solid or non con it will do what any of the bolt action magnum rifles will do. I'd take it any day over a 12 lb 24 inch barreled beast in one of the big standard hunting magnums. From what I've seen the non con would be a safe stopper bullet for most heavy game. Elephant no buffalo yes.

Sam

Sam:

I want to say this as gently and friendly as possible as I mean no disrespect to either you or Michael. I think Michael's work with the solid bullets is truly amazing. I have talked to Michael about this before but as I see it, the problem with the 50 B&M is in the cartridge design. It is a straight walled cartridge with a rebated rim and without a rim, belt, or shoulder. It headspaces on the mouth of the case, much like a pistol cartridge. For me anyway, I think that is not a good situation for a dangerous game cartridge. While I might be wrong, Jeff Smiths 50 AccRel is formed from a cut down .416 Rigby case which allows sufficient shoulder for proper headspace. If that is indeed the case, then I think Jeff's design is superior. Since both cartridges fit into similar guns, I would suggest that Jeff's 50 Acc Rel is the better choice. The .458 B&M is a very attractive alternative to the other, larger .458 cartridges like the Lott, Rigby, and Dakota. In the .375 and .416 calibers, the .375 and .416 Ruger fit into similar rifles and are pretty hard to beat. Michael's 9.3 B&m is a real dandy. Just my thoughts. Don't mean to step on anybody's toes. Please don't kill the messenger.

Dave,

If I may interject- dont worry about toes, The 0 B&M headspace is a valid point. Michael believs he has addressed it but still a point. IMHO the real wonder is the bullets, the B&M case in 458 and 416 is very close to The 458 WM and the 416 Taylor. Purists will argue about efficiency of case design, and a full length action vs a med action. mostly personal preference and I'll bet a case of your favorite beer Michael says the same. I chose to go with the B&M instead of the Taylor in 416 because I found the idea of a system appealing but I will bet a bunch that I own both a 416 Taylor and a 458 WM someday. We Rifle loonies dont need reasons and can split a hair finer than Solomem could. Apply what works for you and stand the consequences--its all good when we have bullets and guns like this.

SSR

IBT,
YAY, another person for the .395, the thinking man's caliber as RIP would say. Yeah, something much bigger would be better as the ph's stopping rifle.
Max

Dave no problem and I understand you might have concerns. The 50 B&M headspaces on the end of the case just like a number of cartridges. The 45 ACP has fired a few rounds over the years without many problems. The 50 B&M is just a long 45 ACP. Too much head space causes problems when you are shooting the same case over and over again. Head separations happen after a few rounds. Heck I have issues with doubles rifles and reloaded brass on a dangerous game hunt. A rimmed case is the worst for the cartridge shoulder not being set properly and it blowing forward every shot. This is a much bigger problem than a case that headspaces on the mouth. Michael has shot the same cases over and over for several years now. He shoots alot believe me!!!!!!! To my knowledge he has never had a case separation with a 50 B&M.

Sam

Sam

450NE need not be so shy! I know he is out there looking! HEH..... Speaking of the 50 B&M SS, I will have work to do when I return on that as well, the new BBW#13s that we received need to be pressure traced, and load data, same with the 50 B&M AK, and 50 B&M with the new bullets, the light ones designed for the AK and SS. In addition to those we have all the new 475 work to do, load data starting from zero, the new CEB and North Fork Bullets coming, then once that is done, terminals with these. So the rest of the summer, plus will be taken up with this work, which is substantial. I am hoping that the hornady 475 B&M dies are in? Both B&M and SS 475s. Not sure if I posted, but I am very taken with the new 450 gr BBW#13 Solid in .474 caliber and it's matching 420 NonCon. Then new .474s coming from North Fork, which I should get when I return. These bullets will turn the new 475s into hammers.


Andrew

HUGE WELCOME!!!!!! I love the new name, Andrew500! Very appropriate and excellent! Very Well Chosen! And your English is no issue, it's better than mine! As I told you back in camp, this is a fine bunch of fellows here, all with common interests, big bores, bullets, rifles, cartridges. While we all have our opinions on some of these things, and we always don't agree 100% down the line, we find common ground and there is a wealth of ideas, knowledge and experience involved. By combining these experiences, and knowledge, we all take something home and learn from it. Having you here as well, adds greatly to that experience, you have seen many 1000s of animals taken with many various bullets, cartridges, and rifles over the years, you will add greatly to our own experiences and knowledge, I am very pleased you decided to join with us. Hopefully this will bring some of the more knowledgeable PHs and guides to the thread as well.

And as for the thorn bush,that was no damned bush, it was a thorned limb the size of a "Baobab" HEH,,, that damned near knocked me out of the back of the truck, leaving me senseless and stupid! Momma nearly passed out, thought I had bought the farm, and I remember your hands shaking thinking your hunter had busted what brains were available completely out! LOL.... HEH HEH..... I managed to pretend to be seriously injured for some time, and milk that for all the sympathy I could get for an hour or so anyway! LOL.........

Thanks for the kind words as well.



Well here I sit this morning in Port St Johns! The weather is much warmer here and I don't even have a jacket on this morning. Momma's dad had some really fine fish dinner last night, like you guys can't imagine. I don't even like fish, but this is far different, best fish I ever eat in my life! Incredible. We will be here until Monday or Tuesday I think. Arriving back in Pretoria on Tuesday. JHC, what a drive down here yesterday. Not sure, 700 + or so kilometers. The last 150 kilometers took over 3 hours to drive. Driving through mountains, switchbacks, up and down, through villages, and most of the way dodging cows, horses, goats, and people on the road. What a ride! It took 13 hours to get here total. Not a lot of stops. The scenery is incredible right here on the coast. We will take some photos for you, but it will be some time before I can post them. I barely have any sort of service here, and with the G3 modem, I have to tote the computer outside, wave it around a bit to get a signal, and takes many minutes just to download page 169 of the thread, and there are no photos on this page. So I won't be posting any reports or photos, or barely much of anything while here.

IBT

Correct, Andrew needs from 458 up in caliber in my opinion for the work he has to do. It would be hard to beat the 500 MDM, it's platform, and the bullets available for this cartridge. In some of the areas we were hunting, thick brush, even the 21 inch barrel on the 500 MDM made one hell of a big difference. Andrew currently carries a 416 Rem with a 24 inch barrel, while in front of me 99% of the time I watched that long musket get hung up on brush many times, while the 21 inch 500 MDM did much better in that respect, and the 18 inch 458 B&M incredible making it's way through dense brush. In the field, weight and length make a hell of a big difference. I know it's hard to buy into, but the 500 MDM is very easy to handle, it's not the beast you would think. Andrew shot the rifle several times with the loads I had with, 500 BBW#13 at 2380 fps, a reduced load, and very effective. Very very manageable. And he shot it very well. After the hunt was finished I removed both scopes from the rifles, and this of course will be the configuration that Andrew will use, no scope iron sights. It handles great. And it's a big hammer in a nice handling package. Weight will be around 8-8.25 lbs with his rifle, as I will build it with no more than 20 inches.

While his rifle is being built I will be working with a new 500 MDM, that gunkoted english stocked rifle I had, that I really built to sell, but screw that, I am keeping it. Soon as I get home, sending it to Brian to shorten that barrel to 19-20 inches, whatever I can get by with so I can put a NECG front barrel band on. The process will most likely ruin the one I have on it now, but that extra inch plus is worth the effort to me! Screw it! The 500 MDM cartridge is so capable that any loss of velocity with the same loads is not a concern at all, as the loads I use for the field are already low pressure, far below potential, any minimal loss of a few fps can be made up easy with only another gr or so of RL 10X. Of no consequence at all. Pauls rifle at 20 inches showed no loss more than one would have in extreme spread between 3 rounds, no loss at all basically.

Boomy

I would have been just as at ease with the 50 B&M and it's shorter handier barrel and platform as the 500 MDM in any of these situations I found myself in. I already know that while velocity is less with the 50 B&M and the 500 BBW#13 at 2150 fps, it's still a hammer. I will concede that the extra velocity the 500 MDM can churn up with the BBW#13 solid, that the bullet will hit harder, do more initial damage with it's 67% meplat. So for the ele that wanted to bite all of us, and I don't blame him I would have done the same, that extra hitting power at 3 yards was nice to have. Myself I am not so convinced about any of the Super SHorts just yet. While for sure on any thin skinned game they will be great, and I think with all the new bullets designed specifically for the Super Shorts from North Fork and CEB, they will be enhanced greatly. Yes, they are capable, and all the thick skinned DG has been taken with far less capable cartridges, but I want to see for myself first before making any sort of claim. Test work says yes, I want to see it.

Cross and Sam

No doubt, I tend to agree with the 50 B&M, it has more than proven itself in the past as being extremely capable. And, I have got just as much total penetration with the 50 B&M in the field on elephant. No doubt about it, overall the short guns handle better, and is my personal choice as well. While the 500 MDM is very capable, it's bigger than even I wanted and after carrying the 500 MDM for several days, then going to either a 50 or 458 B&M there is a big difference and the little guns just are so easy to deal with. All the while, not loosing much in the way of performance, and improved performance with the bullets available.

Dave

Hi buddy! Dave, you bring up a very valid point and off course I know you mean no disrespect at all, and your opinion is ALWAYS welcomed. In the beginning I would not disagree with you on the concerns of headspace and the two 50s, B&M and Super Short. I would be the very last individual to recommend either of these cartridges, and event he 500 MDM with it's tiny ghost shoulder on a push feed rifle, or similar without a large control feed extractor. It has been done, and there has never been an issue that I am aware of, but it was against my advice, and one must pay very close attention to case length in a strictly case mouth headspace situation. I concur with you concerning case mouth only head space.

As for Jeffes 500 AR--it is a superb cartridge, well thought out, well designed and there is no issue at all with it, and as far as I am concerned, it's the very BEST .510 caliber Cartridge out there, I would choose it over any .510 cartridge. Where you are not 100% correct is that both cartridges will not easily fit into similar guns. There is not an EASY solution to put the cartridge in a Winchester M70. For myself, it's a Winchester M70 or I have absolutely zero interest in it at all. This is a personal thing, and no slight on other rifles, just the way I am.

Now, when I did the B&Ms I did things backwards from most cartridge designs. It was not the cartridge I was after and my end goal, it was the platform, or the rifle itself I was after. I took a particular rifle that would be easy converted, Winchester M70 WSM action, and said to myself "What is the largest caliber, cartridge, that I can put in this type action, barrel length, platform that will be suitable and adequate for what I want, a short handy, fast handling DGR that will be able to accomplish my goals?". I had few choices, at the time, in cartridge to use for this, the RUM shortened fit perfectly in the magazine, it would function and feed proper (huge import with DGR) and while I could not go to .510 caliber, I could go to .500. At the time there was no suitable .500 bullets for this mission I had, but since 2007 all has changed on that point. And of course all the other B&Ms from 9.3 to the new .474 derived from the 50. While I concur that the other B&Ms with the shoulder may be a better design than the straight rimless 50 B&M, I also know for a fact, and after many 1000s of rounds fired in the 50, that there is no fault in my line of thinking when the rifle, cartridge and bullet are considered as a package for DG. I worked for many years with the finest defensive handgun cartridge ever developed by mortal man, the wonderful and great 45 acp combined with the finest defensive handgun ever devised, a 1911. Guess what, when the cartridge is considered alone, then yes, it head spaces on the mouth, but consider the 1911 that actually is a control feed handgun, then that cartridge CANNOT go into the chamber any further than the extractor will allow it to go. It cannot possibly overcome the extractor. Same with a Winchester M70 control feed rifle, exact same concept. And truth be known, neither can any other cartridge design, shoulder head space, belt or any other type, cannot go into the chamber further than the extractor will allow it to. THis is merely my experiences on this matter and it's totally up to any of you to choose one way or the other, and with me either is ok as I don't have nothing to sell or gain either way. And of course not stepping on my toes at all.

In fact it's a great discussion that I enjoy, as while I don't wish to be "Rambo-nistic", but I consider the larger B&Ms extremely good hunting/fighting platforms. While larger capacity cartridges, like the 458 Lott for instance of which I have 1/2 dozen and have used in the field extensively, they require much larger platforms, longer barrels, more weight, and they DO NOT HANDLE nearly as well in a fighting situation as does a shorter, lighter, and handier rifle, like the B&Ms. I know this for a fact, as I have done both. Now going to even a larger capacity cartridge, these require even a larger platform, and that is opposite of what I want to handle in the field, and they do not "fight" as well in the heat of a close situation. I know this as well, and is part of the reason for the B&Ms to begin with.

I know for my part, I will never again go to the field with a larger rifle than the 500 MDM--Platform speaking. And even it is larger than what I want to deal with, thus I am going to shorten it even more so when I return. I much prefer the shorter B&M series for carry, for handy use, and these have even proven themselves as stoppers as well. The 50 B&M and the 500 gr BBW#13 solid at 2150 fps will accomplish any mission asked, the North Fork 450 gr CPS and the 460 BBW#13 NonCon are very serious hammers for buffalo and any thin skinned dangerous game you will encounter. I have, and will continue to use this cartridge and it's platform for this very thing and have zero concerns about the cartridge itself, any cartridge or rifle is and has the potential to be an issue, and in my personal opinion the 50 B&M is no more prone to issues than any other cartridge, as long as it's combined with a control feed rifle.

No killing the messenger, you have grown on me over the last couple of years, and I have great respect for your opinion and concerns, and you Dave are welcome in my camp any day! I do see you are liking that Guide Gun however, and even your new "Short" Ruger 338! HEH HEH HEH.......

Cross
I never bought much into that short/fat efficiency thing, and with small bores I can now believe that there is some effect, I do know for a fact that as that bore size gets larger, so does the efficiency factor. The 2.25 inch or actual 2.240 inch B&M cases far exceeded what I expected in the beginning, and on top of that the short barrels. Case capacity is equal to the 458 Winchester case, big difference is that the 458 Win Case cannot be as efficient at shorter barrel lengths? The only other difference is the case itself, shorter, fatter. I don't know what else it could be but the fact there is some burning efficiency having an effect. As bore size gets smaller, so does the efficiency too. If anyone has thought of it a B&M case in a rifle with a 24 inch barrel--I have two single shot 1885 Winchesters in 458 B&M and 416 B&M, both 24 inch barrels, overall length of the rifle equal to a 20 inch bolt gun. I have not fully investigated this, but some of the early loads that are 2125 fps in 18 inches touched 2200 fps in the 24 inch barrel, with a 500 gr bullet. Now this falls into place between 458 Winchester and 458 Lott, and I have not pushed this with modern loads and the new bullets, so I don't really know what potential a 24 inch 458 B&M has? Since I am of no mind to work with a 24 inch bolt gun of any cartridge, not even my own, in the field, I have not investigated this as I might should have. Maybe after some of the more important work is done I should do so. And you are 100% spot on, I did not choose a WSM action because of it's slightly shorter length, I chose it because it is ready to feed and function with the RUM cases and WSM cases. There is very little to no serious work to do with these actions to feed and retain these cases, had the action been a standard action with the same internal magazine capacity to work with the RUM cases, then that would have been dandy with me and of little to no consequence on the end result, except that the B&Ms would have for sure been .25 inches longer to take advantage of the longer magazine. In the end, the WSM action has been just fine, and easy to work with, so I have no regrets on that point at all. The system as is pretty good and I am very satisfied with end results. In the end that slightly shorter action has added to the system, and keeping it just ever so slightly shorter.


Max

It ain't nothing to make a 395 B&M buddy, I know how!


Guys, I know some of these posts of mine are long, realize all of this is done while I am offline, and probably over several hours time,back and forth. Sorry for being long winded. But you guys always have such good topics, and interesting things for me to talk about, it's your own fault, so there!

Many things I am looking forward to getting home to. One of the big ones is my bastogne stocks!!! Yes, Wes at Accurate told me that by the time I returned, they are going to be very close to being ready! Remember the other thread on this? What did I choose? OK, one will be one of my Stainless 500 MDMs. The really super nice best ever blank of the 3-- one of my Stainless 50 B&Ms--flagship you might say of the B&M Series, and cartridge #1. And the 3rd blank? Just before leaving for here I sent Brian a stainless WSM rifle to build myself a new stainless 18 inch 475 B&M to fit this stock to. Why did I do this, hell I don't even know if the 475 is going to be worth a damn? I have some really nice 458s, 416s, and so forth, so I figured I needed one super nice 475 to go to the field with, and I love stainless/wood better than any other.

And Dave, just one more thing. I looked the other day at your thread, and really wanted to throw my 2 cents in, but with my limited access ability did not want too much going on to keep up with. 9.3 or 45/70? Now, if I could change bullets up in your 9.3 rifle, and use either NOrth Forks or The BBW#13s--280 solid and 255 NonCon--Then I might go with the 9.3. If you can't change bullets in the 9.3---then I would take that guide gun chocked full of that new 400 gr BBW#13 Solid it has the .458 diameter going for it, and it's penetration is great and more than enough to do the job, and it's designed specifically to work through the short guide gun actions!

Michael

cross,

I have to admit that I am no expert on rifles and bullets, most of you guys have alot more knowledge than i do in that department.I can only talk about what I experience out in the field.I have been using a 416 rem most of my career and had great results with it over the years.I realy do think that michaels whole package with the 500 mdm and bbw#13 is a step or two ahead of most of the bigger calibers we use over here.first of all the 19-21 inch barrel makes a big differance when it comes to handling of the rifle.Most of the time we hunt in thick cover and this is one area where shorter is better!What people have to realise is that conditions over here are totaly different than other parts of the world and even the best shots in the world finds it difficult sometimes to find their target and this is where i think it is so importent to have the right bullet so that when you do make a bad shot the animal dont go that far.You often find a buffalo or elephant with an angle facing away or whatever the case may be and you need that bullet to penetrate as deep as posible and stay on its course without veering of on impact.I also noticed that the fn bbw#13 makes a much bigger hole in all the thick skin animals wich make them bleed more and that also makes our job of tracking easier.These bullets perform exceptional even if the shot is not so good it causes enough terminal damage to make the animal very sick. i have seen this with the non conventional bullet as well when michael shot a buffalo too far back in the stommack and the buffalo only ran about 100 yards when it stop and was standing with his head down.If you shoot the same shot with a 416 375 or 458 with a normal 400 or 500 grain solid or soft nose that buffalo will take you for a long days walk.

Michal,

Just saw your post,glad you made it in one peace to the eastern cape.enjoy!

Sam

I finally through away that group of 100 pieces of brass I have used since 2006 for the 50 B&M. I can't say how many times that brass has been fired, has to have been 50 + times each, probably more. Finally the primer pockets started getting loose and I decided to toss the lot of them. Never had one split. In fact, the only B&M that we have to watch is the 416 B&M. When fire forming the first time, that shoulder must bump a tad when going in the chamber, if you set that shoulder back too far, then it allows that case to stretch, and after two--three firings it will separate. Bumping the shoulder on the first fire form you won't have any issues with them from that point. I have not had any issues with any of the others, but I now do the new formed cases like the 416 as well. The 50 is the easiest of all, as long as it does not exceed 2.5 inches you never have anything with it, size hell out of it, load and shoot! Same with the 50 Super Short load and shoot hell of them near forever. The 500 MDM is sorta finicky in that respect as well. You must let that first firing bump up a bit, after that, good to go.


Andrew is 100% spot on concerning picking your target in the thick brush. I had one hell of a bad time with that this trip, and partly because my eye sight is getting worse, and I really did not know how to use my new glasses and shoot with them! When anything was standing in brush I had an extremely difficult time making things out, what was what, and the angle at which it was standing. This helped us learn about a bad shot, like Andrew said, straight through the stomach with the 460 BBW#13 HP NonCon, and it did in fact make this buffalo very sick, sick enough to stop and let us pick him up easy with a nice big hole through each side leaking, and causing such distress he pulled up short and we were able to get one in the right spot.

Well here we sit, it's nice weather in the Eastern Cape, we went down bought a bottle of some sort of rum and been busy doing our best to empty it. Since the country has somehow ran completely dry of Castle, I have had to seek my entertainment elsewhere! HEH HEH

Enjoy the rest of your day Boys!

Michael

Andrew500. At first I was going to caution you about what you're getting into associating with the AR group and espically those frequenting this thread. But then I realized that having been exposed to Michael458 you were probably accidently vaccinated. Your immune system should be built up sufficiently to handle the DSC exposure. Just get plenty of rest and drink lots of fluids.

As to the language. We in the US have this education system that works in reverse. The more schooling you get, the less you know. When I started first grade, I could speak two languages and was learning a third. After many years of education and several degrees I can't even speak American english, which I think is still the primary language but I'm not sure about that.

Andrew,

Do you and Michael expect to have much trouble getting the B&M brass and BBW#13 bullets into RSA? I have a friend I am trying to get interested in the B&Ms over there and of course I shoot the 416 so am wondering about components.

SSR

quote:

Exponential bullet diameter effect?

I have been facinated by the reported 50 caliber effect. The reported experience that 50 cals just hit way harder than any smaller caliber. So taking RIP's posting as a start, I've extended his work on ratios from .400 to .600 calibers, every .025.
Using 50 as the point of compairson and basing all ratios on 50, here's what it looks like.
400 6.4 : 10
425 7.3 : 10
450 8.1 : 10
475 9.4 : 10
500 10 : 10
525 11 : 10
550 12 : 10
575 13.2: 10
600 14.4: 10
Don't see anything obvious.

IBT

I admit I am missing the point?

Is it being hypothesized that there is an extra effect at and above .50 cal?

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
IBT

I admit I am missing the point?

Is it being hypothesized that there is an extra effect at and above .50 cal?

SSR

That is the hypothesis based on tales from Africa, usually from PHs. I wish I could reference you better than that, but I'm not in the digging mode at present.

I do not know what happens. Could be just folk lore. RIP raised the possibility of a "Exponential bullet diameter effect?" I was just messing around with a table.

Whenever I run into reports of this type I'm not in a hurry to reject them. Many times there's something happening that is not properly identified or has the wrong explaination but there is something happening!

Here we're talking about the effect of the diameter of the bullet. The problem is we can't hold everything else constant so how do we do an experiment compairing these calibers? There are approaches that permit multiple variables to be tested at once but outside of knowing who to call when I needed a multiple variable experiment done before I retired, I'm not an expert in that technology.


Quote from Michael458

Diameter does in fact matter and makes a hell of a difference. Way back 2006 I was taking these loads to Africa with Andrew at the time, all working in 45/70 velocities. I really expected something like 45/70 performance (sorry guys, a little ho-hmmm in my opinion) which is decent performance, but not a big hammer on nothing I ever shot with, and it's been a lot. The .500s at these working velocities really surprised me, animals like wildebeast and zebra were folding up shop on the spot!!!!! It was like looking at 458 Win or even Lott performance, and all because of diameter and caliber I figure! Well, that's my story anyway, sticking to it until I learn better. And as velocity increased with the .500s in the 50 B&M to 2100-2250 fps, things got more impressive, and of course the 500 MDM and velocity from 2300-2500 fps things really started to happen BIG time! So............


Michael

Crossl

See what I mean?

Hi all.

Very first off the rank is that I would like to express my relief, Mike, that you are still intact and in one piece and still able to continue your mission to illiminate the buffalo on my hunting concession !

Is it poor taste of me to diverge from the seriousness of the situation you found yourself in, and the potential consequences, to point out the irony/aptness that it was a rifle of your design, chambered in a cartridge of your concept, firing a projectile which is a result of your testing and design that inevitably saved your life in the very circumstances for which all three components were designed for ?

Seeing i am the "poor cousin" from Down-Under and wont be getting the Royal introduction that Andrew received (joking, for those that don't know me), let me introduce myself on this, my first, post on this site.

My name is Paul Truccolo, owner/operator of Southern Safaris Australia and i have been following this thread ever since my introduction to Mike and his lovely wife Jaun, in 2009.
I had, what I consider a privalige, a hunt for Asiatic buffalo in Arnhemland with Mike in that same year, a report of which has been written about here elsewhere.

I still quite vividly remember our intitial per-hunt meeting in a Motel in Gove.
Leaning over and shaking his hand, I noticed a distinct "glint" in his eye and a level of enthusiasm for all things buffalo and big bores, I'd rarely seen before.

The following 10 days included some of the most valuable lessons, for me, as a hunter/shooter, that i had gained in any one short period from anyone, anywhere.
It was Mike that can take the credit for teaching me that big bores do not have to have a "proper" pre-conceived carry weight (that, amongst many other things).

Without wanting to turn this into a "love-fest" for Mike, I would like to reinforce the comments made by Andrew500 regarding Mike as a Hunter, as a Shooter and as a Freind.

If I had any rights to any Indigenous heratige, I would have named Mike; He Who Walks The Walk.

I'm sure few, if any, of you that frequent this thread, and have followed the developments of the series of cartridges and projectiles need much convincing.

Having seen, first hand, the results of the 500MDMD, the 50 B&M and the 458 B&M on our "second toughest buffalo-next to Cape buffalo" (and I quote, "by some measure"), I can assure any of you that have any remaining doubts, these cartridges/rifles and projectile combinations are FAIRDINKUM and the Real-Deal.
I say this as someone awaiting for shipping of two of my own of these rifles to Australia, one a 500 MDM the other in Lott (a sentimental choice) , both rifles to be employed as back-up weapons on my buffalo hunts.

I would like to use my first post to thank Mike for his extreme generousity in sharing his knowledge and for all of the time, expense, effort and "smarts" he has applied to this concept all the way back from 2005 to now so that people like me can benifit, learn and grow.

I look forward to further developments.

Best regards to all,

Paul Truccolo.

Welcome Paul,

As Michaels web spreads over the world we here in the states hope to learn from those of you in the field.

Seriously Michael has done so much for all of us, we are just luck to be here reaping the dividend.

Be prepared --it gets rowdy here ansd there is the occasional sharp elbow.

Drink a brew down under for us on July fourth.



SSR

Welcome Paul,

I look forward to meeting you in Dallas and hunting with you and Michael next summer. Michael has told me lots about you and I know we will hit it off. Michael and I met a little over a year ago and it has been tons of fun ever since. He is a great guy to be around and I know hunting with him has got to be a hoot!

Sam

G'day Cross L and Sam, thank-you for the warm welcome.

Cross L, please don't expect to learn too much from me, as Mike will attest, I'm as thick as the hide on a buff's neck !
Orders are orders, yes i will have a few frothies for all of you for the 4th !!!

Sam, your visit with Mike is a highlight of my 2012 calendar. I look forward to both meeting you in Dallas as well as sharing my camp with you. Prepare yourself for some hectic hunting and if Mike hasn't already warned you, guard your doubles carefully !

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Maybe the larger diameter will have exponential results but dead is dead.
Maybe these bullets should be called overkill bullets

IBT:
Rip was just playing along with the obvious truth of the statement from boom stick. I did not bring up that bit of physical reality.
See above.
Nothing dramatic, just real.
And thanks to "sumbuddy who know" (416Tanzan) for pointing out the direct proportionality factor if you square either the radius or the diameter.
Like sectional density being calculated by the square of the bullet diameter:
Pounds per square inch of a square bullet cross section, is still directly proportional to using the reality of a round bullet cross sectional area, just handier to calculate.
"Pie are square" has its place if you need more than just the ratio of the exponential effect.

Now for the unreal: Your physics is neither Newtonian nor Einsteinian Relativity!

Bullets do not speed up in forward/linear velocity after losing petals in expansion.
Nor do they increase their rotational/angular velocity after dropping the petals.
No, not at all like an ice skater pulling in her arms.
If her outstretched arms fell off, she would continue spinning at the same speed as when her arms autoamputated.
If she had forward motion when her outstretched arms fell off, she would continue forward at the same speed,
and by golly those arms would continue forward too, just slowing down from friction with the air as they fell, and ice rink surface friction after they hit.


Everyone has looked at the link that boom stick posted of the Bullet Test Tube wax penetration by the Lehigh NonCon.
No one saw petals going backward after release.
Surely you jest! Or ...


You sir, will not think your way into owning a .395 until you become a correctly thinking man, I pray, for the sake of the caliber.

Now back to enlightenment for the rest of us.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

"Pie are square"

RIP

I thought every country boy knew that is wrong-

Pie are round, Cornbread are square.



SSR

Cross L,
True, but corn dodgers may be round, and cobblers may be square ... make mine rhubarb!
Hey, let's not confuse IBT.
I hope he gets his thinking cap square on his head, and some ice cream on his round pie.

SSR

A priceless "gem" from jeffeosso worth repeating:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
MM,
glad you are alive.. that's not back trouble, sir.. that's the diamond that formed in your rectum during the elephant encounter!

Doc M,
Glad to hear that the back pain has passed.
Now, don't break a leg!
And keep those thorns out of your ears!

169 page, electron killed more than animal kill by weight.

Welcome to the menagerie Paul. Really liked the look of your 500 MDM and hope it serves you well – just don’t use it to control the boys next year…it sounds like you’ll have your hands full with Michael and Sam. I look forward to meeting you if I make DSC in 2012.

@ CLint==

Do you still have any 375 noncons that you need to get rid of? I have a seemingly unlimited number of pigs that would make pretty good test medium. I bought a box a few days ago and will try them out soon. Does anyone have a load for 375 H&H?


I have been playing with the "old-style" NonCon and hope to have data soon.

**Note*** It will be a max load in my rifle, so use with caution.

@ Michael,

Glad to see you got back in one piece. Check in mail for bullets.

Sasquatch

Cross

quote:

Do you and Michael expect to have much trouble getting the B&M brass and BBW#13 bullets into RSA? I have a friend I am trying to get interested in the B&Ms over there and of course I shoot the 416 so am wondering about components.

Very good question. Andrew has ordered up a 500 MDM and a 9.3 B&M. When I return home I will be getting these two rifles going for him. He has checked on his end and there seems to be no issues with getting the first run of brass,bullets ammo in the initial import. I intend to use the same exporter our side as we have used for sending Daryl and Paul their rifles, brass, bullets and such to Australia. To begin with I am going to load the ammo for Andrew on the first export myself. Then later on before DSC Andrew will be coming to visit with me and he will be getting a lesson on hand loading these. I plan to get him enough loaded ammo for the 500 MDM to last a few years for his backup rifle, the 500 MDM. And, I want to make sure each piece of ammo is perfect and that he will never have any issues with it, so I am taking care of that myself.

I don't think there will be too much of an issue in the future, and during the time I hope to be learning something about some of the RSA powders so that he can be at some point self reliant when it comes to the ammo.


Paul Truccolo

Very excellent, I am very pleased to see you go ahead and join up, you have lurked enough, time to throw in and get mixed up with us! This is a fine bunch of chaps here, like I said earlier when Andrew joined in, all of us are like mind, big bores, bullets, rifles and cartridges! We thrive on it.

As for the ele situation that we got into, I do admit, it was very gratifying to have used the 500 MDM and the BBW#13s in that situation, and to have come out on top, no doubt about it. But, there are many other rifles and cartridges out there that would have been plenty sufficient as well. Now after investigating that heart shot, and the damage done to the heart upon entry, there is zero doubt in my mind that the big flat nose hit that heart hard, and did far more damage to it than a bullet with a smaller meplat, and most certainly a "round nose solid". The entry on that elephants heart was severe trauma and damage, and absolutely had to contribute to the quick turn around he made. Those that expose that the flat nose solids don't hit hard up front, are quite frankly ignorant, or just full of crap, one or the other, and nothing in between! I have seen the effect of the flat nose solids on many many other occasions, and you have too, and we have both used round nose and flat nose solids in the field extensively. There is no doubt on this matter.

Hey Cousin, I brought you into the fold on "Royal" status after our hunting in 2009, don't give me that! HEH HEH..... Not my fault you took two years before joining in with the crowd! LOL.......

Paul Truccolo and his lovely wife Dee Dee are also part of the family, our relationship not as long as Andrew and I, but just as good. Paul and I hit it off perfect just a few days in, he was of like mind and interests, and that is all it takes. We got along like two peas from the same pod and had one hell of a good time, as all of you already know about. Paul loves buff hunting as good as I do, loves big bore rifles and has a keen interest in good and proper bullets to do the job or accomplish the mission at hand!

There is one thing I will say about both Paul and Andrew, a point that is very important to me personally, is the fact that both of these guys are 100% Genuine and sincere, they are not your pretend friend while on Safari, and something else later after the money has dried up. They are the same, before, and after and what you see is what you get! This ain't my first rodeo, and I did not just fall off the cabbage truck, been there, seen many things, and this is one reason I call both these guys "family". End of story!


Sam

Paul mentioned doubles, reminds me, a few days ago I mentioned the H&H Royal 450 NE this fellow had coming into camp, did you catch that? Man when we roll into Australia next year it's gonna be a hoot for sure! There will be 4 shooters for Paul to have to sort out, as I plan now on taking Matt and Mark David. Then add Sam and myself to the mix, Poor Paul! HEH HEH.... Then add all the rifles and bullets! This is gonna be a test ground. I plan on having the boys work with some of the Super SHorts, and a 9.3 B&M. I am taking the new 475 B&M, Sam I am sure you will have that 500 Nitro VC I love so good, and maybe the 577 as well, all these chocked full of BBW#13s and North Forks. Those poor buffalo! I figure Paul better have at least a 100 buffalo lined up ready to go! Can anyone spell "Extinct", as that is what might happen in our land Down Under to the Australian version of the Asiatic Buffalo! Hmmmm?

Can you imagine what will happen when we run into a herd of 20 or so? I figure Sam and I on each end, boys in the middle and let nothing escape! Paul as referee to the rear! HEH HEH HEH....... Terrible affair eh?

RIP

Thanks buddy, yes the back pain, mostly leg pain has all but vanished now. Thanks to that great Chiro in Pretoria! What a fine young chap he is. He gave me a serious working over! I am sorry I have not posted on the .395 thread, but have been looking, my current status is limited as to how much I can keep up with while here. The new CEBs you had Dan do look very good, I hope you are going to do some terminals on those? You know me, I am not much of a pointy fellow, I would like to make sure that pointy thing opens up proper for you. I am sure it will, as Dan is a pointy guy and all his other pointy things open up and do a great job from what I understand.


Paul

One more thing, what is the word on your stuff from Jason and the export????

Michael

Clint....

On the 375 bullets I have used max loads with old style-small cavity hollow point NonCons. I am going to do the rest of my load work with solids. My buddy JeffeOsso likes H335. I am not the expert he is but I think H335 is a bit too fast for 275gr bullets in .375H&H. I am going to start with 75gr of H380 and increase the load one grain at a time. OAL somewhere around 3.6 inches. 215 primers--the ones I win at our bigbore shoots in Juliff,Texas. I understand neck tension is the best way to hold bullets in place, at least these with bands. If your expander is oversize try holding with a cordless drill and polishing with 1200 paper. Even the reduction of .001 will make a big difference so be careful.

Lots of Pigs...Really???!!! There are a few of us here that come with references and are very responsible hunters and would love to come help you experiment on these porkers. PM me for more details.

Michael---any thoughts or suggestions?

Sasquatch

Capoward, thank-you for your welcome. I really don't think I'll need much to "control" the boys next year.
I'm picking they'll be a spent bunch coming in from each days hunting !
Yeh, I think that new 500 looks awesome, can't wait to get my paws on it and loose a few off. I reckon it's really going to spoil some poor buffalo's days.
Look forward to seeing you at DSC.

Mike thanks for the welcome, my apologies for not joining sooner but as you are aware my facualties limit my potential to working a bolt, driving a truck and sharpening a knife.

From what I have seen and read here you guys have this development and design business down pat.

Current results are now vindicating all of the previous pages.

I haven't heard from Jason for a little while, re the rifles, suppose they can't be too far off.
Can't wait to get my hands on that .500 !
Them flat nose #13's sound like the manner from....

G'day to Jaun and Mercedes for me,

Paul.

Michael and Paul,

We better start trying to figure out how to get enough ammo to Australia for the 4 of us to shoot. Even at 9 lbs per person that ain't gonna cut it. Paul do you reload? Maybe we can send a Dillon press to you so you can start making it.
Doubles for me yes but I might have to bring one of those little short guns too!

Sam

Clint

I can't remember answering your original question? Anyway, I think Drew bought me out of 375s before I left, with the exception of that wonderful 300 BBW#13 Solid. I would bet Dan has some NonCons in stock, give him a call if you need, and if not, I can get another run done when I get back home.

Drew

As for loading 375 I am ignorant, but if neck tension doesn't hold tight enough, I don't mind a crimp in them at all, between the bands depending on seating depth. I think somewhere I recall someone loading RL 15 in 375? But I really can't say, never loaded one in my life, the best use I ever seen for 375 brass was to make 458 Lott or 470 Capstick out of it! HEH...... I have a bunch of 375 brass for that purpose, left over from the old days, and before I found out 416 REmington made better 458 Lott brass than 375 HH.

Paul, will tell the girls hello, and Mercedes says soon as she gets home she is going to Skype you! LOL.... I had a 500 MDM built the same time as yours, most here know this already. It is 21 inches, and gunkote, same AA English stock as yours, and I had it built for someone who might want one, but really did not want to wait or go thru the build process. I have threatened to keep it from the time it was delivered, but continued to convince myself what will I do with 4 500 MDMs! Well screw it, soon as I get home, sending it to Brian, don't give a damn what he has to do, I intend to shorten that barrel to max of 20, and if I can get by with 19 and the stock still look the correct length compared to barrel then I will do 19. I might make Wes at Accurate shorten the end of the stock and go 18 inches, the hell with it!

Sam

Let's see, if you take a 50 Super Short, I won't take one, we will use yours. Or one of the others. 11 lbs of ammo each, and they rarely check that anyway. Plus, we have Jaun and Mercedes along too, so that's an extra 22 lbs! Between all of us, we can tote what, 66 lbs? Need a calculator, heh heh.....

Man I tell you, a good portion of the fun going on a trip is decided what to take, which cartridge, then for me, which rifle as I can't help myself, I have several of each, then what bullet for the mission at hand, then the test work begins! Next year has to be the year for the Super Shorts, 9.3 B&M and the 475 B&M.

M

Michael,

If I take my 577 thats only 6 boxes of ammo!!! I guess we will just have to line 3 or 4 up and do a domino effect. If Paul can get powder I can take bullets for refills. Maybe since that 45-70 #13 did so well I will just take my little double and a Super Short. I wish the airlines would get off this 11 lb crap.

Sam

Hello all let me introduce myself my name is Gary.Well it was my good fortune to find this forum some four days ago.I read it from Miclaels first post back in I think 11 of 09. All of you and your contrabutions to this forum in a word fascinate me. Now I am a reloader collector have built a few rifles on a entry level.I do not wish to clog this forum with my chatter but I can't just sit back and not say hi all and thank you. Now not long ago I got my first big bore , a Ruger# 1 in 450x400 it is my plan to hunt cape Buff with this rifle. It is getting a new stock now and I also intend to use it on my next moose and bear hunt.For cape buff which of these bullets would you all use .How do I find it in .410 for my 400 cal.Michael I agree with your freinds you should write a book . And I along with countless others am very glad the ele.. did not step on one of our national treasures.I thank you all and if you don't mind I will be in the back ground of this forum Learning.

Hello Gary and welcome. If you read the whole Terminal thread in four days you must be a speed reader. I don't think I've read the whole thing in over a year. I think you will find a lot of valuable information here. We have all learned a lot because of this thread of Michael's.

Sam

Mike, let Mercedes know I will be waiting for her full African hunting report via Skype on your return home !

Re the .500.
With the level of ballistics this cartridge produces, it provides the luxury of choosing a barrel lenght that contributes to handling quality and portability without any sacrifice in performance. For me personally, 20" is ideal. Easy to carry and fast to swing and shoot with plenty of punch. I already regret doing the same with the Lott but that may get done later.
If I could, like you, I would probabaly even consider a shorter barrel but I find anything under 20" starts to make my damaged hearing ring like a dinner bell.

Mike & Sam, hey you guys might need to charter a specific flight just to carry your arms and ammo !
Or I might need to add an annex to camp and build a reloading room.
I'm glad the airline has those ammo weight restrictions, else you guys are going to shoot me out of house and buffalo.

I'm keen to see some of the other horses in the B&M stable, especially so the 9.3.

This hunt is going to make for a very unique and interesting collection of modern big bores and state of the art, high performance projectiles.

Bring it ON !

Thank you Sam. I was able to read it in four days . As I took a fall in the woods a week ago and an old back injury has come to vist me. Stuck in this drn chair I decided to google load data for my new 450x400.And up popped accurate reloading. How does one. get there hands on the non con in .410 I would imagine it a spec order.I would like to use this on my next spring black Bear. And my cape buffalo hunt .My Big Bore experience is limited to my new #1 and a#1 in 45 70 and a couple 1895 marlins which I really like.I want to shoot this 400 A LOT and develope a very good load before going on my Buffalo hunt.

Michael, Sam & Terminal Bullet Performance Gang,

I started reloading in 1959 and it didn't take long to realize that the bullets I was using were not satisfactory.
I started doing autopsies on all the game I shot when I was 15 yrs. old. The Nosler Partition served me well for many years, then along came the Barnes TSX.
One of my lifelong dreams was to own a double rifle and I finally got a .450/.400 Heym regulated with Hornady. I dug out all the bullets behind the target and all had failed. Also tried A Square (round nose don't work!)
I got hooked on elephant hunting thinking the .450/.400 was a little light (probably not with the #13 solids), although a wonderful penetrating caliber.
I decided I needed something a little bigger and got a .450NE, also regulated with Hornady. The solids and softs also all failed.
I tried regulating with Barnes solids flat nose and TSX and figured these were going to be the best dangerous game bullets available.
In frustration with what was available, I searched for a better bullet and somehow ended up on the AR terminal forum.
Hallelujah!
I realized that Sam & Michael were the guys I needed to talk to, got ahold of them, and the rest is history!
I have found the best big and dangerous game bullet ever, which also regulates very well in both of my doubles. The .409 solids and non-cons regulate well in the .450/.400. The .457 solids and non-cons and the North Fork .450 SS all regulate very well in the .450NE.
I'm very happy with these bullets and their accuracy (am very fortunate to have a 400 yd. range right at the house).
Michael's field testing is proving to be even more than I hoped for and I can't wait to do my own field testing!
It has been a privilege to benefit from all of Sam & Michael's work - THANK YOU BOTH!!!
I've become a B&M rifle convert. The .416 shoots incredibly accurate and I haven't had a chance to work with the .458 B&M yet. Both stocked by Accurate Innovations.
A Ranger sniper friend was very impressed with the fit and feel of both rifles.
My last visit was an invaluable education with you, Michael, and I'm really looking forward to the next class and the 50SS!
Sam, looking forward to meeting you after all your help with the doubles for 10 mos. over the phone!
Pachyderms Beware!

Mike

BTW, that 500 MDM bullet that penetrated the buffalo from forehead to buttock skin, sticking out the rear,
that was a 500-grain BBW#13 like offered currently on the CEB website, wasn't it?



And the companion 460-grain NonCon game shredder:




Doc M quote regarding the new CEB FBH .395-caliber/240-grain bullet:
************************************************************************************************

"The new CEBs you had Dan do look very good, I hope you are going to do some terminals on those?
You know me, I am not much of a pointy fellow, I would like to make sure that pointy thing opens up proper for you.
I am sure it will, as Dan is a pointy guy and all his other pointy things open up and do a great job from what I understand."
************************************************************************************************


Doc M,
Just testing for expansion of a copper hollowpointy bullet: I learned a trick when working with the GSC HVs.

I line up three 5-gallon "Homer Buckets" of water end-to-end, sealed tight. These rest in a wooden beam trough on wooden deck stair hangers.
Three buckets shot end-to-end will catch any "soft" made of copper or cup&core.
The higher the velocity, the harder the water gets, and the bigger the explosion of the first bucket,
but the bullet usually puts a small bent in the bottom of the third bucket, and comes to rest there.
Might need to add more buckets for those CEB brass NonCons of .500-caliber, but it worked for .395/310-grain S&H brass NonCon at 1600 to 2600 fps.



1600, 2100, and 2600 fps loads are fired into the Homer Buckets.

If a copper hollowpoint will start to open up at 1600 fps and blow all petals off, or fold them all back maximally, at 2600 fps,
that is good performance.

Of course the large hollowpoint of a brass NonCon will shed all petals reliably at all those velocities, and lesser velocity too.
And the primary missile looks about the same at all velocities after the secondary missiles blast off.
Faster is better. More damage from all missiles of a NonCon.
But even moderate velocities are devastating with a NonCon, aye, as you are proving.

The small-pointed copper hollowpoint that does not open up may become as squirrely as a round nose solid, regarding terminal trajectory, aye!

I am bogged down in work lately, and also I have my current 3 wildcats still in the works:
49-10 aka "49-bore/.500 caliber/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved of 2010"
.395 H&H Magnum
and the latest
404 RIP aka "404/.416 Rigby Improved Plus"

But I always find time to read this thread. I have read it all, and will continue to follow this league of extraordinary gentleman,
growing more interesting every day.

450NE,

Glad you decided to jump in. It has been a real pleasure finding this group of great fellow shooters and hunters. Meeting Michael was also a real pleasure and I have learned a lot from him also. Having always been a fan of big bores and doubles this is the place to be. I too look forward to meeting you soon and maybe hnting some elephant in the future together.

Sam

Gary,

I'm not sure if a run of .410s has been made yet but I think someone did request them. There is a great .409 that is perfect for the 450-400. Dan at CEB can surely fix you up. There are good 45-70 400 grain solids available but at low velocity the non cons didn't expand in my 45-70.

Sam

Rip I thought it was the 460 grain