ok, then lets see what FN does with the Winchester name. I have the 2010 catalog and they are not exactly sitting on a log. The M70 is an excellent rifle which can handle H&H length ctgs. Ruger may need more than gimmicks to compete.

There is no way you have 2 pounds more weight for an RSM action over an M77. The RSM in 375 is almost 10 pounds. The 375 African is 7 3/4. Split the difference and we got something. Jeff, have you ever looked at the barrel on the RSM in 375? It looks like a vermin gun. Ruger could EASY EASY EASY shave 1 pound of the 375 RSM metal and 1/2 pound in stock weight. I though you were an expert?

Food for thought -

The .375 Ruger is actually doing very well in sales with Howa introducing their own version for shipment around mid year and a couple of others at Shot this year advising the same. Multiple manufacturers to give shooters their choice of firearms is a good way to expand and perpetuate use of the cartridge.

In terms of the installed base of .375 H&H owners and its head start, the same could be said for the .300 H&H which was eventually laid to rest by short and higher performing full length .308" magnums.

The reason the .375 Weatherby, or .378 Weatherby never became mainstream is probably for the same reason most bigger bore Weatherby's never become mainstream - high price rifles and narrow applications. The Ruger is inexpensive and wrapped in a practical hunting rifle.

Technically, the cartridge does have a capacity edge over the H&H, but it is also shorter which means there is an effective barrel length benefit of 0.250" for the Ruger. There's a quick 5 fps. The shorter action length required is a real benefit. I have an ultra light .375 Ruger in the works with a 20.5" barrel that could not have been built with the H&H based on a magnum action mass.

I've not sold my H&H guns, I am very attached, but there is always room for one more cartridge and the Ruger appears to be more than a flash in the pan.

quote:

Originally posted by joe-4570:


In terms of the installed base of .375 H&H owners and its head start, the same could be said for the .300 H&H which was eventually laid to rest by short and higher performing full length .308" magnums.

Diferent situation then. Wby was in swing and velocity was the go. Lots of stuff about blow up proof actions. A 1970 M70 XTR has Wby look alike stock. A Sako Delue was almost a replica of a Mark V and from memory the Rem BDL had the basket weave checkering.

And in this high velocity environment the 300 H&H had poor factory ballistics. The 300 Win was listed as 3070 with 180s and 3400 with 150s. The 7mm Rem 3070 (I think?) with 175s and 3260 with 150s.

The counterpart of that today would have the 375 Ruger doing 378 ballistics etc

The industry resistance to building long actions, has been a source of frustration to me as a big bore enthusiasts.

As for weight, 7.7 pounds is a tad light for me in a 375 and way under for a 416 magnum class gun.

quote:

the .300 H&H which was eventually laid to rest by short and higher performing full length .308" magnums.

This is exactly what most here do not want to see happen with the 375HH,416Rigby,458Lott - The terrific trio.

The best 300 magnums are the long ones IMHO. The Weatherby and the RUM. The 338 Lapua is impressive as well. I might add, my biggest 30 is the 06 and I am probably fine with that for the duration.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

the .300 H&H which was eventually laid to rest by short and higher performing full length .308" magnums.

This is exactly what most here do not want to see happen with the 375HH,416Rigby,458Lott - The terrific trio.

Won't happen. The 375 Ruger will take 338 sales and also create new 375 sales that would not have occurred as opposed to juts a "instead of the H&H" sales.

Although I would think the 375 Ruger would cut into CZ 375 sales.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by joe-4570:


In terms of the installed base of .375 H&H owners and its head start, the same could be said for the .300 H&H which was eventually laid to rest by short and higher performing full length .308" magnums.

Diferent situation then. Wby was in swing and velocity was the go. Lots of stuff about blow up proof actions. A 1970 M70 XTR has Wby look alike stock. A Sako Delue was almost a replica of a Mark V and from memory the Rem BDL had the basket weave checkering.

And in this high velocity environment the 300 H&H had poor factory ballistics. The 300 Win was listed as 3070 with 180s and 3400 with 150s. The 7mm Rem 3070 (I think?) with 175s and 3260 with 150s.

The counterpart of that today would have the 375 Ruger doing 378 ballistics etc

Hmmm... not sure I understand the last comment. The .300 H&H, with long sloping shoulders and lots of body taper, has a case capacity of approximately 86 grains. The .30-06 Length .300 Winchester Magnum has a case capacity of approximately 92 grains. The .300 Winchester Magnum would out perform the full length .300 H&H because it holds more powder. Still, most handload manuals credit the .300 Winchester with a 100 fps difference, probably as a result of, shorter actions causing deeper bullet seating, reduced net capacity.

I think the velocity issue isn't drawing a comparison with the .378 Weatherby, an entirely different class of cartridge, as much as comparing it to the .375 H&H, the round Ruger has targeted to sell against.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

the .300 H&H which was eventually laid to rest by short and higher performing full length .308" magnums.

This is exactly what most here do not want to see happen with the 375HH,416Rigby,458Lott - The terrific trio.

Won't happen. The 375 Ruger will take 338 sales and also create new 375 sales that would not have occurred as opposed to juts a "instead of the H&H" sales.

Although I would think the 375 Ruger would cut into CZ 375 sales.

That's a really interesting point. I would agree the .375 Ruger will make .375 more acceptable to big game hunters and it will probably sell .375 H&H also to people who might have previously considered the cartridge too much for big moose or bear.

Whatever the effect of the .375 Ruger on the the survival of the .375 H&H it won't be quick, but the .375 Ruger at hundereds of dollars less than a classic .375 H&H will put it in the hands of a lot of folks that could not afford the H&H guns.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
The industry resistance to building long actions, has been a source of frustration to me as a big bore enthusiasts.

As for weight, 7.7 pounds is a tad light for me in a 375 and way under for a 416 magnum class gun.

quote:

the .300 H&H which was eventually laid to rest by short and higher performing full length .308" magnums.

This is exactly what most here do not want to see happen with the 375HH,416Rigby,458Lott - The terrific trio.

The best 300 magnums are the long ones IMHO. The Weatherby and the RUM. The 338 Lapua is impressive as well. I might add, my biggest 30 is the 06 and I am probably fine with that for the duration.

I'd guess the reluctance to build big magnum actions is just abottom line decision rather than a philosophical decision. There are far fewer big bore buyers than medium to small because there are far fewer applications for the big guns.

Most of the big guns are hand finished in shops and tweaked for reliability. If you peek in a .500 Jeffery from CZ you'll find lots of hand work and lots of hand fitting of barrels and stocks. Expensive.

Curiosity... Why the desire to preserve a cartridge if same or improved performance in a less costly firearm is an alternative.

KLeave out the case capacities.

The published ballistics of the 300 Win were well in front of the 300 H&H. From memory a 300 H&H was listed at around 3150 with 150 grainers. The 300 Win was 3400 and I think the 300 Wby 3600

That is why I say that to duplicate that today the 375 Ruger would be showing 375 RUM/378 type numbers.

Or put another way the 300 Win had a big velocity advantage over the 300 H&H...for publiched ballistics. But the 375 Ruger is not being sold on that basis.

The 375 Ruger is about the rifle. To duplicate the Ruger with the sights the H&H alternatives are costly, on the CZ is not.

quote:

Originally posted by joe-4570:

That's a really interesting point. I would agree the .375 Ruger will make .375 more acceptable to big game hunters and it will probably sell .375 H&H also to people who might have previously considered the cartridge too much for big moose or bear.

Whatever the effect of the .375 Ruger on the the survival of the .375 H&H it won't be quick, but the .375 Ruger at hundereds of dollars less than a classic .375 H&H will put it in the hands of a lot of folks that could not afford the H&H guns.

Do you remember the situation years ago. Rem 700 was expensive, like a BDL Varmint gun with sights and of course the M70.

In Australia 338s were sold in stuff like Howa and Ruger. But in Sako where both 338 and 375 were the same price it was all 375. Then inchester introduced the Stainless 375 and that was a fair bit cheaper and we started seeing M70 375s appearing.

On a big Australian forum, and our forums tend to concentrate the shooter more than the American sites, 375 Ruger runs well. But when the poster announces the new purchase it has not been a Ruger Vs H&H deal. He will be a bloke that thinks the CZ is a heavy communist junk box and the 375 H&H with at least the island sights are much dearer.

It will be interesting in 10 years time if we are all still here to look back at what happened.

But I would be prepared to bet a fair sum of money that the 375 Ruger will make no inroads into the more expensive guns.

quote:

Curiosity... Why the desire to preserve a cartridge if same or improved performance in a less costly firearm is an alternative.

The real cost does not matter much - it is a few cents. Modern cnc, very little hand work. The same M70 should cost about the same to built chambered for the 375HH as the 375Ruger. Performance difference is mostly imaginary. Its not that hard to kill an animal, with a good shot any gun in the ball park should work.

I am into the history of these great guns and ctgs and the classic styling. I like the my shiloh sharps, Ruger No1 even Browning 1885 BPSR. I dont collect antiques, but I do like the old style levers in old calibers. And the Brittish classics that were used in Africa during the colonial period.

quote:

If you peek in a .500 Jeffery from CZ you'll find lots of hand work and lots of hand fitting

This is a bad example the 500Schuler/Jeff is notoriously difficult rifle to build. A 505Gibbs requires no more special work than a 416 Rigby "IF" there was enough demand to justify making it a standard offering.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
ok, then lets see what FN does with the Winchester name. I have the 2010 catalog and they are not exactly sitting on a log. The M70 is an excellent rifle which can handle H&H length ctgs. Ruger may need more than gimmicks to compete.

There is no way you have 2 pounds more weight for an RSM action over an M77. The RSM in 375 is almost 10 pounds. The 375 African is 7 3/4. Split the difference and we got something. Jeff, have you ever looked at the barrel on the RSM in 375? It looks like a vermin gun. Ruger could EASY EASY EASY shave 1 pound of the 375 RSM metal and 1/2 pound in stock weight. I though you were an expert?

Again, 4b, you aren't looking at the actual problem. if you bought a quarter ribed barrel and had it finished, in quantity=10, it would cost you roughly 1800bucks FOR THE BARREL ALONE ..
the RSM is a MONSTER sized action, and calling it out is not going to fit into your discussion.

I am informed, sir. Ruger uses the SAME barrel profile for the 375 as the 458, and have had various changes by barrel contour. Each time, the barrel profile is the same.

EXACTLY like CZ, with their 300 (at one time) 375-458 lott profile.. Same one, sir, identical exterior shape, from 375-458 ...

Why?
Reduced costs, reduced inventory, reduced tool, ONE stock fitting, and they sell the product for LESS than the cost of the barrel. Dang, really, you don't need to call me out for the simple answers.... want to call someone out based on knowledge, have YOU ever had a ruger RSM out of the stock? it has TWO ribs, one over, one under... TWO .. to make it stiffen during machining to reduce reject rate .. REALLY you need to study the subject before chunking stones at someone who HAS. The ruger RSM is a HUGE action, HUGE barrel, and large stock. It has about 6oz of steel PLATE under it, alone, as a transfer bar ... Please don't bother discussing what you THINK about an RSM with what I have had, in my own hands, and have in my gun safe.

Lets say ruger WANTED to make a quarterribbed smaller barrel .. no market, as the rib and barrel would weigh AT LEAST 1/2 a lb more .. due to nature of turning it. and add $500 bucks to the cost of the gun.

7 3/4 lbs is about right for a 375 ... too bad once you put rings and scope on it, that quickly becomes 9.5 LBS ... in your words, since its nearly 10# then, its too heavy ...

Lets be clear.. a 375 ruger has MINIMAL recoil, even at 7.75, and NIL at 9-9.5 ... Sir, my 550 express weighs less than 11lb .. 9-10lb is a graet weight for a 45 caliber, WITH scope ...

You should be carrying the rifle more than shooting it .. and MOST americans use scopes .. 9+ lbs for a 375 is a boat anchor. Frankly, if you think it kicks too much, you might consider going back to mediums, where the 375 actually belongs.

the m70, LONG ACTION, can handle the full length 375... and of which i have seen ZERO new production ones .. and costs double what a ruger 77 in 375 ruger does, now, doesn't, based off your initial post on the matter...

Remember, for about 10-15 years, there's 3 sizes of m70 actions .. short, standard, long .. wssm, 308/wsm, and 30-06 .. yes, don't bother arguing, its the facts. the wssm can't take a 308 case, and the 308 length can't take a 30-06.. the 30-06, aka LONG or magnum, can take the 375 length rounds.

Seen any 375 HH winchesters, new production, for under a grand lately?

NOPE

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
A 505Gibbs requires no more special work than a 416 Rigby "IF" there was enough demand to justify making it a standard offering.

how many have YOU personally built?
This is not a rational statement ...
In fact, it requires considerable additional work, and there are MANY limitations to this action build. FIRSTLY is bolt diameter, secondly is action width, and only THEN do we get to action length ...

even the CZ, which has made more commerical 505 gibbs than ANYONE on the planet, EVER, has a rediculously thin rim on the bolt face. Its SHOE HORNED it ...

your statement if one of opinion, not experience.

welcome to my ignore list, i am done with you

quote:

This is a bad example the 500Schuler/Jeff is notoriously difficult rifle to build. A 505Gibbs requires no more special work than a 416 Rigby "IF" there was enough demand to justify making it a standard offering.

Sorry, but I can't agree with your statement that a 505 Gibbs take no more work to turn out that a 416 Rigby. The feed work alone is considerably more and the 505 is a lot larger case that indeed takes more work to fit into any action

I have not had my RSM out of the stock. You are saying then, and correct me if I got this wrong, the RSM action by design cannot take a regular round barrel like the one on the African! And there is more, necessary, steel under neath? "If true" Too bad then for Ruger.

Edit: The more I think about this the more I dont believe it. More 1.75% logic. I do not believe Ruger is not capable or making a light weight 375HH. Browning could do it 40 years ago! And still does it today.

The M70 does not appear to have these problems and it is a classic. Maybe we see some competition here.

I believe it is possible (hell, easy) to build an 8 pound 375H&H. How much did the old belgium m98 browning weight in 375? My catalog shows 8.25 lbs with 24in bbl and no effort to cut weight as seen in their light models.

quote:

Sorry, but I can't agree with your statement that a 505 Gibbs take no more work to turn out that a 416 Rigby. The feed work alone is considerably more and the 505 is a lot larger case that indeed takes more work to fit into any action

You are probably right, since that is a unique big case and not a standard offering. We have to give CZ credit for catering to us shooters.

It is my understanding the 505 was designed specifically to fit the magnum Mauser action. So; it should be a reasonable to get this combination to work, although it it requires special bolt face and magazine to accommodate the size. At least it is not highly rebated.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

Curiosity... Why the desire to preserve a cartridge if same or improved performance in a less costly firearm is an alternative.

The real cost does not matter much - it is a few cents. Modern cnc, very little hand work. The same M70 should cost about the same to built chambered for the 375HH as the 375Ruger. Performance difference is mostly imaginary. Its not that hard to kill an animal, with a good shot any gun in the ball park should work.

I am into the history of these great guns and ctgs and the classic styling. I like the my shiloh sharps, Ruger No1 even Browning 1885 BPSR. I dont collect antiques, but I do like the old style levers in old calibers. And the Brittish classics that were used in Africa during the colonial period.

quote:

If you peek in a .500 Jeffery from CZ you'll find lots of hand work and lots of hand fitting

This is a bad example the 500Schuler/Jeff is notoriously difficult rifle to build. A 505Gibbs requires no more special work than a 416 Rigby "IF" there was enough demand to justify making it a standard offering.

Sure. The history of older cartridges and long list of uniquely engineered guns is interesting. Maybe it's the age of individuals and invention, guns with origins of necessity or the result of empirical data and experience. Reading about a turn of the century dangerous game hunter is so much more interesting than reading about an anticeptic hunter operating out of a tree stand or shooting off of sticks held by his PH.

The .500 Jeffery and .505 Gibbs were used as examples of larger than large case diameters. I tend to think of large magnums as beginning with a larger than .375 H&H case head and body diameter.

The .416 Rigby is a relatively predestrian cartridge, probably as reasonable as the .375 H&H for hunting. I like the Rigby a lot. It will produce .416 Weatherby numbers when pushed, moderately loaded the cases last a very long time and recoil isn't that bad.

quote:

he .416 Rigby is a relatively predestrian cartridge, probably as reasonable as the .375 H&H for hunting. I like the Rigby a lot. It will produce .416 Weatherby numbers when pushed, moderately loaded the cases last a very long time and recoil isn't that bad.

I like the Ribgy too and wish it too live long a prosper - With many companies offering actions long enough to handle it. And, I do appreciate that Ruger brought that back. This is the power of Ruger. I would like to see more offerings in the Rigby and for the cost of ammo come down. That is more likely if we get industry and customers to accept this as 'the' standard big 40.

How can a Moderator put someone on his ignore list?

He took his ball and went home.

quote:

Originally posted by Abob:
How can a Moderator put someone on his ignore list?

LMAO ROTF!!! Good question

quote:

Originally posted by Abob:
How can a Moderator put someone on his ignore list?

clicked his name, "add to ignore list"

Moderator .. not saint.

With him on ignore it would seem hard to moderate him if he got out of line...

you want to sign up?
george is the big bores mod ..
he's not needing moderation .. he isn't doing anything WRONG on the board.. just irratating me, by using the tactics of keeping throwing up things until something sticks .. making a federal case out of a trival issue .. its annoying .. watch, he'll go make a fuss that he's being ignored .. its predictable

quote:

by using the tactics of keeping throwing up things until something sticks ..

This is called debating, if nothing sticks you loose the debate.

Offer:

If you want a 375 H&H, or Wby (either), or Ruger and you can swing the $$$ buy it. It doesn't do anything to compare Holland VS Ruger. There is likely more velocity variation if you pulled ten in any caliber off the production line and chrono'ed them between the two in contention here.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Offer:

If you want a 375 H&H, or Wby (either), or Ruger and you can swing the $$$ buy it. It doesn't do anything to compare Holland VS Ruger. There is likely more velocity variation if you pulled ten in any caliber off the production line and chrono'ed them between the two in contention here.

Rich

Not really the case. We have shot them extensively over a chronograph, multiple chronographs, proof screen chronographs and multiple examples of both guns. There is always 75 - 100 fps pick up for the Ruger 23" barrel Ruger, 25" .375 H&H with handloads and a slightly greater difference with factory ammo when loaded to SAAMI pressures. The velocity difference may not seem like much but behind a 270 or 300 grain bullet it is signficant.

quote:

Originally posted by joe-4570:
The velocity difference may not seem like much but behind a 270 or 300 grain bullet it is signficant.

One of the forum members, John S, has an Echol Legend in 375 Wby. I think it is the only on Echols has done as 375 H&H is the obvious chambering for such a high level custom gun.

The reason John got 375 Wby was because on a couple of his trips to Africa he had 375 H&H and his mate had 375 Ackley Improved. Seeing the two calibres side by side resulted in him doing the 375 Wby.

Then of course their is forum owner Saeed with his pair of 375/404 Improved. he has had them away to Africa from 2600 through to max of 2900 and also the 375 Lazzeroni (=378 Wby) at 3100 with 300 grainers. For his few trips his load has settled on 2750 with 300 grain bullets of his own make, which are basically Barnes TSX style.

2700 with 300 grain Barnes X is only in the dreams of the H&H or an optimistic chronograph.

But the point being there are two blokes with plenty of African shooting under their belt and with the choice of about any rifle and who chose somewhat higher velocity than the H&H

FWIW, I just visited the Hornady website and the 375HH superperformance was listed with a 300 grain bullet at 2670fps. The 375Ruger superperformance with 300 grain bullet was listed at 2660. Thats today, I am sure this will and has varied over time.

If 2660 is not enough, there are significantly bigger 375's. The operative word being significant. Other alternatives include 350 grain bullets in 375HH or stepping up to a 40 caliber.

I have heard, I dont know the validity, But I have heard, there are problems due to excess velocity, with some bullets on some game in the 375 H&H. One noted authority on this forum stated he believed the 375H&H Rimmed was a more reliable performer. Regardless if you want more or want less, the difference should be significant.

Then there is the story Ruger would be unable to even built an 8lb 375HH - an engineering achievement apparently not seen since the 1970's and the Browning Safari.

I have seen a surprising number of Ruger Alaskans in 375 on the used gun racks. And one member of AR has had a very bad experience with two of these guns and heard reports of others.

I all that I know is that foubore you are on ignore by Jeffeosso. I suspect that if you get out of line he will not know and would not moderate you back in line

That's Jeffeosso the person, not the moderator. Besides, when we need the Big Bore forum equivalent of "cleanup on Aisle 4" George is the one with the mop.

I was just thinking, wouldn't it be great if every time somebody put you on "Ignore" you got a PM letting you know? I'd love to know what my running total is by now.

Rich

This ain't a poll question. NO postings with your estimate please.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
That's Jeffeosso the person, not the moderator. Besides, when we need the Big Bore forum equivalent of "cleanup on Aisle 4" George is the one with the mop.

I was just thinking, wouldn't it be great if every time somebody put you on "Ignore" you got a PM letting you know? I'd love to know what my running total is by now.

Rich

This ain't a poll question. NO postings with your estimate please.

You're one of AR's best and most insightful sources of humor Rich!! Who would possibly want to ignore you.

PS - If you can read this, I'm not on your list of ignorers.

I always thought a 350g Swift A-Frame at 2550 fps out of a 375 Weatherby would be an excellent round. Unfortunately I couldn't talk them into making one, North Fork either. That and a 350g Barnes Banded Solid at 2550 should handle pretty much anything. The nice thing about the 375 Weatherby is you can fireform using 375 H&H brass and shoot 375 H&H in a pinch if need be.



Chuck

Mac,

Where you been lately, get a woman friend or something?

Ignore me: hard to believe, that anybody would; isn't it?

I always believed that I'd like to know what somebody was saying about me here. I did put one person on "Ignore" finally. Too inane to handle.

Add me to the list of those who would prefer to see a 350gr loading in the big cased 375's. I would just about buy a 375 RUM if they did that.

Rich

There's a difference between Ignore List and Shite List.

I thought Woodleigh is offering a 350 gr 375 caliber bullet? Is that what is being loaded in Norma's PH offering?
I would like to see a 325 gr (just to be different) or really to achieve close to a 330 SD. Similar to the 400 gr in a 416 which appears to be the std for deep penetration.
I would think you could drive a 325 gr out of a H&H close to 2400 FPS. About like the Rem or Rigby driving a similar 400 gr.(.330 SD)
I would stay with a "good" lead core bullet; These heavy bullets in a mono might not stableize well in std factory twist barrels?
I am thinking SWIFT!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

2700 with 300 grain Barnes X is only in the dreams of the H&H or an optimistic chronograph.

It's not so much getting the velocity as figuring out how to put your fingers in both ears and duck while pulling the trigger.

I've had good luck with both GS Custom and Northfork bullets in .375". The 265 grain GS Custom always leads with velocity thanks to the negative shank diameter and thin driving bands, but the Northfork solid shank bonded is such a great penetrating and controlled expansion bullet, it's probably one of my favorites.

The only reason the .416 Rem/Hoffman is demanded is because of the lower cost actions you can chamber the cartridge in relative to the Rigby round. The .375 Ruger has NO such advantage....so why bother. It was dead in the water from day one.

JMHO

Chuck375,

We now do produce a .375-350gr soft point, solid, and our cup point solid. Give us a call or order them from the website.

Regards,
North Fork

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
That's Jeffeosso the person, not the moderator. Besides, when we need the Big Bore forum equivalent of "cleanup on Aisle 4" George is the one with the mop.

I was just thinking, wouldn't it be great if every time somebody put you on "Ignore" you got a PM letting you know? I'd love to know what my running total is by now.

Rich

This ain't a poll question. NO postings with your estimate please.

You're one of AR's best and most insightful sources of humor Rich!! Who would possibly want to ignore you.

PS - If you can read this, I'm not on your list of ignorers.

Haven't you noticed how ironic it is that a moderator would have an ignore list?

quote:

Originally posted by Abob:
How can a Moderator put someone on his ignore list?

Valid question.

My guess is that there are a fair few posters who have the moderator on ignore.