Just loaded them up for testing - accuracy, penetration and expansion. Hornady DGS, CEB #13 Solids and CEB #13 Non-Cons in the mix ...













Don't know what snuck into those last two photos - Might have to have Michael458 check them out

I need to post one of my favorite pics. I placed a small flashlight in the chamber of my Overkill and a 460Wby shell in the barrel headstamp out, rim about .08" below muzzle. It makes a stunning photo. The first time I did it with my cell phone to send to a friend with a 416Wby. His response was not repeatable!

Originally posted by IBT:

quote:

Is the phobia centered on the barrels or the .395 caliber?

Brian at SSK refused to use a McGowen barrel for rebarreling my rifle to .458 B&M.
He did allow a Pac-Nor.
He may have never even heard of the .395.

CCMDoc

Well, I would say that the photos look great, but I will say the cartridges, rifles, and bullets really do look great, sorta, maybe, little fuzzy around the edges, but I get the jest of it! HEH HEH.........

Do be careful with those BIG NonCons--things can get lost inside them! LOL

Yeah, well maybe after we do .409 tests we will test something bigger! YEAH------

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Originally posted by IBT:

quote:

Is the phobia centered on the barrels or the .395 caliber?

Brian at SSK refused to use a McGowen barrel for rebarreling my rifle to .458 B&M.
He did allow a Pac-Nor.
He may have never even heard of the .395.

Facinating about the barrels.

Lets hope he hears about the .395 soon.

"Just loaded them up for testing - accuracy, penetration and expansion. Hornady DGS, CEB #13 Solids and CEB #13 Non-Cons in the mix ..."

Surley Robin would have had something to say like; Holy bore diameters Batman! Those would stop a tank.

IBT

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Hey Michael nice work toy!

By the way, I received a very heavy small box today…woohaa…talk about some very superb looking BIG bullets!

I sat the .620 caliber next to the .585 caliber next to the .500 caliber CEB BBW #13 FN Solids and it looked by Big Daddy, Slightly Smaller Mama standing next to a small child…and the .500 caliber was a 500grainer!!!! Dang…now I truly understand that moving above 50 caliber is a whole new leap up in BBBIIIGGG!!!!!

I have a whole new level of awe for those individuals who regularly shoot the +.600 caliber rifles!

Hey Jim,

You mean like this:
Size does matter ...

Very funny Paul…but yes! Now if those were .500 caliber that 2nd bullet from the left would be a dead ringer for one of the prototype Spitzer bullets that Sam created for me with his bastard files!!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Capo

Yes, I know, put our .500s up against the .620 and .585s is not a good idea. Get to thinking .500 is minor caliber when you do that! My salvation is that it is just not a simple thing to get anything above .500 on a Winchester M70--I did not say impossible, I said not simple! I like simple things, gets too complicated it causes me issues! I could seriously want a .585 on one of my Winchesters--but simple does not enter into it! Hubel sent some dummies of his .585 and it will be a chore to do on a Winchester. But still looking.

M

Well… could be slightly easier by using the .500 Jeffery case and just neck expanding to .585 caliber; would look like a jumbo 50 B&M. Here’s one of SAFARIKID’s M70s in .500 Jeffery:

Built by Mike Cuypers of Bijou Creek…it has 16” barrel and weighs 7lbs. Should be a 3-shot (one in tube and 2-down). Most definitely fits your style of shoulder cannon!

Any thoughts on a 700 grain non con for 12 gauge? Sheer petals down to 800 fps.

577 on Jeffery brass and 600 on Nyati brass no shoulder would work.

Michael, Does having a letter "T" stamped into the meplat negatively affect penetration or the tendency to veer off course?

Andy

Well, the FedEx fairy finally showed up with a box full of shiny brass things and I picked the new 416 B&M up at the shop. Man those BBW #13s are long in person.

happy dance time--rounds down range tomorrow



SSR

SSR

Cross
I put my day on hold to sign for your heavy box, keep you posted on the detailed tracking information on your other package, do your laundry, take you to out to dinner, feed your dog and hand over my Zeiss scope...and all I got was a pat on the head before you giggled and pirouetted down the road dancing to ABBA's greatest hits! Gee that is some 'Happy Dance' dude.

I resemble that remark



SSR

drewhenry

Nope, the "T" seems to have zero effect on the "T" bullets we have tested here. Or at least none that we can tell.



CrossL

EXCELLENT--Very pleased all the packages arrived safely and intact! Can't wait to see some pics, range reports and such as that! Hold on tight!!!!!



Sam and I were busy yesterday, a very long day, some terminals with the 450/400, and 375 HH were conducted, a lot of the primer test work was done as well. Compiling the data is going to take some few days to do on this. The terminals I can get up in the next few days, but the "Primer Test" is rather extensive and will take some time. Currently our plan is to shoot 3 different cartridges with at least two different loads and bullets in each cartridge, and we are testing 8 different primers in each test. X3 for each run, equals 48 rounds per cartridge. I have picked the 9.3 B&M, 416 B&M, and 50 B&M for this test. Sam and I completed testing the 416 B&M yesterday, and got a start on 9.3 B&M. Lot's of data to record and organize into something realistic. So far the results are actually very surprising, and will be pleasing to most of you! But, beware, with testing of 3 cartridges, each with two powders, results will not always be the same, and may run into other things as this moves forward. When I get results of the 416 B&M and the tests I will post it as we move forward. It's a real learning experience.

I have much going on this week is one reason you won't most likely see much of me. We are starting our burning project this morning, that will take until late tomorrow if all goes well. So I am out of here for some few days.


But before I leave I must address something that has been pissing me off the last few weeks! I have been catching it from two sides, here and from a popular gun writer friend as well. You see he had a B&M built and took delivery the last week or so, against all my good advice he puts a 22 inch barrel on the rifle! Now, I have been catching it every day, something to the effect "Mine is longer than yours"! Finally I reply back that indeed it may be longer, I cannot deny, but that I have always heard that "Shorter is Stiffer". I have not heard back on that one yet!

Now ever since taken delivery of the .620s and .585s all I have heard from right here is "MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS"


Well I have had enough of that crap! I am sick of it, right up to my damned eyeballs with it! I am just NOT going to take that sort of abuse any longer! So I am going to show you my NEW CALIBER AND BBW #13 that I am going to be looking for a Winchester M70 that will handle it, and a cartridge to put it in!


Take your little tiny, small bore, mini caliber .620 and .585s and go shoot some rats with them! I am busy!





















Now MINE IS BIGGER

Michael

MICHAEL

You DA MAN!!

quote:

MICHAEL

You DA MAN!!

Michael,

I admire your attempts at bullet elephantitus. However, I believe you will need to add another .052 to shoot in a 4-BORE. Additionally 4K grains is a bit heavy. Perhaps you can get it closer to 2000grains with some sort of NonCon. Would really like to see a .620 "lost" in the cavity!!

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Michael,

I admire your attempts at bullet elephantitus. However, I believe you will need to add another .052 to shoot in a 4-BORE. Additionally 4K grains is a bit heavy. Perhaps you can get it closer to 2000grains with some sort of NonCon. Would really like to see a .620 "lost" in the cavity!!

Andy

School em Andy!!

quote:

Now MINE IS BIGGER

You win the measuring contest, Michael!

But wait...
Where's my gold spray paint and my can of Bush's baked beans?

Problem with something like that is finding a place to put it. Often not something you'd want to be seen with in public.

Any body know a good taxidermist that does whales??

SSR

quote:

Any body know a good taxidermist that does whales??

Just one? Sounds like you'd need more like a platoon of taxidermists!

What else would Michael hunt with that Monster??

SSR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(bore_diameter)
The 1" also known as the "B" Bore. In between the 6 and 4 bore. Seems the 4 bore diameter was all over the place.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(bore_diameter)
The 1" also known as the "B" Bore. In between the 6 and 4 bore. Seems the 4 bore diameter was all over the place.

Dangit all I knew that!

quote:

The 1" also known as the "B" Bore. In between the 6 and 4 bore. Seems the 4 bore diameter was all over the place.

That's what I understood after reading the article on the 4 bore rifle. Diameter varied between 0.935 and 0.955". Supposedly that's more like a 5 bore.

Well, y'all can read the doggone article yourselves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_bore

Apparently the 4 bore had problems in the penetration department. Despite this it apparently worked to a degree.

P.S. Hey, dig those shorts on Selous in that old photo! And check out those shoes that look vaguely like tennis shoes! He looks like a modern hunter!

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(bore_diameter)
The 1" also known as the "B" Bore. In between the 6 and 4 bore. Seems the 4 bore diameter was all over the place.

Dangit all I knew that!

a true 4 bore woudl be 1 inch .. i am unaware of any that are truely an inch

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(bore_diameter)
The 1" also known as the "B" Bore. In between the 6 and 4 bore. Seems the 4 bore diameter was all over the place.

Dangit all I knew that!

a true 4 bore woudl be 1 inch .. i am unaware of any that are truely an inch

A true 4-Bore would be 1.052". Pretty much everything close to one inch has been called a four bore over the years.

Good Morning All---

Well I am through playing with fire for a few days, at least until I get some better weather, did not get much done, wind kept blowing the wrong direction, so that held us back from getting finished. So waiting for some cooler days now! Here's a few pics, everyone likes a little fire, then I have some terminals and bullets to post.

Hazard Reduction Understory burning







At night the humidity goes up, temps are cooler, can let some roll without doing damage






What it looks like afterwards.






OK fire HiJack Off!

M

Sam and I did some test work the other day with the 375 CEB BBW #13s both 300 solid and the Noncon, along with the .409s. Test work was done in Sam's double rifles.

The 375 275 CEB BBW#13 NonCon will require some more test work, as you can see we lost one, and while penetration was good, and trauma inflicted was very good as always, you see it shed blades a couple of different sizes? Penetration is short of most other NonCons on this one, but it was dead straight, did not tumble, or veer at all, found nose forward. More test work is required on this one and possibly make the cavity wider, blades thinner. Only after some more test work is done however.




As for the 300 Gr CEB BBW#13 Solid, no extra work required it's RTG---(READY TO GO)



M

You know how I keep telling you regardless of what happens with the NonCons--they cannot fail? Because of the "Penetration"---With "Penetration" if you hit the spot-- Penetration will not allow you to fail!

Of all the NonCons and different calibers, even materials that we have worked with there has never been a failure! Now we have a "Failure" to Shed Petals--But not a failure to Penetrate for sure!






These NonCons should have in no way penetrated to the depths they did! This merely should act as a deep cavity Cup Point--but 60 inches of penetration? Dead straight? Should not be, but it is! The deal is simple, the blades/petals are thicker than they need to be, velocity is low, so a wider cavity is needed to shear properly with these.

On a High Note the .409 400 gr CEB BBW#13 Solid did just what all the #13 solids do---Penetrate deep and straight, these are totally boring to test!




Sam was shooting a double rifle of some sort, but it is .408 caliber, and these did not regulate in his rifle--two distinct groups left and right but far apart, and in addition was causing some higher pressures. If you have a .408 bore-- Do not waste time with these, get Dan to make some special .408 or .407 bullets for you. If you are .410 or .409 these might work for you.

I will be doing some additional test work very soon with CCMDocs 450/400 and see how it does with them. I assume the bore to be .410??????

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
[IMG]I will be doing some additional test work very soon with CCMDocs 450/400 and see how it does with them. I assume the bore to be .410??????
Michael

Supposed to be ...

Just for those that want to know. The double rifle I used in these tests for the .409s was a London Sporting Park 450-400 3 1/4 NE. It has 26 inch barrels I think but I will have to check on that. This is the best shooting double I have ever owned and we shot a few Woodleigh SPs just to check. These shot into 1 inch at 50 yards which is the way the gun shoots. The load is 81 grains of IMR 4831 with a 1/4 inch piece of backer rod filler and a Federal 215 primer. The velocity was right where it should be with the CEBs but it shot about 5 inches apart LL RR. Now I felt like this load was a little hot with the CEB and as Michael said my gun has a .408 groove dia. I will back off on this load to try and get around 2050 fps to see how it changes things. I know that if shots are wide you need more velocity unless you are at top speed then you need to slow them down to bring the barrels together.

The 375 H&H double I used in tests was a Chapuis thats shoots really well with 68 grains of IMR 4064 and this was the load used in tests with the CEBs. This rifle also shot apart by 3 inches so it showing the same things the 450-400 did.

Sam

Good burn Michael.
Those 409(beach boys song stuck in my head) bullets fill up that uber long neck of the 450/400 3 1/4".
Side note question. In those days (the black powder days) bullet noses were shorter so I assume part of the design of the older 3.25" was to fit a 400 grain bullet inside the neck. Is this true?

Boomy

Thanks, lighting fire is FUN!!!!!

I don't know anything at all about 450/400s, in fact I think the first one I ever saw in my entire life was with Sam the other day!

I know the first factory Hornady I have seen is what CCMDoc just sent down, some DGS, and I took a photo or two with the CEBs, and there is no comparisons. The Hornady DGS might as well be a round nose, I don't think it has even a 40% meplat. I don't know what use it will be. I will do terminals on these, maybe first of the week! Have to get the range sorted out, it's a damned mess, before I do anymore test work of any sort. The mess is just too distracting to me! Obsessive Compulsive about some things!

M

Boomstick,

You may be right because those old black powder shells needed a card wad and sometimes a jute wad under the bullet to protect the base of the lead or paper patch lead bullet. A 400 grain grease groove bullet is a long thing.

Michael, CCMDOCs gun is a 450-400 3 inch and mine is a 450-400 3 1/4 inch. Ballistics are about the same in both.

Sam

Sam

CCMDoc sent these, he does good work as well! But look at those Hornady DGS, not much of a meplat! I have not had time to stamp them yet, but I don't see much of a reason to even have that and call it a FN.

Michael,

I actually found some factory 375 solids in my gun room to shoot for velocity and noticed that they had a very similar nose shape to those Hornaday. I'm like you its just a RN and I doubt they will go over 36 inches and probably be sideways at the end.

They look like the flat is formed by the ejector pin when knocking them out of the forming die.

Sam

Sam

They look pretty damned useless to me. I promise to get a stamp on that shortly and see.

I could be wrong, but I don't think they will make 36 inches---I say 28 and off they go.

M