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OK the next batch I'll put a radius on the edge. Picky Picky! I'm doing the best I can to get bullets made that Michael can test. | |||
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Hey Sam you're doing a very good job. We need(ed) the tests with both sharp edge and radiused edge…how else will the best shape be identified. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Sam, this is a great thing! If proven a difference of penetration between the two we discovered something good. Maybe run some steel wool on them to make them as slippery and as s smooth as can be. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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OK I guess this means 4 bullets of each for the next test. Michael no rest in sight! Hey lets go test these bullets on elephant and forget the paper pulp! Sam | |||
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Test them on Buffalo, elephant are easy! No, boomy, did not expand, bullet hit one of the staples on the edge. No expansion on any of them. I am not sure of the sharp edge vs the rounded. Maybe. On the North Forks the sharp edges are knocked off to facilitate feed and function. The barnes is just part of the profile, effect on penetration..........?? Yes I did have a 675 bullet with no label. Will get it sorted out and posted, problem is I am in the big chair now, kinda getting lazy. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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OK now I have to polish them to a matchless finish! Maybe we should moly coat some too. Boron Nitride some more and diamond coat even more. I can make anything if I had the time and the tools! You know there used to be a bullet that had lube inside and as it was fired it would squirt the lube out little holes in the sides of the bullet. Maybe I can make some that when they hit the test media they squirt out KY jelly! | |||
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Now wait a minute, this could get dangerous! I didn't sign up for this! Don't not one of you come around me with something squirting KY! I ain't having no part of that!  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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 x 10577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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excellent Michael and Sam.. Nice work. By the way - what is rate of twist on Sams 577 rifle?? Most 577 doubles have a relatively slow twistrate like 1-20" or 1-30".. From what I see, the Barnes Banded 750 grs will do well though only 63% meplat..(would have been nice if they made it 65-67% though). I have a 1-12" twist barrel on my rifle and will be able to load them up to 2600 fps, could be fun to see how they would perform in Michaels paper pulp with that combination. | |||
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this have got to be the all time winner, BPE velocity and penetration as the rest, the two band design is really looking nice and i would actually like to try it in one of my BPE guns for the fun of it. sam get it into production, please  best peter | |||
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Great Work ALL Y'All of Doc M's MBIT!  Could you clarify for me the current thinking on nose shapes for solids, ogived-FN (like the BBS) vs. truncated-cone-FN (like the GSC FN and North Fork FP), and how much radius is desirable on the nose-edge of the truncated cone FN? Actually the BBS ogived-FN solid is sort of like a huge radius on straight cylinder FN! Is it all good as long as the Flat Nose diameter excluding any radius is 65 to 70 percent of bullet diameter? Ogive and edge radius on the FN just add to feeding ease? Does a sharp nose edge offer any terminal ballistic benefits in Doc M's test medium or live game? | |||
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RIP All good points, all good questions too. Sam is going to knock the edge off some of those bullets. One I would like to see, (I must mention this to him) is the very recent test I did with the 500 gr .500 caliber, long nose solid, very sharp meplat edges, great velocity, 2166 muzzle from the 50 B&M and 18 inch barrel. Penetration WAY short of what I expected. Sharp edges the culprit of penetration?? Maybe, I don't really know. I do know that this bullet should have given much deeper penetration than what it did. I would have expected 58-62 inches easy. Now if we can get Sam to duplicate this one, with rounded edges to the meplat, maybe we find out?  I saw a lot of mass trauma in the test medium with the larger meplats, whether a more rounded edge would have done the same, I suspect it would have, or so close one really could not tell. Seems to me also with the 577 tests most of the very sharp meplat edges were shorter on penetration than the samples of ones with more rounded radius. But also they had larger meplats, so nothing concrete yet. I think Sam will work on some of each to establish the fact. Most all commercial solids with the longer nose profile have more rounded edges, no sharp edges. Now most of this is for feed and function, which makes good sense, but it may also have much to do with penetration? Sharper edges causing the bullet to cut through the target, expending energy, slowing down quicker, less penetration??? Maybe? I also don't think that the sharp edges are "adding" anything to stability, actually may be taking away from it. I bet we soon see! I have been working on getting some bullet tests/photos loaded and organized on the B&M site, take a look at what I have so far, I am just getting started, and of course starting with B&M cartridges and bullet tests. As I move forward I will load other cartridges and tests under caliber, each with it's own page, like the B&Ms. But it is a slow process, and I am just getting started. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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OK if I round the edges this will reduce the true meplat diameter won't it? Hmmmm bet you didn't think of that! So is a 60% sharp edge the same as a 55% rounded? | |||
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Nope, going to have to do a 70% to get a 67% or what have you. Take a look at that North Fork I gave you yesterday. Can you do one that just knocks the edge off. Not a tremendous amount of metal. Just the sharp edge??? Needs to be done on the lathe. As much as I trust your bastard file, the very slightest nothing will make a change, maybe one we can't even see will make a big difference. Can that be done? M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Hey, don't forget, talking to a man they will not allow to own a bastard file you know! Do you have any idea the things I can destroy with just a bastard file? HEH M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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OK I'LL make you 4 more long nose 500 grain with angle and 2 will have sharp edge and 2 with radius edge. Well you got your wish I'LL have you at least 20 more total for you to test. Made you a couple of .458's today. | |||
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There you have it guys, the "Never Ending Test Thread for Terminal Bullet Performance", Sam WILL NOT ever let us run out of bullets to test! I already have a backlog in the lab, some loaded, some needing to be loaded, more on the way! We just learned optimum meplats, and what % meplat does what, now we are investigating various cup points, rounded/sharp edge meplats, and double safe bands, lubes, and who knows what else may crop up as we move forward! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, If you get tired of testing just let me know I'LL stop sending you samples. Don't want to stress you out! | |||
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Hell no, never get tired of testing!!!!!!!! I keep learning more and more that way! Pretty soon we will discover something better than bullets (give me a break), and it will burn straight thru both boxes, 10 feet of berm, 2 feet of concrete walls and out, from a 4.5 lb 16 inch barrel rifle. Until we get to that point we must "Endeavor to Persevere"  Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I agree whole heartedly. Someday if we keep trying new things we might find the perfect design. | |||
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This one in copper with one more band in front of the top one just may be perfect for multiple crimp options. Next test might need to be these in 100 FPS velocity increase steps
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The twist in my Demas 577 is somewhere in the 1-20 to 1-21 range as best I can tell. Peter, I'm not going into production on bullets but if there is enough interest in the 577 after we find the perfect bullet we might get a run made. Sam | |||
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Sam has been busy with that bastard file making sample bullets! I have the photos and going to load them up for you as a teaser of things to come! WOW! I would have never believed that we would have such great opportunities to test everything we can think of and then some more with the solids we have been working with, and many thanks to Sam for his bastard file skills and efforts. Sam is right, on any and all bullets that we find we like for one reason or another, regardless of caliber, we are working with the best bullet people on the planet, some right here on this thread with us, where are you "J"? Between these guys, we can get the bullets into production easy. As for 1 perfect design, no forget it! Sometimes work may call for an over large meplat, not for deepest penetration, but for increased transfer of trauma, or in fact to limit penetration. Then there is optimum meplat for deep straight penetration, then the cup points have their perfect niche in which to transfer trauma and penetrate, and even limited penetration. No one bullet can do it all, and I confess, I really don't want one that does everything, what fun is that, what thought process is needed for a 1 bullet world? No thanks, I like bullets, lot's of them too, a 1 bullet world just would not be any fun! Different bullets for different missions! Of course missions overlap, and one would not be caught in the field unawares, that's the great thing about great bullets! Bullets "ENHANCE" or can cause any cartridge to fail or succeed! A cartridge cannot stand alone, nor can a rifle, it's all about the bullet! Without the bullet, the others are useless! Without the proper bullet the cartridge will fail miserably! With the right bullet a cartridge can be enhanced far beyond it's expectations! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Now how about this for a big double no filler bullet!  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Want to see the difference between a hydro cup point and the same bullet with a solid meplat???   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Want to see the difference between Sharp Edges on the meplat and a more rounded off edge???????   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Want to see a JDJ profile at different angles to see what might work best????   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Very awesome looking bullets...definately going to be interesting test results. I'm thinking the JDP 10 & 12 will penetrate less than the 15+ angle! Way to go Sam!!! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Sweeeeeeeet I think a 70% meplat to groove diameter sharp edge and then the same bullet with a radius Will be of most interest. Thanks for doing the comparison bullets! You guys are making quite the team. One test idea I had was a bullet test to compare a flat point to a bluff nose test. See what a slight convex flat ish point with a radius point compares to a true flat point like those new bullets that I think Norma made. You know the black bullet ones. I like the no filler bullet idea. This is similar to my idea of a long 12 gauge aluminum slug idea so no wad or cup ect needed. Lots of fun and education to be had here. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Damn, Just when I get some nice photos loaded to look at, we turn to a new page # 84! Anyone think this thread will go to page 100???? M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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 Yep! And likely beyond.Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Sorry Just quote the post with the new pics. Michael. You are going to have to make money selling the hard copy of this thread in volumes of 100 pages at a time. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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On the JDJs I am betting on the 17s and the 20s. On the hydros, I am betting on flat meplat. Sharp and Rounded??? I will go with the rounded smooth meplat, maybe?? HEH. I am going to have to dig and look at Mikes work with the Hydros. While effective they sure are ugly!!! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Thanks Guys! I having fun too and I'm glad you like what I'm trying to do. If it wasn't for Michael I wouldn't be doing all this and I'd still be shooting Woodleigh RN and thinking nothing else. What ever happened to the grant! I've gone through 18 feet of brass rod! Yeah I think page 100 will be a breeze! Oh I forgot to tell you, all bullets have 65% meplat so we will have a base line to follow. I have an idea for a bullet now for the deep penetration and will be working on it. Hope to have it to Michael by next week. Sam | |||
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The sharp edges along with a mepalt over 70% produce more trauma. I beleive that Micheal set 30" of penetration as adequate many pages back, I may be wrong. More trauma is not a bad thing. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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JWP I figure you must have been out for some time now, and you have had a lot to catch up on! Man Sam has been keeping us in test work for solids for sure. We are deeply investigating all sorts of avenues. In particular with some things we just don't have on the market proper yet. Sam I had some "Grants" lined up, but as I told you Friday they were stolen and taken to Washington! LOL, so there's your "Grants". I will get them back! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, I'm afraid Washington is going to steal a lot more of our money before its over! Sam | |||
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sam I am afraid that you are 100% correct! JWP Well you handgun boys have been trying to tell us hard heads for years about flat meplats! You guys are pretty close on meplat size. I remember you, me , Whit talking about penetration dropping off at 80% meplat, which it does, starts at 75% in fact with rifles. Now, also with each increase of 5% over 60% meplat, we start see start seeing more trauma transfered to the target too, just as both of you said a long time ago. Validated! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I also posted this over on the B&M thread-- Guys I have to tell you I am very excited this morning. We are getting ready to enhance the capabilities and expand the versatility of all the .500 caliber cartridges. While we have excellent bullets already available for these cartridges and rifles, 500 MDM, 50 B&M, 50 B&M Alaskan, and the 50 B&M Super Short, we can always add to versatility with a new bullet line. I am working with North Fork Tech on doing just that! We are working on several designs based on the entire North Fork Line! While exact weights are not 100% they will be close, a 450 gr FPS and CPS for the 500 MDM and 50 B&M, a 375 FPS and CPS for the 50 B&M Super Short and 50 B&M AK. Now these are in very early development, but we are looking at a 450-500 gr Bonded Core for the 500 MDM and 50 B&M, a 450 gr for the 50 B&M AK, and a 350 gr for the 50 Super Short. As all of you know my philosophy on this, but repeat and repeat again---A cartridge is only as good as it's bullet, the bullet does the heavy lifting and can make or break a cartridge! It's all about the Bullet in the end! No doubt I will keep you posted on this new development. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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