The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Terminal Bullet PerformanceGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
Hugh, Here is what I could find.
| |||
|
One of Us |
465HH Those were some .500s I had done in 2005 for the prototype 50s. The nose was a Woodleigh Profile, but of course not woodleighs, but Lehigh. Now, I actually watched some of these turn. Shot an eland up the rear, it turned up and out the top of the back, hit a big tree limb above the eland, knocked the bark off and don't know where it went from there. Watched another turn in a second eland and exit in the entirely wrong area. They were so bad, I was afraid they would turn into boomerangs and come back to me! HEH HEH. I have never used a Woodleigh in the field. I have used the old barnes round nose, and penetration has always been limited, but was enough to do the job. And I never really done much digging of those, although on a few occasions I had some suspicions. These are the things that have brought me to where we are right now, at least seeing that was believing. Those same bullet also twist, turn, flip and veer in the test medium same as they do in animal tissue. There are other stories that involve woodleighs direct, from some of the guys right here as well. Many others have some suspicions as well. I wonder myself if all the elephants that are head shot and run away to never be recovered, how do we really know that chap actually missed??? I know damn well there are a hell of a lot of piss poor shots made while in the field, but there are a lot of elephants that just run off to never be recovered--Sometimes I wonder if the guy really missed, or has something else occurred? We will never know for sure, and no one can say one way or the other can they? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
One of Us |
Here's one to consider: Both the veering and the penetration might have been caused by the 62% meplat. The question to test is how far did a true 66% meplat + rounding penetrate in comparison to the 66% sharp edge? And from the other direction, did a sharp edge 62% not penetrate well like the 62% round edge FN did? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Tanz The veering was for sure because of the 62% meplat--no doubting that. But we have done it over and over here, that sharp edge meplat will NOT penetrate as deep as one with a nice rounded edge, or proper radius. I had samples of the CEB that the edge had not been rounded quite enough, or radius was not right, so we had to work to get to that point. The edge has to be broken on these to get the best penetration. Sharp does not work, or at least not as good. Take a look at the North Forks and the CEBs--Nice Radius on both! Not sharp! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
One of Us |
How does sharp edges affect the "wound channel" _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| One of Us |
I had some ASquare mono-solids in 338 in the 80s that got lost somewhere and were never even used or tried. The mystery isn't too great in my eyes. Look at them. They look like zero meplat, 0%. They are 100% round-edge. Barnes isn't that stupid this time around, and their prototype pictures have more of the 'U' shape associated associated with steel-jacketed, but don't appear to reach even that standard. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
|
One of Us |
I'm probably late to the party on this one, but I would guess that the rounded edge creates less resistance compared to the sharp edge. Still the sharp edge in that earlier test did pretty doggone well! A little better than I might have expected, in fact.  _________________________ Glenn | |||
|
| One of Us |
You offered SD as an explaination as to why there was a difference in penetration between two 9.3 bullets that do not meet your criteria for "all other things being equal". Why offer SD as an explaination for a compareson that does not meet your criteria of "all other things being equal"? | |||
|
| One of Us |
SD is a function of bullet weight and diameter. Length doesn't come into the equation to determine momentum and it is not listed in your list of six. That is why I have said that I doubted that a long mono bullet of the same weight as a shorter lead/steel composition solid woud penetrate better. 465H&H 465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
 BARNEShttp://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| one of us |
Did I mention that I called Ty at barnes too, at urging from "all y'all?" I asked what happened to the flat nose solids. There was a pause ... inaudible sigh? ... then a well practiced reply that they will still be available from the website, but won't be stocked in the stocking stores and catalog retailers of the past. Sigh. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Doc RIP No, did not mention it, last we heard on that you were going to call! From the beginning of this thing I had heard they will sell out the remaining stock of FN Banded, and once gone, the end. I had heard they have about a years supply in stock. Yep, I reckon they move all of those bullets from their website, all the time making the new RN to put in the market. They basically did the exact same thing when they converted to the FN some years ago. Only the FN was available in the market place, RN available on their website. My bet, once the remaining stock is gone, bye bye FN Banded! Oh well, they are easy replaced. They just happen to be "Convenient" when buying stock from Midway, Graf, MidSouth or whoever is all. What would happen if CEB was available from Midway? Piss on Barnes! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Sam; I apologize for my poorly worded question. I did recall that the rounded edge penetrated better. What I meant was, if the cutting effect was a significant factor, we would expect a sharp edge on the meplat to give greater penetration. But since a rounded edge does give better penetration then there must be some other factors at work rather than the cutting effect. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hughman, When I first started making bullets for Michael to test I made them with sharp edges thinking this would be better. It just stands to reason that the sharp edge would have a cutting effect. My first 577 bullets had big meplats and razor edges. These bullets didn't do much better than any other bullet. When we got the meplat at 68% and rounded the edge the bullets started performing much better. After seeing many tests with many different bullet nose profiles there is a big difference in sharp edge verses rounded edge. I still wonder if the nose of the bullet is really touching the media or is it a shock wave in front of the bullet. One thing I have seen in the tests we have done is that the ogive of the bullet isn't touching anything while penetrating. Sam | |||
|
| One of Us |
srose, Since your bullets have more penetration than would ever be needed in game, giving up a little penetration to get a better cutting affect from the sharp edged bullet may be a worth while trade off. 465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
Here's where I differ. I don't see how there *couldn't* be some contact with the medium. Otherwise I don't see how you could get deformation, petal shearing, expansion, etc. I could well understand that length and/or ogive may not directly factor into the penetration process (except possibly for stability) but I have to see surface area as being of prime importance to penetration. The less surface area the better, to a point. (No pun intended.) That's why bullets with about 65 percent meplat perform so well. (Yeah, I've been paying attention.) If I'm wrong, then I need to delete my computer programs, leave the board, and go back to playing sudoku like a good retiree.  _________________________ Glenn | |||
|
| One of Us |
465H&H, You are right and this is one reason we made the meplat 70% on the double rifle bullets. Bigger meplat means more energy to the target. Sam | |||
|
| One of Us |
Sam does the sharp edges have any effect on wound channel size? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| one of us |
465H&H, I dunno about those nose effects. Nor the side pressure on the shaft of the bullet, as even bone expands to some degree as the bullet passes through. Some bone wound permanent cavity diameters are smaller than bullet diameter. I do know that shooting round nose solid bullets into a stack of dry plywood will allow them to stay straight, and surpass a flat nose solid in penetration. Less resistance to the round nose. Equal side pressure from the minimally cavitating plywood all around the shank of the bullet may keep it going straight. Steering from the rear instead of the nose. Same may happen in some elephant skull situations. I am all for the BBW 13-degree nose (26-degree cone truncated) with meplat no bigger than 67% after the radius of the edge on the meplat. It gives a best balance for stabilization and feeding. 1. Adequate meplat for shoulder stabilization (nose steering), empirically proven at MIB. 2. And it moves the center of gravity forward (dart stabilization) versus the old, base-heavier, simple 7-degree per side truncated cone, with no parallel-sided nose portion. 3. Radiused meplat edge is a better feeder in a bolt action, as is a smaller meplat, though doesn't matter in a double or single-shot. I do not believe much in the cutting edge effect of the meplat. The pressure in front of the bullet is displacing and tearing the tissue more than it is being "cut." A 100% meplat (cylinder) may smack harder, but it will penetrate less in most situations due to the greater resistance, and trauma and energy dump it causes. | |||
|
| One of Us |
You know I've never looked to see if there was much difference in wound channel. We were trying to get penetration in a straight line. We did see more damage with larger nose shape. I guess you have given us something else to test. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Aha! So it's really come back to the concept I was talking about, although I doubt whether I'll get a reply. After all, I'm just an overeducated, underachieving retiree on a pension with too much time on my hands. Regardless of the descriptive verbs we use, so it's pressure we see in the penetration process! What is pressure? A unit of force per surface area. What physical quantity is related to force? Momentum. How? Momentum is force multiplied by a unit of time. And what is momentum density? A unit of force divided by a unit of area times time. In other words, a unit of pressure times a unit of time. OK, so now I'm off to play fucking sudoku! _________________________ Glenn | |||
|
| One of Us |
Sam and I discovered radius late in the game. Some of the test bullets Sam made had some tremendous amounts of damage to the medium. Many of them with sharp edges. But overall I have not noticed a big difference in the sharp and the radius as far as damage to medium. With all the FN solids you get your most damage from 2-3 inches in to about 10-12 inches, then it settles in, and starts penetrating as the velocity is dumped. For sure the big difference between sharp and radius is overall penetration. Radius goes further every time. I also think that the radius is more consistent with straight line penetration as well. Of course we have to have 65% to 70% for optimum stabilization as well. Right now the CEBs are perfect in these regards, but it took a lot of work to get them there. But the Nose, meplat, and radius of the CEB are complete, etched in stone you might say. And carry over from caliber to caliber as well. Also take your North Fork FPS and look at the nice radius on those! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Question for Michael I've noticed that a lot of your testing is of .458 bullets at "Lott" velocities. Based upon your observations, which commercially available soft and solid (and which weight) would you use for buffalo?commercially available Thanks! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hey JohnDL I have used a few 458 bullets on buffalo. Soft Points--450 and 500 Swift A Frame, 500 Woodleigh Soft, 400 Swift A Frames (too Light). Today if I were using softs I would go with a North Fork 450 Bonded, 450 Swift or 500 Swift. Either in my 458 B&M, 458 Winchester or 458 Lott. All will do fine. 500 Woodleigh, keep the velocity to no more than 2250, better at 2200 fps. Solids--I had been using the Barnes Banded 450s and 500s. Since they are screwing us around and dropping the FN--I would use nothing but a North Fork or CEB. Both which are Commercially Available to you! As for softs (not so soft--Expanding/Shearing)--I would rather have the CEB NonCons also--Available to you also. Which I am sure if you have been following you already know this. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
One of Us |
For Buff...what about cup point Solids? Have an opinion on them? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Lane Yep, got an opinion on lot's of things! HEH... I like the "Expanding Cup Points" from North Fork for this work. In fact, love them and will be using them this year too. I had North Fork make a semi custom run of .500s 450 gr and 375 gr for my .500 caliber rifles. Both specified "Expanding" cup point---Not limited penetration Solids. Expanding Cup Points     Not as much expanding as I would like.    Nothing wrong with the "limited Penetration", but I like that expanding bullet. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Michael. Thanks. I take from this that regular NF CP's fired at Lott speeds are, in effect, solids, not softs?? If the CP's aren't going to open up, why not just use regular solids? | |||
|
| One of Us |
I see your point...or or lack there of  ...pun intended!!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
| One of Us |
John Some of the heavier CPS are designed as "limited Penetration". The cup point does in fact limit the penetration of the bullet, even though it's the same configuration. That cup inside adds extra surface area, like added meplat, without the width. Sorta like going from 70% meplat to a 90% meplat, but without the actual width in the bullet. Hence, penetration is less. So if for whatever reason you find yourself not wanting the penetration of the normal solid, you can use the cup. I fight with North Fork over this one somewhat, I would rather have the expanding version doing more damage paired up with the standard FPS Solid. Lane HEH......Good One! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
In regards to the cup point...I think YOU are on the right track Michael. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
| One of Us |
At my age and with the medication I take, I'm all about "limited penetration."
Mm-hmmmm.
And I would guess the trauma is somewhere midway between a FN and an expanding type. Interesting concept, I suppose. _________________________ Glenn | |||
|
| One of Us |
Can you show a pic of the nose/point of the "expanding cup point"? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Lane I assume one that has been expanded, and thanks, sometimes I can get off track!   Glenn Yes, trauma for a limited penetration CPS is some more than a solid, but not that of an expanding bullet. But not really close to most expanding. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
You just put that picture up on the last page  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
Speaking of big bores, there's an exciting new development in the Lever Action forum with regard to the .444 Marlin. Member flat top has apparently succeeded in launching 405 grain, .43" bullet with a MV of 2171 fps, and with no pressure issues. The performance of this should be practically the ballistic twin to the obsolete 11.2x72 Schuler formerly in the Mauser lineup. (The Schuler round itself is fairly similar to the .404 Jeffery.) http://forums.accuratereloadin...551081051#8551081051 _________________________ Glenn | |||
|
| One of Us |
Really...I would like to see and un-expanded one and side-by-side with an original cup point would be good. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
One of Us |
Lane I’ve gone back through my TBP Thread notes and photographs and do not find a “side-by-side” photograph of the two NF CPS bullets (expanding and non-expanding) so Michael will need to take the picture and post unless the NF guys can beat him to it. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
|
| One of Us |
Lane Will take some photos of those for you tomorrow! It's really very simple, just a little more depth is all that is required. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
No I don't check the screws on the rifles every time I go to the range!!!!!!! I probably should however! Big Bores are different from the small bore shooters! Things really do work loose! Two weeks ago, doing pressure traces with the 50 B&M. I notice shots going wild, hell I am at 25 yds doing the traces???? What the hell? Then I felt something sorta rattle? Gees, the stock is coming loose! Oh well, stop the work, go get a screw driver, tighten up the stock screws--and guess what, back to 1 hole groups again! Last week, more pressure traces with the lever guns! Pulling the rifle in tight against my shoulder, I can feel the stock give! It's loose! Finish the traces, bring it in. Start tightening screws, ALL OF THEM are loose! Sides, top, front bottom, stock, damned thing is falling apart on me! Today, doing more trace work with the 50 B&M Super Short. Notice groups going everywhere, again at 25 yds, god tell me I can shoot better than that? Stock is tight? Hmmmmm. Oh well, must be me! Finish the trace work, pick the rifle up, rattle rattle? Scope is loose? Wait, the levers are tight? The bases had worked loose--Both of them!!!! Yes, I locktite--the red stuff! Again today, sighting in working with the 500 MDM, doing 50 yd POI tests with different loads getting ready for June and buffalo! At the end, my scope had turned while shooting! Damn crooked ass cross hairs! Yep, I have one of those Wheeler torque screw drivers too! Leupold says 23 inch lbs (or something like that), I go 28 inch lbs! Still turned! Now I have gone to 30 inch lbs--Maybe it will hold! Big bores shoot'em loose! Just part of the game! Just rambling! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 ... 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 ... 304 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Terminal Bullet Performance
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
