quote:

We are working on several designs based on the entire North Fork Line! While exact weights are not 100% they will be close, a 450 gr FPS and CPS for the 500 MDM and 50 B&M, a 375 FPS and CPS for the 50 B&M Super Short and 50 B&M AK. Now these are in very early development, but we are looking at a 450-500 gr Bonded Core for the 500 MDM and 50 B&M, a 450 gr for the 50 B&M AK, and a 350 gr for the 50 Super Short.

Hopefully the bonded core will be based upon their new design/technology...that I believe they were developing to make the bonded core bullets useable in DRs…basically make them bore-riders.

By the way I did round those meplat edges after taking photos. You wanted them rounded! Michael will have plenty to test next week.

Sam

I am happy I got that extra 800 lbs of news print the other week. I have more tests lined up right now than I can keep up with. Not mentioned but Sam also made some excellent heavy .500s, 552 grs, 510 grs, 472 grs all with 67% meplat as I measure. Very excellent bullets.

Once the test is done with the JDJ profiles, the brass cup points, the hydros, and others I have I think we will have explored very well the world of solids. Profiles I like, the North Fork profile, the barnes profile, the JDJ profile, S&H Profile-equal and not in order, all good. Meplat size I like, 65%-70%. Velocity, 2000 +. Construction, brass or hard copper only please, none else need apply. SD, not sure it counts for much! Penetration depth, depends on critter and mission mostly, but anything over 40 is acceptable, getting over 50 is excellent, 60+ is exceptional! But, depends on the mission at hand greatly, one might wish to limit penetration on buffalo, this is now easy to accomplish, either with cup point or larger meplat--that's the fact.

OK, starting to blabber!

M

The advent of North Fork coming up with these bullets thanks to Michael open up the validity of the .500" .498" wildcats like the 490 Tornado, 499 HE, Capowards 500 on the Ruger case and 490 AccRel not to mention the future 500 Kill All.
Now larger cases have merrit too like the .500" Gibs, the .500" Wby with and without the belt and .500"-416 Rigby based carts.

Boomy

You are 1000% correct and in line with my thinking too. Let me give you the lay of the land with .500 caliber if I may!

First off Michael is now in support of 4 manufacturers of PROPER .500 caliber bullets. All different and all superb products for ALL of us with .500 caliber rifles.

We have our very own Agent J, S&H Precision bullets. J can do his nose profile and band profile in .500 caliber easy, and I am sure support all sorts of Non Cons in .500 too.

Next we have the SSK bullets done by Lehigh. These are the bullets that JD and I worked on and went through several generations to get to the point we are with both solids and non cons in copper or brass. Superb once again.

Thanks to Corbin, he dug up Cutting Edge. I have been working with them closely the last few weeks with their seal tite band and multi band bullets on some of the bullets and designs I already have. I like the multi band concept, and it appears they are doing a wonderful job on this. I will develop and help develop an entire line of these non con HPs and of course the mighty SOLIDs in several weight categories from 400 grs to 550 grs. Same with the HPs in brass and copper. I will have these bullets and keep them in stock on hand for all .500 shooters. Currently I have a run of the 510 gr solids coming, along with 100 400 gr weights for testing in the Super Short and the 50 B&M AK.

And of course the coveted North Fork Bullets!!! Extremely excited about adding them to our .500's, and not only that, 2 wonderful solids, 2 incredible Cup Points, and last but not least a Bonded Premium to boot! In a couple weeks I suspect I may have in hand some prototypes of the solids and cup points before going into production, so these are coming fast too! We have to had dies and such made for the Bonded Premium, so that is not going to be as quick, but it's not going to take that long I think. In my talks with North Fork, which includes me typing 1000s of words back and to, along with telephone conversations over the last few weeks, it is my understanding at this time once we have the form die in place it will last a lifetime of bullets to begin with, and on top of that nearly any weight bullet can be done if desired. I want a 450 gr bullet suitable for the 50 B&M AK which is the only cartridge of mine that comes up a little short because of the lever guns. This same die will make a 500 easy, or even a 350 easy if wanted or needed. Once we get into it, I may have some of these run, 500s, 450s, whatever. Nose profile cannot be changed, weight can. Now we are going to be working very hard on nose profile, just enough to work in the Marlins, that is the guideline, more folks will convert marlins to 50 B&M AK than M71s because of price. So this bullet has priority to work in a marlin. My preference is the M71 and it is much easier to get a longer cartridge in than the marlin. Now, depending on the nose this bullet may very well work in M70s without issue. If not, I have a die that that I can reform the nose so that it works in the bolt guns, any bolt gun too. But I would rather not have to do that, but if so, it's really easy and not a big deal, thanks to my Genius buddy Sam!

I will also probably have North Forks on hand for you guys too. North Fork has told me that these will be available direct from them also. Which is great.

So yes, .500 is alive and well, and PROVEN IN THE FIELD bullets will be readily available for all with .500s. Not only that, be the capabilities are there for special runs of bullets too! No stone is left unturned and we are off and running!

Exciting times these are!

Michael

quote:

So yes, .500 is alive and well, and PROVEN IN THE FIELD bullets will be readily available for all with .500s. Not only that, be the capabilities are there for special runs of bullets too! No stone is left unturned and we are off and running!

Absolutely. The .500 was proven by Michael458 using SST/Lehigh bullets before Cutting Edge, North Fork, or S&H Precision involvement...welcome they are as they offer additional variety to the mix.

Now I'll have to get some additional bullets loaded up in dummy cartridges next month to assure that everything available in .500 works without issue in my 50 MDM M98 based rifle...completion date of December 2010!

Jim

As soon as the Cutting Edge bullets get in and the North Forks get in I will send some samples to both you and RIP for you guys to check out. I don't think there will be any problems with either of your cartridges.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jim

As soon as the Cutting Edge bullets get in and the North Forks get in I will send some samples to both you and RIP for you guys to check out. I don't think there will be any problems with either of your cartridges.

M

Michael,

I appreciate it. Starting to get fidgety…reloading dies should be here in a couple of weeks shortly followed by the barrel. Stock should be arriving in a couple of weeks also. As soon as the dummies are ginned up and the barrel arrives all is off to Steve for the metal work!

Jim

Dan is doing the bullets I think next week, so should have them in hand by the end of the week I think? I made a couple of minor changes setting the seal tite band back .008 to allow just a tiny bit less seating depth, mostly for aesthetics but allows one to seat it out just a tiny bit more. Also, again mostly for aesthetics a sharp shoulder instead of a taper to the bore rider part. Nothing big. Meplat remains at 68% I believe, no changes needed there!

I can also send some 550s if you wanted. I will have Dan run a few 550s later, but honestly they are not needed, and gain little if anything at all over the 510. I don't intend to use the 550s at all, I may even reconsider for elephant, they are just not that much more than the 510s. I think maybe if the twist rate was 1:10 they might do a bit better, but I think they are starting to loose stability at 63-64 inches. If I have Dan do any I am going to a 70% meplat on the Cutting Edge 550s. This might help stabilize them I think, the SSK is 65% currently. But then again, the 510 does all that is needed and then about double that.

Prototype North Forks won't be far behind that.

I have not had as much time to put into what sort of Non Cons we need, but welcome for any suggestions. I am doing a little re-design of the 330 416s and 425 458s in brass. Nose is a little long on both of those for the 416-458 B&M, going to shorten that nose a bit. Plan on keeping new bullets in stock for all you guys so give some input if you want something. Don't hurt my feelings to have a shelf full of bullets, only problem is if anyone wants some better get them before I start shooting them! HEH.

Just let me know what you need out there and I will get it moving with the CE bullets.

Michael

Michael,

I have plenty of the SST/Lehigh 510gr FN and 470fr HP bullets to load up for dummies to assure flawless cycling from both rails and the ramp with a full magazine; we’d already planned them to be the mainstays of the 50 MDM…but this was before the availability of the Cutting Edge and North Fork bullets in .500” caliber. Also no need for the 550gr SST/Lehigh FN bullets; I already have a couple of them but it and the 510s have the same upper groove to meplat measurement there’s no need to load dummies for that bullet as one is basically the other except for weight.

I’ll likely need 3 each of the CE and NF bullets for dummies as that’ll be sufficient to test feeding on both rails from the magazine and the ramp.

Hum…new Non-Cons.
Ok, I really liked the looks of the brass 330gr .416 SST/Lehigh HP bullet:

And I still like it after having shot it in June.

That said, I proffer the following bullet modifications: 1) Add one additional band higher up on the shank, spaced at current spacing, to give an additional bullet seating depth option, 2) Add a semi-spitzer shaped polymer tip insert, and 3) Shorten the bullet by removing 0.08” to 0.10” from the base. I have no druthers regarding manufacturing from brass or copper. Maybe test both and select the composition that gives best close range and long range performance.

And then…replicate that sucker as a 450gr to 470gr .500” caliber bullet to give a long range Non-Con bullet option in that caliber.

Edit Added: Ok now that I’ve really re-looked at the bullet photograph and re-read your length issues here’s the modifications: 1) leave the banding alone, 2) leave the nose radius alone, 3) leave the meplat and HP diameter alone, 4) take 0.10” to 0.125” out of the bullet shank between the upper band and the commencement of the nose radius, 5) add the polymer semi-spitzer tip, and 6) construct from copper to return some bullet weight. That should take care of the bullet length for the B&Ms. Replicate in .500” caliber and I’ll still have a long range expanding Non-Con.

Jim

First the bullet you have in the Lehigh photo is not the bullet I have. The nose is different and longer! While quality is excellent, performance is the same, with the nose design as it is right now it's just a tiny bit longer, have to seat a little deeper for the WSM action. I tested the bullet in the photos, I got a different nose design for some reason. This is one of the tiny issues I have with Lehigh. Consistency of little things like that. I won't have that issue once I get Cutting Edge up and running, I have better contact with Dan and better communications that are fantastic.

Big News! Man, NORTH FORK don't play! I received 3-D's today on the new .500 solids and cup points. The only problem is that I am not in the office, and I run macs, and have to get in the office to get these on a windows machine. North Fork is all over these designs and honestly I think as excited about the new developments as I am. It seems we are moving dead in the right direction with weights, designs, and everything for these two weights to work perfectly in all the .500 B&Ms, and the 500 MDM. WIth this being the case, 50 MDM and RIPS new Lapua 500 are going to be in good hands too. Also North Fork is already stepping up the 450 Bonded core, and again, their enthusiasm is as great as mine! We have a real winner here, a great move for the .500s.

Michael

Great!
.500/450-grain North Forks of any type will be the hounddog's howl!

Deserves a Winchester M-70 for that 490/.338 Lapua Mag.

I have been foolin' with Lapua-cats for a decade.
This is my "ultimate."

RIP

Will the .490/338 Lapua work on that RUM M70???? I have to be very honest with you, I would love to see it on a M70 action. I have 3 of those rifles in my hands right now that are not spoken for. Extremely reduced price just to give incentive?

I tell you it has been and is a great pleasure working with North Fork on this. We are on the same page, North Fork is excited, I am excited, it is an incredible adventure! These solids, cup points and the bonded core bullet are going to be extreme hammers. Been getting some excellent feedback from North Fork about the cartridges too, so that is very encouraging too.

I think you will be in excellent shape for .500 bullets with the North Forks and the others we are working on! All of us will be with the .500s. I hope to be busting buffalo with the North Forks next season. No, I don't hope to, I will be! If I can't get enough cape on quota to make it worth the effort, then I will go to Australia and get a quota of 50 buffalo and go to work! Hot damn, 50 buffalo in a week! That's my kind of work! Gotta see if I can get some buff on quota in Mozambique first however. If I can get 5-10 cape on quota that's what I will do, of course some will be cows and that is fine, cows shoot just as well as bulls and no difference how a bullet performs, and cows are not exactly nice little girls either! God almighty, do forgive me but I do love putting bullet to buffalo!

Michael

Will start trying some Lapua dummies in the M70-RUM box.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Will start trying some Lapua dummies in the M70-RUM box.

You'll likely have to widen the box front and rear to accomodate 3-down which shouldn't be to much of an issue. I believe Mike Cuypers, Bijou Creek Gunsmithing, has modified the M70 Classic for the 500 Jeffery...so it definately can be done.

Edit Added: Yep…M70, 500 Jeffery, 16” barrel, 7 lbs weight with scope!

Here’s the thread link:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...1019521/m/3791030621

Gotta Love "The Kid" always a class act! Do love those short, handy fast rifles! At 16 inches I wonder about powder burn with a case of that capacity? With the bore size there is a lot of cubic inches inside that barrel to provide volume, but just curious if 16 inches is enough, 18 inches, 20 inches max? The B&Ms do not have that much capacity so they burn proper in 18-20 depending on caliber, the 500 MDM I think could do a 19-20, but have 21s on them now. Now if we could just get the "Kid" on some proper Non-Cons for these guns!

I am going to miss buffalo this year!

Michael

quote:

Gotta Love "The Kid" always a class act! Do love those short, handy fast rifles! At 16 inches I wonder about powder burn with a case of that capacity? With the bore size there is a lot of cubic inches inside that barrel to provide volume, but just curious if 16 inches is enough...

Have to go with H335 and faster to get 99.9%-100% powder burn; will also require filler to keep the powder near the primer due to the case volume.

I have not checked, but I was thinking maybe H322 also? Seems I have better luck for some reason with 322 than 335? I know Jeffe loves the 335 too, and it's super in the ARs?

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I have not checked, but I was thinking maybe H322 also? Seems I have better luck for some reason with 322 than 335? I know Jeffe loves the 335 too, and it's super in the ARs?

M

Yep...H110 (58.8% fill) through H335 (77% fill); I like H322 (81.3% fill) as well as it seems slightly more efficient than H335.

Michael,

It's been quiet so far this week. Been testing this week or has work interfered again?

Capo

Little of both. I have been on the range 3 days this week, but working with and testing some loads in 500 MDMs. I did have a couple of terminals I did earlier today, letting the barrel cool on one of the 500s. Sam had a cup point and a hollow base flat nose I put in the box. Have not had time to input the data yet.

Also, been sorting out the "Lab", it's was a mess, little better now.

Probably be doing test work all next week. My hunting partner is coming in Sunday night with a truck load of dead buffalos from the taxidermist. So we will shoot most every day next week. Will work in some terminals thru the week, try and shoot some of those that Sam sent in last week.

That will be the last of our Nose Profile work too. The ones we have now are the JDJ noses at different degrees.

I sent samples of the one 250 9.3 I tested a few weeks ago. I am going to have a run done in copper, they will come to about 260 grs. Anyone wants some of these let me know, I am going to run either 500 or 1000 of them. 68% meplat! They will drive to 55 plus inches in the test medium, dead straight, and will work with the various 250 gr bullets I shoot in the 9.3 B&M.

Oh, and also, I just got in Woodleigh Hydros 458 450 grs, and 286 9.3s. Should have North Forks 286 9.3 in a few days, so these will start working next week. Sam made a flat nose hydro and a .500 caliber copy of a hydro--find out what the cup point does if anything with those.

There is a lot of testing slated. It was "EXTREME" hot here today, 95 + and heat index over 115. I could only keep the range cooled to 86 at the 25 yd line. So.......gotta get started earlier..



Michael

quote:

It was "EXTREME" hot here today, 95 + and heat index over 115.

Stay in front of the AC and out of that heat! You have to stay healthy to finish all those tests. LOL

Killing me here too ... 75 today!!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Killing me here too ... 75 today!!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Killing me here too ... 75 today!!

Low tonight is a steamy 60 degrees .. yes that's F and not C like y'all got out yo way!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Killing me here too ... 75 today!!

Low tonight is a steamy 60 degrees .. yes that's F and not C like y'all got out yo way!

Are you on "Crack"

That's a lot of crack. Say Mike ... you still got any of them jungle management jobs available? I'd like to get out and commune with nature where there's some proper weather! This place is pretty boring.

J

Better stay in that 75 degree weather out there, 115 degree heat index is tough out in the bush 10 hrs a day! And I don't have any cold weather jobs, we won't be going back to Canada next year!


M

Michael,

You need to change your tag line to Michael500.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

You need to change your tag line to Michael500.

465H&H

465

Yes, today I suppose michael500 would be more appropriate considering. However, the problem is that I have been michael458 for so long that I would not know myself as anything else, I would forget how to log on to Midway, AR, and all the other places I visit. Someone would call, "hey, michael500" and I would be looking around to see who they were talking to?

Michael458/500

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

You need to change your tag line to Michael500.

465H&H

Yes, today I suppose michael500 would be more appropriate considering. However, the problem is that I have been michael458 for so long that I would not know myself as anything else, I would forget how to log on to Midway, AR, and all the other places I visit. Someone would call, "hey, michael500" and I would be looking around to see who they were talking to?

Michael458/500

It would be OK Michael. They say that confusion is good for the soul!

465H&H

Michael458,

From another forum, some info that certainly validates your testing. I believe these were used in a 450/400 3" at approx 2000 fps mv.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=0#Post166121

89 buff and ONLY ONE did not exit!
Esskay

465HH

No man, I must try and stay focused, as hard as it is to do! The older I get the worse it gets too! Right now I am pulled in so many directions I feel like a.....well I will tell you in private someday, can't say that in public!



Esskay

Thank you! And Welcome. If you have been here with us before, forgive me, read the last couple of posts, mind is going fast and I can't remember anything these days, so welcome again if so! Went over took a look at the Hydros. Thanks for the link

I have only tested the one sample some months ago, it did very well in the test work. Last week Midway had some on hand, so I have now some 458 Caliber 450 gr Hydros, and some 9.3 caliber 286s. About the "ugliest" bullets I have ever seen in my life! However, ugly is as ugly does, and if they perform who cares.

One question I have is the "Cup Point". Under normal conditions the Cup Point is supposed to "limit" penetration as opposed to a normal flat nose profile of the same? Our man Sam has made some samples, same bullet with flat nose as opposed to the same bullet with they hydro cup? I will be testing those this coming week I think. Along with some of the Woodleigh Hydros.

Now cup points are funny things, and I don't have a handle on them yet. I have the North Fork Cup Points sorted out well, and have an extremely high opinion of them, and they work as designed. I tested a sample cup point yesterday designed by Sam, and it gave the same penetration as the same bullet in a flat nose? Not supposed to?

I tested a prototype of one of my .500 caliber solids and it did the same as the flat nose. Some weeks ago Sam and I tested a cup point he did in 577 caliber and it did substantially less than the same bullet in flat nose.

So what I am saying is that the engineers of the cup point design have their act together, as it seems to be a very thin line of what reduces penetration and what does not reduce penetration? Of course, expansion does this, so I am speaking only of the cup points that do not expand. I don't have it figured out, that's for sure. But I will!

Thanks

Micheal

The Woodleigh "Hydro-Cup-Point" penetration seems to be as good as a good FN solid.
It is made of hard enough alloy to prevent expansion. Thus it penetrates well.

The North Fork Cup Point is soft enough copper that it expands.
That makes it penetrate only about 75% of what the Flat Point solid by North fork does,
though about 50% deeper than the North Fork Soft Point does,
assuming all of same weight, caliber, and velocity.

Is this Woodleigh nose shape just a sales gimmick to distinguish it from a direct copy of the truncated cone FN solid?
Or do the hardened cutting edges of the cup allow better penetration and maintain shoulder stabilization too?

From the Esskay-provided www.nitroexpress.com link:

quote:

The Woodleigh "Hydro-Cup-Point" penetration seems to be as good as a good FN solid.
It is made of hard enough alloy to prevent expansion. Thus it penetrates well.

I had good results from the test in my 470 Nitro with the Hydros, slight edge goes to the NF solids, but the Woodys beat the others I tested.

Yes I am still around, somebody needs to keep an eye on Dr. M. He is pulled in so many directions that he cannot even spell his name correctly. (Two post up)

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

I had good results from the test in my 470 Nitro with the Hydros, slight edge goes to the NF solids, but the Woodys beat the others I tested.

Yep,
Must be where I got that idea, your tests!

So rate these on depth of penetration:

North Fork Soft Point: 5
North Fork Cup Point: 7.5
Woodleigh HCP: 9
North Fork FP: 10

quote:

Now cup points are funny things, and I don't have a handle on them yet. I have the North Fork Cup Points sorted out well, and have an extremely high opinion of them, and they work as designed. I tested a sample cup point yesterday designed by Sam, and it gave the same penetration as the same bullet in a flat nose? Not supposed to?

RIP is spot on, it depends on the harness/softness of the materail

I am leaning heavy to the "material" issue. I basically stated the North Fork did not expand, that's not entirely correct, the 450 Cup Point did not expand, like the 350s and 325s, but the edges were distorted slightly to just ever so slightly larger than original. This could have easily caused less penetration than the flat nose.

I have only one question that stands out. Again, it's a poor excuse as it was ONE bullet, the sample 577 that Sam and I tested months ago. Same everything, weight, velocity, material everything. Just one had a perfect flat nose, the other just a slightly dipped cup point and it was 50+ inches for the flat point, and 40 inches for the cup. Before the test, I remember telling Sam--there will be no difference in the two, they will go the same distance! So you see, I was very surprised at the just slight cup made that much difference?

Sam had a great sample I tested yesterday--Still have not had time to photo and load data. But I fully expected it to be less penetration than it's equal with the flat nose--it actually surpassed the flat nose, but it did so a bit off course by an inch. Not expected???? So now by my count I have 3 hardened cups that equal penetration of the same in flat nose, and one that was much less? North Fork Flat/Cup--exactly as designed, cup being less.

So yes, I buy the hardened material--but still have the 1 unanswered question in my mind, that requires more investigation I think.

Woodleigh Hydros---Upside down beer cans!!!!!!!! Well, Sam made us some samples, we will most likely have an answer next week on this. Flat/Cup, brass, hard, should tell us!

I swear, those 9.3 286 Hydros are really bad ugly---long-I have to measure them, but they look extremely long in comparison.

I almost have to discount the hydros on aesthetics alone!

But I promise to give them a fair going, if they do as well as the 400 gr 458 did some time back, they pass. But will never win a "Bullet Beauty Contest".

Good Night, well past my bed time

M

(M will have to do, forgot how to spell my name )

OK, I'm back. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
What did I miss. . . . . ?

Welcome back Dennis. Changes are mostly in this thread but you'll be here when Michael posts his latest test efforts.