quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Ok… I really know squat about how to compute the BC of a bullet so QD designed a simulated 361gr .500 ESP Raptor with Talon Tip to play around with QL, and QT. Both QL and QT identify the G1 Std ICAO of the 361gr .500 ESP Raptor with Talon Tip as 0.296 BC… for whatever that’s worth.

And playing a little further with QT, using RIP KUR’s velocity QT indicates 1902 fps and 4440 ft-lbs at 300yds.

And... extremely nice shooting RIP KUR. Now I wonder what you'll do with the 430gr MTH at 300yds.

Yes, .300 (0.296) looks closer to probable reality than .225 BC.

Now the 430 MTH should have a significantly sleeker BC. Someone once posted 0.426 BC.

Once both bullets have reliable BC's, the hunter can decide which to use. The absolute first rule of "terminal performance" is to make sure that a bullet capable of penetrating reaches the correct target so that the terminals can begin. We're talking Bullet Placement. Calibre and bullet construction have their role, but getting to the target is the first priority. Hunters need to shoot with margins for a slight breeze and bullet drop. These become significant over 200 yards and the magnitude of the significance is proportional to the BC.

Myself? .050-.100 points of BC don't mean so much to me out to 300 yards (which is 98% of my hunting experience and I could live happily if it became 100%). But over .100 points of BC do become significant. If the MTH gains .100 to .200 BC points over the ESP Raptor, then I would choose it for general hunting. After all, the MTH also has guaranteed penetration and reasonable expansion, something that is less-reliable in cup and core and in most very-low-drag bullets.

Guaranteed penetration is a must if one encounters dangerous game or large game. Higher BC's "> +.100" then become significant over 200 yards.

I do hope to shoot something with this Raptor and the MTH, to see the terminal ballistics first hand.
Until then, to relate this to "terminals":

I can work nicely with a BC estimate for the Raptor being 0.260 (using Doc M's 0.257 to 2 significant digits), for 0-2700 fps window.

Correcting a 5-yard 2903 fps velocity to muzzle: add 17 fps here
MV of 2920 fps.
Sight Height of 1.70"
Zero at 100 yards >>> -13.65" at 300 yards, calculated, compares well with human error allowed at the range.

So ...
Zero at 245 yards gives this trajectory:
+ 2.98" at 100 yards
+ 2.47" at 200 yards
- 4.74" at 300 yards remaining velocity 1993 fps, 3174 ft-lbs KE

Should be a reliable expander at 300 yards, yawohl.
There, we are now back to terminals.
I will get the 430-grain MTH tested to 300 yards too, whenever I can ...

quote:

Zero at 100 yards >>> -13.65" at 300 yards, calculated, compares well with human error allowed at the range.

Since your groups were so tight, the error factor is small. If you were sighted in .5" high at 100 yard then you need to subtract 1.5" from the aggregate drop, or -12".

Meaning a slightly better BC

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Zero at 100 yards >>> -13.65" at 300 yards, calculated, compares well with human error allowed at the range.

Since your groups were so tight, the error factor is small. If you were sighted in .5" high at 100 yard then you need to subtract 1.5" from the aggregate drop, or -12".

Meaning a slightly better BC

Gonna write that off as "harder-hold-down" benchrest human error.
This is like horse shoes and hand grenades.
Close counts with an ESP Raptor (there: another terminal ballistic reference),
although they are about as accurate a bullet as can be found.
They are "hunter friendly bullets."
I'll zero it 3" high at 100 yards and see if it is close to 4" low at 300 yards.
Done.

Regardless of the actual BC of the 361gr .500 Talon Tipped ESP Raptor, or it's 300yd trajectory, the thing I like most about RIP KUR's target testing is that it substantitiates Dan's earlier 600yd testing with the tipped .375 Raptor...That being that these bullets are extremely accurate at long distances which will make our job as humane hunters much easier!

Just an update on my modifications and success with CEB's in my .450 Marlin.
Had the throat of my takedown Browning BLR lengthened to 2.860. Am using one modified BLR .450Mar magazine and the .300WSM magazine I got from you, Michael. These will allow OALs of the current length...OR, an OAL of 2.950 if I lengthen the BLR's throat again.

Using my Oehler chronograph, velocity/energy with the 400gr noncon solid is over 2150fps/4050ftlbs with X-terminator powder. With the 370gr noncon hollowpoint. am getting over 2200fps/4000ftlbs. This with a 20" barrel (short enough for me). No pressure signs. Accuracy is excellent, sometimes showing three bullets touching or close at 100 yds (Michael: yeah, I know you can't see that far).

Will be shooting this combo for awhile to see if I want to lengthen the chamber that last tenth of an inch. In this 7-1/2 lb gun and scope, I know when I touch one off. Friends joke about the amount of flame coming out of the barrel. They accuse me of wanting to shoot and cook game at the same time.

Nice stuff 242
What do you think about loading up some 300 grain raptors for 2,500 fps?

Bommy,
Would love to get 2500 fps with the 300gr Raptors, but have only reached just under 2400 fps with the Barnes TTSX. The added 1/10" of case capacity by going out to 2.95" many not be enough for that. I DO think that 2450 would be an achievable goal. Also, have not gone up high enough for definite pressure concerns yet. Your 2500fps may yet be seen.

I finnaly got my .510 light weights I had Dan make for ME! A 475 grain Non Con and a 510 grain solid. As we all know Michael got them before I did. He's the Boss. I have loaded up a few rounds for my 500 NE doubles and plan on trying to shoot a little today. These bullets should be great for those who want to reduce recoil in their 500 NEs. They should be great for all the .510 bolt guns as well. If Michael will hurry up and put them through the terminals we should see that they will be great buffalo and elephant medicine.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I finnaly got my .510 light weights I had Dan make for ME! A 475 grain Non Con and a 510 grain solid. As we all know Michael got them before I did. He's the Boss. I have loaded up a few rounds for my 500 NE doubles and plan on trying to shoot a little today. These bullets should be great for those who want to reduce recoil in their 500 NEs. They should be great for all the .510 bolt guns as well. If Michael will hurry up and put them through the terminals we should see that they will be great buffalo and elephant medicine.

Sam

And, if you are waiting on me to do terminals on Said Bullets--Then you are backing up! As I just stepped in from the range doing exactly that, at least for LVSP Work--Which I now have for both .510 BBW#13 NonCons--475 and 530!

Will be working on my little report and photos, and have Information posted shortly!

M

Hello Michael,

What an outstanding loading room and indoor shooting arrangement! Very nice, to say the least and I wish I had your set-up!

Cheers!

Hi LuvToReload! Welcome to the thread. And thank you!

Ok as promised I did the LVSP on the two .510 NonCons this morning. As suspected, the new wider cavity on the .510s did exactly what they were supposed to do. I am very pleased with the results. This means you guys with 500 Nitros and starting these off at 2150 or so have your LVSP range at 175 yards or so. I doubt any of you will be shooting buffalo at that range. However, its there if you need it.

I also mentioned somewhere that this week I re-discovered my "51 Alaskan" in Ruger #1! This was in the days just before the 50 B&M Alaskan. 51 being of course .510. I had forgotten this little jewel of a rifle, and it was PERFECT to do this work with this morning. Far better than that beast of a 510 Wells!






What a pleasure it was to work with.


Sam's new 475 BBW#13 NonCon HP. If I was doing 51--this is the bullet, with it's matching 510 Solid. LVSP 1450 FPS



And now the new .510 530 gr BBW#13 NonCon HP--LVSP 1500 FPS.




Next weekend I have Alaskan Ox on the scene for a few days. I figure along with all the other stuff we will be doing, we can work on some terminals with these two bullets at velocity, now that we have LVSP accomplished. I personally want to run that 475 up in both the 51 Alaskan, and then see where I can take it in the 510 Wells too! Same with the new 530 as well. So we will save that for next week.

Michael

Michael that is awesome work...very nice LVSP on the 475gr and 530gr NonCons.

Did you also get some of the Talon x Tips? If so, what is the length of the 475gr NonCon from the lower edge of the upper band to the tip of the talon x? I'm wondering if the Talon tipped NonCon would function through the magazine of a standard 3.6" long action magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael that is awesome work...very nice LVSP on the 475gr and 530gr NonCons.

Did you also get some of the Talon x Tips? If so, what is the length of the 475gr NonCon from the lower edge of the upper band to the tip of the talon x? I'm wondering if the Talon tipped NonCon would function through the magazine of a standard 3.6" long action magazine.

Or a 3.4" magazine, for that matter.

I was wondering if the 458 win mag with non con and ogive tip will mag feed on a 458 Lott.

quote:

I'm wondering if the Talon tipped NonCon would function through the magazine of a standard 3.6" long action magazine.

quote:

Or a 3.4" magazine, for that matter.

quote:

I was wondering if the 458 win mag with non con and ogive tip will mag feed on a 458 Lott.

No.

Absolutely Not.

No again.

NO--No--No........


Won't do it boys!

M

Looking at the sheared petals reminded me of something...that being the controversy over lead fragments being scattered throughout the wound channel and the alleged potential hazard to human' unknowing consumption. The large size of the six sheared NonCon petals, if they remain within the game animal seemingly, would eliminate the potential unknowing consumption issue. Anyway just a thought.

Wonderful LVSP on both of the new .510 NonCons.
But, it is odd (assuming the HP dimensions are the same for both bullets) that the heavier bullet has a slighly higher LVSP, even with more ass end (higher SD) driving the expansion.
Must be a statistical quirk, from small sample, on the ragged edge of certifiably scientific at MIB.
Overall very significant support for an excellent LVSP for these bullets.

Jim,
I concur that eating meat that might have an easily detected brass "chunk" in it is much better than eating meat that could have hard to detect lead chunks and dust in it.

Brass is easier to detect when you bite into it, rather than the softer and more easily chewed lead.
Also brass is so much more appetizing in appearance, bright and shiny gold.
Lead is dull, gray, harder to see, and overall less appetizing.

Yet another reason that brass NonCons are hunter-friendly bullets.
But don't tell Terry Wee-wee-land about any of this.
Let the Luddite get lead poisoning.
... Then again, that is not nice! Maybe that is already the problem with his mind.
Maybe he should get his lead level checked ...

Guess I should have specified - from the 500 AccRel which is designed for a 3.4" mag - but likely your answer is the same...Especially if the nose is .700" or greater in length.

A slight aside for a good guy report:

I recently purchased a new Oehler 35P chronograph. When i set up for the first time it read correctly on 22LR but on all high power rounds the primary channel read twice why the proof channel did- example

416 B&M 300 gr barnes 2407 01 4835

Got on the phone with their customer service-they worked with me for over an hour. Still didn't work. Oehler said they would send me a new unit, to keep the old one for a week or so and see if I could get it to work.This was 4:30 thurs afternoon. the new unit showed up UPS the next day!!!!!!!no shipping and a pre-paid label for the return.

The new unit works perfectly--

This is/was my first chronograph and am gearing up for my first African Hunt. I was stressing. :hillbilly:

it was wonderful to do business with an american company that had such wonderful customer service.

Two thumbs up for Oehler Research and a public thanks.

SSR

Cross, what bullets are you using and what game?
Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Cross, what bullets are you using and what game?
Good luck!

The plan is:

416 B&M AI stock

350 gr CEB BBW #13--Elephant

320 gr CEB BBW#13 Non con --cape buff

300 gr Barnes TSX for PG and targets of opportunity.

Don't know what else might end up on license-giraffe? Hippo?

Hope I gan get a barnes load the will shoot to POI of the CEB's . The New Chrony will make sure I am running all loads to spec.

SSR

You could be the first to try the 300 grain 416 Raptor on game if that was to your likings. That would make an all CEB Safari!
Good luck!

quote:

But, it is odd (assuming the HP dimensions are the same for both bullets) that the heavier bullet has a slighly higher LVSP, even with more ass end (higher SD) driving the expansion.
Must be a statistical quirk, from small sample, on the ragged edge of certifiably scientific at MIB. tu2

RIP

Yes, for sure, it should have been just the opposite, 530 at 1450, the 475 at `500. A larger sample might make a difference! Maybe. However, one thing is that "Sam Ring" around the 475 so that he can tell the difference in the 530 and the 475 if both are loaded and on the belt--that ring is right at the bottom of the cavity of the 475. I wonder if it is possible that ring cut around the bottom of the cavity could possibly make that 50 fps difference in LVSP? I don't know? Honestly, I am not likely to spend time investigating it further. Both have excellent and consistent LVSP at 1500 or so, and that is plenty good for the intended purpose of these bullets. I am very pleased with the cavity changes in both .500 and .510. This cavity has tweaked these to perfection.

Now, add that HP tip, and I bet LVSP goes down further. But again, the most important thing about the new HP tip is keeping that velocity up for that all important first round--and hitting harder, as we all know NonCons love the velocity.

I will be juicing these bullets up this week and once we reach max do some terminals with and without the tips at max velocities. And, do some terminals at 500 Nitro velocity as well.

Michael

Cross

Get some 416 R-Tips for that 325 NonCon--for that first round on buffalo. Knock the crap out of him!

HEH......

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Cross

Get some 416 R-Tips for that 325 NonCon--for that first round on buffalo. Knock the crap out of him!

HEH......

M

+1

An extra 75 fps impact velocity maybe and larger petal dispertion radius.
Larger "Cone of death" or "circle of death".

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

... However, one thing is that "Sam Ring" around the 475 so that he can tell the difference in the 530 and the 475 if both are loaded and on the belt--that ring is right at the bottom of the cavity of the 475. I wonder if it is possible that ring cut around the bottom of the cavity could possibly make that 50 fps difference in LVSP? ...

Michael

Of course! The "light-bullet-designator-ring" is the reason! LBDR!

Sample size good enough!
No statistical quirks!

That is a weakening cut on the nose, and helps the lighter bullets blow off the nose so that they have nearly the same LVSP as the heavier bullet at same velocity.
Ingenious!!!

And the Science at MIB is so excellent that it gives answers to questions not even asked yet.

Or did Dan already know the multiple utilities of the LBDR?
He is afterall on the Cutting Edge of new bullet technology.
Or did Sam think of that all by himself?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

... However, one thing is that "Sam Ring" around the 475 so that he can tell the difference in the 530 and the 475 if both are loaded and on the belt--that ring is right at the bottom of the cavity of the 475. I wonder if it is possible that ring cut around the bottom of the cavity could possibly make that 50 fps difference in LVSP? ...

Michael

Of course! The "light-bullet-designator-ring" is the reason! LBDR!

Sample size good enough!
No statistical quirks!

That is a weakening cut on the nose, and helps the lighter bullets blow off the nose so that they have nearly the same LVSP as the heavier bullet at same velocity.
Ingenious!!!

And the Science at MIB is so excellent that it gives answers to questions not even asked yet.

Or did Dan already know the multiple utilities of the LBDR?
He is afterall on the Cutting Edge of new bullet technology.
Or did Sam think of that all by himself?

Well, it would be nice to sit here and say, "Oh yes, we thought about all this stuff and Blah Blah Blah", But I think we just learned it this morning! Credit to Sam for wanting a way to feel the difference when in the cartridge belt. Credit to Dan, for putting it where it is at the bottom of the cavity. It's not much, very shallow, one would not think it would do anything, but preliminary study looks pretty good. I can think of no other logical reason that the 475 would shear 50 fps less than the 530--it should NOT be so! It was a surprise to me this morning and I did not expect it, and test velocity was very close on them. So, we continue to learn, investigate, and in the end triumph!

M

I have been out test shotting 500Acc-Rel with Ulrik. We used milkcartons filled with water and wet phonebooks as targets.
1.bullet Hornedy DGS 2 m straight
2.bullet Barnes 1,5 m straight 2200 feet/sec. (no rifling)
3. bullet CEB - BBW#13 1,5 m straiht 2000 feet/sec.
4. bullet CEB - BBW#13 1,5 m straight 2320 feet/sec. (no rifling)

I think the throat is to long and to big. The throat is .511 and I would like it to be .510(.5102 ) and .510 long.

Best regards
Hatting

quote:

Originally posted by hatting:


I have been out test shotting 500Acc-Rel with Ulrik. We used milkcartons filled with water and wet phonebooks as targets.
1.bullet Hornedy DGS 2 m straight
2.bullet Barnes 1,5 m straight 2200 feet/sec. (no rifling)
3. bullet CEB - BBW#13 1,5 m straiht 2000 feet/sec.
4. bullet CEB - BBW#13 1,5 m straight 2320 feet/sec. (no rifling)

I think the throat is to long and to big. The throat is .511 and I would like it to be .510(.5102 ) and .510 long.

Best regards
Hatting

Thank you for these tests. They are very interesting.

The flat nose design appears to work with or without rifling.

It appears that the brass bullets are shearing the bands, and even the 2000 fps #3 looks like partial shearing.

Could you confirm that bullet #2 and #4 from the left have bands that are approximately .500"? In other words, the bands are truly shearing.

One difference between the Hornady and the Barnes is material. The Hornady is presumably copper-guilding metal, while the Barnes solid is a more classic brass.

I would imagine that if a Barnes TSX were tested, it would show riflings, since it is pure copper. And a question will arise--up to what velocity would it hold its rifling?

If Jeffeoso's rifle is being tested this may help to confirm and further clarify the above.

And it the above is confirmed as band shearing, then those of us with 1.25" throats will need to choose only copper bullets, and probably keep velocities low,
OR
rebarrel with a throat more like the 49-10 (0.25" parallel freebore) with its excellent accuracy results.

In other words, if we want to shoot Raptors at full throttle (AND I DO), we will need to rebarrel.

(Rechambering and 1" set-back of the barrel may not be an option with the CZ profile that many of us have used. The shank is probably already at minimal length for .510" bore [2.5"?] and the integral second recoil lug needs a precise barrel seating that similtaneously headspaces correctly.)

Hatting thanks for the tests and posting as it does verify an issue with 1.25" throat of the 500 AccRel and brass bullets.

Michael has verified with his overbore 470 Capstick rifle that the BBW#13 bullets will maintain within-mass penetration stability at 48yds with no bullet engraving while delivering superb penetration.

I think now we need some long range shooting of brass and copper monometal bullets to validate whether the banding shearing of brass bullets at velocities of 2200fps and higher adversely impacts accuracy. If not then the world is well... If so, then it's either a rebarrel or CEB may need to release .510 caliber BBW#13s in copper construction.

quote:

or CEB may need to release .510 caliber BBW#13s in copper construction

Capo--

Copper models did not break off and present consistent, centrifugal circles of damage. So ESP Raptors need to be brass.

Hi 416Tanzan

yes bullet #2 + #4 is .500
the barnes wash .508 from the begining so we knew it would cause problems

i would also like to try/test some CEB-BBW#13 bullets which measure .502 between the driving bands and with the last driving band double wide
( .1143" )
I will get manson reamers to make a new reamer with the throat .510 in dia and .510 in lengh
have all ready ordert a new barrel alsow with 1/10 barrel twist just for testing

when i get my production license to produce bullets i will try and make some bullets how i like/thought they should look, i think you have to think as if it were leadbullets........just a thought

quote:

I will get manson reamers to make a new reamer with the throat .510 in dia and .510 in lengh

Thanks on the measurements. It is as expected.

But why one calibre .510" parallel freebore?

Weatherby has apparently cut back from its longest free bores. And RIP's 0.25" is shooting phenomenal groups.

We will probably need a moderately throated reamer in the US, too. Is there one available?

quote:

have all ready ordered a new barrel also with 1/10 barrel twist just for testing

If you do cut rifling you can also do a graduated twist at the beginning, accerating into the final twist.

McGowen Barrels was surprised with people ordering faster than 15" twist because the long range BMG rifles and bullets use 15". I went with 12" anyway in order to provide extra margin for the Raptors. Some folk on this thread have been using 9" and 10" twists in 50 calibre, and it would be good to hear from them. I believe that RIP's great groups with .500" Raptor were with 12" twists.

Its proven many times that a 1-10" twist work very well in a 500. With the longest bullets the 1-10" will outperform the 1-12" regarding stability/penetration at close range..
I did not go for a new cut rifle Border Barrel - waiting time too long... I have chosen to order a Lothar Walter barrel insted as they deliver them with 1-10" twist and they are a lot faster (and cheaper..)

Further LBDR investigation just might be the ticket for handgun non-coms, with LVS necessary down to 800 fps or so.

300 gr .452 and 275 gr .430 bullets would be a great start!

quote:

Originally posted by whelenite:
Further LBDR investigation just might be the ticket for handgun non-coms, with LVS necessary down to 800 fps or so.

300 gr .452 and 275 gr .430 bullets would be a great start!

That LBDR has been stored away in the memory banks for many possible future uses--rest assured!


Some other really good news on LVSP, Dan is working with the small bore stuff, shooting LVSP at actual range. There is a 85 gr 6.8 Raptor that has become very popular with that semi auto crowd. LVSP at range is 1329 fps so far! This tells me that most all the small bores under 9.3 caliber are going to shear proper down in the 1400-1500 fps range, and less--at long range. I cannot get that here because of stability at 50 by just down loading. Not in the small bores.

Michael

What do you think about this...with the advent of the the hollow point ogive talon tip I was thinking the 12 gauge Raptor could work. Thinking 750 grains weight and larger hole ratio and or maybe a five sides pentagon hole to sheer down to 1,000 fps for under 100 yard shooting. The solid end could be stable in a smooth bore being weight forward with the the hollow base. The hollow point or tipped hollow point Would be for rifled barrels. What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
What do you think about this...with the advent of the the hollow point ogive talon tip I was thinking the 12 gauge Raptor could work. Thinking 750 grains weight and larger hole ratio and or maybe a five sides pentagon hole to sheer down to 1,000 fps for under 100 yard shooting. The solid end could be stable in a smooth bore being weight forward with the the hollow base. The hollow point or tipped hollow point Would be for rifled barrels. What do you think?

I don't think much about shotguns! Nor muzzle loaders, nor bows/arrows. Can't find much of a use for them personally. Although I freely admit that if I have to go after one of those belly crawling bastards I'd just as soon have a big shotgun full of shot and blow them all to hell, take no prisoners. Other than that, I can find no use for them. That's what I think!

Busy weekend coming up here on the compound! Have Alaskan-Ox pitching up here Thursday for a few days of shooting, testing, terminals, and whatever else we can find to do. On Friday another AR member coming in for a visit, Brent Ebeling, we are looking forward to both AR guys coming in doing some shooting and visiting! I have a few things planned for the guys while they are here, and of course there is always work to be done, so I don't think we will come up short on things to do, not if it involves some sort of shooting! Should be fun, we will keep you posted.

CEB is off to Africa next week as well! They will be hunting with Andrew500! Bullets that are in the spotlight are the 295 BBW#13 NonCon in 458 B&M at 2600 fps or so. The other is the .308 caliber 130 ESP Raptor. We should get some really good reports on performance from these. Andrew500 is now in the process of getting his rifles in a couple of weeks, 500 MDM and 9.3 B&M. He has loads for each, and maybe we will get some reports on some of those in the near future as well.

Looks to be a busy season hunting, and we should get lot's of reports in the coming months.

Michael