Remember,

keep track of which barrel each bullet is fired from. One barrel has a perfectly good and properly squared crown and the other has a bit of "offset".

One question to be answered is whether this offset crown work contributes to additional yaw and tumbling.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Remember,

keep track of which barrel each bullet is fired from. One barrel has a perfectly good and properly squared crown and the other has a bit of "offset".

One question to be answered is whether this offset crown work contributes to additional yaw and tumbling.

Doc

Yep, I got it--In fact I unpacked the rifle this morning, and very very briefly looked at the offset crown and looks a bit like an egg. For sure will document and take a lot of time with it, and save the solids for all the terminals. I can do my sighting with the NonCons--since the NonCons don't shear anyway. Also will use a few more witness cards than normal too. It will be a good test I am sure.

I am very very tempted to put that rail to use that you sent down in that case!!!!! But would never do so! HEH----scope that bad boy up and get some real accuracy at 50! HEH HEH........

Michael

Michael,

Go ahead and scope it - I've been considering it anyway - then we'll really see what it can do. Take some photos with it mounted before taking your scope off so I can make a decision one way or the other.

CCMDoc,

You are mighty brave! Better hope Michael doesn't need a hammer when he's mounting that scope! As much as I hate to see a scope on a SXS double I do think it is OK when testing these guns and bullets. My eyes are going and so is my shoulder after all these tests. A scope will really help.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Michael,

Go ahead and scope it - I've been considering it anyway - then we'll really see what it can do. Take some photos with it mounted before taking your scope off so I can make a decision one way or the other.

Doc

Very Excellent---I will do so, I promise you, NO HAMMERs! HEH HEH. I also will take extreme care with it. Photos for sure. Probably work on that in the morning.

Hey, by the way, how far does this one sling brass?

Sam, I only take hammers to my stuff, or maybe yours! HEH.......


Michael

Michael,

Sorry I had to!

Remember putting a scope on a double may change regulation. We might need to shoot a few with irons first before mounting the scope. This will at least let us know how much difference there will be.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

Sorry I had to!

Remember putting a scope on a double may change regulation. We might need to shoot a few with irons first before mounting the scope. This will at least let us know how much difference there will be.

Sam

I don't have but a few to begin with!!!! Not enough to do both! When you come this week bring the dies and CCMDoc will give us the load! Then we shoot his rifle until it has no rifling left! HEH HEH....Poor Paul, he just did not realize! LOL......

Michael

Hey I wore out CrossL rifle and sent it to him! I can wear out a double too, just take twice as long to do it!



M

Michael,

My 450-400 is a different cartridge than CCMDoc's. My dies won't work.

Mine is bigger and longer.

Sam

Well Doc is going have to get off his duff and either send the dies, or load up more, or I can get a set of dies from Midway quickly! Either way, someone decide! If I don't hear anything in 30 minutes I am ordering a set from Midway!
M

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

Mine is bigger and longer.

Sam

Ohh noo... Not again. I fear what Doc M will come up with now...

I have only another 20 Hornady cases but can load up what I have with whatever CEBs I have left since it might be useless to use the DGX/DGS.

Let me know what you want me to do and please stop your whining

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Hey I wore out CrossL rifle and sent it to him! I can wear out a double too, just take twice as long to do it!



M

HEY you cant steal all the credit, I am a COWBOY I can break ANYTHING.
this might be a record though.



SSR

Michael might not need a hammer. Somehow I doubt he'll be able to stay away from one of those
SON-OF-A-BITCH tools

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Michael might not need a hammer. Somehow I doubt he'll be able to stay away from one of those
SON-OF-A-BITCH tools

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
I have only another 20 Hornady cases but can load up what I have with whatever CEBs I have left since it might be useless to use the DGX/DGS.

Let me know what you want me to do and please stop your whining

Doc

Look here, I think I will just quickly get a set of dies and shell holder from Midway--Will have it by Monday, tuesday latest, this will work into the test schedule very well, I have a few hundred .409s I can burn so that is not an issue. If you don't mind giving me the exact load you are using and if you don't mind me loading for your rifle, then I would just as soon do it that way, no fuss with sending and shipping and waiting and so forth! Would like to expedite this project. If and ONLY if, that is suitable with you?????

Michael



Now CrossL, I had to have done some wear and tear on that poor rifle of yours! HEH HEH

No worries however we will sort it out!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Michael might not need a hammer. Somehow I doubt he'll be able to stay away from one of those
SON-OF-A-BITCH tools

I have not seen too many things I cannot destroy with a hammer, vise grips, and a big screwdriver! Of course I love a moto tool!

M

Michael

why go to the 50 B&M instead of the 458?

Ya got me hooked on them now but you seem insistent on the 50.

I have read your hunt reports-do you see a definative difference between ths 458 and the 50?

SSR

quote:

On a High Note the .409 400 gr CEB BBW#13 Solid did just what all the #13 solids do---Penetrate deep and straight, these are totally boring to test!

Easy to predict too. My half-assed little formula says 68 inches in your medium.
Well, I guess one good thing about boring regularity is that it generally means reliability! And reliability is one thing you're looking for in this study!

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Michael

why go to the 50 B&M instead of the 458?

Ya got me hooked on them now but you seem insistent on the 50.

I have read your hunt reports-do you see a definative difference between ths 458 and the 50?

SSR

CrossL

It's really a hard choice. In many ways I do like the 50 B&M better for some things. I have used it a hell of a lot, and it's always the hammer. What it lacks in velocity over say 458 Lott--it makes up in diameter for sure. Capable of the CEB #13s 500 gr at 2150--460 CEB NonCon at over 2250 fps, I believe it is getting even better with that combo. Now, the 450 North Fork FPS and CPS combo at over 2300 fps is really enhancing the 50 B&M and it's 18 inch barrel, and 38 inches OAL.

I have used my 458 B&M the least I guess in the field, it did a fine job on buffalo in Australia, just could not ask for better. But I have done a hell of a lot of field work with 458 Winchester and 458 Lott too, so I am very familiar with 458. The .500s had more to prove--to me, and getting proper bullets for what I needed to do with .500 caliber, which required lot's of field work to go with the test work, so I have worked more with .500 over the last few years.

But nearly all this can also be done in the 18 Inch 458 B&M also--with the exception of diameter. Maybe more bullet choices and more cheaper bullets available in 458. But I have pushed .500 caliber now that we have some extreme bullets available, and coming is a 450 gr North Fork SS Bonded Premium! For serious go to work in the field bullets, everything is there for .500 for sure. I like both--but if I had only one to go to the field I suppose it would be the 50. I would not be under gunned either with the 458 B&M and both rifles are the same size!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Michael might not need a hammer. Somehow I doubt he'll be able to stay away from one of those
SON-OF-A-BITCH tools

I have not seen too many things I cannot destroy with a hammer, vise grips, and a big screwdriver! Of course I love a moto tool!

M

Easier to just toss in here and save the elbow grease ...

OH man--where can I get one of those J?

HEH HEH........Would be bad, get pissed of with something that did not work, toss it in the grinder!!!!!!!

YEP, that's me!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
I have only another 20 Hornady cases but can load up what I have with whatever CEBs I have left since it might be useless to use the DGX/DGS.

Let me know what you want me to do and please stop your whining

OK Doc, I did not have time to wait on permission, I have dies ordered and on the way! I will have them before I run out of the 20 you sent! So might as well spill that load data cause it's coming! HEH HEH.....you know, have to expedite these things! I suppose you are in surgery or something, so no worries, I took care of it!

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
OK Doc, I did not have time to wait on permission, I have dies ordered and on the way! I will have them before I run out of the 20 you sent! So might as well spill that load data cause it's coming! HEH HEH.....you know, have to expedite these things! I suppose you are in surgery or something, so no worries, I took care of it!

M

Sorry about that.

Sure, have at it and I will send you the load data later when I get home.

Thanks,

Paul

Paul

HEH HEH,......No sorry needed at all. This will just give us plenty to work with, test accuracy and stability without having to be so conservative. Just email the data will be fine. We will be in good shape with that. Hope I am not taking too many liberties!

Michael

Well guys, I am overworked, and have too much test work to get done and getting behind every day! So I decided that I must hire a new Lab Tech to assist me in these endeavors. So let me introduce you to my new "Lab Assistant" Mercedes Dakota!

About damn time you got someone who actually knew what they were doing.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
About damn time you got someone who actually knew what they were doing.

Hey Michael458,

Didn't you get a new toy with which to play?

I believe that you are beginning to see the light and will soon be a convert to the "truth" of the double rifle.

Cast out those evil short-barreled Winchesters!

CCMDoc

Why yes, in fact just this week I received a new test rifle in which I might be able to learn more about those cussed double barrel things ya'll play with! Hard enough getting one barrel to shoot, much less two!

Light? Sometimes when I drink too much sake the light gets too bright, have to close my eyes then! HE HEh...........

Well, anyway, I have done some enhancements to the sight system for the test work part of this. I tell you I had to mix up a whole lot of that JB Weld to get this thing put on this rifle, stuff just squirts out everywhere in the process. I still may have to get out a roll of that duct tape to hold the scope in place??? Not sure yet, will see if the JB Weld Holds good and tight? Hope all that extra JB weld didn't get in the action when I was dropping it all over the place???











Oh ok from the photos looks like I did a good job with the bastard file getting that JB Weld off the side of it! Whew.........


Michael

CCMDoc,

You know I have never left a double with Michael. You are mighty brave and don't be supprized if you gun comes back to you with 18 inch barrels.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
CCMDoc,

You know I have never left a double with Michael. You are mighty brave and don't be supprized if you gun comes back to you with 18 inch barrels.

Sam

OH MAN!!!!!!!! I have been so busy with the hammer and chisel, and the bastard file, getting that JB Weld off the side, I had not even thought about getting the barrels down to a proper size! Wow, thanks Sam for reminding me, now where is that hacksaw at?

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

Well, I found that hacksaw, it's beginning to look a lot better, handles pretty good too! I suppose I got some big round bastard files around here somewhere, I hear if I just file off one side or the other inside the muzzle it will kick the bullet over and regulate that way???? Now where are those files at?

Why I oughta ...

Michael:

Don't cut the barrels less than 16 inches or they will arrest poor Doc at the airport! This will be so cool, a .470 "coach gun"!

Dave

Damn, I never thought to measure them, I just took a hacksaw and cut where I thought it looked good? Hmmmmmm, where is that tape measure..........?

Opppps! Let me get my glasses, 12? Does that say 12 inches? Where are my glasses? I will be right back!

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Dave

Damn, I never thought to measure them, I just took a hacksaw and cut where I thought it looked good? Hmmmmmm, where is that tape measure..........?

Opppps! Let me get my glasses, 12? Does that say 12 inches? Where are my glasses? I will be right back!

M

Does that stick say IN or CM after the 12 ...??

quote:

Well, I found that hacksaw, it's beginning to look a lot better, handles pretty good too!

Now all you need is a couple of rebel flag stickers to put on the stock!

Question to Doctari:
In your book The Perfect Shot, you state that hemispherical solids penetrate better than flat-nosed solids. However, in one of your recent Sports Afield columns, you stated that flat-nosed solids penetrate best. Which is it?

Answer:
The Perfect Shot was written almost ten years ago. At that time we all thought hemispherical round-nosed solids were the best penetrators, simply because there were few flat-nosed solids available in those days with which to compare them. Things are different today. Flat-nosed solids, we now know, are by far the best for penetration. This is why most manufacturers now offer them. And, more importantly, they also create a larger permanent wound channel, which appears to be about 2/3 of caliber in size. And they also appear to visibly “hit” harder. I have in my photo collection a photo of a large elephant cow that was shot from the rear with a South African-made 410-grain flat-nosed .416 Rigby solid called a Dzombo. The bullet entry wound is just to the side of the spine, and it was recovered in one of the tusks! Total penetration length was 23 feet! I now use these photos in my ballistic lectures. (The cow was shot on problem animal control here in South Africa.) It is thought that the reason why flat-nosed solids penetrate better in bodily tissue is because of what is known as the Vapor Bubble Theory. Such a nose shape creates a shock wave that surrounds the bullet as it passes through the fluid-rich medium of bodily tissue. The flatter the nose, the greater the wave, which displaces bodily tissue sideways. This creates a “bubble” in which the bullet then travels. There is obviously less resistance on the bullet while in the bubble, so it penetrates farther.

I am in the process of updating The Perfect Shot for reasons like this.