Dangerous Game rifle? Will this Win 70 .416 Rem mag be OK?

"...a cartridge that may well redefine, for the first time since 1912, our concept of the world's best all-around cartridge." Craig Boddington, Rifle Shooter Magazine


"With it’s unbelted, .30-06-length case, as much as I hate to say it I think it is a better cartridge than the grand old .375 H&H. It remains to be seen whether it will be accepted or not. Its increased recoil, however slight, may be its one stumbling block. For myself, I’ve been a fan of the .375 H&H since long before I acquired my first one forty years ago. I remain a fan, but when I have a choice I believe I will choose the .375 Ruger." Craig Boddington, Sports Afield

"My original plan was to review this rifle and send it back to Ruger, waiting for the left-handed version that is due out later this year. However, this one is so beautifully accurate, that I believe that I will be sending a check instead. I cannot recommend a rifle more highly than that." Real Guns

"The Hornady/Ruger team faces formidable competition in a niche market already well served by the .375 H&H, .378 Weatherby, and .375 Remington Ultra Mag. However, the .375 Ruger cartridge/rifle package is soundly postured, both technically and historically, to successfully meet the challenge." Lane Pearce, Shooting Times

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
I do not now, never have, nor probably ever will own a Rooger product of any kind.

And we thank you for your well thought out, researched, documented, and your experiences backing your opinion of the 375 ruger and all ruger products in general. Dave, I applaud your utter disregard of convention by your stance that you can give a definative evaluation of a product and product line you have studied with this depth and care.

What makes the 375 HH so great over all other 375's?
Ideal capacity to bore ratio
Nostalgia
Established standard
Ease of shooting
Plenty of factory ammo and guns
Feeding and extracting design

What does the 375 Ruger share?
Capacity similarity and ease of shooting in comparable weight gun.

Advantages?
Shorter action (Subjective)

Please feel free to add what I have missed.


This is more about style than substance I think.

The NEW Ruger Alaskan 375 in Hartford Ct at $699 sold over the weekend. But, now there is a USED Stainless Ruger Alaskan in 375 in the Gun Library for $899! I dont know why the price increase, maybe the NEW one was matt blue steel vs stainless? Or left hand does not know what the right is doing?

One goes out and one comes back... This is what I was talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
What makes the 375 HH so great over all other 375's?
Ideal capacity to bore ratio
Nostalgia
Established standard
Ease of shooting
Plenty of factory ammo and guns
Feeding and extracting design

What does the 375 Ruger share?
Capacity similarity and ease of shooting in comparable weight gun.

Advantages?
Shorter action (Subjective)

Please feel free to add what I have missed.


This is more about style than substance I think.

If all else is equal the H&H will be superior for feeding and extraction due to dimensions. Being belted also allows for a sloppy chamber.

Belted would also mean more positive ignition.

The advantages of the 375 Ruger are commercial. Put it this way, if both were in identical rifles and same price, would anyone select the 375 Ruger and if so, why.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
The NEW Ruger Alaskan 375 in Hartford Ct at $699 sold over the weekend. But, now there is a USED Stainless Ruger Alaskan in 375 in the Gun Library for $899! I dont know why the price increase, maybe the NEW one was matt blue steel vs stainless? Or left hand does not know what the right is doing?
One goes out and one comes back... This is what I was talking about.

I guess that'll have to be one of those unsolved mysteries for you fourebore.. It's easy enough for to figure it out but then I am not trying to push a agenda like you are...
Didn't take long to figure that out also..

I like the 375 Ruger cartridge, its a good idea. I have been tempted many times at the new Rugers, but every time I pick one up, either African or Alaskan, I end up disappointed at the quality of the product and put it back down. I know they could do a better job, the RSMs are nice. I'd like to see them come out with a better finished model somewhere in between the price of the African and the RSM. Something equal to a new model 70 supergrade.

So why do we have so many cart Nazi's here lol

yooo must yoooz zee three seven five H and H or yooo will wear a pink triangle arm band.

I been thinking, again. Yes, dangerous I know; but I believe I DO have the issue settled.

For those of you 375 Ruger fans:
Please list the big game animals you would hunt with a 375 Ruger that you would not hunt with a rifle chambered in 375 H&H.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I been thinking, again. Yes, dangerous I know; but I believe I DO have the issue settled.

For those of you 375 Ruger fans:
Please list the big game animals you would hunt with a 375 Ruger that you would not hunt with a rifle chambered in 375 H&H.

Rich

Or, for the all HH fans ..
please list the animals that could be hunted with a HH that couldn't be hunted with a ruger ..

Right? that's the point, right Rich, that there's not much daylight between them ... ANYTHING that detracts from one detracts from the other ..

and you might read my posts ... i have NEVER slammed the HH ... just provided praise for the ruger on a ruger thread ...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I been thinking, again. Yes, dangerous I know; but I believe I DO have the issue settled.

For those of you 375 Ruger fans:
Please list the big game animals you would hunt with a 375 Ruger that you would not hunt with a rifle chambered in 375 H&H.

Rich

Rich,

It settles nothing. Both cartridges are interchangeable for big game or anything smaller and both cartridges are almost perfect for their intended action length.

I would like to have one just because. I don't have anything except a once in a liftime chance at a moose or buffalo to hunt with one but I'd still like to have one. Almost any Stainless controlled feed action, 20-22 inch med contour barrel, maybe a shilin #5, in stainless, barrel band sling swivel, wood stock,1-5 variable scope,simple sights, a good recoil pad, total weight loaded 9 pounds. DW

Jeffe, et al,

THAT IS MY POINT!

It won't do anything the old H&H hasn't already done for nearly 100 years, and done very well.

Rich

Rich, et al,

THAT IS MY POINT!

It won't do anything the new Ruger won't do PLUS I don't have to perform major surgery on my M98 Mauser unless I decide to do so...and I wouldn't do so for it...404 Jeff perhaps...but for it no.

How about show me a .375 H&H rifle that is trim, lightweight, attractive and costs less than $700?
That is why I bought the Ruger African not because I thought that the .375 Ruger cartridge could do something that the H&H could not.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Jeffe, et al,

THAT IS MY POINT!

It won't do anything the old H&H hasn't already done for nearly 100 years, and done very well.

Rich

So, you agree, the 375 ruger is at least as good as the 375hh ... finaly!

I suspect you could have a good gunsmith do a good once over on the Ruger for under $500.00 and have the utmost confidence in its ability to function reliably; not unlike what AHR performs on the CZ's. Every gun is different with respect to accuracy.
With regard to the Ruger, I might only have second thoughts about ammo availability if I were going off shore.
There are so many folks posting on this board that shoot one off cartridges that are far less likely to find their ammo in a place like Africa than the Ruger / Hornady offerings.

I would really like to hear from the folks that reside in Africa what cartridges are readily available off the shelf.

EZ

I would not give 50 cents for any 375 anything Period! But boy do I like the 375 Ruger and here is WHY! New case, 375 Ruger can do anything the HH version can do--but the point of the matter is that it can do it in shorter and handier rifle and that's the point that seems to be missing! The case is wonderful, and has lot's of options open to it to be made into an entire series of cartridges that are short and and efficient. No matter what you do with a HH case you are stuck with a longer barrel and heavier rifle to be equal on all accounts.

I have no stake in this, but if I was a betting fellow, the 375 Ruger is going to be around quite a while and if anyone picks it up other than Ruger, end story, it's here to stay.

Like I said, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can speak from experience about efficiency and a bigger bore size. My B&Ms far outperformed anything I had in mind from the beginning. Because of the efficiency factor and bore size. I am down to 18 inch barrels in them. And to prove I don't have a dog in a 375 fight, there is in the works right now a 375 B&M that will come close to equal of the Ruger and HH on a WSM action, 7lb 20 inch barrel gun. But, it's not mine, a B&M Patron is building it, and I am helping out with load development is all! I don't need no silly ass 375 anything! I want a light gun I have my 9.3 B&M and a 416 B&M.

But the ruger based cartridge is here for the duration!

Jeffe, Winchester M70???????? Yes or NO? TIME FRAME?

Michael

can someone explain this whole bore diameter efficiency thing? I feel like I'm missing something here.

jsl3170

Well not sure I have a good handle on all the dynamics of it, but I can tell you this, from 416 bore and up it for sure works, shorter fatter powder column. For example, my B&M cartridges are cut off RUM cases to 2.25 inches, fit in Winchester M70 WSM actions. Caliber .500-.458-.416-9.3 and upcoming 375. This case has equal case capacity to 458 Winchester with it's 2.5 inch case. The B&Ms, lets' for example say the 458 version is the dead equal in ballistics to a 458 Winchester. The difference is I can do it in an 18 inch barrel as opposed to the 458 Winchester requiring a 24 inch barrel to do the same. Thats 6 inches less barrel, rather substantial. Lets say now that we have equal case capacity and a equal barrel length of 24 inches. Now with that same bullet overall the shorter B&M will do 50-75 fps more in 24 inches than a 458 Winchester will. So hell, there has to be something to this short fat case? Now not for a second do I buy into that with small bores, but the larger that bore gets to more efficient that short powder column seems to burn, and burn faster!

I am pretty sure that the same effect is at work with Jeffes AR cartridges at 2.5 as opposed to say a 458 Lott at 2.85. The 458 AR is equal to or exceeds 458 Lott in a 20-22 inch barrel on standard action. Same effect.

I suspect the Ruger case is doing much the same thing, although it was only recently that I even saw one.

Now whether what I say is exactly right or not I won't commit, but this has been my observations and experiences over the last 5 yrs with my cartridges.

Hope this helps a little?

Michael

Thanks, Michael. I've been trying to understand why the 375 ruger can do what the H&H can in a shorter case. I guess this explaine it.

Thanks.

the hh case is .532 rim and belt .. but if you where to section the case, you would find it's "as if built on a.511" diameter, as the case doen't balloon under the belt ...

the ruger case is .532 and is internally larger than a same length HH based case ... in fact, the ruger is closer to case capacity of a 375 weatherby than a 375 HH...

It has both a larger base diameter AND a larger shoulder diameter, making the area of the conic section larger .. though its shorter, the difference is so much that the internal capacity is larger..

To refer to the 375 weatherby .. or a 375 HH Ackley improved ... the case taper is taken out (or a large part of it) which makes the 375 W larger capacity than the 375HH ... no one argues this, nor argues that the 375 W outperforms the 375hh ...

your question was on bore effciency .. which isn't a phrase i know .. i know shoulder making the gases work harder, bigger cases go faster on the same caliber at the same pressure, and there's no replacement for dispalcement.


MM - the guy inferred that "this is not going to be a 2010 CATALOG item, BUT we haven't SET the 2011 catalog" ...

I expect we'll see winchester chambering it, just like they are chambering RUMs, Remmags (remember, folks, the 7 rem aint a win) .. heck, they'll even chamber in an neglish round, the 375HH, and are paying Jamison a royalty on every WSM chambered ...

You see, gun maker's chamber for what folks will buy ... and Winchester STILL doesn't make a factory 458 lott, do they?

As to the survivability of the 375Ruger and other rounds they have introduced only time will tell. However, the track record of Ruger as a firearms mfg. and now proprietary cartridges, one has to admit that they have steadily grown over the past five or so decades and believe they are the largest firearms firm in the U.S. They simply don't make many harmfull mistakes or at least one that results in a buyout or takeover by a conglmerate. If I were Winchester, Remington, Savage, CZ, etc. I would most certainly offer my firearms in the Ruger calibers for I see all positives and no negatives in doing so.

jeffe,

i guess what i was asking was what does efficiency mean when folks are discussing vaious bores? in other words, i have read where people have said the 375 ruger case is more efficient than the H&H. i don't know what this means.

so, does this tell why a 375 ruger can shoot a shorter barrel than the H&H and get similar ballistics?

the 375 HH case has a smaller capacity AND the ruger has a stronger shoulder .. rule of thumb is that you get 25% increase in velocity OF the increase in case capacity.

but, a stronger shoulder ALSO makes its 'more betteR" a la teh ackley 250 savage, 257 roberts , or, 375 weatherby ...

you can get about 50-70% of the velcoity increase OF increase in capacity, same length barrel if you greatly improve the case AND add capacity.

I always get a kick out of the luddites that talk shit about the .375 Ruger. Most of them have zero experience with it, and I suspect that few of them even use .375's to hunt in north america.

I didn't read all the posts, but I'm one more Ruger owner that can confirm that the 20" barrel Alaskan will duplicate 24" barrel H&H velocities with handloads using such esoteric powders like H4350.

My Alaskan now wears a Macmiallan stock as I am not fond of any Hogue stock. It's such a nice, handy rifle that I picked it for hunting blacktail deer in thick cover last year and found it just as good as when I first bought it and shot a nice bear with it.

Bottom line is that it gives .375 H&H power in a much trimmer package than most H&H's, and for a reasonable cost. Nothing not to like about that.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatehouse:
I always get a kick out of the luddites that talk shit about the .375 Ruger. Most of them have zero experience with it, and I suspect that few of them even use .375's to hunt in north america.

I didn't read all the posts, but I'm one more Ruger owner that can confirm that the 20" barrel Alaskan will duplicate 24" barrel H&H velocities with handloads using such esoteric powders like H4350.

My Alaskan now wears a Macmiallan stock as I am not fond of any Hogue stock. It's such a nice, handy rifle that I picked it for hunting blacktail deer in thick cover last year and found it just as good as when I first bought it and shot a nice bear with it.

Bottom line is that it gives .375 H&H power in a much trimmer package than most H&H's, and for a reasonable cost. Nothing not to like about that.

Exactly like me.. I have same experiences... And I also replaced the Hogue stock on my Alaskan with a McMillan

If in fact Winchester does make the move to chamber it in a M70 that would be fantastic! This requires the same magazine modifications that Winchester had to do with the 300 RUM---so you know what that means? Easy conversions to all the ARs and the 500 MDMs! And the new 50 MDM by Capoward! Easy steps to other things!

So by all means I AM A DAMN HUGE FAN OF THE 375 RUGER Cartridge! Make it so!

Michael

IMO, the economy has a lot to do with all this (may be not all of it, but a big part) because I'm even seening a lot of cheap .338s for sale out there. Folks just aren't spending money on another rifle right now, especially if the liklihood of taking a big hunting trip isn't on the horizon.

Personally...I'm picking one up as soon as I can!

Regarding Michaels comments:


Sheeeesh! Finally someone with some straight forward facts about the Ruger.
No resting on the laurels of the H&H just because it's been around for so long.
If we all did, we'd have just the .275 Rigby in 7 cal., the .300 WM would not exist, the .333 OKH would still be king!
It's about damn time. . . . . !

Winchester ain't likely to chamber anything in the new M70 that says Ruger on the casehead.

As of 4pm this afternoon I have fired my ninth 375R. All customer returns. None of them have met the ammo box velocities, and several of which featured a marked tendency to jam while trying to get a fast second shot off.

Rich

Jeffe,

Weatherby said the same thing. Until the H P White Labs tested and proved that a maximum velocity increase of twenty-five percent of the case capacity increase could physically occur if, IF the same pressure limits and powder type were adhered to.
In this case, it amounts a 1.75% velocity increase, plus the powder that Hornady is NOT releasing to consumers. Log in on the SAAMI URL and see what the pressures are on the Ruger.

The Ruger hype has been just that since Day One.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Winchester ain't likely to chamber anything in the new M70 that says Ruger on the casehead.

Rich

Remington and Winchester see Ruger as intruders. Weatherby is off to one side and Wby, Win and Rem will all happily chamber each others.

I would be very suprised to see Wby chamber the Ruger and for two reasons. They won't do it in the Vanguard because they don't do the H&H in it. H&H is only in Mark V. If the 375 Ruger and 375 H&H are chambered in the same rifle (and price) 99.9% of the sales would go to the H&H.

Winchester will be like Wby and not put it in their low price gun and because, like Wby, they believe the market for a 375 bore rifle will bear a higher price. But if they chambered the Safari Express in 375 Ruger no one would buy it.

What do you guys think of this opinion?
From http://www.realguns.com/archives/134.htm

quote:

If they had based the Ruger on a 30-06 length version of 404 Jeffery case as Remington did for their Ultra Mags and Winchester did for their Short Mags, Ruger would have at least picked up 10% more powder capacity and maybe found a 100 fps improvement in velocity. Ruger would still have been able to build the gun on a standard length action and Hornady could utilize tooling intended for UM and WSM type cases. I can 't believe one of the top three manufacturers won't admit Ultra is too big, WSM is too small, and a 30-06 Springfield length cartridge of this type is absolutely just right.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatehouse:
I always get a kick out of the luddites that talk shit about the .375 Ruger. Most of them have zero experience with it, and I suspect that few of them even use .375's to hunt in north america.

I didn't read all the posts, but I'm one more Ruger owner that can confirm that the 20" barrel Alaskan will duplicate 24" barrel H&H velocities with handloads using such esoteric powders like H4350.

My Alaskan now wears a Macmiallan stock as I am not fond of any Hogue stock. It's such a nice, handy rifle that I picked it for hunting blacktail deer in thick cover last year and found it just as good as when I first bought it and shot a nice bear with it.

Bottom line is that it gives .375 H&H power in a much trimmer package than most H&H's, and for a reasonable cost. Nothing not to like about that.

.

.
.X 2

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
I was at Cabela in Hartford CT and saw a NEW Ruger Alaskan 375 on the discount rack. With black rubber stock. Price $699 - closeout sale tag. This is the same rack as the grungy old H&R and Savage shotguns. Not behind the counter with the other NEW Rugers.

Trouble with the new Ruger big bores already! I have yet to see a single 416 Ruger. But the 375's are all over over the placed on the used rack, now even NEW guns are showing up on the used rack.

.
.
. Ya Boomy hit the nail on the head !!!!!!!!! Our Socialist White House resident is prolly getting a kick out of his policies causing people to sell their favorite new rifles ..

quote:

Originally posted by umshiniwam:
What do you guys think of this opinion?
From http://www.realguns.com/archives/134.htm

quote:

If they had based the Ruger on a 30-06 length version of 404 Jeffery case as Remington did for their Ultra Mags and Winchester did for their Short Mags, Ruger would have at least picked up 10% more powder capacity and maybe found a 100 fps improvement in velocity. Ruger would still have been able to build the gun on a standard length action and Hornady could utilize tooling intended for UM and WSM type cases. I can 't believe one of the top three manufacturers won't admit Ultra is too big, WSM is too small, and a 30-06 Springfield length cartridge of this type is absolutely just right.

Very simple, was already done:
1st: .375 Dakota - http://ammoguide.com/?catid=530
2nd: .375 Super Swede - http://ammoguide.com/?catid=59

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Winchester ain't likely to chamber anything in the new M70 that says Ruger on the casehead.

As of 4pm this afternoon I have fired my ninth 375R. All customer returns. None of them have met the ammo box velocities, and several of which featured a marked tendency to jam while trying to get a fast second shot off.

Rich

Get your chrono checked out. My 375 Ruger gets the velocities intended, and feeds great form rapid fire.

Ruger (and just about everyone else) figured out how to make a bottleneck cartridge feed and fire, a looong time ago.

OK like I said, I don't have a dog in this fight, and don't give one hoot in hell about a 375 anything. Would not have a 375 dirty my hands! But I do have a question, and this may already be answered as I am late in the game on this thread as it states something about 375 and holds little interest for me.

If you have two rifles, both 20 inch barrels, one 375HH, one 375 Ruger. In 20 inches of tube are they equal velocities?

Michael