EZ

No, all test work has to be done from solid rest on the bench off the shoulder, NO LEAD SLED. I HATE LEAD SLEDS...... Some of my buds got worried I was going to knock my eyes out or something, so I got a lead sled! AWFUL CRAP----HATE THEM. Then someone later got a newer updated version, it's somewhere on the range, never been taken out of the box, that was a couple of years ago.

I use a PAST Pad however for all shooting.

M

I'm curious about the tipless 300 grain 458 raptor shot both ways as a solid and hollow point for the 45-70 and 458 Socom.
The 458 Win Mag just got more interesting too.
Glad to hear of AWESOME accuracy too.
A 45-70 shooting 300 grain Raptors @ 2,200 would be quite the combo and should sheer at nominal 45-70 distances. How fast can the Lott throw these bullets? Varnmit hunting with the Lott I guess they will look like the original 40 grain 22 Raptor but scaled up.

Michael

I've been holding my breath waiting for news on the NIKON, and it sounds like its hanging in there.

For the money, its seems to be very good value, can you tell me again what model it is, I think I might go buy one.

Reg S&F

Hey Shorts!

Nikons, So far so good. Ken and I were in a conversation recently about this. I listed all the Leupolds I had busted over the last few years, he sent those to a friend of his at Leupold, a tech guy. They believe it's the recoil impulse or the quickness of the recoil and they believe the 50 B&M is far more than the king of Recoil Impulse, 458 Lott. Nikon was mentioned to this tech guy, and he said that Nikon glued their internals. He stated that Leupold DID NOT do that, as Leupold customers expected Leupold to be able to "Customize" the scopes when needed or desired. While he did not come out and state flatly that gluing was crappy, the words were chosen to lean in that direction. Me? I said pour more damned glue to it, sick of them breaking. If some sort of glue does the trick- By God add some more I say!

I am taking a 9.3 B&M to South Africa in a few weeks to play with, along with 210 Raptors. Have one of those 2X8 Nikons on it, with those circles. So today, 50 yds, I shot POI with the cross hairs, then POI with the three top circles to see where they hit. Knowing BC on the bullet, I should be able to calculate the hold on those circles. Kinda Neat! Clear as can be.

The one that is doing so well on the big bores is the Nikon 1x4 African Monarch. Not the 30mm tube, but the 1" tube. Ordered another one today $279.00 from Midway, along with another 2X8 Monarch with those circles! HEH HEH..... Well, who knows, they might not have put enough glue on it and I am taking a 500 MDM too! So always have a spare, or two! HEH..............

This will put me with 3 1x4s now to see if I can break them!

Michael

Hmmm. Glue.
Well, whatever it is, it's nice to hear that they are holding up under heavy shooting schedules.

One note on your 500MDM, don't overlook the Nikon Slughunter with 5" eye-relief. It goes down to 1.65 power for up-close and has 5-power for reaching out to whatever you call far.

The Nikon 2-8 is great and is what we have on our 416Rigbys. But the eye-relief is "only" 4.0" down to 3.8" at 8 power. (That is still more eye-relief than most widely praised scopes at their high-power setting.) It is good on the Rigby for people with good shooting posture. Never had a problem, but someone shooting one of our rifles a couple of years ago mildly cut a tick mark over an eyebrow (that disappeared after a few days). I think that the NIkon Slughunter would have prevented that.

Ok So heres another option for deflection testing, From the looks you are useing 1x2 or somthing simliar in pine..correct me if I am wrong,
what about using live limbs from a pine, with the smaller limbs as well. This would not gonna be a test for the larger bores but a for the medium levergun gun velocity calibers or the super shorts. Maybe intersting to see if the "green wood" has a greater affect.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
B&M???
large order of 9.3 210 Raptors I need for ammo and this upcoming trip, and the 308 100 gr Raptor order all coming in this week.

Michael

Michael,

Have the "short" tips for the 9.3 arrived? How do they work?

IBT

On the .458 Raptors, I am looking forward to testing them in my Browning BLR in.450 Marlin. The throat gets lengthened this coming week and the magazines allow 2.90 OAL! (with my mods).
Since ballistic coefficient has held the performance of the .458 back severely, the new tips should show a significant increase in down range capability.
Max

I don't think for most 45/70s the 300 Raptor is going to be the solution. The Raptors are more or less developed for the bigger capacity bolt gun cartridges in .458 as a tipped alternative for less than the "Heavies". Thin skinned critters. I think they are going to be way too long for 2 inch .458 cases. The better alternative for those are the already developed BBW#13 NonCons, designed for the lever guns, short nose projections to feed and function proper. Single shot 45/70s--maybe a different story.

Not sure, until I get them in hands this week and start work with them. We will see.

I will also be doing terminals, as I am very interested in the big bore Raptors for thin skinned dangerous game, lion, leopard, bears--Although I WILL NOT be hunting leopard again as long as I live on the earth. Bears--Oh yes! Lions, if opportunity arises maybe. Bears, for damn sure! With penetration the Raptors will be DEVASTATING on these species, the combination of velocity--2650 fps with a 458 B&M in 18 inches of barrel--would be the same in 458 Winchester too, as long as we have penetration these will turn thin skinned inside out and then some. We know how well a BBW#13 NonCon likes velocity! In both massive trauma transfer and in penetration! Yes!

We will find out this week!

Michael

I spent a good portion of yesterday working with 2 bullets, 3 rifles! Small bores give me fits here, you know I don't remember how to shoot them to start with, testing those tiny bores is a lot different than big bores. So I don't shoot the little guns as well, give me fits sometimes. Also, with some of those little skinny barrels on those things, I am just not patient enough to wait for cooling periods!

Anyway, I received some .257 70 gr ESP Raptors, have a 25WSSM myself, and one of the guys that works for the company has one as well that he left with me to sort out for him. It needed some help, it was rough as hell, one of the FW Win M70s. You know these WSSMs are a bitch to work with too. I like the 25 and the 223, they have great potential, but getting a good one in those is sorta hard to come by. I have one each, and the best thing you can do with the rest of them is make B&M Super Shorts out of them! They are excellent for that!

So I struggled with the 70 ESP Raptor in the 25 WSSMs yesterday. Great load, not super fast, 46/IMR 4350 and the 70 ran it around 3175 fps in the 22 inch guns. Both Plain NonCon, and the ones with the I Tips were one hole at 50 if I could do my part, in both guns. Mine is a stainless Ultimate. It is a good one, not finicky and actually shoots pretty good. The solid end of this Raptor has to be seated too deep in my 25 WSSM and accuracy is awful to say the least. I don't know if anyone else has tried the solid in other cartridges. I have a 25/06 but have not had it out in ??? well, many years now! Don't really want to mess with it either. But, plain NonCon, or with it's supplied I-Tips, it's great. I loaded 50 of them this morning complete with tips for the fellow that works for me in NC--he will use them this year. I plan to test them tomorrow, terminals.


Things get easier for me as caliber goes up. New .338 caliber 200 gr ESP Raptors! And they shoot! NonCon, D-Tips, or solids, all in a hole at 50. Easy. I shot quite a few yesterday in my 22 inch 338 WSM. Running a bit too hot but getting 2850 fps in my 22 inch barrel. Dropping the load by a grain to bring pressures down some.

I also hope to be testing these tomorrow terminals, and BC. Also need to shoot a few in the 338 RUM as well.




Michael

I leave you today with one last thing to ponder upon. Doing the Stick test the other day, I checked the backboard retaining wall to see if blades from the BBW#13 NonCons were hitting it. They were, most cases going through the first wall of 3/4 Inch plywood. This is after shearing and plowing a open path through the 3 sticks, 10 feet in front.

I also noticed a splinter of wood from some of the sticks has also impelled itself into the 3/4 inch plywood! That just seemed incredible to me, I had to photograph that. A piece or splinter of wood from the sticks was dead stuck in the plywood wall!!!! That has to take some extreme force I would think? Now I am not talking about a heavy piece or chunk of wood, a small splinter of wood! Take a look!




I suppose I lead a sheltered life of sorts, I don't get out much you know, so this just really amazed me! HEH HEH...............

Later
Michael

Hi guys, great tests & great results...I'm listening & learning frm all the pro's..

Micheal/Boomstik,I am not a ballistician, but regarding these brass/copper bullets,especially in bigbores, & as they are somewhat harder than normal guilding-metal bullets, will this affect barrel-life much/at all ?..&,is the drive-band-concept on some high velocity mono's not supposed to neutralize this 'xtra' wear greatly ?..a w a presure ?..that's my impression, but it may be wrong ?


Furthermore,& more important,these mono-bullets are usually also driven at some/much higher speeds/velocities wth more powder & magnum-primers,if I understand correctly ?..Q then is, will/may these latter factors, to some or other extent, also have a neg effect on barrel-life ?..ie, more slow burning powder plus magnum primer = much hotter flame on throat/lands ?
& if so,seems tht accelrted wear is part of the price to pay then ?

Just my 2 cents..just wondering, logically..any opinions ?

ap

The CEB bullets are made of 360 brass which is very similar to gilding metal. Hardness is about the same and the 360 has more lead in it to improve machining properties. Because of the added lead I think the bullets would have more lubing quailties and less stress when engraving the rifling.

What Sam said
Also good reading is "Double rifle bullet of the future" in the double gun board.

Damn! Bought some of the 225gr .338 Raptors and now find out there are 200gr Raptors. Wanted these for my .338 WSM. Well, guess I'll just have to dig into the wallet again.

As to the .458 Raptors, I've already got 300gr bullets up to almost 2500 fps in my Browning .450 Marlin. I think I will be able to get it higher...at least the pressures are under 60k.

P242, congrats on such good taste in bullets. The 200 grain 338 Raptor is just so pretty a bullet. You hold it and go damn that is pretty. CEB makes awesome bullets. Unless you have a 338 Rum or 338 Lapua with a fast twist may I suggest the 175 or 200 grain 338. The Raptors love velocity and penetrate quite well so not too much weight needed.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

I also hope to be testing these tomorrow terminals, and BC. Also need to shoot a few in the 338 RUM as well.




Michael

I notice that you are seating these bullets beyond the first band and first trough. I assume that the Raptor has a full .338" first band, so does that mean that you have long, smoothbored throats, or what?

and yes, we have an inherent interest in the .338" tests. Let the games begin, again.
And yes, we will be watching the BC results.
CEB rates the 200 grain at .470. That is good enough for me to have it replace the TTSX with its .514 BC.

Also, could you list your COL lengths and the bullet length with the tips so that those of us following can get a full picture of what is involved?

Terminal Performance has turned 200,000 views! That's a lot of lurkers and posters.

PS: On my computer screen those Raptors look like 1.9" with their tips, or possibly 1.85". That would produce a 1.02 or 1.11 stability factor, positive, but probably too marginal for hunting use.

Hopefully, those tipped bullets are shorter than 1.9", or 1.85".

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
PS: On my computer screen those Raptors look like 1.9" with their tips, or possibly 1.85". That would produce a 1.02 or 1.11 stability factor, positive, but probably too marginal for hunting use.

Hopefully, those tipped bullets are shorter than 1.9", or 1.85".

I think Michael's terminals (penetration box) will answer the stability question. That said, we do need better specifics regarding the bullet beyond weight.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
PS: On my computer screen those Raptors look like 1.9" with their tips, or possibly 1.85". That would produce a 1.02 or 1.11 stability factor, positive, but probably too marginal for hunting use.

Hopefully, those tipped bullets are shorter than 1.9", or 1.85".

I think Michael's terminals (penetration box) will answer the stability question. That said, we do need better specifics regarding the bullet beyond weight.

Actually, the terminals on the raptor will be fine. Once the tip and petals blow off the core will be as stable than the solids.

The issue with stability concerns the flight, the ability to go to 'sleep', and the inherent stability when meeting something like a single blade of grass, or leaf, that shouldn't have the weight to upset the bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
PS: On my computer screen those Raptors look like 1.9" with their tips, or possibly 1.85". That would produce a 1.02 or 1.11 stability factor, positive, but probably too marginal for hunting use.

Hopefully, those tipped bullets are shorter than 1.9", or 1.85".

I think Michael's terminals (penetration box) will answer the stability question. That said, we do need better specifics regarding the bullet beyond weight.

Actually, the terminals on the raptor will be fine. Once the tip and petals blow off the core will be as stable than the solids.

The issue with stability concerns the flight, the ability to go to 'sleep', and the inherent stability when meeting something like a single blade of grass, or leaf, that shouldn't have the weight to upset the bullet.

I see your point...perhaps Dan and his guy's can provide insight into the long range capabilities of this particular bullet.

416 Tarzan. What distances are you hunting? Past 600 yards I think the Match Tactical Hunter series they have are tops. The 175 grain 338s can get the job done well and faster than the heavier ones.

I picked up some of the CEB 225's sleek 'banana peels' for testing. also for my wife's 270. Haven't used them hunting.

My rifle hunting has all been limited to Africa where I've never had to shoot anything over 400 yards, and the animals taken between 300-400 are only 2% of harvest (4 out of 200). (Have taken a deer by bow in Calif 25 years ago, and went out "looking at does" with my wife two years ago in Calif., licenses in hand but nothing to shoot at.) Practically speaking, the lion's share is under 200 yards, though a significant number has been 200-300 yards (25+% ?). So I want my rifles to be practical out to 400, and 300 yards is the 98% watershed.

The 175 338s at a higher velocity seems a good option out to 400 yards

I think I need to make a point about something I believe is very important concerning the BBW#13 NonCons. So Listen up!

Back when some of the very first BWB#13 NonCons were run, some of the HP Cavities were too SMALL. These included 9.3 (.366), .375, .409, .416, .458. It took some low velocity work before this was discovered. In particular one day with Sam and the .409s, and later with 9.3s. Then some low velocity work was done on the 458s. Serious discussions between Dan and I to figure out what, why, how. Dan came up with a formula that took the cavity as far to the edge of the meplat as possible, in all these calibers, leaving the same wall thickness in all of them, and it worked in each. Therefore larger cavities from that point on in those calibers. Formula was taken to all calibers from there, including the Raptors.

That did leave some of the SMALL CAVITY bullets around, I had most of them, and I handed them out, some bought them, Dan had some, I got a lot from his stash and we used them to work up loads, for samples, for this and that. THEY WERE NOT EVER MEANT TO GO TO THE FIELD. So if there are any out there, and I did not mention this, or from Dan, and he did not mention--Then DO NOT USE THESE IN THE FIELD--a very strong probability they may not shear proper depending on impact velocity and it has to be high. Don't use any of the OLD small cavity bullets in the field at all! If you have them, shoot them up for load data. Load data between small/large cavity won't be any different, nor POI for that matter.

Do remember the BBW#13 NonCon is a Dangerous Game Bullet--It's design is for close range, 50 yds and in. It does not have much of a BC, it looses velocity QUICKLY. All of them have a Low Velocity Shear, varies with remaining solid shank that helps push the blades; Example, a 458 450 gr NonCon has a lower velocity shear 1550 or so than a 370 gr or 295 gr .458 NonCon that is around 1700 fps low end velocity shear! With low BCs, and depending on your starting velocity, you can get to this very quickly! Keep Your Eye on this when in the field and taking that shot at 150 yds on that big buffalo!!!!

The addition of the Tips will assist you in such matters. There is no reason in the world that you should not have a tip in that first round that will be in the chamber when you get out of the vehicle and take to the bush! Put that hi BC tip in, it will keep your velocity higher for that just in case shot outside of normal DG Ranges! Every reason in the world to have the first round tipped, and no good reason not to have it tipped. Tips assist in shear, add BC. Use them. If not, keep your ranges to low end shear of your bullet and not beyond. If you don't get shear, it will act as if it's solid--It does not know better, it does not act like a North Fork CPS-Cup Point. I actually think it produces less trauma than a BBW#13 Solid if it does not shear.

Either Keep your ranges to DG Ranges, or add that first round with a tip! End Of Story!

I want to know what low end shear of each of the NonCons are, some I do, most I don't. I will continue to work on it as I can, but that is a time consuming job to get it right, or even close. It might take several tests with each bullet to find that out, and I don't always have time for each and every one of them. Consider 1700 FPS as the low end shear velocity on average of all of them--Until I know better. To give a SAFE MARGIN-You might want to consider 1800 fps impacts! Add one of the appropriate tips, and ranges can be extended.

To get superior performance in the field, sometimes you have to work at it just a little! So do your part, I am trying to do mine!

Just a heads up, and a reminder is all!

Michael

quote:

The 175 338s

The lightest bullet they have in 338 is the .227 and I already have them. I would prefer the raptor. The 'banana bullets' are very long, but they do not have a final penetrating core like the Raptor. If I've read the literature correctly, they sliver into 3 banana peels that knife and slide through an animal. I prefer having a solid core that penetrates straight with dangerous game around.

Tanz

Question about seating depths. Yes, in the 338 WSM I seated until I could load the cartridge into the magazine with tip added, and no more. It works but was a little longer than normal for that magazine at 3.01 COL.

The 338 Ultra loaded so that tips would fit in the 3.60 magazine of the Winchester. The NonCon no tip I loaded out some to 3.395 and the Solid a tiny bit longer to 3.412.

All worked perfectly in the rifles. I will prefer the 200 ESP Raptor in .338 over the 225 Raptor. Both worked well, I FELT like there was a very slight instability in the 225 NonCon shot both in 338WSM and 338Ultra during the last test, TERMINALS--Not flying. At 50 yds regardless how they were loaded they were all in a hole and showed no instability. But during terminals with just the NonCon no Tips they got a little sideways at the end of penetration. Not with the tips and not with the solid 225s. The solid with 67% meplat would self stabilize anyway. It did.

I like the 200 Raptor best, it still outperforms anything in and above it's class by large margins.

Today;

All the MTH bullets have a base. I would ask the depth of the hole to determine the left over shank.

How long is the .338" Raptor bullet with the tip inserted?

Tanz

Not in that area right now, will get that for you. Not sure?
M

Those 338 200s are shining!
They should be the do all 338 bullet for above 06 based cart capacity.
I'll have to go and find the penetration of all the other 338s to compare unless you have it handy. Curious to see how the 175s compare.

Well that is a decent comparison. I would guess that the 175 grain 338 raptor would penetrate the same as the 225 tsx but do more damage. The solid end of the 338 200 grain raptor should be good for Texas heart shots on buffalo.

quote:

The solid end of the 338 200 grain raptor should be good for Texas heart shots on buffalo.

Boomstick, I love your enthusiasm, but a person plays for keeps with mr. mbogo. Just last Oct my son and I walked 500 paces after a broadside-shot buffalo with clean, pink frothy spoor from what we learned was the entrance. (It was 400 yards GPS from the shot, so the buff probably ran a curving 400 yards from the 110 yard point of impact.) The last 200 yards of our walk had us on our toes, visibility pretty tight, only to find him dead. But we couldn't know that going in. I still put a second, raking shot in him. Neither TSX (.416 350 gn 2800fps muzzle) exited from mr. mbogo.

How is this relevant?
The 200 grain Raptor showed a 20" penetration with the core. That is good and probably translates to exits on any broadside shot and pentration past the vitals on any front-angled shot. So yes, it will reliably and confidently do the job on mr. mbogo. And I think that I might trust this bullet 3/4 away, coming through the stomach and lungs toward the heart and opposite front shoulder-arm (collar-bone? I don't know my anatomy bone names). 30"-35" of buffalo penetration should allow this. But a solid would be better, and required, if the angle was over 45* from broadside.

Optimistically translating the 20" test media into 40" of buffalo still leaves something to be desired when coming from the rear. You might get lucky, you might not. For a rear-end shot we need a solid or maybe a cup-point. Buffalo are just mini-dinosaur cattle, but they can be mean and tough.

If he's feeding away from you and only presenting a 3/4 away, then one could slip a solid in for the first shot. I've never done that, because a little patience usually results in a better angle and better shot. That is also where a little flatness is desired. Sometimes that patience also results in an extra 50 or 100 yards. Michael recently commented on the danger of such a situation with non-cons, where the stretching distance will lower the impact speed of some larger calibre loads. 200 yards may be out of range for something with a BC of .13-.17.

quote:

Michael recently commented on the danger of such a situation with non-cons, where the stretching distance will lower the impact speed of some larger calibre loads. 200 yards may be out of range for something with a BC of .13-.17.

EXACTLY My Point! Out of range to work as designed. Double the BC with one of the tips up front to keep that IMPACT VELOCITY within range of SHEAR.

As for the Tips, while flat shooting is of import, to me it's not nearly as important as KEEPING IMPACT VELOCITY UP.

With a NonCon you need to keep impact velocity into Shear Range, or they are a solid with no shear. Keep the Design Parameters in mind.

M

I forget things! Man, if I did not keep good data records, I would be lost. It was January of 2010 when we did all the 338 Terminals, and I have long forgotten the penetration and performance of those 338 bullets, as compared with the work we have done on the two new Raptors--225 and 200. So I went back, split off the data for 338 Ultra, 338 Win, and 338 WSM that I have on record and made jpgs of them and here they are below, for reference.

Wow! Those 225 grain 338s know how to party with the RUM getting about TWICE the penetration as the best of the rest. Has any soft gone that deep before? Any solid round nose?