quote:

Originally posted by Cme:
Saeed, that is where you and I see things differently. If someone sells me a hunt, is party to all communication, and receives a copy of the contract then I hold them responsible for facilitating the refund. Fairgame stood to benefit from this hunt just like the outfitter. I would not have sent money to the outfitter had it not been for the reputation of Fairgame on this site. It is actually sad that it has now been 6 months and not a single dollar has been returned.

I understand your position.

But ultimately the man receiving the money is responsible for returning it.

Andrew did get the money.

He lost a job.

He is being lied to by the concession owners.

He does have some responsibility to put an effort to get you your money back.

Ibri is lying to him as he is lying to you.

Are you sure about that? Shouldn’t it be the responsibility of the person selling the hunts to know who they are doing business with? If Fairgame booked all of the quota for the concession this year shouldn’t it be his responsibility to know about what is going on with said concession. The operator typically sold quota to other PH’s/outfitters and one outfitter has bought most of that quota for the past several years. That outfitter didn’t attempt to buy or sell any quota in that concession for 2023 due to the closures. Wouldn’t it have been a red flag that the other outfitters weren’t trying to get the quota for 2023?

It seems like my money was used to refund the people that could book easier to replace hunts in 2023. Fairgame may have lost revenue but he still got to hunt and received his day rates for those he was able to take elsewhere. I believe your hatred towards CMS has skewed the facts of this matter. This was never CMS vs Fairgame, this is right vs wrong. You can twist the facts as much as you want, but I think you would have the same outlook as I do if you were in the same situation.

quote:

Andrew did (NOT) get the money.

There, fixed it.

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:
Are you sure about that? Shouldn’t it be the responsibility of the person selling the hunts to know who they are doing business with? If Fairgame booked all of the quota for the concession this year shouldn’t it be his responsibility to know about what is going on with said concession. The operator typically sold quota to other PH’s/outfitters and one outfitter has bought most of that quota for the past several years. That outfitter didn’t attempt to buy or sell any quota in that concession for 2023 due to the closures. Wouldn’t it have been a red flag that the other outfitters weren’t trying to get the quota for 2023?

It seems like my money was used to refund the people that could book easier to replace hunts in 2023. Fairgame may have lost revenue but he still got to hunt and received his day rates for those he was able to take elsewhere. I believe your hatred towards CMS has skewed the facts of this matter. This was never CMS vs Fairgame, this is right vs wrong. You can twist the facts as much as you want, but I think you would have the same outlook as I do if you were in the same situation.

And that is really the crux of the matter . . . consider the issue from your perspective. First, we are talking about $80,000, not $8,000. Second, Andrew marketed and sold the hunt. Third, it was Andrew that chose the concession area, the operator and cut the deal with Ibi. Fourth, when the deal went south, it was Andrew who told you your recourse is with Ibi, good luck.

I am highly confident that if any of us found ourselves in your situation we would not be pissing and moaning about poor Andrew and how he may have lost some daily rates, how he is a victim too, etc. We would be livid that the person we dealt with all the way up until it was time to pay the money is telling us it is not his problem, that he deserves sympathy too and that oh by the way I got you a helluva deal on the hunt you were never able to do and that you have been left holding the bag on.

The only right answer from Andrew from the very start would have been, this was my bad, I made a mistake, I accept that and am responsible for that, and come hell or high water I am going to make it right for Corey and do everything in my power and my pocketbook to get him his money back.

I fully sympathize with Andrew and the wrongs that have been inflicted on him and his family. Hopefully things will work out and wish him all the best.

Zambia is in my future, and I had thought about contacting him for a hunt. But it seems that he did not look out for the interests of CME, just certain clients. Many posters have issued support based on past experiences, however that does not excuse what has happened in this instance.

If I promote or otherwise offer a service to someone for which I will somehow profit then I have a responsibility to that person, maybe not legally but morally and ethically. Andrew stated he made sure all other clients were provided refunds however CME was not one of those. In fact, CME was encouraged to send an additional $20,000.00.

Reminds me of a broker that sent clients wastes to a facility they knew was going bankrupt. The facility pocketed the money and when the State came in and shut the place down, the broker told the clients it was their fault for not doing due diligence on the facility processing their waste. So much for putting your faith in someone who claimed to be working in ones interests. Some of these clients paid for disposal a second time and most of them black balled this broker, never to do business with them again. Certain clients came out unscathed, their wastes miraculously not delivered to the bankrupt facility.

There is no way CME knew who IBI was or how to contact him. Given the troubles Andrew was having I can see why he had CME send the money directly to IBI. That does not make Andrew immune, it makes him ethically responsible for doing everything in his power to ensure CME is provided a full and complete refund. (An attorney could possibly make a case otherwise)

IBI is legally responsible for return of the money and if possible, something needs to be done to prevent others from being placed in this same position and CME made whole. Time for someone in Zambia to step up and make this happen.

It’s also tough to see Andrew as a sympathetic, honest person when he keeps editing his posts to better reflect his version of the story.

Ultimately, everyone has skeleton in closet, even the worst critics on here and every outfitter has one or two black marks in their book and every client as well
And no excuses either for no one and nohow

quote:

I would not have sent money to the outfitter had it not been for the reputation of Fairgame on this site

Hmmmmmm......


.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:
Are you sure about that? Shouldn’t it be the responsibility of the person selling the hunts to know who they are doing business with? If Fairgame booked all of the quota for the concession this year shouldn’t it be his responsibility to know about what is going on with said concession. The operator typically sold quota to other PH’s/outfitters and one outfitter has bought most of that quota for the past several years. That outfitter didn’t attempt to buy or sell any quota in that concession for 2023 due to the closures. Wouldn’t it have been a red flag that the other outfitters weren’t trying to get the quota for 2023?

It seems like my money was used to refund the people that could book easier to replace hunts in 2023. Fairgame may have lost revenue but he still got to hunt and received his day rates for those he was able to take elsewhere. I believe your hatred towards CMS has skewed the facts of this matter. This was never CMS vs Fairgame, this is right vs wrong. You can twist the facts as much as you want, but I think you would have the same outlook as I do if you were in the same situation.

And that is really the crux of the matter . . . consider the issue from your perspective. First, we are talking about $80,000, not $8,000. Second, Andrew marketed and sold the hunt. Third, it was Andrew that chose the concession area, the operator and cut the deal with Ibi. Fourth, when the deal went south, it was Andrew who told you your recourse is with Ibi, good luck.

I am highly confident that if any of us found ourselves in your situation we would not be pissing and moaning about poor Andrew and how he may have lost some daily rates, how he is a victim too, etc. We would be livid that the person we dealt with all the way up until it was time to pay the money is telling us it is not his problem, that he deserves sympathy too and that oh by the way I got you a helluva deal on the hunt you were never able to do and that you have been left holding the bag on.

The only right answer from Andrew from the very start would have been, this was my bad, I made a mistake, I accept that and am responsible for that, and come hell or high water I am going to make it right for Corey and do everything in my power and my pocketbook to get him his money back.

I don't see how any reasonable person can see it any other way!

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:
Are you sure about that? Shouldn’t it be the responsibility of the person selling the hunts to know who they are doing business with? If Fairgame booked all of the quota for the concession this year shouldn’t it be his responsibility to know about what is going on with said concession. The operator typically sold quota to other PH’s/outfitters and one outfitter has bought most of that quota for the past several years. That outfitter didn’t attempt to buy or sell any quota in that concession for 2023 due to the closures. Wouldn’t it have been a red flag that the other outfitters weren’t trying to get the quota for 2023?

It seems like my money was used to refund the people that could book easier to replace hunts in 2023. Fairgame may have lost revenue but he still got to hunt and received his day rates for those he was able to take elsewhere. I believe your hatred towards CMS has skewed the facts of this matter. This was never CMS vs Fairgame, this is right vs wrong. You can twist the facts as much as you want, but I think you would have the same outlook as I do if you were in the same situation.

And that is really the crux of the matter . . . consider the issue from your perspective. First, we are talking about $80,000, not $8,000. Second, Andrew marketed and sold the hunt. Third, it was Andrew that chose the concession area, the operator and cut the deal with Ibi. Fourth, when the deal went south, it was Andrew who told you your recourse is with Ibi, good luck.

I am highly confident that if any of us found ourselves in your situation we would not be pissing and moaning about poor Andrew and how he may have lost some daily rates, how he is a victim too, etc. We would be livid that the person we dealt with all the way up until it was time to pay the money is telling us it is not his problem, that he deserves sympathy too and that oh by the way I got you a helluva deal on the hunt you were never able to do and that you have been left holding the bag on.

The only right answer from Andrew from the very start would have been, this was my bad, I made a mistake, I accept that and am responsible for that, and come hell or high water I am going to make it right for Corey and do everything in my power and my pocketbook to get him his money back.

I don't see how any reasonable person can see it any other way!

100% agree.

100% +1 agree.

Does anyone remember fairgame/Andrew’s posts before he edited them?


Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Talking about Andrew paying from his own pocket is just plain stupid.

ANDREW DID NOT RECEIVE THE MONEY!!

Common sense and lawyers don’t mix!

Like oil and water!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Talking about Andrew paying from his own pocket is just plain stupid.

ANDREW DID NOT RECEIVE THE MONEY!!

Common sense and lawyers don’t mix!

Like oil and water!

Lets see;
Andrew initiated the contact with CME
Andrew negotiated all the details in the deal
Andrew was the main point of contact
Andrew was to be the PH
Andrew DIRECTED where the money should be sent
Andrew was responsible for all the details and deals with concession owners

Hunt never happens, and Andrew goes "oh thats unfortunate, but you have to get your money back on your own, I have no responsibility in that matter...."

Yeah right....
COMMON SENSE says he very much shares the responsibility in returning the money!

LAWYERS on the other hand, are the ones who might argue otherwise.....

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:
Are you sure about that? Shouldn’t it be the responsibility of the person selling the hunts to know who they are doing business with? If Fairgame booked all of the quota for the concession this year shouldn’t it be his responsibility to know about what is going on with said concession. The operator typically sold quota to other PH’s/outfitters and one outfitter has bought most of that quota for the past several years. That outfitter didn’t attempt to buy or sell any quota in that concession for 2023 due to the closures. Wouldn’t it have been a red flag that the other outfitters weren’t trying to get the quota for 2023?

It seems like my money was used to refund the people that could book easier to replace hunts in 2023. Fairgame may have lost revenue but he still got to hunt and received his day rates for those he was able to take elsewhere. I believe your hatred towards CMS has skewed the facts of this matter. This was never CMS vs Fairgame, this is right vs wrong. You can twist the facts as much as you want, but I think you would have the same outlook as I do if you were in the same situation.

And that is really the crux of the matter . . . consider the issue from your perspective. First, we are talking about $80,000, not $8,000. Second, Andrew marketed and sold the hunt. Third, it was Andrew that chose the concession area, the operator and cut the deal with Ibi. Fourth, when the deal went south, it was Andrew who told you your recourse is with Ibi, good luck.

I am highly confident that if any of us found ourselves in your situation we would not be pissing and moaning about poor Andrew and how he may have lost some daily rates, how he is a victim too, etc. We would be livid that the person we dealt with all the way up until it was time to pay the money is telling us it is not his problem, that he deserves sympathy too and that oh by the way I got you a helluva deal on the hunt you were never able to do and that you have been left holding the bag on.

The only right answer from Andrew from the very start would have been, this was my bad, I made a mistake, I accept that and am responsible for that, and come hell or high water I am going to make it right for Corey and do everything in my power and my pocketbook to get him his money back.

I don't see how any reasonable person can see it any other way!

100% agree.

+ 1

quote:

Originally posted by Cardinal:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Talking about Andrew paying from his own pocket is just plain stupid.

ANDREW DID NOT RECEIVE THE MONEY!!

Common sense and lawyers don’t mix!

Like oil and water!

Lets see;
Andrew initiated the contact with CME
Andrew negotiated all the details in the deal
Andrew was the main point of contact
Andrew was to be the PH
Andrew DIRECTED where the money should be sent
Andrew was responsible for all the details and deals with concession owners

Hunt never happens, and Andrew goes "oh thats unfortunate, but you have to get your money back on your own, I have no responsibility in that matter...."

Yeah right....
COMMON SENSE says he very much shares the responsibility in returning the money!

LAWYERS on the other hand, are the ones who might argue otherwise.....

Very well put together.

.

Ok, let us get to reality now.

Which one of you, being in Andrew's position, would pay $80,000 from his own pocket?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Ok, let us get to reality now.

Which one of you, being in Andrew's position, would pay $80,000 from his own pocket?

I would . This episode, including way he has handled it, has not been good for his reputation. It cannot be good for his business. How many people have posted here that they would not go with Andrew after this?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Ok, let us get to reality now.

Which one of you, being in Andrew's position, would pay $80,000 from his own pocket?

I would . This episode, including way he has handled it, has not been good for his reputation. It cannot be good for his business. How many people have posted here that they would not go with Andrew after this?

ever think he does not have the 80,000 to do just that. Nothing I have seen before this shit show would make me think he would not do it if he was able. Lets see just coming of years of covid stopping guys for going, Then a season mostly lost because of govt screwing up a hunting season, Looses he camp and who knows all what else also. Believe it or not everyone is not as well off as a few guys on here. Trust me as many guys that have decide not to may go with him to hunt to . A bunch of us also realize how many haters are on here now just trying to make it even worse for him. I know I lost alot of respect for guys I use to think were ok on here.

I know I saw a comment on one of these thread that it is not like the guy is only out 8000.00 he is out 80,000. Just know 8000 is even alot to some of us and more then a few of you come across as ass holes. I feel bad for anyone who gets taken for any amount. I hope the client gets all 80,000 back plus andrew gets to make a living yet. For those that feel bad and have an extra 80,000 laying around please send it since your all perfect and it will make you look great.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Ok, let us get to reality now.

Which one of you, being in Andrew's position, would pay $80,000 from his own pocket?

I would . This episode, including way he has handled it, has not been good for his reputation. It cannot be good for his business. How many people have posted here that they would not go with Andrew after this?

+1 then go and camp out in Ibi's chest until he paid me back....

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Ok, let us get to reality now.

Which one of you, being in Andrew's position, would pay $80,000 from his own pocket?

I would . This episode, including way he has handled it, has not been good for his reputation. It cannot be good for his business. How many people have posted here that they would not go with Andrew after this?

ever think he does not have the 80,000 to do just that. Nothing I have seen before this shit show would make me think he would not do it if he was able. Lets see just coming of years of covid stopping guys for going, Then a season mostly lost because of govt screwing up a hunting season, Looses he camp and who knows all what else also. Believe it or not everyone is not as well off as a few guys on here. Trust me as many guys that have decide not to may go with him to hunt to . A bunch of us also realize how many haters are on here now just trying to make it even worse for him. I know I lost alot of respect for guys I use to think were ok on here.

I know I saw a comment on one of these thread that it is not like the guy is only out 8000.00 he is out 80,000. Just know 8000 is even alot to some of us and more then a few of you come across as ass holes. I feel bad for anyone who gets taken for any amount. I hope the client gets all 80,000 back plus andrew gets to make a living yet. For those that feel bad and have an extra 80,000 laying around please send it since your all perfect and it will make you look great.

Well,if you are going to play the big dog, then need to be able to back it up. Andrew acted as agent, PH and go-between. He never saw the money but did this to earn a commission as well as his daily rates. It is a business risk that he chose to take. If you are going to take risk, better have a plan B or a good partner. He had neither.

Risk carries consequences. This is just that.

Another aspect to this is that IF Ibi is good for the debt, then why doesn't Andrew beg/borrow to make this right then let Ibi pay Andrew back. Ibi, if he is the concession owner and connected locally has access to resources he may not be attempting to access as he waits for more deposits to flow in in order to pay back this debt. Who knows??? But one this is pretty certain, this will put a dent in any future activity for Ibi and possibly Andrew as a result to this. The damage is significant to the reputations....

I hope all works out and this gets behind Andrew and all involved. It is a mess....

I doubt many think that Andrew has the $80,000. That was not the question.

As to the $8,000 versus $80,000 question. I see it a bit differently. While I can’t speak for Mike, I see the shear size of the amount involved as significant. I’ll
Bet CME would not be as upset if it was $8,000 in question.

The amount is really not important in my question.

To some here $80,000 is relatively small.

To others it is an impossible sum to spare.

I suspect it is an enormous amount to Andrew.

Just it is to most hunters who save for years to be able to go on a dream hunt.

Larry is very well known for his generosity.

He is also a man who values his reputation.

And as he said he would have paid it.

But, who else would pay from his own pockets??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The amount is really not important in my question.

To some here $80,000 is relatively small.

To others it is an impossible sum to spare.

I suspect it is an enormous amount to Andrew.

Just it is to most hunters who save for years to be able to go on a dream hunt.

Larry is very well known for his generosity.

He is also a man who values his reputation.

And as he said he would have paid it.

But, who else would pay from his own pockets??

I would. If I acted as a "fixer" such as this I would pay out the customers money and go after the crook.

A messy shit this is but the customer is the one who needs support. Seems Andrew painted himself into a corner here but there is always a chance of fixing the mess. As long as there are no prepaid trophy fees on the table, we tend to forget and move on. Wish the best outcome here. Maybe ARs focus can tribute to that.

funny how most who think andrew should be the one paying it back are the ones on here making sure his business gets ruined.

as for andrew should of had a plan for a refund if the landowner did not is plan stupid. No one goes into a deal worried about what if the other party does not do there part. I better have a plan to pay for there fuck up.

sucks but the wire or how ever the payment was made was not to andrew. That was known by sender I am sure. Should andrew do all he can to help yes for sure but there is limits to what he can do also.

Obviously, this is not a good situation. It has been handled poorly by both Ibi and Andrew . This has made it far worse in terms of damage to reputation.

They should have been truthful from the beginning . Admitted they don’t have the money at present and come up with some plan to get CME paid over time . This would be the action of a stand up guy.

Instead, what has happened is:

Flat out misrepresentations on numerous counts. Some of these have not been made public.

Disclaimer of liability .

Playing the victim card.

Altering prior posts to help support one’s position .

Continually stirring the game pot rather than shutting up and letting the uproar die down.

I hope CME gets paid . I have my doubts.

I hope Zambia gets its act together.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I doubt many think that Andrew has the $80,000. That was not the question.

As to the $8,000 versus $80,000 question. I see it a bit differently. While I can’t speak for Mike, I see the shear size of the amount involved as significant. I’ll
Bet CME would not be as upset if it was $8,000 in question.

I bet your right 8000 would be not as big of a deal. I bet many on here would not be up in arms either. My point is that 8000 to some maybe equal to 80,000 for others. Thats one of my points a few on here pick what matters to them based on that number not always the problem. Shame all around but all bad deals are bad.

I just see one guy getting buried who I feel bad for and think he is not at fault. I also feel bad for hunter because he is not at fault either. Hunter seems to be living and moving on hoping he gets his money back. andrew seems to be trying to get refund done but in the mean time guys are doing all they can to stop him from making a living. Up to this point I have heard nothing bad about andrew so not sure it is fair how guys are just piling on trying to ruin his life and cost him well over the 80,000 over his life time.

Not a unique event ... a (rifle) customer of mine booked a leopard hunt with someone in Zim (directly, not through me), sent a large deposit, Zimbo absconded with his and others' deposits.

This would suggest that sending deposits to Africa is a very bad idea.

On the other hand, operators cannot afford to have a client cancel with no recourse or deposit on hand. There are only so many days in a season and so many animals on quota, and in most cases the lease is paid in advance as is the quota.

This calls for a third neutral party with capital reserves to hold and disburse deposit money, like a letter of credit. When you deliver the hunt, you get the money. Or a hunt insurance scheme of some sort.

.

I have followed this thread from day one and refrained from commenting thus far perhaps because I have hunted with Andrew a couple of times and found him to be a straight up guy in all my dealings with him.

Yet I do have a couple of comments and one - for me - key question:

1/ In my opinion it is simply dumb to transfer USD 60 k to someone you have never spoken to directly nor looked in the eye that lives in a third world country with a faltering economy, that you have never been to and have no contacts or hold points in

2/ it is then even dumber to put in another USD 20 k for 1 more trophy and 1 more hunter when you are already USD 60 k in. Anyone with more sense than money should have said - I am 60 k in already just make it happen and I will settle the balance on arrival or after the successful hunt!

But the burning question for me is whether the Zambia side - Ibi and / or Andrew - knew that the lion hunt was doomed at the time of asking for the extra 20 k for the buff deposit ? If the answer is yes well then ..... If the answer is no, then maybe there is a shred of reputation that can be saved if this somehow comes right.

I would like to think that was not the case but I believe that this question has not been asked and answered thus far in this hunting tragedy !

And ps. if I was USD 80 k out of pocket, I would have been on a plane to Lusaka by now with USD 5 k in my pocket for a lawyer to draft an acknowledgment of debt and visit three or four banks! And believe me I am not joking on this point!


.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Ok, let us get to reality now.

Which one of you, being in Andrew's position, would pay $80,000 from his own pocket?

I would . This episode, including way he has handled it, has not been good for his reputation. It cannot be good for his business. How many people have posted here that they would not go with Andrew after this?

ever think he does not have the 80,000 to do just that. Nothing I have seen before this shit show would make me think he would not do it if he was able. Lets see just coming of years of covid stopping guys for going, Then a season mostly lost because of govt screwing up a hunting season, Looses he camp and who knows all what else also. Believe it or not everyone is not as well off as a few guys on here. Trust me as many guys that have decide not to may go with him to hunt to . A bunch of us also realize how many haters are on here now just trying to make it even worse for him. I know I lost alot of respect for guys I use to think were ok on here.

I know I saw a comment on one of these thread that it is not like the guy is only out 8000.00 he is out 80,000. Just know 8000 is even alot to some of us and more then a few of you come across as ass holes. I feel bad for anyone who gets taken for any amount. I hope the client gets all 80,000 back plus andrew gets to make a living yet. For those that feel bad and have an extra 80,000 laying around please send it since your all perfect and it will make you look great.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie64:
And ps. if I was USD 80 k out of pocket, I would have been on a plane to Lusaka by now with USD 5 k in my pocket for a lawyer to draft an acknowledgment of debt and visit three or four banks! And believe me I am not joking on this point!

. . . good point. Andrew says he has been in court the last month litigating other issues. Has he suggested to or worked with Corey to get legal help in Zambia to help secure the refund of the $80,000? I doubt it. Sounds to me like he doesn’t want to do anything to burn any bridges with Ibi, even if that means leaving Corey hanging.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Not a unique event ... a (rifle) customer of mine booked a leopard hunt with someone in Zim (directly, not through me), sent a large deposit, Zimbo absconded with his and others' deposits.

This would suggest that sending deposits to Africa is a very bad idea.

On the other hand, operators cannot afford to have a client cancel with no recourse or deposit on hand. There are only so many days in a season and so many animals on quota, and in most cases the lease is paid in advance as is the quota.

This calls for a third neutral party with capital reserves to hold and disburse deposit money, like a letter of credit. When you deliver the hunt, you get the money. Or a hunt insurance scheme of some sort.

What would you, or others, pay for that service?

Being a foreign party in an African court case is spending good money after lost money. I am just monitoring/watching other African court cases and they have stretch on for years sometimes more than 10 years. That takes money to stay the course, usually the cases are dismissed as the cost of traveling to an African country many times for your case continues to mount. When you would appear the case would be continued out to a future date and the process begins again. And at what time would like to cut your loss.

The attorneys on here are well aware of court cases being dropped, because the out put of funds to support the case will exceed the dollar amount recovered. This happens all the time. Again this case would be in Africa and not the USA. in the end the only party making any money is the attorneys.

How many time have we experienced a good to great hunt and recommended the person who we hunted with. I know that I have, and others on here have also. Anytime you post a hunt review you are making a recommendation for others to book a hunt with the guide/PH you hunted with.

Most hunting locations have quota on game animals that are availabe. Now this Quota is book out many years in some areas. deposits are paid to have your name on the books. some times the PH you booked with will lose their concession. Tanzania, Zambia and Zimbabwe have had the concessions change hands over night and from time to time. Again, other countries have had issues and hunting seasons have been lost.

The political changes change from year to year, nothing stays the same.

Bwana 338 hit the nail on the head. Some of those commenting have only experienced law in western countries.
In Zambia, if you catch a poacher you have to make it worth a police officer's while to make an arrest. In Cameroon you have to pay the judge to convict.
In some African countries you only get a concession if you have the right political connections. In Zambia the government changed in 2021 so Ibraham's connections to the old government were no longer helpful. Obviously the new government wants it's supporters to have the lucrative concesions. Ibi's legal hold on the concession was of little account to greedy politicians.
Doing business in such a situation always carries considerable risk. As soon as I send money off to Africa I consider it gone. I know what it means to sit in an airport in Dar es Salaam for hours hoping someone will eventually turn up. (They did, 3 hours late!)
I paid for a hunt in Uganda in full a week before travel in 2020 and the next day covid closed all travel out of NZ. I haven't had that hunt. I still trust the PH involved to do his best to make it happen. Just as I trust Andrew to put all the pressure on Ibi to pay up as soon as he can, but if I was poor CME I wouldn't be holding my breath in anticipation.
Andrew Baldry has operated for many years in Zambia in a precarious political, legal and financial environment. Despite what has happened I would still consider him one of the safer operators in Zambia to book with, but I would send the money to him personally!

Other than public pressure, I see no real legal remedy for CME. Let us assume, you could get this into a Fed Court in the uS. Good deal, you are going to get a judgment against someone you cannot enforce the judgement against.

At CME’s expense we have learned some valuable lessons stated previously, but I reiterate:

1) Contract and if guy are going to send money do so with an agent in the US;
2) When substantial sums are requested up front, insist on Escrow (preferably in the US) with language stating to whom and what conditions funds shall be disbursed;
3) We need to start insisting on Act of God, concession availability, cancelled or lost quota when quota is reserved up front for due compensation clause that refunds the client when the bottom falls out. Of course, this can be pro rated for services actually rendered like pre-bating.
And for me
4) Stsy away from Zambia. This has happened far too often w that country. I shot doubles last year w a guy who lost his shirt when lion hunting in Zambia fall apart. He never saw a refund from the Booking Agent nor concession holder either.

Now this is really going to make folks mad, I have never seen on here CMS be accused of accepting near 6 figures up front, and not providing a hunt for the consideration made.

At the very least, the concession holder/outfitter does not appear like a viable business entity when he cannot procure a mere 80k business loan/capital to resolve this timely. Outfitting anywhere is a very capital intensive endeavor, I have been told.

Getting a judgement is one thing. Collecting is another .

Hence, why I stated a judgement one cannot enforce.

I hope that CME gets his money back.

You and I are in complete agreement.

I hate to comment on this dumpster fire...but Charlie64 asked the question above that is the only one that matters. Who knew "what and when" the final $20k was requested.

As an unapologetic southern plaintiffs lawyer, I see the answer to that question as the one that's puts the venom in the verdict.

My $0.02.

quote:

Originally posted by SCLawyer:
I hate to comment on this dumpster fire...but Charlie64 asked the question above that is the only one that matters. Who knew "what and when" the final $20k was requested.

As an unapologetic southern plaintiffs lawyer, I see the answer to that question as the one that's puts the venom in the verdict.

My $0.02.

Andrew has edited the original answer to that question.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie64:
And ps. if I was USD 80 k out of pocket, I would have been on a plane to Lusaka by now with USD 5 k in my pocket for a lawyer to draft an acknowledgment of debt and visit three or four banks! And believe me I am not joking on this point!

. . . good point. Andrew says he has been in court the last month litigating other issues. Has he suggested to or worked with Corey to get legal help in Zambia to help secure the refund of the $80,000? I doubt it. Sounds to me like he doesn’t want to do anything to burn any bridges with Ibi, even if that means leaving Corey hanging.

Mike, you need to check your statements with Cme. Litigation is the last resort and will further delay payments. The only deposit I encouraged was the initial payment to secure the hunt. As a freelance hunter, I recommend a variety of concessions best suited to the client's needs. Chanjuzi was chosen as 19 concessions had been previously closed including those surrounding this concession. I believe all client deposits had been paid by April and I was notified of the Chanjuzi injunction in early June when I was hunting. There was then the process of reshuffling and repayments with Cme being the last. I suggested to Cme that we had ample time to sit it out and hunt later in the season.

Yes if I had the money I would buy the hunt and I can only presume the Operator is experiencing financial difficulties or possibly waiting for the Government to re-award his concession as the injunction has now been lifted.

The Operator informed me that he had reached an agreement with Cme but my interference at this stage would most likely exacerbate proceedings.

I do not work on commissions or inflated trophy fees and rely purely on daily rates and Tips.

Considering the amount of money repaid and Ibi's response to facilitate the transfers to other operators I have no doubt this last debt will be repaid albeit at a later date.

Ibi chose me as his preferred hunter as he had previously had problems with others who had purchased hunts.