quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:

For may part, I will post no more documentation on the subject as both parties have ’submitted facts to a candid world”.

quote:

In addition to the contract - perhaps an amendment – set forth the specific elements of the hunt that are material to the clients expectations (e.g., facilities, amenities, game availability, etc.)

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
I’ve not ‘riden off ‘, I’ve simply lost track of the post. But I've caught up. Mike, you seem really smart but terribly cynical. I understand that you're an attorney, so is combination of traits 'correlation' or 'causation'?

Martin suggested we knew of the change, but he simply told us we had the option of Bumunu as a third concession and not as the sole area to hunt, and hence my pushing him on when we arrived in Johannesburg. That should seem obvious.

For may part, I will post no more documentation on the subject as both parties have ’submitted facts to a candid world”. You may decide who amongst us is being forthright based on that. Just understand that I would never post something in a public forum unless I was absolutely sure of the facts and have the documentation to back it up. For obvious reasons. If that seems insufficient, Saeed should delete the thread immediately.

All of that aside, I DO think the thread within my post about contracts, booking, risk mitigation, etc. IS good. There are a lot of folks on AR who bring both technical expertise and experience. I’ve given a lot of thought to this and will start a thread with some ideas that protect both the client AND the outfitter. I believe there is a role for a 3rd (or 4th) party around contracts, dispute resolution, funds management, etc. in this industry. Please tell me not to if this has been done before.

Lastly and hopefully a more positive note, I’ve received many PMs with respect to this incident. I have no experience with Martin’s areas beyond the Omay, but when asked “should I hunt the Omay with Martin Pieters?” my answer is and will be this:

YES, absolutely. It is a fantastic area with good buffalo (challenging, but very rewarding, hippo, croc, and exceptional cat hunting. It’s really a jewel and I’ve had great experiences with the camp staff, PHs, and Chris. If someone wants pictures or specifics, simply PM me.

But with these CAVEATS –

Have a contract
In addition to the contract - perhaps an amendment – set forth the specific elements of the hunt that are material to the clients expectations (e.g., facilities, amenities, game availability, etc.)
Work with a booking agent that is perhaps mutually agreed upon to minimally, manage funds transfers and dispute resolution
Understand who your PH will be a get references on him or her.
Be clear on trophy expectations if that is of major concern

To be clear, this is what I will do with ANY hunt in the future to protect both me and the outfitter and eliminate ‘communication’ issues.

So, that’s all from me.

Best,

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by 1tohuntafrica:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
I’ve not ‘riden off ‘, I’ve simply lost track of the post. But I've caught up. Mike, you seem really smart but terribly cynical. I understand that you're an attorney, so is combination of traits 'correlation' or 'causation'?

Martin suggested we knew of the change, but he simply told us we had the option of Bumunu as a third concession and not as the sole area to hunt, and hence my pushing him on when we arrived in Johannesburg. That should seem obvious.

For may part, I will post no more documentation on the subject as both parties have ’submitted facts to a candid world”. You may decide who amongst us is being forthright based on that. Just understand that I would never post something in a public forum unless I was absolutely sure of the facts and have the documentation to back it up. For obvious reasons. If that seems insufficient, Saeed should delete the thread immediately.

All of that aside, I DO think the thread within my post about contracts, booking, risk mitigation, etc. IS good. There are a lot of folks on AR who bring both technical expertise and experience. I’ve given a lot of thought to this and will start a thread with some ideas that protect both the client AND the outfitter. I believe there is a role for a 3rd (or 4th) party around contracts, dispute resolution, funds management, etc. in this industry. Please tell me not to if this has been done before.

Lastly and hopefully a more positive note, I’ve received many PMs with respect to this incident. I have no experience with Martin’s areas beyond the Omay, but when asked “should I hunt the Omay with Martin Pieters?” my answer is and will be this:

YES, absolutely. It is a fantastic area with good buffalo (challenging, but very rewarding, hippo, croc, and exceptional cat hunting. It’s really a jewel and I’ve had great experiences with the camp staff, PHs, and Chris. If someone wants pictures or specifics, simply PM me.

But with these CAVEATS –

Have a contract
In addition to the contract - perhaps an amendment – set forth the specific elements of the hunt that are material to the clients expectations (e.g., facilities, amenities, game availability, etc.)
Work with a booking agent that is perhaps mutually agreed upon to minimally, manage funds transfers and dispute resolution
Understand who your PH will be a get references on him or her.
Be clear on trophy expectations if that is of major concern

To be clear, this is what I will do with ANY hunt in the future to protect both me and the outfitter and eliminate ‘communication’ issues.

So, that’s all from me.

Best,

Chris

I like Chris feel I have shared the facts for all that care to learn from my mistakes.

I would hunt in Martins area again with Dalton Tink, as he has been a great PH for me and the Omay area is a great hunting area.

That said I would make sure we have a formal agreement matching my expectations and clearly defining the outfitters obligations.

Mike

quote:

I would hunt in Martins area again with Dalton Tink, as he has been a great PH

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
Would I hunt with Martin Pieters Safaris? Under the right circumstances, definitely. (just the same as the OP)

But I will definitely have at least a verbal agreement that I will NOT be sharing camp with George Shootaway.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
quote
Meaning; Martin Pieters is to be avoided?

For me, yes.

Based on my reading of the situation as described by the OP and Martin I would pass on Martin's services for my future hunts. Time and $ are too precious to take a chance on hunting with someone that doesn't do all they could of to fix a situation.

When an outfitter sells a hunt they are responsible for delivering what they sold.

One of the best attributes of this site are all the hunt reports, good and bad from all who post. The ability to draw on the experiences of all who post here is invaluable.

There have been many reports over the years that have helped me avoid certain outfitters.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Folks,
Many of you know me and some don't, there are bound to be some gripes along the line, some of which I know about, others not, unfortunately despite giving my best efforts as an operator, sometimes bad reports arise, some justifiable, others not.

A lot of what Chris has said is true and we tried to resolve it immediately poor to and during the hunt.
There are a lot of missing pieces in Chris's accusation of which I have documentation to prove.
A couple of small facts.
1. I was never going to PH then hunt, I was going to accompany the hunt, that I got denied entry into Namibia based on the immigration officials presumption that I was going to work was a nightmare, same occurred to Dalton and the 2 cameramen on the way into Namibia.
2. After the hunt, Chris and I discussed some reimbursing, of which we agreed on a figure, but prior to me sending it, he decided a personal attack against me would be better.
3. His brother Mike shot his elephant, and then refused to pay the trophy fee quoted, so I put him straight onto the outfitter to make payment to import his tusks ( my fee was higher perhaps that is one reason ).

Not to justify anything, however, I was sold one area and given another ( paperwork to prove it ).

I would like to go into more detail, however the documents were handed over to my attorney after Chris decided to attack me publicly and at my booth without knowing ALL the details.
I apologise to him as I did many times and had hoped we could have worked it out.
Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
Would I hunt with Martin Pieters Safaris? Under the right circumstances, definitely. (just the same as the OP)

But I will definitely have at least a verbal agreement that I will NOT be sharing camp with George Shootaway.

OK that's good.On the subject of sharing camp with people,I have been lucky to share camp with great people.I enjoyed the company of all of them and I have been inspired by some.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
Would I hunt with Martin Pieters Safaris? Under the right circumstances, definitely. (just the same as the OP)

But I will definitely have at least a verbal agreement that I will NOT be sharing camp with George Shootaway.

OK that's good.On the subject of sharing camp with people,I have been lucky to share camp with great people.I enjoyed the company of all of them and I have been inspired by some.

I thought you posted earlier that you had been forced to share a camp with some asshole clients. Get your stories straight.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
Would I hunt with Martin Pieters Safaris? Under the right circumstances, definitely. (just the same as the OP)

But I will definitely have at least a verbal agreement that I will NOT be sharing camp with George Shootaway.

OK that's good.On the subject of sharing camp with people,I have been lucky to share camp with great people.I enjoyed the company of all of them and I have been inspired by some.

I thought you posted earlier that you had been forced to share a camp with some asshole clients. Get your stories straight.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Just curious, but we have two gentlemen who have paperwork to prove their points so why is it not posted?
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Just curious, but we have two gentlemen who have paperwork to prove their points so why is it not posted?
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Convenient huh.

If they were seriously entertaining a lawsuit their lawyer would have told them not to post a damn thing and certainly not engage in a back and forth on the issue. Yes, I'm a cynic. The motivation was retribution from the outset; it had nothing to do with providing a public service. My view only of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Both of the parties (clients and outfitter) have emails, text messages, gun permit applications, hunting license, hunting contracts and other documentation.

This needs to move beyond a "he said she said" story. Someone needs to post documentation otherwise both parties reputation is suspect.

At least this thread has reconfirmed Shootaway's status as the forum __________

Mike

quote:

If there were a village, completely comprised of village idiots, George would be that village's idiot. Roll Eyes

Formerly "Nganga"

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
I didn't read the whole thread but I have to say that I find Chris posts very clear and fair. i hope you and Martin can come to an agreement! After all it looks like Martin got cheated as well.

It is amazing how many posts here are offtopic. @Shootaway could you just open your own thread and start posting your issues with CMS there. It is VERY annoying here for anyone who is trying to follow this issue here.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Convenient huh.

If they were seriously entertaining a lawsuit their lawyer would have told them not to post a damn thing and certainly not engage in a back and forth on the issue. Yes, I'm a cynic. The motivation was retribution from the outset; it had nothing to do with providing a public service. My view only of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
I didn't read the whole thread but I have to say that I find Chris posts very clear and fair. i hope you and Martin can come to an agreement! After all it looks like Martin got cheated as well.

It is amazing how many posts here are offtopic. @Shootaway could you just open your own thread and start posting your issues with CMS there. It is VERY annoying here for anyone who is trying to follow this issue here.