quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
There is a bunch of noted free lancers out there who work on exactly the same structure.

I have booked with a number of free lance PH's that did not control their own areas. I have never been asked to pay the operator or concession holder directly. I have always paid the outfitter booking the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I got my information from Werner Van Noordwyck, who was one of the original 4 plaintiffs. He said they managed to get a fifth guy on board- the first four had already signed, the fifth the being last one to have allegedly signed last week.

I have no ideas as to the locations, etc as all those names and areas are Chinese to me, let alone trying to spell or for that matter remember any of them.

I'm going- last year's cancelled hunt with Werner was pencilled in before Dallas of last year. At the time, Werner was confident they'd win and we were simply in a holding pattern waiting for him to sign. He didn't ask for any money as he knows Butch well. We kept in touch & ultimately know that went tits up last year; nevertheless, Werner still had confidence and that was still going to be this year's hunt but Butch also had some backups just in case. I'm going in September in his Luangwe camp (I think) for the aquatics & buff with a bow.

Again, I don't remember who had what as Butch & Werner started talking about other hunts for his clients and maps and shit..........I just tuned out.

ps DSC was lacking in eye candy this year.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I got my information from Werner Van Noordwyck, who was one of the original 4 plaintiffs. He said they managed to get a fifth guy on board- the first four had already signed, the fifth the being last one to have allegedly signed last week.

I have no ideas as to the locations, etc as all those names and areas are Chinese to me, let alone trying to spell or for that matter remember any of them.

I'm going- last year's cancelled hunt with Werner was pencilled in before Dallas of last year. At the time, Werner was confident they'd win and we were simply in a holding pattern waiting for him to sign. He didn't ask for any money as he knows Butch well. We kept in touch & ultimately know that went tits up last year; nevertheless, Werner still had confidence and that was still going to be this year's hunt but Butch also had some backups just in case. I'm going in September in his Luangwe camp (I think) for the aquatics & buff with a bow.

Again, I don't remember who had what as Butch & Werner started talking about other hunts for his clients and maps and shit..........I just tuned out.

ps DSC was lacking in eye candy this year.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
There is a bunch of noted free lancers out there who work on exactly the same structure.

I have booked with a number of free lance PH's that did not control their own areas. I have never been asked to pay the operator or concession holder directly. I have always paid the outfitter booking the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
There is a bunch of noted free lancers out there who work on exactly the same structure.

I have booked with a number of free lance PH's that did not control their own areas. I have never been asked to pay the operator or concession holder directly. I have always paid the outfitter booking the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I got my information from Werner Van Noordwyck, who was one of the original 4 plaintiffs. He said they managed to get a fifth guy on board- the first four had already signed, the fifth the being last one to have allegedly signed last week.

I have no ideas as to the locations, etc as all those names and areas are Chinese to me, let alone trying to spell or for that matter remember any of them.

I'm going- last year's cancelled hunt with Werner was pencilled in before Dallas of last year. At the time, Werner was confident they'd win and we were simply in a holding pattern waiting for him to sign. He didn't ask for any money as he knows Butch well. We kept in touch & ultimately know that went tits up last year; nevertheless, Werner still had confidence and that was still going to be this year's hunt but Butch also had some backups just in case. I'm going in September in his Luangwe camp (I think) for the aquatics & buff with a bow.

Again, I don't remember who had what as Butch & Werner started talking about other hunts for his clients and maps and shit..........I just tuned out.

ps DSC was lacking in eye candy this year.

Just to clarify you booked with a Zimbabwean PH who is not endorsed in Zambia through a third party and you have no idea where you are hunting?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I got my information from Werner Van Noordwyck, who was one of the original 4 plaintiffs. He said they managed to get a fifth guy on board- the first four had already signed, the fifth the being last one to have allegedly signed last week.

I have no ideas as to the locations, etc as all those names and areas are Chinese to me, let alone trying to spell or for that matter remember any of them.

I'm going- last year's cancelled hunt with Werner was pencilled in before Dallas of last year. At the time, Werner was confident they'd win and we were simply in a holding pattern waiting for him to sign. He didn't ask for any money as he knows Butch well. We kept in touch & ultimately know that went tits up last year; nevertheless, Werner still had confidence and that was still going to be this year's hunt but Butch also had some backups just in case. I'm going in September in his Luangwe camp (I think) for the aquatics & buff with a bow.

Again, I don't remember who had what as Butch & Werner started talking about other hunts for his clients and maps and shit..........I just tuned out.

ps DSC was lacking in eye candy this year.

Just to clarify you booked with a Zimbabwean PH who is not endorsed in Zambia through a third party and you have no idea where you are hunting?

But we all know it’s a Buffalo ARCHERY hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . even worse, he has already said sometime ago that he intends to continue to book hunts in Ibi’s areas and has refused to condemn Ibi and his actions.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Andrew,

Please answer

Andrew,

Have you booked hunts on Ibi’s concession before?

Did you have any problems?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . even worse, he has already said sometime ago that he intends to continue to book hunts in Ibi’s areas and has refused to condemn Ibi and his actions.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I don't think you'd find anyone with a bad thing to say about Butch Coaton.

I put my trust in him implicitly and have no reason whatsoever to do my own half assed research when I can ask him for the correct and realistic answers for what & where I want to hunt.


Again, Butch & Werner go way back. They got started talking about other Butch's other clients for this and next year and I got lost. Like the rest of my body which has gone to shit, my memory is not what it used to be....been rode hard and put up wet one time too many....

I just go to the shows to visit with friends and buy my wife overpriced fringy jackets & vests and furs.........



ps I brought a tanned a buffalo nut sac with me to see if anyone can turn it into a hat band. Nobody had a clue- too many retailers not enough (any) craftsmen. You'd think someone at the show would know someone....and there is of course someone out there, just nobody there at the show knows anyone. Pretty much said fuck it I'll get a pair of scissors and braid it myself.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . even worse, he has already said sometime ago that he intends to continue to book hunts in Ibi’s areas and has refused to condemn Ibi and his actions.

My point is if he had in the past, and had no problems, we should not blame him for this one.

If he had not, and it is the first time, he better stop booking with that owner.

I have no tolerance for cooks.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Look at it as you wish.

The person taking the money is responsible for returning it.

NO ONE ELSE!

Common sense.

Not senseless lawyer talk!

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Look at it as you wish.

The person taking the money is responsible for returning it.

NO ONE ELSE!

Common sense.

Not senseless lawyer talk!

Actually it is the person selling the hunt that determines the terms and conditions. Problem with a lot of us is that if a guy is well known then he is taken on face value and a handshake. Sometimes it costs someone a lot of money to make things right because the "silent party" (Ibi in this case) did not do his part. Sorry Saaed Bwana, but the terms of business is set by the guy advertising and selling the Safari

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Is there any truth to the rumor that Ibi is backed by some wealthy Indians?

There have been some developments. I'll let CME post them if he wishes. AS of yesterday, He had not received any reimbursement.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Are you saying that if you had some quota to move and I introduced you to a client I would be liable?

quote:

Is there any truth to the rumor that Ibi is backed by some wealthy Indians?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

Interesting you mention I have edited my posts as I often read through them and correct spelling and grammar. But sure post the proof.

All the clients booked with Chanjuzi including AR members were reimbursed and I was then very confident the Cme would be next in line.

How else do you book a safari if you do not place a deposit with the Operator?

Cme will be paid by hook or by crook

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

Exactly!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

Exactly!

Exactly +1

I think what escapes some of the guys in the outfitting, PH game, is that many, MANY of us ran businesses to get the disposable income to afford these expensive, hunting vacations.

To that end, “we ain’t a bunch of rubes that just started at this.” I’ve dealt with employees and other business associates of all types, my whole career. Most of them think they are/were fooling me. You’d better get up early, pack a lunch and bring a flashlight, cuz you’re gonna get hungry and it’s gonna get dark, waiting to fool me.

I see straw-men, much obfuscation and finger pointing here. To try to claim no responsibility after pursuing Cme on another forum, via PM, I call BS.

I have no solution to offer Cme other than offering up support and some compassion for his situation. 80k is a huge sum to be out.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul flat out sucks. As I stated earlier, I’ve never operated my business that way.

If the outfitting business model works like that, it’s obviously a failing business model.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

Exactly!

Exactly +1

I think what escapes some of the guys in the outfitting, PH game, is that many, MANY of us ran businesses to get the disposable income to afford these expensive, hunting vacations.

To that end, “we ain’t a bunch of rubes that just started at this.” I’ve dealt with employees and other business associates of all types, my whole career. Most of them think they are/were fooling me. You’d better get up early, pack a lunch and bring a flashlight, cuz you’re gonna get hungry and it’s gonna get dark, waiting to fool me.

I see straw-men, much obfuscation and finger pointing here. To try to claim no responsibility after pursuing Cme on another forum, via PM, I call BS.

I have no solution to offer Cme other than offering up support and some compassion for his situation. 80k is a huge sum to be out.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul flat out sucks. As I stated earlier, I’ve never operated my business that way.

If the outfitting business model works like that, it’s obviously a failing business model.

Yup. I agree. However , I do think Zambia did a number on a lot of people.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

Interesting you mention I have edited my posts as I often read through them and correct spelling and grammar. But sure post the proof.

All the clients booked with Chanjuzi including AR members were reimbursed and I was then very confident the Cme would be next in line.

How else do you book a safari if you do not place a deposit with the Operator?

Cme will be paid by hook or by crook

You have edited numerous damning posts. When all this started I thought you were just not sophisticated and Ibi took advantage of that; it was when you started editing posts that I became convinced that you were in on the scam from the beginning.

Maybe Saeed has access to your posts as originally published?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

Exactly!

Exactly +1

I think what escapes some of the guys in the outfitting, PH game, is that many, MANY of us ran businesses to get the disposable income to afford these expensive, hunting vacations.

To that end, “we ain’t a bunch of rubes that just started at this.” I’ve dealt with employees and other business associates of all types, my whole career. Most of them think they are/were fooling me. You’d better get up early, pack a lunch and bring a flashlight, cuz you’re gonna get hungry and it’s gonna get dark, waiting to fool me.

I see straw-men, much obfuscation and finger pointing here. To try to claim no responsibility after pursuing Cme on another forum, via PM, I call BS.

I have no solution to offer Cme other than offering up support and some compassion for his situation. 80k is a huge sum to be out.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul flat out sucks. As I stated earlier, I’ve never operated my business that way.

If the outfitting business model works like that, it’s obviously a failing business model.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

Exactly!

Exactly +1

I think what escapes some of the guys in the outfitting, PH game, is that many, MANY of us ran businesses to get the disposable income to afford these expensive, hunting vacations.

To that end, “we ain’t a bunch of rubes that just started at this.” I’ve dealt with employees and other business associates of all types, my whole career. Most of them think they are/were fooling me. You’d better get up early, pack a lunch and bring a flashlight, cuz you’re gonna get hungry and it’s gonna get dark, waiting to fool me.

I see straw-men, much obfuscation and finger pointing here. To try to claim no responsibility after pursuing Cme on another forum, via PM, I call BS.

I have no solution to offer Cme other than offering up support and some compassion for his situation. 80k is a huge sum to be out.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul flat out sucks. As I stated earlier, I’ve never operated my business that way.

If the outfitting business model works like that, it’s obviously a failing business model.

Yup. I agree. However , I do think Zambia did a number on a lot of people.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

Exactly!

Exactly +1

I think what escapes some of the guys in the outfitting, PH game, is that many, MANY of us ran businesses to get the disposable income to afford these expensive, hunting vacations.

To that end, “we ain’t a bunch of rubes that just started at this.” I’ve dealt with employees and other business associates of all types, my whole career. Most of them think they are/were fooling me. You’d better get up early, pack a lunch and bring a flashlight, cuz you’re gonna get hungry and it’s gonna get dark, waiting to fool me.

I see straw-men, much obfuscation and finger pointing here. To try to claim no responsibility after pursuing Cme on another forum, via PM, I call BS.

I have no solution to offer Cme other than offering up support and some compassion for his situation. 80k is a huge sum to be out.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul flat out sucks. As I stated earlier, I’ve never operated my business that way.

If the outfitting business model works like that, it’s obviously a failing business model.

Yup. I agree. However , I do think Zambia did a number on a lot of people.

quote:

Actually it is the person selling the hunt that determines the terms and conditions. Problem with a lot of us is that if a guy is well known then he is taken on face value and a handshake. Sometimes it costs someone a lot of money to make things right because the "silent party" (Ibi in this case) did not do his part. Sorry Saaed Bwana, but the terms of business is set by the guy advertising and selling the Safari

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

Exactly!

Exactly +1

I think what escapes some of the guys in the outfitting, PH game, is that many, MANY of us ran businesses to get the disposable income to afford these expensive, hunting vacations.

To that end, “we ain’t a bunch of rubes that just started at this.” I’ve dealt with employees and other business associates of all types, my whole career. Most of them think they are/were fooling me. You’d better get up early, pack a lunch and bring a flashlight, cuz you’re gonna get hungry and it’s gonna get dark, waiting to fool me.

I see straw-men, much obfuscation and finger pointing here. To try to claim no responsibility after pursuing Cme on another forum, via PM, I call BS.

I have no solution to offer Cme other than offering up support and some compassion for his situation. 80k is a huge sum to be out.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul flat out sucks. As I stated earlier, I’ve never operated my business that way.

If the outfitting business model works like that, it’s obviously a failing business model.

Steve

I receive AH notifications all the time and really what is so wrong with pursuing hunting opportunities on other forums?

I get your business ethics but then again you did not have your company stolen from you or all your contracts cancelled. Business in Africa is a different ball game and you tread lightly here.

Who is claiming no responsibility? I am the only one communicating with Cme to resolve this.

I did not rob anyone and at the end of the day, I also got shafted and had to reshuffle and seek reimbursements and deal with operators who fucked me with daily rates and trophy fees.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

Exactly!

Exactly +1

I think what escapes some of the guys in the outfitting, PH game, is that many, MANY of us ran businesses to get the disposable income to afford these expensive, hunting vacations.

To that end, “we ain’t a bunch of rubes that just started at this.” I’ve dealt with employees and other business associates of all types, my whole career. Most of them think they are/were fooling me. You’d better get up early, pack a lunch and bring a flashlight, cuz you’re gonna get hungry and it’s gonna get dark, waiting to fool me.

I see straw-men, much obfuscation and finger pointing here. To try to claim no responsibility after pursuing Cme on another forum, via PM, I call BS.

I have no solution to offer Cme other than offering up support and some compassion for his situation. 80k is a huge sum to be out.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul flat out sucks. As I stated earlier, I’ve never operated my business that way.

If the outfitting business model works like that, it’s obviously a failing business model.

Steve

I receive AH notifications all the time and really what is so wrong with pursuing hunting opportunities on other forums?

I get your business ethics but then again you did not have your company stolen from you or all your contracts cancelled. Business in Africa is a different ball game and you tread lightly here.

Who is claiming no responsibility? I am the only one communicating with Cme to resolve this.

I did not rob anyone and at the end of the day, I also got shafted and had to reshuffle and seek reimbursements and deal with operators who fucked me with daily rates and trophy fees.

Let me try to clarify- I get it that the Government caused this cluster to begin with. The margins for error are clearly very very small.

I myself have hunted with several PH’s that use your same business model. Wayne Grant in Tanzania was the same arrangement. I’ve never had something like this or even close to this occur. (In Africa)

My point here is that you do bear some responsibility. I’m not saying total financial responsibility but you in fact made the deal possible to begin with.


The fact that Ibi used Cme’s deposit to repay everyone but Cme, really sucks.

I don’t pretend to know your financial situation and it’s none of my business, is it possible to get loans in Zambia for GMA’s? Seems you having a block of your own would eventually lead to smoother sailing.

I for one know what a 80,000 dollar loss would feel like, a kick, square in the sack.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You left out a few parts . . . like Andrew marketing and selling the hunt in the first instance, like Andrew setting the client up with Ibi, like Andrew changing his story repeatedly here and editing old posts to be consistent with the evolving story, like Andrew telling everyone the client's issues were with Ibi and it was out of his hands after he put the whole hunt together, etc. Do you think the client ever would have ever paid Ibi but for Andrew selling the hunt that way and assuring the client all was good? You want to paint Andrew as a victim, he was involved in the deal from its inception all the way until the deal went tits up and then he wants to pretend it is all Ibi's issue. Some folks actually feel that an outfitter selling and booking a hunt has a bit more responsibility than that to make the situation right.

Exactly!

Exactly +1

I think what escapes some of the guys in the outfitting, PH game, is that many, MANY of us ran businesses to get the disposable income to afford these expensive, hunting vacations.

To that end, “we ain’t a bunch of rubes that just started at this.” I’ve dealt with employees and other business associates of all types, my whole career. Most of them think they are/were fooling me. You’d better get up early, pack a lunch and bring a flashlight, cuz you’re gonna get hungry and it’s gonna get dark, waiting to fool me.

I see straw-men, much obfuscation and finger pointing here. To try to claim no responsibility after pursuing Cme on another forum, via PM, I call BS.

I have no solution to offer Cme other than offering up support and some compassion for his situation. 80k is a huge sum to be out.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul flat out sucks. As I stated earlier, I’ve never operated my business that way.

If the outfitting business model works like that, it’s obviously a failing business model.

Steve

I receive AH notifications all the time and really what is so wrong with pursuing hunting opportunities on other forums?

I get your business ethics but then again you did not have your company stolen from you or all your contracts cancelled. Business in Africa is a different ball game and you tread lightly here.

Who is claiming no responsibility? I am the only one communicating with Cme to resolve this.

I did not rob anyone and at the end of the day, I also got shafted and had to reshuffle and seek reimbursements and deal with operators who fucked me with daily rates and trophy fees.

Let me try to clarify- I get it that the Government caused this cluster to begin with. The margins for error are clearly very very small.

I myself have hunted with several PH’s that use your same business model. Wayne Grant in Tanzania was the same arrangement. I’ve never had something like this or even close to this occur. (In Africa)

My point here is that you do bear some responsibility. I’m not saying total financial responsibility but you in fact made the deal possible to begin with.


The fact that Ibi used Cme’s deposit to repay everyone but Cme, really sucks.

I don’t pretend to know your financial situation and it’s none of my business, is it possible to get loans in Zambia for GMA’s? Seems you having a block of your own would eventually lead to smoother sailing.

I for one know what a 80,000 dollar loss would feel like, a kick, square in the sack.