quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Hmmm guys - I am still puzzled by all this....

I will very soon try to shoot some CEB solids AND some Barnes FN solids (with much larger bearing surface) into some wet media .... Hmmmm - never experienced this before....

We are all puzzled as well. I look forward to seeing the results of your wet media testing.

This is not the first time we have run into mysteries on Terminals.

It's good for a group of forum friends to put heads together.

Capo-
I have a feeling that you are correct about the metal being at least part of the issue. That batch of bullets is just too brittle to handle the faster head start. Buffalo should clarify this within a few days.

But that will raise questions about proper petal explosion, which depends on the brittleness of brass over the cohesiveness of copper from what I've seen.

If a .510" Raptor at 2900 fps has the proper cohesiveness to engage the rifling without shearing, will it still pop the petals outward on impact? Or will they be pulled along the wound channel like "traditional" monometals?

Is it in any way possible that a combination of the freebore non-rotational distance travelled by Buffalo's bullet combined with the velocity it is being driven at may have forced the projectiles "through" the rifling instead of engaged by it, causing the rifling to actually strip the bands down ?

RIP,

You have brought up something that may be the reason for the no rifling. .500 bullet not .510. Buffalo should measure his bullets I think. Now the weight should tell which caliber they are. Remember Michael"s 475 Crapsticks had .477 barrels and still shot pretty good in the terminals, his bullets showed no rifling.

The cavity in the bullet really looks like a flaw in the metal to me. It is fractured and dark inside. I had some dril rod one time that had a crack the full length of the bar that would only show up when the steel was heat treated. Drove me nutts trying to figure out what was going on.

Sam,
If I'm reading you right, you are intimating that possibly Buffalo got .500 bullets in a .510 box? That would be an excellent reason for the bullets not to show the rifling.

Oh, by the way, why are we up so late/early?

I'm up early everyday but especially this time of year. It's blueberyy season and I have a big crop to pick. Time, Tide and Blueberries wait for no man! I have 6 weeks to make my living in so I have to be up before the chickens.

Love those blueberries, get to work Sam!

Are these the recovered bullets with bands of .501" diameter?



If so, they are not .510-caliber bullets.
They are .500-caliber bullets.

Is the weight of those near-pristine recovered solids 500 grains or 570 grains?
Blueberry producers and consumers want to know.


**************************************************************************************************
Letter to Terry Wee-wee-land:

Dear Terry,

Try this new Brass NonCon bullet, sample enclosed. It might make you smarter.
You might want to coat it with something besides moly, for comfort, before "seating" it,
and please do wear an exam glove when handloading.

Sincerely,

Let me help out with some of this speculation.

First, the bullets that Ulrik have are .510. Two things--The nose projection on the .500s are shorter than the .510 bullets. Next, see that little groove just above the top most band? The .500s do not have that little groove.





The bullets shown by Ulrik with no engraving marks are .510 caliber 570s.

The cavity is for sure a metal issue, I have no doubt of that. There must have been a cavity in the nose of that one.

As for penetration, don't forget my .477 barrels and the .472-.474 bullets. A proper design flat nose solid--65% meplat or larger, can self stabilize itself to a point! The BBW#13s are 67% meplat.





As indicated by Ulrik, penetration was excellent, even with no engraving, and a cavity in the nose!


As for a noncon shearing and not being engraved--that is not correct either!






In addition you can also see my 510 Wells engraved these bullets fine, and they are out of the exact same batch run as what Ulriks bullets are from. These were made at the same time from that first run of .510s.

So I am still



M

Er, uh ... This is another bizarre possibility:

Walter programmed the CNC machine to make a .500-caliber bullet look like a .510-caliber bullet now and then, just enough to cause a mystery now and then, a few bad bullets in every batch?

Has Walter been to Pennsylvania?

I still do not believe the brass is melting and getting wiped down to bore size.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

I still do not believe the brass is melting and getting wiped down to bore size.

I can't imagine what the issue is. At first I would have and did say the engraving was getting wiped by going through the bone. I don't really think that is the case now, as the bands don't really show any damage, or scratches, or dents, or anything, smooth as can be? If there was bone damage, it would show up on those bands, and on the nose as well.

They look a lot like my .474 caliber bullets that went down the .477 barrels.

The one with the nose cavity---metal issue, a void in the metal that just happened to be in that nose part of the bullet. Too bad that particular bullet did not get made into a NonCon, eh? Had that one been chosen for a NoNCon, it would have been found easy, or completely removed.

Ulrik said he measured at .510 some of the other bullets. So I don't know?

M

quote:

In addition you can also see my 510 Wells engraved these bullets fine, and they are out of the exact same batch run as what Ulriks bullets are from. These were made at the same time from that first run of .510s.

I don't see clear rifling on the 510 Wells.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

In addition you can also see my 510 Wells engraved these bullets fine, and they are out of the exact same batch run as what Ulriks bullets are from. These were made at the same time from that first run of .510s.

I don't see clear rifling on the 510 Wells.

I don't reckon you do, as those are the 470 bullets out of the 470 Capsticks of mine that have .477 barrels.

M

These are the .510 bullets out of the .510 Wells-- Same EXACT batch of bullets that Ulrik has.

Well, Ulrik's 510" sure don't look like your 510's.

Sam, I'm really a nice guy --I don't start my day with dumb orange juice ,I eat a piece of blueberry pie , for breakfast
every morning !

Looking through continuous casting info [common way of producing copper alloys] and all the common defects I can only come to one conclusion
Nothing that I could find shows anything like the weird bullet. I think that a piece of refractory material from ladle or tundish broke off and ended up in the brass .It's very large considering the diameter of the rod and by some miracle was never found and the rod never broke.
Must be a rare happening !

Tanz - that is the .474 bullets you posted - fired in Michaels oversize .477 bore!!!

mete, You da man! Keep eating those blueberries! You will be able to see better, think better and the blue in Viagra comes from blueberries! Well I wish I could claim the last one.

I would like to throw a theory out about little to no rifling engraving in bullets.

If the bullets are skidding as they are engaging the rifling, all bullets do to some extent. If you check the bore with a bore scope. It would reveal heavier than normal brass build up after several shots. To a point where it could fill the grooves and increase pressures.

quote:

The CEB bullets are exactly .510" over the bands before beeing shot and they all measure around .501" after recovery...

If this statement of buffalo's in his first post is correct, then the rifling must be shearing off the bands. He says they measure .501" over the bands after recovery.

Look at the photo of his fired bullets. I magnified my computer screen to 400% to minimize measuring error, and the forward "bore-riding" part of the bullets is the same diameter as the bands, .501". In fact, the "bore-riding" nose of the bullet shows no scuffing, where the bands do show scuffing, meaning they must have been larger at one time (prior to firing) and then have been machined down to .501" through the barrel. I have no doubt the 1 in 10" fast rifling also plays a part in this band shearing, as cast bullet shooters have observed this phenomenon with fast twists for a long time.

... hmmm... easy cleaning of barrel, almost no copper residue...

Well - tonight I am taking the rifle to my gunsmith once more for a second cast of the barrel. And will also have a look at the throat as well.. Just to be certain there is no issues with the barrel...

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
... hmmm... easy cleaning of barrel, almost no copper residue...

Well - tonight I am taking the rifle to my gunsmith once more for a second cast of the barrel. And will also have a look at the throat as well.. Just to be certain there is no issues with the barrel...

If nothing else, this additional trip will verify your barrel is fine.

I believe once you've recovered a couple of bullets from your wet pack test - fired at 2300+ fps - you'll have verified evidence of the problem. LOL...At least we'll pontificate sufficiently as to what the problem is...

Re-reading your original post...there should be slight scraping around the banding as you've measured the banding diameter at 0.510" while the maximum groove diameter for your barrel is 0.50944"...sufficient for the shine to be scraped off but not shear the banding to 0.501" diameter...which is slightly greater than the 0.50019" bore diameter of your barrel.

So anyway, your wet pack test will lead to discussions of..."Dang what up with that barrel?". Or..."Dang how'd the bones of that hippo get so abrasive to schear the banding off those bullets?"

I foresee some interesting conversation!

P.S. I have no intent to belittle the problem you're attempting to solve...it's just so darn interesting!

Michael,

Does anyone else - to your knowledge - have some of the same batch of .510" FN Solid bullets that also has one of Jeffe's long throat 500 AR's? It'd definately be interesting to have them do a wetpack test at 2300+ fps to determine if they have band schearing issues.

Just a thought...

quote:

that also has one of Jeffe's long throat 500 AR's?

Probably most of the 500AccR rifles out there have a 1.25" throat.
Everyone who has used Jeffeoso's reamer or McGowen barrels probably has the long throat.

And since the throats are only two and one/half calibres long they may be awesome. That extra space virtually enlarges the capacity and they may be able to be loaded to 500Mbogo ballistics with the right loads. Wouldn't it be ironic if we needed to use pure copper with the long throats?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

that also has one of Jeffe's long throat 500 AR's?

Probably most of the 500AccR rifles out there have a 1.25" throat.
Everyone who has used Jeffeoso's reamer or McGowen barrels probably has the long throat.

And since the throats are only two and one/half calibres long they may be awesome. That extra space virtually enlarges the capacity and they may be able to be loaded to 500Mbogo ballistics with the right loads. Wouldn't it be ironic if we needed to use pure copper with the long throats?

Likely it's a 2 edged sword. To take advantage of the 2.5 caliber throat length one needs a long magazine length or the bolt gun is reduced to one-in-the-tube...so not an advantage in a M77 Ruger but perhaps an advantage in a CZ 550 Magnum action.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

that also has one of Jeffe's long throat 500 AR's?

Probably most of the 500AccR rifles out there have a 1.25" throat.
Everyone who has used Jeffeoso's reamer or McGowen barrels probably has the long throat.

And since the throats are only two and one/half calibres long they may be awesome. That extra space virtually enlarges the capacity and they may be able to be loaded to 500Mbogo ballistics with the right loads. Wouldn't it be ironic if we needed to use pure copper with the long throats?

Likely it's a 2 edged sword. To take advantage of the 2.5 caliber throat length one needs a long magazine length or the bolt gun is reduced to one-in-the-tube...so not an advantage in a M77 Ruger but perhaps an advantage in a CZ 550 Magnum action.

Actually, even with a short cartridge length the throat gives a virtual capacity increase by smoothing out the pressure curve. As the bullet enters the throat the effective pressure with the powder and is much lower.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

that also has one of Jeffe's long throat 500 AR's?

Probably most of the 500AccR rifles out there have a 1.25" throat.
Everyone who has used Jeffeoso's reamer or McGowen barrels probably has the long throat.

And since the throats are only two and one/half calibres long they may be awesome. That extra space virtually enlarges the capacity and they may be able to be loaded to 500Mbogo ballistics with the right loads. Wouldn't it be ironic if we needed to use pure copper with the long throats?

Likely it's a 2 edged sword. To take advantage of the 2.5 caliber throat length one needs a long magazine length or the bolt gun is reduced to one-in-the-tube...so not an advantage in a M77 Ruger but perhaps an advantage in a CZ 550 Magnum action.

Actually, even with a short cartridge length the throat gives a virtual capacity increase by smoothing out the pressure curve. As the bullet enters the throat the effective pressure with the powder and is much lower.

IIRC thats why Roy Weatherby went with long throats-

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

that also has one of Jeffe's long throat 500 AR's?

Probably most of the 500AccR rifles out there have a 1.25" throat.
Everyone who has used Jeffeoso's reamer or McGowen barrels probably has the long throat.

And since the throats are only two and one/half calibres long they may be awesome. That extra space virtually enlarges the capacity and they may be able to be loaded to 500Mbogo ballistics with the right loads. Wouldn't it be ironic if we needed to use pure copper with the long throats?

Likely it's a 2 edged sword. To take advantage of the 2.5 caliber throat length one needs a long magazine length or the bolt gun is reduced to one-in-the-tube...so not an advantage in a M77 Ruger but perhaps an advantage in a CZ 550 Magnum action.

Actually, even with a short cartridge length the throat gives a virtual capacity increase by smoothing out the pressure curve. As the bullet enters the throat the effective pressure with the powder and is much lower.

IIRC thats why Roy Weatherby went with long throats-

SSR

Ok, I'll believe you guys. . But, I believe I'll be more than happy with the throat specification we have on the 12.7x68 MT as RIP is getting awesome accuracy in two rifles - Win M70 and Brno 602...should work just fine in my commercial FN M98 based rifle.

I have figured this crap out. It just dawned on me that my 50 Alaskan barreled by McGowen did the same crap with cast bullets even with gas checks on them. Even jacketed Barnes tubing bullets barely showed rifling marks. My barrel was ordered as a .510 groove but it had a .515 groove diameter. This has got to be what is going on. Remeasure your groove diameter and I bet you will find it is at least .512 or bigger.
Just like Michael's Capstick with the .477 groove which should have been .474. He showed you those bullets that have no rifling on them and the gun still shot very well.

Sam

Getting a .515 barrel when .510 was desired is indeed a bad thing.
What make is buffalo's barrel?
Does anyone have the reamer drawing for the 500 AccRel allowable for public viewing?
How about a 500 MDM or 50 B&M reamer drawing?
I have two different sorts of throats on the 500 Mbogo and 12.7x68 Magnum/49-10.
Will gladly share.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I have figured this crap out. It just dawned on me that my 50 Alaskan barreled by McGowen did the same crap with cast bullets even with gas checks on them. Even jacketed Barnes tubing bullets barely showed rifling marks. My barrel was ordered as a .510 groove but it had a .515 groove diameter. This has got to be what is going on. Remeasure your groove diameter and I bet you will find it is at least .512 or bigger.
Just like Michael's Capstick with the .477 groove which should have been .474. He showed you those bullets that have no rifling on them and the gun still shot very well.

Sam

I wish it were so easy. Buffalo's gunsmith already slugged his barrel and found it within spec.

As for McGowen, the 500AccR rifle that contributed the bullet pictures on the last page (570 TSX with RIFLING tracks)had an interesting story. The owner said that the first barrel was rejected by McGowen, causing a delay, but resulting in a better barrel that passed their spec. The same thing happened with me. Internal quality control lengthened the delivery time with a first barrel rejected and a second barrel installed in the name of quality control. It sounds like they are making sure that their barrels meet their spec. I would send my rifle back to them if I wanted a different barrel.

But again, that cannot be Buffalo's problem since he has a tight barrel.
PS: I think he used a 'cut-rifling' British firm.

As for the .510 570 BBW#13 and no engraving, I know what it is not--Not undersized bullet, not bone (as there would be something showing more damage on the bands like the T'Rex bullets), Not a .500 bullet, not 1:10 twist rate--as my 475s are 1:10-they have plenty of engraving on BBW#13s.

If this bullet is going down a .510 barrel--there would be some indication of that! My bet is on a .514-.515 barrel. The bullets look exactly like my .474s going down a .477 barrel.

I concur with Sam until we hear better. And Tanz, how was the barrel slugged? Ulrik is going to have that done again--as it seems he is not so sure about it either?

Anyway, mystery continues

Is Ulrik's gunsmith converting decimal to metric that might also be part of the problem with the bore size not measuring right.

I have a mystery I think is busted now!

Remember the other day--a few pages ago now--mentioned about Dan doing some long range shooting and testing LVSP at long range? Well, some results are starting to leak in, and the NEWS IS FANTASTIC for you nut bags that want to shoot long range crap!

Excellent example;

I tested here at loaded down velocity the 338s Saturday before last. All day Long! I was sick of LVSP, still am. 200 ESP Raptor with D-Talon Tip--I got down to 1600 fps before I got to tired to mess with it anymore. But I had real live issues with the 175 ESP Raptor with D-Talon Tips. I could only reliably get to 1950 fps with 100% shear. Drop below that and 1 shear, 1 no shear and go sideways. OK--that's when Dan and I spoke, do HP tips in everything! But, lets wait to see how long range shear works! Good thing we did!

338 175 ESP Raptor D-Talon Tip

851 yards (847 between chronographs)
Muzzle velocity-3484/3497
Impact Velocity-1295/1309
No Shear-

600 yards (596 between chronographs)
Muzzle Velocity-3479/3502
Impact velocity-1907/1919
Perfect shear

691 yards (687 between chronographs)
Muzzle velocity-3481
Impact velocity-1686
Perfect shear

709 yards (705 yards between chronographs)
Muzzle velocity-3482
Impact velocity-1636
Perfect shear

Now, I suspect this--by just loading these tiny small bore bullets down and testing at 50 yards, at very low velocity they are just not stable at 48 yard impacts, and not hitting square on. By starting at full velocity, and getting out to 600-800 yards, they are fully stable at that same low velocity, hitting square on, and shear is achieved proper.

For a fact down to 1636 fps shear at 700 yards! You have no damned business shooting something that far anyway!

.308 130 ESP Raptor With Talon Tips.

600 yards
Muzzle velocity (estimated at 3300fps from prior testing)
Impact velocity-1589/1590fps
Perfect shear

Same story with the 308s.

With this coming to light--THANK GOD--then there is ZERO POINT in me attempting to do LVSP on anything smaller than 9.3 caliber. Which I already have LVSP on most of the real Bores from 9.3 up. Have work to do on the new .510 coming. Which I am betting drops to 1500 fps LVSP, or less.

So, I have fired myself from doing LVSP on anything under 9.3 caliber!

More work is being done by CEB and Dan on LVSP with the rat bores. Right now we all have decided that we DO NOT NEED HP TIPS for the rat bores. What we have is excellent now!

So unless you hear different from me or Dan, it looks like current Tips under 9.3 caliber are good to go and will not change, and no HPs added to them. Testing continues...................


Michael

I almost forgot to mention this! OK, now that I am FREE from rat caliber LVSP--Guess what I am really going to do here at MIB?????

Now, we are going to do some load development in 338 caliber with these 175/200 Raptors. I am going to see if we can smoke'em in that 338 Ultra I have, and then we are going to play with them in 338 WSM, once we get to the point of heavy bolt lift, then we gonna put them to the terminals and see what happens!

Then, we are going to see what we can do with those 100/130 ESP Raptors in 30/30, 308, and 300 Winchester! In particular do some load development with the 100 in the old thumper 30/30. I am expecting big things with that!

No more rat LVSP!

I believe Buffalo said earlier that he ordered a cut rifled barrel from Border Barrels Ltd in the UK.

Perhaps this time he'll take the barrel slug with him and re-measure when he gets home just to verify.

I see the 100 grain 308 as a great round for up to deer and a heck of a self defense bullet for 30-30 on up. It should penetrate well but at high velocity be vicious. The 85 grain raptor for the 6.8 SPC has started to kill some hogs and you can follow that on the 6.8 forums website but its a no no to
Post a link to another forum here but it's getting a great review.
Here is the exit wound from the 6.8 SPC and the 85 grain Raptor. A "lightning DRT" said the shooter.

Boomy,

If you haven't already, you need to post that on the other two threads.

Michael,
I will thank you ahead of time for the testing using the .338 WSM. Later, my grandsons will thank you for the testing in .30-30!
Max

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I almost forgot to mention this! OK, now that I am FREE from rat caliber LVSP--Guess what I am really going to do here at MIB?????

Now, we are going to do some load development in 338 caliber with these 175/200 Raptors. I am going to see if we can smoke'em in that 338 Ultra I have, and then we are going to play with them in 338 WSM, once we get to the point of heavy bolt lift, then we gonna put them to the terminals and see what happens!

Then, we are going to see what we can do with those 100/130 ESP Raptors in 30/30, 308, and 300 Winchester! In particular do some load development with the 100 in the old thumper 30/30. I am expecting big things with that!

No more rat LVSP!

_________________________________________

Doc M,

Thank you. Now I do not need to take any of those nasty anti-addiction meds that the doctor prescribed!

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Michael,
I will thank you ahead of time for the testing using the .338 WSM. Later, my grandsons will thank you for the testing in .30-30!
Max

Max

I have a good bit of data already on 338 WSM, much of it pressure tested. Anytime you want it I can send it to you pdf.

I am not going to pressure test any of this stuff I am doing now however. Just gonna load, load up, and see where I can go without things getting sticky! HEH.......

This too you can have as well.

Starting today.

M