NEWS FLASH!! Just heard from Michael and he is killing everything over there. He said the BBW#13s both non cons and solids are doing just what we thought they would do. He is very impressed with how they are performing and I can't type all the details. Seven buffalo down, one elephant one hippo and many others. I'll let Michael fill you guys in but I have to tell this one. He shot a buffalo facing in the head and the BBW#13 soild was sticking out the rear end dead straight. 7 feet of animal penetration.

Sam

Holy Cow
That is friggen outstanding

WOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Drinks all around at the Longbranch.




SSR

Wow!!!
Great news!
I hope he is taking lots of pics
His hunting report will take forever to make.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
NEWS FLASH!! Just heard from Michael and he is killing everything over there. He said the BBW#13s both non cons and solids are doing just what we thought they would do. He is very impressed with how they are performing and I can't type all the details. Seven buffalo down, one elephant one hippo and many others. I'll let Michael fill you guys in but I have to tell this one. He shot a buffalo facing in the head and the BBW#13 soild was sticking out the rear end dead straight. 7 feet of animal penetration.

Sam

Sam,
That’s awesome news! Knowing Michael we’ll have many pages of reporting with photographs documenting everything. Geez…can hardly wait.

Paul,
I’ll have to find a Shooting Times so I can read the article; thanks for posting the heads up.

Good morning from my side of the pond in South Africa. We made it back to Pretoria after having some great adventures in Zimbabwe and here in South Africa. I have much to report, lot's of photos, that I will try and work on over the next couple of weeks before leaving for home. I have several hundred photos to process and review, plus just trying to put it all together. I can report that all the bullets tested were a HUGE success--there were no failures of any sort. In fact, even with one very bad shot on buffalo, the bullet did enough of a job to stop the buffalo short where a finishing shot took care of my mistake! It was a .500 460 BBW#13 NonCon that did the trick. I shot 7 buffalo, 2 bulls and 5 cows, elephant, hippo, croc, and a waterbuck using 500 MDM 460 BBW#13 HPs, 500 gr BBW#13 Solids, 450 North Fork Cup points, and a 425 BBW#13 HP Lion Bullet--all did an extreme job, extreme penetration, extreme damage to internal tissues, blades from the NonCons do in fact rip and tear at vital buffalo tissue inside the chest cavity, solids hit with great authority and deep straight penetration. In the 458 B&M I mainly used the 450 BBW#13 Solid and 420 NonCon--extreme performance in both and deep penetration. The 450 Solid very capable passing thru the heart of hippo and exiting other side, the 420 NonCon can enter frontal chest of buffalo, blow a 2 inch diameter hole in the heart, rip and tear lung tissues and other vitals, and pass completely thru the stomach and exit, found on other side of stomach tissue, that's a lot of penetration. One North Fork Cup Point dropped one cow buffalo on the spot never to get up again. ALso, one 460 .500 NonCon did the same thing. Other than one poor shot buffalo, none went further than 20 yards before piling up stone cold, most were between 10 yds and 15 yds and down. Incredible performance. The one lion bullet I used on a waterbuck dropped to the shot, bullet entered, went all to hell, destroyed everything inside, including ripping off a section of lung the size of my hand completely, with two large portions of bullet exiting the front of the chest cavity 4 inches apart--incredible destruction of tissue. Something I am going to investigate in the future more with other calibers. Everyone who saw the performance was very very impressed, and to a man I kept hearing this over and over "I have never seen such destruction of vitals and bullet performance", this includes several very experienced individuals, some that were very skeptical to begin with, become quick believers. Shot one 12 ft croc with the 458 B&M and a 420 NonCon, damned near blew his entire head off! I don't know how my taxidermist is going to sort that out? A few bullets were recovered from frontal shots, and I have photos of vital organ tissue for you to see yourself, but the photos are not as good as actual looking at the tissue damage.

I am here to tell you that Dangerous Game hunting is in fact dangerous at times, something I had nearly forgotten, or had become over confident. I had an elephant that did his best to eat me, and damned near did, had it not been for a 500 gr .500 caliber BBW#13 Solid, he surely would have. Had a dead buffalo try to bite me as well.

Like I said we just got back to Pretoria yesterday, and got access to computer last night only. I am freezing to death here in Pretoria at night, about 35 degrees at night, warm days. Somewhere along the line I pinched a nerve in my back and it's doing everything it can to pull the muscles out of my left leg, very painful from about 3am until, and it's been on for about 18 days now!!!! Getting really tired of that, so trying to see some sort of witch doctor soon as possible. Even good drugs is not doing much!

Busy as hell, but will try and get some things to you over the next few days, leaving Thursday morning for the Eastern Cape, long 9 hr drive and will be there until something like the 5th or so, not sure of having computer access while there? Leaving and coming home on the 10th arriving on the 11th. Travel has been very good the entire trip, rode Delta over and have to report it was the best ride I ever crossed over on to J'burg! ZERO Issues with travel, equipment, SAPS, permits, nothing and no issues with ammo either in RSA or Zimbabwe, extremely smooth sailing. Now if the ride home is just as easy! Been one of the better trips I have taken, just no hassles anywhere with nothing. I am impressed, maybe someone has taken note that hunters and shooters are an important component of their income when traveling. I could not ask for better.

Oh how about the article in ST? Someone give me a summary? Sam, flattered by the "almost B&Ms" as you already know! And greetings to all my buddies here, have been missing you guys and look forward to getting back to you! You guys have been keeping it going I see!

OK, off to processing some photos and try to put some things together for you.

Michael

Hey Michael,

Good to hear from you buddy! Great hunting and results. Hope you can find someone to take care of the pinched nerve...been there done that and it is absolutely miserable while it's going on.

Take care, have a wonderful visit with the family.

Michael,

We had to have something to talk about while you were off having fun.

OK now you have our interest up we need photos and more details!! I know being in Africa is a good reson not to have phones and computers so have fun. Go catch a Tiger fish or something.

Sam

In a word:

AWESOME

Very happy to hear all is going well. Looking forward to details especially on man eating elephant and dead buffalo.

Nice article in ST but Layne forgot the "&" between the "B" and "M" so to those of us in the medical world he was talking about 50 Bowel Movements.

Sorry to hear of the pinched nerve - been there, done that and I wish I had some good advice. Witch doctors probably have better treatment than we do.

Stay safe, have fun and be well,

Paul

OUT Friggin STANDING,
I'm sure there is a good back cracker out there some where.
I was so worried that the blades would not reach the vitals. Glad to here that is not an issue.
Your living the dream and changing the future of big game hunting.

Take care,
John

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:

I was so worried that the blades would not reach the vitals. Glad to here that is not an issue.

That had been the question with the big black ones. Just what would the petals do with something really tough? The reports will be helpful and savored.

It's good to be back in the world and back to you guys as well! Although I could stay in the bush, I was getting a bit cold at night, in fact my thinned blood was freezing out there! HEH HEH......

Yep, the blades or petals were a question that we needed to answer and one of the important things in all the test work. Answer is; Yes, the blades penetrate into the chest cavity of the buffalo, and yes they do tremendous amounts of damage and trauma to target. Blades are hard to find in the lab work, much less in the mess in the chest cavity of a buffalo. We did find some however, and many would come out in all the blood and gore during the processing. I have several that we found.

The buffalo you see above was buff #1. First morning out, we picked him out of a herd. Caught him standing behind some brush at 50-60 yds. I came straight up the front left leg, but lots of brush in the way, so I moved slightly back to what I thought was just behind the left shoulder! So I dropped the hammer, using the 500 MDM, 460 BBW#13 NonCon at 2450 fps. Buffalo bucked up, I thought the shot was dandy, but getting down to following the blood it was not bright red, but a dull red, not good. Sure enough it was a gut shot! Oh Crap, here we go! So we started following, and much to our surprise about 100-125 yds there he stood rear to, behind some brush. No shot available so from about 15-20 yards I made my way around hoping to get a better shot from the side or front, if he did not take off. Well sure enough he bolted, but I managed to get a round in the front end this time and he went 20-25 yards piled up stone cold dead.

First shot had been straight through the stomach, and exited the other side. Now that is quite a feat driving straight through the stomach contents of a buffalo. We all decided that the bullet had done a great job, and had make the buff sick enough to hold up at a fairly short followup. The second bullet had entered and passed through both lungs and across the top of the heart to do a lot of tissue damage, depositing blades along the way, and exited the far right shoulder. I think it was 450NE that stated the NonCons may do enough damage even on a bad shot, that it might assist one in following up. ON this buffalo it was true, can't speak for others, but this one did not go far with a really lousy shot on my part. Now my excuse was that I did not have my glasses on, I could not see what I thought I was seeing especially through brush! Well, that's my story anyway and I am going to stick to it! HEH HEH HEH........

CCMDOC---Yes, well aware of what BM means in your business! LOL....... I heard from Layne just this morning, he dropped me an email telling me the article was out! He did another one for Rifle Shooter Magazine as well, but he does not know when it is coming out, it was supposed to be out by now.

Sam, leaving this coming Thursday for the Eastern Cape to visit with Mommas Pa---I will let the girls fish, I think Pa has arranged for me to shoot something down there, not sure what. I have almost no 500 MDM ammo left now, what I did not shoot I left with Andrew as he has ordered a new Win M70 500 MDM for himself, along with a 9.3 B&M as well. I suppose he liked the performance of the 500 MDM and the new BBW#13s, solids and noncons! SO soon as I get home I have to go to work getting his rifles built for him. So I am driving down with the 458 B&M.

Phats, Tanz and Jim

Yep, going to try and find a witch doctor cracker somewhere the next day or so, this is getting very old now, 20 some odd days is enough!


I am working on things and other photos, but it is going slow not being on my regular computer. I am on my laptop, but getting online has been an issue, and also lot's of photos to process.

Michael

Congratulations,Michael!

Thanks very much for sharing this information!
It's always good to read your posts! Keep up the
good work and heal fast!

Michael you have to be the first man to post about your hunt from Africa! Great buff! Looking forward to the rest of the stories!

Sam

YE HAAA
I was hoping the little 458 B&M would get some play.
This is great stuff, it really is.

Cheers, John

Doc M,

Wonderful to hear from you again. As usual, been lurking around, watching the mice play while the cat is away. Aah the stories I could tell you

Seriously, great news about your field tests. This just validates the work done by you and your friends here.

Got overly ambitious the other day and have a pinched nerve in my neck now - I can guess how you feel.

Have fun, rather keep on having fun

Regards,

Saeed

Doc M,
Congratulations!

"Phatman" John wrote what I was thinking:

"You're living the dream and changing the future of big game hunting."

Sort of like watching Star Trek for Voor Trekkers.

I have been on a little trek myself.
A relative fell and fractured a noggin in the North Carolina "mountains" vacation cabin, needed assistance, so wife and I drove to NC then on to Florida to get them situated.

Accidents happen!
Whether from unseen brush in the way of bullets or from lifting buffalo carcasses while searching for bullet fragments.
Hope your pain is easing.

Excellent buffalo!
I am sold on brass NonCons, especially anything of .395 caliber or greater.


I usually say "break a leg" when hailing travelers, but no need for that this trip!
Have a safe trip home.

Rip

PS: My copy of Shooting Times is replete with proper designation: ".50 B&M Alaskan" all over the place,
as well as references to your load data and pressure testing.
I did not see a single ".50 bowel movement"reference when I read it.
Will have to go back and look for a "blooper" if it is there.

Good morning my side! I don't want the next report to sound too much like a Hunting Report, or such, but the need to understand all the circumstances involved is required to understand the performance of the bullet used I think. So this is the elephant report.

I guess now I have to admit, it is called Dangerous Game hunting for a reason. Do it enough and it can become a bit hazardous. I had a real issue with an elephant in Zimbabwe. It started out with 3 elephants that the village folks were complaining about this lot coming into the village at night. So It did not take much to talk me into taking a look at shooting one of them! After much talk, negotiation, and haggling, it took about 3 seconds for me to agree to undertake the task of busting one that afternoon, I think it was the 8th or 9th june, maybe the 10th, I don't remember. Anyway we did catch these 3 just outside the village milling about in some very very thick brush. To start things of Andrew and I crawled thru some thick stuff and was 10 yds away when we picked the biggest of the 3 trouble makers, still only a medium bull at best but who's counting. Starting out on my knees under the brush I have a shot at side brain, just getting ready to drop the hammer when his head turned and I could not see the shot anymore. So I shifted to what I judged to be the heart and fired. I was using the 500 MDM and the 500 CEB BBW#13 Solid at 2380 fps, he stumbled, regained his footing, I slammed another into his side, too far back, then he turned and I hit him again too far back on the other side. I thought I had hit heart, but he was at an angle I could not see thru the brush and I caught him in the lungs only. We follow the blood for about a hundred yards through the alleys in the thick brush and catch up with him standing facing us, about 10-12 yds on the other side of some really thick stuff. There was no shot to be had thru this stuff, so I am down crawling hands and knees to try and get a finishing shot up under the brush, I had crawled 1 yd when here he come full tilt. I slammed a BBW#13 into gray mass hitting once again too far to the rear of vitals, my second shot went off as I lost my balance and was falling backwards, that shot may have went to the moon for all I know, now I am on my back, and angled downwards against brush behind me, laying down on the job you might say, and it's looking like I am getting ready to become elephant mash quickly, I can't get the rifle to my shoulder so I hold it out in front of me and fire my last shot into his chest, holding the rifle just pointing at his chest in front of me the 500 BBW#13 slams into his heart from the bottom traversing upwards, makes a big hole in the heart, and he turns around and goes down. His last footstep was three yards from where I was laying under him. Had he dropped, he would have dropped on me. Had he made it through the thick brush and one of the PHs had brained him, he would have for sure dropped on me. Just lucky he turned around before going down. THere was no more time left to load more rounds, it was #3 or forget it. All chest cavity shots the solids passed completely through the elephant--excellent penetration.

The 500 gr BBW#13 solid hit the elephant hard, and did some serious damage to the heart, and I was very lucky.







This is a photo of what I had to shoot through to get to the elephant the other side. During the entire charge no one, including me could even see the elephants head, much less get a shot in anywhere. This was some thick stuff. In a way the thick brush slowed him down some, and was good for me, but then on the other hand had it not been so thick, I would not have been on hands and knees to begin with, so........ ?????




Michael

quote:

His last footstep was three yards from where I was laying under him. Had he dropped, he would have dropped on me. Had he made it through the thick brush and one of the PHs had brained him, he would have for sure dropped on me. Just lucky he turned around before going down. THere was no more time left to load more rounds, it was #3 or forget it. All chest cavity shots the solids passed completely through the elephant--excellent penetration.

Close call glad you can tell your tale untouched.

Michael - impressive story.. Wow. That is ele hunting my friend.. I have had a few serious encounters in thick bush as well, but not a close call like yours..
And regarding bullet performance what can I say.. - it was as we expected - excellent.
Glad to hear that you r all right - now you take care for the remaining part of your hunt right

Also impressive to see you posting from Africa.. Only Saeed has done that as far as I know..

Ulrik

Thats why elephant hunting is so much fun! Great story and nice looking tusks. Looks like a big hole for a solid!

Sam

Michael,
Have really enjoyed the information on your bullets and now on your safari. Hope to see you in Dallas again.
Max

Gulp



thats not a pinched nerve in your back, its your innards untying the knot they are in after thatone.

You do keep life exciting-happy things worked out well, you sure froved research range time pays!

SSR

I heard that!!!!
No wounder His back is FUBAR
Hey, be careful. Your dealing with old fragile parts over there.

Cheers, John

Good Grief!!!

Great story and I hope it finds its way into the book you need to write.

You and Sam could alternate with hunting stories as the intro to each chapter.

Glad you're OK.

Glad you're still with us!
Your number simply was not up!
I'm going to look for more details
on this rifle that you used. Barrel
length, weight, etc.

MM,
glad you are alive.. that's not back trouble, sir.. that's the diamond that formed in your rectum during the elephant encounter!

quote:

thats not a pinched nerve in your back, its your innards untying the knot they are in after that one.

You do keep life exciting-happy things worked out well, you sure proved research range time pays

+1 Now we know how/why you have that pinched nerve...or whatever else might be pinched or knotted up!

Michael, WOW! What an adrenaline pumping event. I got an elevated heartbeat just reading that story. Glad you are ok!
Life is going to seem boring compared to this trip lol. Congrats man! Keep up the documentation

Frederik

THanks, I am glad my tail was untouched as well! HEH........

Buffalo and Sam

HEH HEH,,,, You won't believe my thoughts at that very moment, funny, As that 3rd round fired I was thinking "I'll be damned, I am going to sure be mashed by this bastard, and everyone will be reading about this stupid shit and going over all the crap that went wrong!" HEH HEH.... I swear that is what ran thru my mind! LOL.... I was the sacrifice, Momma and Mercedes and the trackers took off like rabbits, as they had been directed to do if ever a real problem!

Yes, the 500 gr .500 caliber BBW#13 did the job, and yes again, that was an impressive hole, and the hole I am showing was the entrance, not exit. The 67% meplat busted hell out of it, providing lots of shock and awe! It turned him, no doubt. Anyway, it's all I had, there was no other choices to make, that or get eaten by the elephant!


Max

Oh No Worries, we all enjoyed DSC so much that I will not miss another one! You can count on us being there, and in addition I am dragging Sam with me, and my young PH buddy Andrew also is coming, so I will have the entire entourage tagging along--we will have a blast!


Cross, Phats and Doc

Yep fragile old, deaf and looks like blind now! HEH...... I did have real issues with the eyes no crap. I have never worn glasses on a daily basis. Reading glasses yes, all the time, but not normal glasses. I just got a new pair a few weeks before leaving, but for some reason I had never used them during shooting--I should have. To boot, the damned things have bifocals--now I can't see my feet when I walk? A good pair of hunting glasses do not need bifocals! SO I was on a learning mission in that aspect as well! I did start wearing my glasses while shooting, and it was fine, except one day when in South Africa on a buffalo shoot that we drove an hour to get to, I forgot them!

Ya, got real lucky on this one. After the affair I was on the scene trying to "CSI" the bullet wounds, everyone was asking if I was OK? Well Hell yes I am fine, I am walking around eh? I suppose everyone was checking on every body heh,,

Jack

I had one of my 500 MDM Win M70, .500 caliber, 21 inch barrel, 8.5 lbs without scope. Soon as I get home I am wacking these long barrels down to 19.5 inches in the 500s! Too damned long!

Jeffe and Jim

Yeah man, thanks, no sweat and no worries, and just damned lucky is all! I do have to say that in all these years I had become somewhat complacent, but on occasion if you do it enough sometimes these things happen, just part of it.


Found myself a damn good "QuakerPractor" today! Formally known as Witch Doctor! An excellent young chap, he had me cussing, screaming, and carrying on for about 30 minutes, but I believe he is working in the right direction for sure. Go back and see him again Wed morning, scream and cuss some more, I am good at that, professional you might say!

Trying to get another report on the buffalo that wanted to eat me too! Working on it!


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael, WOW! What an adrenaline pumping event. I got an elevated heartbeat just reading that story. Glad you are ok!
Life is going to seem boring compared to this trip lol. Congrats man! Keep up the documentation

Hey Boomy!

Yeah man, seems everything wanted to bite me and eat me this trip! HEH,,,,,,, Damn, I did not know buffalo and elephant were maneaters too? I thought that was left for lions and such! LOL.......

How about a buffalo report with the 458 B&M??????

OK, this was the first cow buffalo I dropped the hammer on in Zimbabwe. Not too far, 35-40 yds or so. Using one of my favorite 458 B&Ms Win M70 of Course, 420 gr CEB BBW#13 NonCon HP at 2250 fps. Now everyone knows you don't hunt buff with a 420 gr low SD bullet! It's just not done. Can't possibly have enough penetration eh? OK..........

Buffalo was facing me, slightly quartered to. I dropped the hammer and the bullet went thru the heart, this buffalo bucked up on her hind legs like a rearing horse, turned ran 20 yds and piled up, end of story. No other shot presented so none was taken. By the time we got to it, it was done.



Back at the processing shed we removed the insides, petals came out with the blood and gore within, and then the lungs and heart were removed. The 420 BBW#13 NonCon had passed through the heart, no doubt about it, massive destruction. It appears to me that the petals remained close to center of the wound cavity as they all passed through the heart together, I really can't explain this much destruction, other than the blades giving a helping hand in this.



We continued to dig for the bullet. What we found was that the bullet had entered the stomach, and we found it in that second stomach thing that the ruffage passes through before going into the intestines. This is what the bullet traversed before getting to that secondary stomach thing!



By the way, I have a few of the noncons from both the 500 and 458. I don't have a good way to document and photo for you, but will do so when I get home. If you want to see what one looks like after passing through animal tissue, just simply go back on this thread and find one that has been tested, they look EXACTLY the same, these just have blood and tissue on them. Blades also look the same. Something else, very important to the test work done, is correlation of penetration data. Now I don't have a measuring stick or tape with me, something I neglected. But doing some decent measuring, unofficial of course, the NonCons tend to penetrate like the conventional expanding bullets do, from 80% to 100% more penetration than found in the lab work. This was something I was not so sure of with the NonCons, but so far on everything it is falling into that 80%-100% category.

Past my bedtime, catch you guys tomorrow.

Michael

come on, MM,, you KNOW your testing media can't relate to ANYTHING in the field.. all dem der exspurts toll us'in dat! no way that media testing means ANYTHING in dah real world...

Lots of great info Michael!
Good to see the petals doing some damage too. Seems this is a multi projectile solid.
Having seen the testing done with the 500 Cyrus with similar bullets in ballistic gelatin it does not surprise me the secondary damage from the petals. The pair of these non conventional bullets is changing things around the world of much convention.

Are you going to do some post mortem shots for testing damage and penetration or is that overkill?

Michael,

Great stuff keep it coming!!
I'm dying to see the bullet sticking out the rear end of that buff.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Lots of great info Michael!
Good to see the petals doing some damage too. Seems this is a multi projectile solid.
Having seen the testing done with the 500 Cyrus with similar bullets in ballistic gelatin it does not surprise me the secondary damage from the petals. The pair of these non conventional bullets is changing things around the world of much convention.

Do the petals corkscrew through the target around the direction set by the body of the NonCon or do they go straight after separating from the body? There is a radial direction at separation, I am wondering about the axial direction.

Real World Results. There are just NO replacements for RWR!

http://lehighbullets.com/infor...on/technicaldata.htm

This gives an idea of the petal action

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Lots of great info Michael!
Good to see the petals doing some damage too. Seems this is a multi projectile solid.
Having seen the testing done with the 500 Cyrus with similar bullets in ballistic gelatin it does not surprise me the secondary damage from the petals. The pair of these non conventional bullets is changing things around the world of much convention.

Do the petals corkscrew through the target around the direction set by the body of the NonCon or do they go straight after separating from the body? There is a radial direction at separation, I am wondering about the axial direction.