quote:

Originally posted by 1tohuntafrica:
I am Mike Drazan, Chris's brother and partner on this hunt. While Martin has finally responded on-line and to Chris, he has not addressed my issues and has not been truthful about the facts which I will address below.

1. The hunt was never planned as a 2 x 1 it was always 1 x 1. Martin and Dalton were coming to hunt with us individually because Chris had asked to hunt with Martin and I wanted to hunt with Dalton (as I had a great hunt with him in November of 2015 in Zimbabwe). In fact, they both sent us requests (which we have in email) requesting that we bring rifles for them to back us up during the hunt as they did not feel they could get weapons through Botswana on the drive over. When we got to camp only Vaughn Fulton was there as a PH. This was arranged by Martin not us.

2. Chris and I paid Martin $90,000US (yes a premium) for this hunt. All monies have been paid to Martin. He was charged $58,000 for dailies and my elephant trophy fee. He has decided not to pay the trophy fee to Camelthorn out of the $90K we paid him. Martin then emailed me asking for more money for the trophy fee. I had asked Martin for a refund of all my monies except the dailies for Camelthorn. I based this request on the fact that we paid for a 1x1 hunt and he and Dalton did not make it to the hunt. I expected him to refund the the difference in cost, but he said no. Chris (who Martin would talk to) asked for $22K but Martin said only $17,500 and never paid it and then came back asking me for more money. Unfortunately, Camelthorn and me are getting stiffed in this deal.

3. (Martin comments:Chris was never charged a trophy fee as he did not shoot an elephant.) This is true. However, it is worth pointing out that he had less than a fair shot at an elephant when the hunt changed from 2 concessions to 1 and from a 1 x 1 hunt to a 2 x 1 hunt. My brother was gracious enough to let me shoot the one shootable elephant that we saw as I had never taken an elephant before. I also want to note that when we arrived in camp both Vaughn and Felix of Camelthorn told us to lower our expectations on elephant size as Felix had already told one of his clients to not come and hunt due to the drought. Vaughn did a great job with us under very poor circumstances and I managed to get a elephant in the high 40lbs.

4. (Martin comments: I, along with Dalton and the two cameramen were denied entry into Namibia based on the immigration officials assumption we were going to work. This was despite the fact that we had an invitation letter, and had a receipt showing we had paid observer fees to the Namibian outfitter. Immigration officials have the power to deny entry, this should not have happened, but it did. It can happen on arrival at any country, the USA included.) I wont argue this point, other than to say Martin should have offered us a refund on his cost at this point and communicated this at the outset.

5. (Martin comments: I, more that anyone, know the laws of conducting a hunt in another country, I was on the hunt to ’ accompany ‘ the Namibian licenced PH, this occurs very often in Africa in foreign countries and the 2 PH’s work together for the better of the client and the hunt.) If this was true, why was there only one PH in camp? Why did they ask us to bring rifles for them to back us up? Ultimately when they could not get in country, why no refund?

6. (Martin comments: Contrary to what Chris posted initially, Zimbabweans do not require a Visa to enter Namibia hence the accusation that I did not apply for a visa is incorrect. I never applied nor wished for a work permit ( these are granted under special conditions and are hard to obtain ).) Chris did not post this I did. I used the wrong phrase (sorry). Martin agreed to hunt as PH with Chris and have Dalton PH for me. Shame on me for not understanding that he could not PH in Namibia. Shame on Martin for telling us he could and never correcting that in communication after being asked directly.

7. (Martin comments: After the hunt, Chris and I discussed what went wrong and agreed to disagree and we settled on a refund of $ 17 500 plus a return hunt at cost in Zimbabwe with one of my PH’s ( Pierre ). This was in the pipeline until Chris emailed and said no, he would rather ruin my career.) Chris and I have discussed this hunt repeatedly. We have analyzed what we did wrong and then tried to work out a settlement with Martin. Martin has been unwilling to engage with me, but responded to my brothers suggestion by reducing a refund to $17,500 and only for Chris. He said he wont refund me any money because I got my elephant. If that is true, why will he not pay Camelthorn the trophy fee? Chris has never been paid as well. Only after all of this did we feel it was best to go on-line and communicate to the hunting community what we have experienced to ensure no other hunters have this issue. I have used this forum to research hunting outfitters as well and it helps to get accurate references. The lesson I learned is just because you have a relationship with an outfitter (i hunted with Martin Pieters Safaris twice before with Dalton doing a great job as PH) it does not mean you should fully trust them and not do the required due diligence or pay all monies until hunt is complete. I have no doubt that the current economic conditions in Zimbabwe contributed to this issue.

8. (Martin comments: Mike completed his hunt with a good elephant and hence no reimbursement was discussed with him.) This is not true, I have asked repeatedly for reimbursement. That changed when he did not pay Camelthorn, I stopped asking for anything and asked him to pay them their trophy fee. He has refused.

It is unfortunate that Martin feels wronged as we have continued to try and salvage this trip from the moment we arrived in JoBurg and found out everything had changed. Not refunding us fees when he did not show up, not paying the outfitter he arranged and posting misleading facts will continue to cause trouble for us all. This is a sunk cost to me and a tough lesson learned. I only hope our willingness to put the facts about us paying up front and trusting blindly in our outfitter will protect others from this kind of mistake.

Regards
Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Two sides to every story. The truth generally lies somewhere in between.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I believe I won't do business with anyone who wants 90k sent to Africa before the hunt begins...this practice needs to stop. The way business is done between safari company and future client has always left me scratching my head.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I believe I won't do business with anyone who wants 90k sent to Africa before the hunt begins...this practice needs to stop. The way business is done between safari company and future client has always left me scratching my head.

What business can you possibly do with anyone?
You are just an idiot.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I believe I won't do business with anyone who wants 90k sent to Africa before the hunt begins...this practice needs to stop. The way business is done between safari company and future client has always left me scratching my head.

What business can you possibly do with anyone?
You are just an idiot.

An idiot that can hunt with CMS if I so choose...how about you? Any African outfitters begging you to come hunt?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I believe I won't do business with anyone who wants 90k sent to Africa before the hunt begins...this practice needs to stop. The way business is done between safari company and future client has always left me scratching my head.

What business can you possibly do with anyone?
You are just an idiot.

An idiot that can hunt with CMS if I so choose...how about you? Any African outfitters begging you to come hunt?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I believe I won't do business with anyone who wants 90k sent to Africa before the hunt begins...this practice needs to stop. The way business is done between safari company and future client has always left me scratching my head.

What business can you possibly do with anyone?
You are just an idiot.

An idiot that can hunt with CMS if I so choose...how about you? Any African outfitters begging you to come hunt?

+1000. With that awesome response, I would call it a day.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by larryshores:
A poll asking who believes who would be interesting.[/QUOTE

I believe George

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

quote:

Originally posted by royal27:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

I'd like to know if the 100% trophy fee pricing includes airfare.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Mike you have your facts very wrong.
Your trophy fees were only due after the hunt and IF you shot your elephant.
You paid daily rates only.
The trophy fees were due AFTER the hunt , I suggest you go through it again.
As for the rest, you speculate a lot and assume more,
Your argument is based on your perception and not the complete facts.

The hunt was booked and paid for as a 1 x 1, it was changed on site by Chris and Mike as per the email below from John Harris

As for the hunt being changed to a 2 x 1...


Hi Martin,
Thanks for the response.
Please refer my mail where they chose to hunt together (which incidentally helped as far as having a cameraperson to film their hunt) .

Regards

John Harris

Cellular: +27 83 638 3006 | E-Mail: john@harrissafaris.com
Postal: P.O. Box 853, Gillitts, 3603, KZN, RSA
<image001.png>


Again, I apologised then and I do again for the poor communication that led to this.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
This isn't getting any better.

George, they are now suggesting lithium twice daily to get your schizoid-effective disorder under control. Cognitive dissonance can be a good thing on lithium.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Here's a thought.

It appears that Martin's organization is essentially a booking agent in this case, promises of attending as a PH put aside.

There's a long thread on Blair's action as a booking agent and certainly no one reading this needs a refresher on that situation.

I know of one booking agent that occasionally comes on here, not as often any longer, who used company reserves to reimburse clients when the rare situation of an outfit not being able to deliver the hunt as booked. That resulted in quite a loss for the booking agent but guess what? Their reputation is still intact AND they retained the clients and as a result got even more clients by word of mouth, me being one.

Just something to think about.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

Someone who has not worked for their safari money will have trouble understanding.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
At the risk of sounded like a jackass, does 90k in daily rates strike anyone as being wrong or wtf. I mean 1k a day for 14 days says something is wrong. Even 21 days does not get you to 90k. These guys had to pay more than daily rates.

Heym 450/400: give him hell.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

Someone who has not worked for their safari money will have trouble understanding.

Damn so I am independently wealthy and never worked. I guess the 80-90 hour work weeks in the OR for 36 years as an anesthesiologist were just for fun, huh. Of course being retired now it's the big fat social security checks that keep me afloat and pay for expensive safaris( exwives and divorce lawyers got most of the retirement savings ) George, you really need to get on meds for your psych problems. Of course, they won't fix or help stupidity....

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

Someone who has not worked for their safari money will have trouble understanding.

Damn so I am independently wealthy and never worked. I guess the 80-90 hour work weeks in the OR for 36 years as an anesthesiologist were just for fun, huh. Of course being retired now it's the big fat social security checks that keep me afloat and pay for expensive safaris( exwives and divorce lawyers got most of the retirement savings ) George, you really need to get on meds for your psych problems. Of course, they won't fix or help stupidity....

Another twisted med.I'll bet you waisted even your retirement checks and are living off of you dead papas money.My psychotic brain can sense you out from a mile away you scumbag.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

Someone who has not worked for their safari money will have trouble understanding.

Damn so I am independently wealthy and never worked. I guess the 80-90 hour work weeks in the OR for 36 years as an anesthesiologist were just for fun, huh. Of course being retired now it's the big fat social security checks that keep me afloat and pay for expensive safaris( exwives and divorce lawyers got most of the retirement savings ) George, you really need to get on meds for your psych problems. Of course, they won't fix or help stupidity....

Another twisted med.I'll bet you waisted even your retirement checks and are living off of you dead papas money.My psychotic brain can sense you out from a mile away you scumbag.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

Someone who has not worked for their safari money will have trouble understanding.

Damn so I am independently wealthy and never worked. I guess the 80-90 hour work weeks in the OR for 36 years as an anesthesiologist were just for fun, huh. Of course being retired now it's the big fat social security checks that keep me afloat and pay for expensive safaris( exwives and divorce lawyers got most of the retirement savings ) George, you really need to get on meds for your psych problems. Of course, they won't fix or help stupidity....

Another twisted med.I'll bet you waisted even your retirement checks and are living off of you dead papas money.My psychotic brain can sense you out from a mile away you scumbag.

These comments from Shootaway - only AR member who I think has had earned the rare distinction of being called a liar by his professional hunter on AR

One of a kind.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
At the risk of sounded like a jackass, does 90k in daily rates strike anyone as being wrong or wtf. I mean 1k a day for 14 days says something is wrong. Even 21 days does not get you to 90k. These guys had to pay more than daily rates.

Heym 450/400: give him hell.

No. It was a trophy elephant bull hunt for two people. That is $45K a person. It was in Namibia, one of the few remaining countries that US citizens can import ivory from. People are paying much, much more for trophy elephant bull hunts in areas like the Nyae Nyae.

I guess my question would be, even if it is high, who cares? They chose to book the hunt. My understanding has always been the value of an item is what a willing buyer will pay for it and what a willing seller will sell it for. Now we are going to criticize outfitters based on what they charge even though the clients willingly pay it? If that is the case, let's start with Tanzania.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

Someone who has not worked for their safari money will have trouble understanding.

Damn so I am independently wealthy and never worked. I guess the 80-90 hour work weeks in the OR for 36 years as an anesthesiologist were just for fun, huh. Of course being retired now it's the big fat social security checks that keep me afloat and pay for expensive safaris( exwives and divorce lawyers got most of the retirement savings ) George, you really need to get on meds for your psych problems. Of course, they won't fix or help stupidity....

Another twisted med.I'll bet you waisted even your retirement checks and are living off of you dead papas money.My psychotic brain can sense you out from a mile away you scumbag.

These comments from Shootaway - only AR member who I think has had earned the rare distinction of being called a liar by his professional hunter on AR

One of a kind.

Mike

really?? can you post a link so I can see it?

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

Someone who has not worked for their safari money will have trouble understanding.

Damn so I am independently wealthy and never worked. I guess the 80-90 hour work weeks in the OR for 36 years as an anesthesiologist were just for fun, huh. Of course being retired now it's the big fat social security checks that keep me afloat and pay for expensive safaris( exwives and divorce lawyers got most of the retirement savings ) George, you really need to get on meds for your psych problems. Of course, they won't fix or help stupidity....

Another twisted med.I'll bet you waisted even your retirement checks and are living off of you dead papas money.My psychotic brain can sense you out from a mile away you scumbag.

These comments from Shootaway - only AR member who I think has had earned the rare distinction of being called a liar by his professional hunter on AR

One of a kind.

Mike

really?? can you post a link so I can see it?

This very thread you pathetic liar

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
Had I been a principal in CMS Shootaway would had to book elsewhere for his hunts. Not only did CMS stand up for him on this forum when everyone was given him the deserved business, they also had him as back as a client.

Sometimes the water is muddy, and sometimes it is clear. What is clear is that Shootaway years after the fact is being very ungrateful to CMS.

I have only had one ten word sentence with Mr. Charlton. Don't know if that disqualifies or enhances my observation.


LHEYM- That I think is the hard part. You are correct if you go back through posts you will see that I did stick up for George many times trying, wrongfully it turned out, to justify some of his rather strange actions or comments. I gave him the benefit of doubt that he was just a "little different."

One failed hunt in a year that we had 2 failed ele hunts out of 15 (not only in Dande) and after Georges 4 previously very successful hunts and George knifes me in the back. There are other guys on the forum that stuck up for George and have had the same treatment.

Like I have always said on tips- its a personal matter and what George wants to or does not want to tip is entirely up to him(and will not affect the amount of effort put into his next hunt. I think 5 return hunts proves that!) However saying he pays his trackers before hunts is BS! Also saying he paid a game scout $600 can only mean that something transpired on the hunt that I am not aware of and was dealt with a somewhat questionable manner.

On Georges comments on " too many asshole clients" - If memory serves me correct you only shared camp once and that was your first hunt with Allan and that was in Chirisa when owned by HHK. Ross Johnstone was a Ph in that camp with you and he said to me something that I took to heart- "please never let George share camp with other clients- its just not fair on them!"

George we stuck by you through thick and thin even paying compensation and loosing a buff tag when you clearly shot a buffalo cow despite been clearly told by Blake not to. Your own video you posted proves that!!

I think the only truthful comment you made is " You WILL NOT be hunting with CMS again" After 20 years of hunting you have joined an elite club of one- of clients I will not have back!!



Chris- I am sorry to have detracted form you post but there comes a time when I can't bite my tongue any longer! I am even more sorry that you had a bad experience. A safari is after all a holiday and meant to be enjoyed something that I am sure at least we agree on.


Well said Buzz.

Your professionalism was holding your tongue so long.

But shootaway is a pathetic liar and I am glad you have called him out.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

Someone who has not worked for their safari money will have trouble understanding.

Damn so I am independently wealthy and never worked. I guess the 80-90 hour work weeks in the OR for 36 years as an anesthesiologist were just for fun, huh. Of course being retired now it's the big fat social security checks that keep me afloat and pay for expensive safaris( exwives and divorce lawyers got most of the retirement savings ) George, you really need to get on meds for your psych problems. Of course, they won't fix or help stupidity....

Another twisted med.I'll bet you waisted even your retirement checks and are living off of you dead papas money.My psychotic brain can sense you out from a mile away you scumbag.

These comments from Shootaway - only AR member who I think has had earned the rare distinction of being called a liar by his professional hunter on AR

One of a kind.

Mike

really?? can you post a link so I can see it?

This very thread you pathetic liar

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
Had I been a principal in CMS Shootaway would had to book elsewhere for his hunts. Not only did CMS stand up for him on this forum when everyone was given him the deserved business, they also had him as back as a client.

Sometimes the water is muddy, and sometimes it is clear. What is clear is that Shootaway years after the fact is being very ungrateful to CMS.

I have only had one ten word sentence with Mr. Charlton. Don't know if that disqualifies or enhances my observation.


LHEYM- That I think is the hard part. You are correct if you go back through posts you will see that I did stick up for George many times trying, wrongfully it turned out, to justify some of his rather strange actions or comments. I gave him the benefit of doubt that he was just a "little different."

One failed hunt in a year that we had 2 failed ele hunts out of 15 (not only in Dande) and after Georges 4 previously very successful hunts and George knifes me in the back. There are other guys on the forum that stuck up for George and have had the same treatment.

Like I have always said on tips- its a personal matter and what George wants to or does not want to tip is entirely up to him(and will not affect the amount of effort put into his next hunt. I think 5 return hunts proves that!) However saying he pays his trackers before hunts is BS! Also saying he paid a game scout $600 can only mean that something transpired on the hunt that I am not aware of and was dealt with a somewhat questionable manner.

On Georges comments on " too many asshole clients" - If memory serves me correct you only shared camp once and that was your first hunt with Allan and that was in Chirisa when owned by HHK. Ross Johnstone was a Ph in that camp with you and he said to me something that I took to heart- "please never let George share camp with other clients- its just not fair on them!"

George we stuck by you through thick and thin even paying compensation and loosing a buff tag when you clearly shot a buffalo cow despite been clearly told by Blake not to. Your own video you posted proves that!!

I think the only truthful comment you made is " You WILL NOT be hunting with CMS again" After 20 years of hunting you have joined an elite club of one- of clients I will not have back!!



Chris- I am sorry to have detracted form you post but there comes a time when I can't bite my tongue any longer! I am even more sorry that you had a bad experience. A safari is after all a holiday and meant to be enjoyed something that I am sure at least we agree on.


Well said Buzz.

Your professionalism was holding your tongue so long.

But shootaway is a pathetic liar and I am glad you have called him out.

Mike

Hey moron,
Can you tell me the name of my PH and show me where he said I was a liar?

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
At the risk of sounded like a jackass, does 90k in daily rates strike anyone as being wrong or wtf. I mean 1k a day for 14 days says something is wrong. Even 21 days does not get you to 90k. These guys had to pay more than daily rates.

Heym 450/400: give him hell.

No. It was a trophy elephant bull hunt for two people. That is $45K a person. It was in Namibia, one of the few remaining countries that US citizens can import ivory from. People are paying much, much more for trophy elephant bull hunts in areas like the Nyae Nyae.

I guess my question would be, even if it is high, who cares? They chose to book the hunt. My understanding has always been the value of an item is what a willing buyer will pay for it and what a willing seller will sell it for. Now we are going to criticize outfitters based on what they charge even though the clients willingly pay it? If that is the case, let's start with Tanzania.

Mike,
You are mistaken on the costs. $45K for daily rate is extremely high for that part of the Caprivi. That is over $3,200/day. I've elephant hunted several areas in the Caprivi, and never paid anywhere near $3,200/day. You may get over $2,500/day in if you are hunting in the Bwabwata National Park, but you will not pay anywhere near that premium for areas around Bamunu.

I'm looking at a trophy elephant bull hunt in Nyae Nyae, and the daily rate on a 14 day hunt is $2,500/day or $35K.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

Someone who has not worked for their safari money will have trouble understanding.

Damn so I am independently wealthy and never worked. I guess the 80-90 hour work weeks in the OR for 36 years as an anesthesiologist were just for fun, huh. Of course being retired now it's the big fat social security checks that keep me afloat and pay for expensive safaris( exwives and divorce lawyers got most of the retirement savings ) George, you really need to get on meds for your psych problems. Of course, they won't fix or help stupidity....

Another twisted med.I'll bet you waisted even your retirement checks and are living off of you dead papas money.My psychotic brain can sense you out from a mile away you scumbag.

These comments from Shootaway - only AR member who I think has had earned the rare distinction of being called a liar by his professional hunter on AR

One of a kind.

Mike

really?? can you post a link so I can see it?

This very thread you pathetic liar

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
Had I been a principal in CMS Shootaway would had to book elsewhere for his hunts. Not only did CMS stand up for him on this forum when everyone was given him the deserved business, they also had him as back as a client.

Sometimes the water is muddy, and sometimes it is clear. What is clear is that Shootaway years after the fact is being very ungrateful to CMS.

I have only had one ten word sentence with Mr. Charlton. Don't know if that disqualifies or enhances my observation.


LHEYM- That I think is the hard part. You are correct if you go back through posts you will see that I did stick up for George many times trying, wrongfully it turned out, to justify some of his rather strange actions or comments. I gave him the benefit of doubt that he was just a "little different."

One failed hunt in a year that we had 2 failed ele hunts out of 15 (not only in Dande) and after Georges 4 previously very successful hunts and George knifes me in the back. There are other guys on the forum that stuck up for George and have had the same treatment.

Like I have always said on tips- its a personal matter and what George wants to or does not want to tip is entirely up to him(and will not affect the amount of effort put into his next hunt. I think 5 return hunts proves that!) However saying he pays his trackers before hunts is BS! Also saying he paid a game scout $600 can only mean that something transpired on the hunt that I am not aware of and was dealt with a somewhat questionable manner.

On Georges comments on " too many asshole clients" - If memory serves me correct you only shared camp once and that was your first hunt with Allan and that was in Chirisa when owned by HHK. Ross Johnstone was a Ph in that camp with you and he said to me something that I took to heart- "please never let George share camp with other clients- its just not fair on them!"

George we stuck by you through thick and thin even paying compensation and loosing a buff tag when you clearly shot a buffalo cow despite been clearly told by Blake not to. Your own video you posted proves that!!

I think the only truthful comment you made is " You WILL NOT be hunting with CMS again" After 20 years of hunting you have joined an elite club of one- of clients I will not have back!!



Chris- I am sorry to have detracted form you post but there comes a time when I can't bite my tongue any longer! I am even more sorry that you had a bad experience. A safari is after all a holiday and meant to be enjoyed something that I am sure at least we agree on.


Well said Buzz.

Your professionalism was holding your tongue so long.

But shootaway is a pathetic liar and I am glad you have called him out.

Mike

Hey moron,
Can you tell me the name of my PH and show me where he said I was a liar?

Check when Blake posted on AR and your memorable open sighted cow shooting.

George you are a pathetic loser - the worst possible client an outfitter or gunmaker can have. No one would ever sell you any services without cash proceeds up front.

Try selling anything on AR classified and your reputation as a pathetic liar will be reconfirmed.

Mike