quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Had I been a principal in CMS Shootaway would had to book elsewhere for his hunts. Not only did CMS stand up for him on this forum when everyone was given him the deserved business, they also had him as back as a client.

Sometimes the water is muddy, and sometimes it is clear. What is clear is that Shootaway years after the fact is being very ungrateful to CMS.

I have only had one ten word sentence with Mr. Charlton. Don't know if that disqualifies or enhances my observation.

LHEYM- That I think is the hard part. You are correct if you go back through posts you will see that I did stick up for George many times trying, wrongfully it turned out, to justify some of his rather strange actions or comments. I gave him the benefit of doubt that he was just a "little different."

One failed hunt in a year that we had 2 failed ele hunts out of 15 (not only in Dande) and after Georges 4 previously very successful hunts and George knifes me in the back. There are other guys on the forum that stuck up for George and have had the same treatment.

Like I have always said on tips- its a personal matter and what George wants to or does not want to tip is entirely up to him(and will not affect the amount of effort put into his next hunt. I think 5 return hunts proves that!) However saying he pays his trackers before hunts is BS! Also saying he paid a game scout $600 can only mean that something transpired on the hunt that I am not aware of and was dealt with a somewhat questionable manner.

On Georges comments on " too many asshole clients" - If memory serves me correct you only shared camp once and that was your first hunt with Allan and that was in Chirisa when owned by HHK. Ross Johnstone was a Ph in that camp with you and he said to me something that I took to heart- "please never let George share camp with other clients- its just not fair on them!"

George we stuck by you through thick and thin even paying compensation and loosing a buff tag when you clearly shot a buffalo cow despite been clearly told by Blake not to. Your own video you posted proves that!!

I think the only truthful comment you made is " You WILL NOT be hunting with CMS again" After 20 years of hunting you have joined an elite club of one- of clients I will not have back!!



Chris- I am sorry to have detracted form you post but there comes a time when I can't bite my tongue any longer! I am even more sorry that you had a bad experience. A safari is after all a holiday and meant to be enjoyed something that I am sure at least we agree on.

Well said Buzz.

Your professionalism was holding your tongue so long.

But shootaway is a pathetic liar and I am glad you have called him out.

Mike

Anyone who knows me will tell you that I am no liar.The only one here that is pathetic is you.

quote:

Anyone who knows me will tell you that I am no liar.The only one here that is pathetic is you

Dude...you're the only guy in CMS history to be blackballed from ever returning. I'm at a loss for words on how big d-bag you must be. I've always felt bad that you were/are picked on so much, but maybe you had it coming.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Bravo to Chris for posting this.If there were more like him who came out with their negative experiences we would all have a better time on our african safaris.I might just one day post a list of all the things I didn't like about my hunts.But I guess I better wait until I have more posts and there is no show near before I get accused of wanting retribution.

The difference is he layed out specific details of his grievance...you took a cheap shot at CMS who we know ..by your own hunt report...you had a good hunt with.

You say that going on a full priced, two week ele bull hunt with them and not seeing a 35lbs bull is good hunt?Then being told by your PH a few months later that he has not seen a single bull track in the area for months and that he will refuse taking ele bull clients.My bull hunt took place in an area that was shot out and I was never warned that there was a good chance that I would not see or get a bull.I trusted them and I got shafted.Now you or anyone can take that and make whatever you want out of it.

I would ordinarily not do this but the truth of the matter was you not could close the deal on a good bull because your toes were too blistered and you quit. Bad form to blame CMS.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Bravo to Chris for posting this.If there were more like him who came out with their negative experiences we would all have a better time on our african safaris.I might just one day post a list of all the things I didn't like about my hunts.But I guess I better wait until I have more posts and there is no show near before I get accused of wanting retribution.

The difference is he layed out specific details of his grievance...you took a cheap shot at CMS who we know ..by your own hunt report...you had a good hunt with.

You say that going on a full priced, two week ele bull hunt with them and not seeing a 35lbs bull is good hunt?Then being told by your PH a few months later that he has not seen a single bull track in the area for months and that he will refuse taking ele bull clients.My bull hunt took place in an area that was shot out and I was never warned that there was a good chance that I would not see or get a bull.I trusted them and I got shafted.Now you or anyone can take that and make whatever you want out of it.

I would ordinarily not do this but the truth of the matter was you not could close the deal on a good bull because your toes were too blistered and you quit. Bad form to blame CMS.

Wow that is the first time I heard that one.That was one of the times I had been most in shape in my life.Infact I was told by my PH that a couple of his trackers had sore feet from all the walking and I was complimented.I was told that "you are certainly not scared of walking" and "only one of two clients who can walk the whole hunt next to their PH".That I had blisters on my toes...wow that is a laugh.I had a blisters in Makuti(and it was very minor) but not in Dande.What a sad liar you are Bunduki-and a medical professional too.Makes me glad to not have to share a camp with you.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Bravo to Chris for posting this.If there were more like him who came out with their negative experiences we would all have a better time on our african safaris.I might just one day post a list of all the things I didn't like about my hunts.But I guess I better wait until I have more posts and there is no show near before I get accused of wanting retribution.

The difference is he layed out specific details of his grievance...you took a cheap shot at CMS who we know ..by your own hunt report...you had a good hunt with.

You say that going on a full priced, two week ele bull hunt with them and not seeing a 35lbs bull is good hunt?Then being told by your PH a few months later that he has not seen a single bull track in the area for months and that he will refuse taking ele bull clients.My bull hunt took place in an area that was shot out and I was never warned that there was a good chance that I would not see or get a bull.I trusted them and I got shafted.Now you or anyone can take that and make whatever you want out of it.

I would ordinarily not do this but the truth of the matter was you not could close the deal on a good bull because your toes were too blistered and you quit. Bad form to blame CMS.

Wow that is the first time I heard that one.That was one of the times I had been most in shape in my life.Infact I was told by my PH that a couple of his trackers had sore feet from all the walking and I was complimented.I was told that you are certainly not scared of walking and only one of two clients who can walk the whole hunt next to their PH.That I had blisters on my toes...wow that is a laugh.I had a blisters in Makuti(and it was very minor) but not in Dande.

Wow a liar and a quitter. At least you don't use a scope or shooting sticks.


Mike

George simply doesn't know when to shut up. And a better description of him than douche bag is douchenozzle.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
George simply doesn't know when to shut up. And a better description of him than douche bag is douchenozzle.

An even better description of George is FuckStick!

Abandoning all judgement I will stick my head into this shitstorm.
I have no opinion on the issues in the troubles between Chris and Martin Peters.
CMS, however, in the course of five DG hunts, have always been square and on the level. I will hunt with them again in 2018, and am glad to count Buzz and Myles as friends.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
This thread has evolved in classic AR fashion....nicely done gentlemen..nicely done.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Had I been a principal in CMS Shootaway would had to book elsewhere for his hunts. Not only did CMS stand up for him on this forum when everyone was given him the deserved business, they also had him as back as a client.

Sometimes the water is muddy, and sometimes it is clear. What is clear is that Shootaway years after the fact is being very ungrateful to CMS.

I have only had one ten word sentence with Mr. Charlton. Don't know if that disqualifies or enhances my observation.

LHEYM- That I think is the hard part. You are correct if you go back through posts you will see that I did stick up for George many times trying, wrongfully it turned out, to justify some of his rather strange actions or comments. I gave him the benefit of doubt that he was just a "little different."

One failed hunt in a year that we had 2 failed ele hunts out of 15 (not only in Dande) and after Georges 4 previously very successful hunts and George knifes me in the back. There are other guys on the forum that stuck up for George and have had the same treatment.

Like I have always said on tips- its a personal matter and what George wants to or does not want to tip is entirely up to him(and will not affect the amount of effort put into his next hunt. I think 5 return hunts proves that!) However saying he pays his trackers before hunts is BS! Also saying he paid a game scout $600 can only mean that something transpired on the hunt that I am not aware of and was dealt with a somewhat questionable manner.

On Georges comments on " too many asshole clients" - If memory serves me correct you only shared camp once and that was your first hunt with Allan and that was in Chirisa when owned by HHK. Ross Johnstone was a Ph in that camp with you and he said to me something that I took to heart- "please never let George share camp with other clients- its just not fair on them!"

George we stuck by you through thick and thin even paying compensation and loosing a buff tag when you clearly shot a buffalo cow despite been clearly told by Blake not to. Your own video you posted proves that!!

I think the only truthful comment you made is " You WILL NOT be hunting with CMS again" After 20 years of hunting you have joined an elite club of one- of clients I will not have back!!



Chris- I am sorry to have detracted form you post but there comes a time when I can't bite my tongue any longer! I am even more sorry that you had a bad experience. A safari is after all a holiday and meant to be enjoyed something that I am sure at least we agree on.

Well, Georgie boy, at least you're in an elite group, by yourself.

Damn, Mr. Charlton, I don't know you, but you are a class act. I'm too old, but perhaps my son can enjoy one of your hunts before long.

He runs an excellent outfit of top notch people. Joyce and I really enjoyed sharing some time with him. Your son will not be disappointed.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Shootaway- please clarify why you would not hunt with us after your last hunt. We have given you several excellent hunts , entertained some somewhat interesting behavior on your behalf to say the least and always given you 100% as we do for every client! Here is your chance George!!!

Too many asshole clients for one.

George, you've got too many mirrors in your home. There's really only one of you.

Well, just when I'd had about all I can take of this thread...

Along comes Todd to save the day! Todd, thanks for the best post on this thread.

What I have gotten from this thread is the following:

The OP has very valid reasons to be complaining about his hunt, however I don´t think many people would have advised him to do a namibian elephant hunt through a Zimbabwe PH, he should have booked and kept contact with Felix from the beginning to know exactly what he was getting into.

Based on past posts by very respectable members of this forum Martin Pieters run a very good operation on his own areas and would definitely hunt with the man there, and from what was shown, not all the problems of this hunt were his direct fault but at the end of the day were his responsibility.

I have nothing against shoot away but his claims against CMS are unfair,mainly due to the fact that he has had some very fine hunts with them before, also CMS has a very fine reputation thanks to the fact that MANY AR members have had fine hunts with them, no different than with Mr. Baldry, the Duckworths or Mr. Labbat.
I have NO african experience but soley in what I know I would not hunt the zambezi valley were George hunted if it was an ABSOLUTE priority for me to shoot a bull to be happy, if i wanted an authentic african tracking hunting experience and chances at a bull I would, if i needed a bull to be happy i would save some more and book with them in kazuma or the save. Glad george shot his bull in Mozambique if not he would likely be talking badly about Richard and his outfit as well.

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:
Glad george shot his bull in Mozambique if not he would likely be talking badly about Richard and his outfit as well.

Give him time.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
George simply doesn't know when to shut up. And a better description of him than douche bag is douchenozzle.

An even better description of George is FuckStick!

You would make a great Australian Todd

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:
Glad george shot his bull in Mozambique if not he would likely be talking badly about Richard and his outfit as well.

Give him time.

Yup

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Uff-da

Talking Norwegian Heym?

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
It seems I've unintentionally started a thread on 'forum favorites'.

Shall we discuss "active bred lion hunting in South Africa" or "what's the best all around caliber for Africa" next?

How about "hound hunting for leopard" or the "right tip amount"?

See, I really do read AR.

I have to ask, even though I should keep out of the discussion. Why did you even agree to hunt? If the area was changed and it was to be 1 x 1 and now 2 x 1. I would never have even started this hunt. Changed gears and done something else.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
It seems I've unintentionally started a thread on 'forum favorites'.

Shall we discuss "active bred lion hunting in South Africa" or "what's the best all around caliber for Africa" next?

How about "hound hunting for leopard" or the "right tip amount"?

See, I really do read AR.

I have to ask, even though I should keep out of the discussion. Why did you even agree to hunt? If the area was changed and it was to be 1 x 1 and now 2 x 1. I would never have even started this hunt. Changed gears and done something else.

Whatever the reason, if there is a chance that the hunt will turn out very disappointing, the client should be warned before or it should not be offered by the outfitter plain and simple.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
It seems I've unintentionally started a thread on 'forum favorites'.

Shall we discuss "active bred lion hunting in South Africa" or "what's the best all around caliber for Africa" next?

How about "hound hunting for leopard" or the "right tip amount"?

See, I really do read AR.

I have to ask, even though I should keep out of the discussion. Why did you even agree to hunt? If the area was changed and it was to be 1 x 1 and now 2 x 1. I would never have even started this hunt. Changed gears and done something else.

Whatever the reason, if there is a chance that the hunt will turn out very disappointing, the client should be warned before or it should not be offered by the outfitter plain and simple.

Perhaps you should only go on guaranteed high fence hunts George. All fair chase hunts can be unsuccessful.

I don't know if you have a financial interest in the hunting industry or you just have a lot of money to burn.This is how I go about spending my money on African safaris.

A long read - but wanted to be sure nothing new sprang up from page one.

Cross country , cross outfitter hunts are booked all the time and more now, than before due to many big game countries closing and limited quotas esp export trophies.

That being said - outfitters will mostly see the situation for the reality that it is and hunters will be defensive as it could happen to them, and agents will come out rubbing their hands as it provides good marketing fodder.

I know Martin as a PH and outfitter and a person , and lets not loose sight of the last one - a person - and people cannot control the actions of others no matter how they hope to .

The hunter has hunted with his outfit a few times - but MPS go's from hero to zero . I always have a problem with that . Since Botswana closed and we are on recess I have had much time to reflect on this = Hero or Zero.
It comes from the false hype of come as a client leave as a friend. And I mean this from the client (hunters ) side. In this case MPS was only a friend so long as the relationship was problem free and MPS performed his matrimony duties.

I have seen this movie often and have served on both sides - the outfitter concessionaire providing camps and services to outfitters who sold hunts to clients and been the outfitter booking a hunt to another concession - it happens more than you will ever know. Mostly outfitters will only do this with past clients who have requested a hunt they cannot provide on their own concession. New bookings are easily referred and the referal commission makes it possible. But when a PH/outfitter takes a hunter to another country it usually is for return hunters and one that the outfitter is comfortable taking to a situation out of their control .

At this point the outfitter has no control over anything and Namibia seems to be the place most things go wrong , I have had 3 blow up because of the Namibian outfitter changing the goal posts. Expectations now are three dimensional and only the Namibian outfitter walks away smiling.

I can guess to MPS situation - he will have lost a client and not made any moola , the Namibian has. For inside information its unethical for any sub agent to correspond or deal with any client without consulting the primary outfitter EVER. To do so is with the only intention to steal the client - Americans have the apt saying - Ride for the brand .

That being said we are left with the he said she said - only the paper trail will reveal the contractual obligations.

For some reason here on ARF - a hero can go to zero , you gotta think why

It is obvious that some people feel that clients should not even look at success rates or question if they are accurate and that they should just go and pay no matter what.I feel just the opposite.In todays world, the cost of free chase hunting should have a 100% trophy fee-that is I pay only if I shoot my animal.

As far as I know, one only pays the trophy fee if an animal is shot.

quote:

A long read - but wanted to be sure nothing new sprang up from page one.

Cross country , cross outfitter hunts are booked all the time and more now, than before due to many big game countries closing and limited quotas esp export trophies.

That being said - outfitters will mostly see the situation for the reality that it is and hunters will be defensive as it could happen to them, and agents will come out rubbing their hands as it provides good marketing fodder.

I know Martin as a PH and outfitter and a person , and lets not loose sight of the last one - a person - and people cannot control the actions of others no matter how they hope to .

The hunter has hunted with his outfit a few times - but MPS go's from hero to zero . I always have a problem with that . Since Botswana closed and we are on recess I have had much time to reflect on this = Hero or Zero.
It comes from the false hype of come as a client leave as a friend. And I mean this from the client (hunters ) side. In this case MPS was only a friend so long as the relationship was problem free and MPS performed his matrimony duties.

I have seen this movie often and have served on both sides - the outfitter concessionaire providing camps and services to outfitters who sold hunts to clients and been the outfitter booking a hunt to another concession - it happens more than you will ever know. Mostly outfitters will only do this with past clients who have requested a hunt they cannot provide on their own concession. New bookings are easily referred and the referal commission makes it possible. But when a PH/outfitter takes a hunter to another country it usually is for return hunters and one that the outfitter is comfortable taking to a situation out of their control .

At this point the outfitter has no control over anything and Namibia seems to be the place most things go wrong , I have had 3 blow up because of the Namibian outfitter changing the goal posts. Expectations now are three dimensional and only the Namibian outfitter walks away smiling.

I can guess to MPS situation - he will have lost a client and not made any moola , the Namibian has. For inside information its unethical for any sub agent to correspond or deal with any client without consulting the primary outfitter EVER. To do so is with the only intention to steal the client - Americans have the apt saying - Ride for the brand .

That being said we are left with the he said she said - only the paper trail will reveal the contractual obligations.

For some reason here on ARF - a hero can go to zero , you gotta think why

Perhaps you need to actually read my report. I've never hunted with Martin and never considered him a "friend". He booked my hunts but never made it to camp while I was there. Ever. I do consider some of his PHs friends, but do you you really for a moment that anyone should get away with this behavior just became I had 2 other problem free hunts? This wasn't a exactly an issue with how the evening meal was prepared. This is many thousands of dollars.

By the way, Martin and his colleagues took our money . . . the Nam outfitter - if they got paid at all - got paid a number substantially lower than what we paid Martin.

Virtue? I think not.

Based on the number of PMs I've received (A LOT),

I would recommend that anyone interested in hunting with Martin Pieters simply ask the question to the forum members "I'm planning a hunt. Do any of you have experiences with Martin Pieters. Please PM me."

You'll get a lot a very helpful information.

Chris

I'll pipe in
Original author, I can feel his pain
Also we all know if you going after DG, it's fricking expensive so if you worry much about money, don't do it
Anything can happen, kinda like " Do you feel lucky punk?"
Rest of it...
This is funny

quote:

I'll pipe in
Original author, I can feel his pain
Also we all know if you going after DG, it's fricking expensive so if you worry much about money, don't do it
Anything can happen, kinda like " Do you feel lucky punk?"
Rest of it...
This is funny

I'm not worried about the money pre se, but rather not getting the hunt I paid for. Book your hunt, make your deposits, and then hope you're lucky you'll get the hunt you paid for? Sounds like a good plan going forward .... not.

I am also happy to answer questions about my hunt with MP Safaris via PN.

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:

For some reason here on ARF - a hero can go to zero , you gotta think why

We have a saying here, "one aw shit wipes out a career of attaboys". I think it is just a reflection of societal changes where many things, including relationships, have become more disposable, expendable . . . are today viewed more in a commercial context. Used to be people earned chits for good experiences, things done right, lending a helping hand, etc. and when you hit a tough spot, while some of those chits might get called, the person still had a credit balance. Now the tendency is for that tough spot to resort in the call of all the chits. I think what it shows is that most relationships, including most client-outfitter relationships, are viewed today as purely commercial relationships despite all the frequent and flowery talk of friendship, trust, welcome in my home, etc. . . . and I think that is true viewed from both the client's and the outfitter's perspective. The outfitter is just as good as his last hunt for the client and the client is just as good as the last check he wrote to the outfitter.

I am guilty, I am guilty of poor correspondence leading up to this safari that is a fact, of this I apologized before, during and after the hunt to Chris.
I am not guilty of the witch hunt that Chris’s post has led to which has been based on speculation and assumptions.
I was sold area A, of which I sold onto my clients, later in the year, the area changed, and I was assured that it was for the better as the initial area was dry and there were ‘ plenty of elephant in the new area’.
I asked several times and was always assured that there were abundant elephant and some of the biggest bulls they have seen recently have often been spotted. I should have done more research based on my 24 years experience and of this I am highly embarrassed.

Facts

1. The hunt was always 1 x 1, Chris decided to hunt 2 x 1 on the ground for whatever reason (this is factual because I questioned the outfitter and they emailed me this response ).
2. Mike was charged the quoted trophy fee as he shot his elephant bull, he refused to pay and in order to comply with Namibian authorities and sort export of the ivory, I handed over correspondence to the Namibian outfitter for a direct payment.
3. Chris was never charged a trophy fee as he did not shoot an elephant.
4. I, along with Dalton and the two cameramen were denied entry into Namibia based on the immigration officials assumption we were going to work. This was despite the fact that we had an invitation letter, and had a receipt showing we had paid observer fees to the Namibian outfitter. Immigration officials have the power to deny entry, this should not have happened, but it did. It can happen on arrival at any country, the USA included.
5. I, more that anyone, know the laws of conducting a hunt in another country, I was on the hunt to ’ accompany ‘ the Namibian licenced PH, this occurs very often in Africa in foreign countries and the 2 PH’s work together for the better of the client and the hunt.
6. Contrary to what Chris posted initially, Zimbabweans do not require a Visa to enter Namibia hence the accusation that I did not apply for a visa is incorrect. I never applied nor wished for a work permit ( these are granted under special conditions and are hard to obtain ).
7. After the hunt, Chris and I discussed what went wrong and agreed to disagree and we settled on a refund of $ 17 500 plus a return hunt at cost in Zimbabwe with one of my PH’s ( Pierre ). This was in the pipeline until Chris emailed and said no, he would rather ruin my career.
8.Mike completed his hunt with a good elephant and hence no reimbursement was discussed with him.

I am not happy nor proud of what happened, have learnt a valuable lesson, lost clients and have a black mark on my abilities, I believe we were on route to salvaging this issue, however the false accusations and assumptions that have made me out to be a thief have led to where we are now.

Regards
Martin

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
A long read - but wanted to be sure nothing new sprang up from page one.

Cross country , cross outfitter hunts are booked all the time and more now, than before due to many big game countries closing and limited quotas esp export trophies.

That being said - outfitters will mostly see the situation for the reality that it is and hunters will be defensive as it could happen to them, and agents will come out rubbing their hands as it provides good marketing fodder.

I know Martin as a PH and outfitter and a person , and lets not loose sight of the last one - a person - and people cannot control the actions of others no matter how they hope to .

The hunter has hunted with his outfit a few times - but MPS go's from hero to zero . I always have a problem with that . Since Botswana closed and we are on recess I have had much time to reflect on this = Hero or Zero.
It comes from the false hype of come as a client leave as a friend. And I mean this from the client (hunters ) side. In this case MPS was only a friend so long as the relationship was problem free and MPS performed his matrimony duties.

I have seen this movie often and have served on both sides - the outfitter concessionaire providing camps and services to outfitters who sold hunts to clients and been the outfitter booking a hunt to another concession - it happens more than you will ever know. Mostly outfitters will only do this with past clients who have requested a hunt they cannot provide on their own concession. New bookings are easily referred and the referal commission makes it possible. But when a PH/outfitter takes a hunter to another country it usually is for return hunters and one that the outfitter is comfortable taking to a situation out of their control .

At this point the outfitter has no control over anything and Namibia seems to be the place most things go wrong , I have had 3 blow up because of the Namibian outfitter changing the goal posts. Expectations now are three dimensional and only the Namibian outfitter walks away smiling.

I can guess to MPS situation - he will have lost a client and not made any moola , the Namibian has. For inside information its unethical for any sub agent to correspond or deal with any client without consulting the primary outfitter EVER. To do so is with the only intention to steal the client - Americans have the apt saying - Ride for the brand .

That being said we are left with the he said she said - only the paper trail will reveal the contractual obligations.

For some reason here on ARF - a hero can go to zero , you gotta think why

Completely missed the point that the hunter was not informed of known issues until he landed on African soil. That's the entire point I do believe. Yes, it's Africa. Nothing ever goes off 100% as planned. You roll with the changes and "make a plan". But when significant changes occur, the guy paying the bill should be informed as soon as possible and given an opportunity to make a determination as to whether or not to press forward. And I'd call going from a 2x2 to 2x1 hunt to be significant, not to mention going from 2 concessions to 1, with the 1 not being one of the original two concessions. Waiting until he is on the ground is disingenuous at best.

If Martin's "paperwork" proves that he was only informed of these changes after Chris arrived, then the fault is with the Namib outfitter. If he knew earlier but failed to inform the client, yep ... straight to Zero status!!

Want to bring CMS back into the discussion? My last African hunt was an ele bull hunt in the Zambezi Valley with CMS. Earlier in the year, one of Buzz's repeat clients canceled on his booked Ngamo hunt. This fellow had made several Ngamo hunts with Buzz in the years preceding. I agreed to take the hunt. A couple of months prior to the hunt, the guy decided he could actually make the hunt so Buzz asked me if I would be willing to give up the slot and go to Dande instead. I agreed. The price was adjusted accordingly and I had plenty of time to know the situation and make a decision. AND, Buzz stated upfront, that it was my decision to stay with the Ngamo hunt or give it away. Full disclosure with plenty of time and an adjustment of fees to reflect the different expectations of the different areas. THAT is one of the many reasons why CMS is so staunchly defended on this forum.

Martin,

For the first time, a true acknowledgment of the how the hunt went down. Thank you for that.

I can provide information to the forum to refute points 1, 5, and 7. But I'll do that with Martin face-to-face or via PM unless, Martin, you would like me to provide data to the contrary. I'm not sure I want to do that nor do you want me to.

Lastly, destroying your career was never my intent, so please don't blame me for an issue I did not create.

You may call me when convenient. I'm on a plane now for a few hours.

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
I am guilty, I am guilty of poor correspondence leading up to this safari that is a fact, of this I apologized before, during and after the hunt to Chris.
I am not guilty of the witch hunt that Chris’s post has led to which has been based on speculation and assumptions.
I was sold area A, of which I sold onto my clients, later in the year, the area changed, and I was assured that it was for the better as the initial area was dry and there were ‘ plenty of elephant in the new area’.
I asked several times and was always assured that there were abundant elephant and some of the biggest bulls they have seen recently have often been spotted. I should have done more research based on my 24 years experience and of this I am highly embarrassed.

Facts

1. The hunt was always 1 x 1, Chris decided to hunt 2 x 1 on the ground for whatever reason (this is factual because I questioned the outfitter and they emailed me this response ).
2. Mike was charged the quoted trophy fee as he shot his elephant bull, he refused to pay and in order to comply with Namibian authorities and sort export of the ivory, I handed over correspondence to the Namibian outfitter for a direct payment.
3. Chris was never charged a trophy fee as he did not shoot an elephant.
4. I, along with Dalton and the two cameramen were denied entry into Namibia based on the immigration officials assumption we were going to work. This was despite the fact that we had an invitation letter, and had a receipt showing we had paid observer fees to the Namibian outfitter. Immigration officials have the power to deny entry, this should not have happened, but it did. It can happen on arrival at any country, the USA included.
5. I, more that anyone, know the laws of conducting a hunt in another country, I was on the hunt to ’ accompany ‘ the Namibian licenced PH, this occurs very often in Africa in foreign countries and the 2 PH’s work together for the better of the client and the hunt.
6. Contrary to what Chris posted initially, Zimbabweans do not require a Visa to enter Namibia hence the accusation that I did not apply for a visa is incorrect. I never applied nor wished for a work permit ( these are granted under special conditions and are hard to obtain ).
7. After the hunt, Chris and I discussed what went wrong and agreed to disagree and we settled on a refund of $ 17 500 plus a return hunt at cost in Zimbabwe with one of my PH’s ( Pierre ). This was in the pipeline until Chris emailed and said no, he would rather ruin my career.
8.Mike completed his hunt with a good elephant and hence no reimbursement was discussed with him.

I am not happy nor proud of what happened, have learnt a valuable lesson, lost clients and have a black mark on my abilities, I believe we were on route to salvaging this issue, however the false accusations and assumptions that have made me out to be a thief have led to where we are now.

Regards
Martin

Pretty difficult to argue that you did not do everything in your power to unscrew a screw up. That is all that anyone can ask of an outfitter and unfortunately, that does not always happen.

The way I understand it, a change of location was made, the client questioned it, and was told that is only for paperwork sake??

My compliments to Martin for a through explanation of this hunt. Like any business or profession there are several truisms (1) its a short distance between the penthouse and the outhouse. (2)No good deed goes unpunished. Martin has been in the business a good number of years and has and is viewed as a reputable outfitter. Although I don't know Martin, he is certainly someone to put on the short list to hunt with in his area of operations.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
Martin,

For the first time, a true acknowledgment of the how the hunt went down. Thank you for that.

I can provide information to the forum to refute points 1, 5, and 7. But I'll do that with Martin face-to-face or via PM unless, Martin, you would like me to provide data to the contrary. I'm not sure I want to do that nor do you want me to.

Lastly, destroying your career was never my intent, so please don't blame me for an issue I did not create.

You may call me when convenient. I'm on a plane now for a few hours.

Chris

To refute point 5 - you are basically saying the former head of the zimbabwe professional hunter association was illegally hunting in Namibia.

As some who has always given the Zim guys a break and always said they are the most professional hunters in Africa your allegation is pretty damning.

If what you are saying is true pretty much moots all the complaints about South African guys illegally hunting in Zim.

A lot of serious stuff has been said on this thread - it is best for the AR community to have all the facts in the open.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
I am guilty, I am guilty of poor correspondence leading up to this safari that is a fact, of this I apologized before, during and after the hunt to Chris.
I am not guilty of the witch hunt that Chris’s post has led to which has been based on speculation and assumptions.
I was sold area A, of which I sold onto my clients, later in the year, the area changed, and I was assured that it was for the better as the initial area was dry and there were ‘ plenty of elephant in the new area’.
I asked several times and was always assured that there were abundant elephant and some of the biggest bulls they have seen recently have often been spotted. I should have done more research based on my 24 years experience and of this I am highly embarrassed.

Facts

1. The hunt was always 1 x 1, Chris decided to hunt 2 x 1 on the ground for whatever reason (this is factual because I questioned the outfitter and they emailed me this response ).
2. Mike was charged the quoted trophy fee as he shot his elephant bull, he refused to pay and in order to comply with Namibian authorities and sort export of the ivory, I handed over correspondence to the Namibian outfitter for a direct payment.
3. Chris was never charged a trophy fee as he did not shoot an elephant.
4. I, along with Dalton and the two cameramen were denied entry into Namibia based on the immigration officials assumption we were going to work. This was despite the fact that we had an invitation letter, and had a receipt showing we had paid observer fees to the Namibian outfitter. Immigration officials have the power to deny entry, this should not have happened, but it did. It can happen on arrival at any country, the USA included.
5. I, more that anyone, know the laws of conducting a hunt in another country, I was on the hunt to ’ accompany ‘ the Namibian licenced PH, this occurs very often in Africa in foreign countries and the 2 PH’s work together for the better of the client and the hunt.
6. Contrary to what Chris posted initially, Zimbabweans do not require a Visa to enter Namibia hence the accusation that I did not apply for a visa is incorrect. I never applied nor wished for a work permit ( these are granted under special conditions and are hard to obtain ).
7. After the hunt, Chris and I discussed what went wrong and agreed to disagree and we settled on a refund of $ 17 500 plus a return hunt at cost in Zimbabwe with one of my PH’s ( Pierre ). This was in the pipeline until Chris emailed and said no, he would rather ruin my career.
8.Mike completed his hunt with a good elephant and hence no reimbursement was discussed with him.

I am not happy nor proud of what happened, have learnt a valuable lesson, lost clients and have a black mark on my abilities, I believe we were on route to salvaging this issue, however the false accusations and assumptions that have made me out to be a thief have led to where we are now.

Regards
Martin

Pretty difficult to argue that you did not do everything in your power to unscrew a screw up. That is all that anyone can ask of an outfitter and unfortunately, that does not always happen.

"Where do I go to get my reputation back" never rang so true.

Two sides to every story. The truth generally lies somewhere in between.

Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

I am Mike Drazan, Chris's brother and partner on this hunt. While Martin has finally responded on-line and to Chris, he has not addressed my issues and has not been truthful about the facts which I will address below.

1. The hunt was never planned as a 2 x 1 it was always 1 x 1. Martin and Dalton were coming to hunt with us individually because Chris had asked to hunt with Martin and I wanted to hunt with Dalton (as I had a great hunt with him in November of 2015 in Zimbabwe). In fact, they both sent us requests (which we have in email) requesting that we bring rifles for them to back us up during the hunt as they did not feel they could get weapons through Botswana on the drive over. When we got to camp only Vaughn Fulton was there as a PH. This was arranged by Martin not us.

2. Chris and I paid Martin $90,000US (yes a premium) for this hunt. All monies have been paid to Martin. He was charged $58,000 for dailies and my elephant trophy fee. He has decided not to pay the trophy fee to Camelthorn out of the $90K we paid him. Martin then emailed me asking for more money for the trophy fee. I had asked Martin for a refund of all my monies except the dailies for Camelthorn. I based this request on the fact that we paid for a 1x1 hunt and he and Dalton did not make it to the hunt. I expected him to refund the the difference in cost, but he said no. Chris (who Martin would talk to) asked for $22K but Martin said only $17,500 and never paid it and then came back asking me for more money. Unfortunately, Camelthorn and me are getting stiffed in this deal.

3. (Martin comments:Chris was never charged a trophy fee as he did not shoot an elephant.) This is true. However, it is worth pointing out that he had less than a fair shot at an elephant when the hunt changed from 2 concessions to 1 and from a 1 x 1 hunt to a 2 x 1 hunt. My brother was gracious enough to let me shoot the one shootable elephant that we saw as I had never taken an elephant before. I also want to note that when we arrived in camp both Vaughn and Felix of Camelthorn told us to lower our expectations on elephant size as Felix had already told one of his clients to not come and hunt due to the drought. Vaughn did a great job with us under very poor circumstances and I managed to get a elephant in the high 40lbs.

4. (Martin comments: I, along with Dalton and the two cameramen were denied entry into Namibia based on the immigration officials assumption we were going to work. This was despite the fact that we had an invitation letter, and had a receipt showing we had paid observer fees to the Namibian outfitter. Immigration officials have the power to deny entry, this should not have happened, but it did. It can happen on arrival at any country, the USA included.) I wont argue this point, other than to say Martin should have offered us a refund on his cost at this point and communicated this at the outset.

5. (Martin comments: I, more that anyone, know the laws of conducting a hunt in another country, I was on the hunt to ’ accompany ‘ the Namibian licenced PH, this occurs very often in Africa in foreign countries and the 2 PH’s work together for the better of the client and the hunt.) If this was true, why was there only one PH in camp? Why did they ask us to bring rifles for them to back us up? Ultimately when they could not get in country, why no refund?

6. (Martin comments: Contrary to what Chris posted initially, Zimbabweans do not require a Visa to enter Namibia hence the accusation that I did not apply for a visa is incorrect. I never applied nor wished for a work permit ( these are granted under special conditions and are hard to obtain ).) Chris did not post this I did. I used the wrong phrase (sorry). Martin agreed to hunt as PH with Chris and have Dalton PH for me. Shame on me for not understanding that he could not PH in Namibia. Shame on Martin for telling us he could and never correcting that in communication after being asked directly.

7. (Martin comments: After the hunt, Chris and I discussed what went wrong and agreed to disagree and we settled on a refund of $ 17 500 plus a return hunt at cost in Zimbabwe with one of my PH’s ( Pierre ). This was in the pipeline until Chris emailed and said no, he would rather ruin my career.) Chris and I have discussed this hunt repeatedly. We have analyzed what we did wrong and then tried to work out a settlement with Martin. Martin has been unwilling to engage with me, but responded to my brothers suggestion by reducing a refund to $17,500 and only for Chris. He said he wont refund me any money because I got my elephant. If that is true, why will he not pay Camelthorn the trophy fee? Chris has never been paid as well. Only after all of this did we feel it was best to go on-line and communicate to the hunting community what we have experienced to ensure no other hunters have this issue. I have used this forum to research hunting outfitters as well and it helps to get accurate references. The lesson I learned is just because you have a relationship with an outfitter (i hunted with Martin Pieters Safaris twice before with Dalton doing a great job as PH) it does not mean you should fully trust them and not do the required due diligence or pay all monies until hunt is complete. I have no doubt that the current economic conditions in Zimbabwe contributed to this issue.

8. (Martin comments: Mike completed his hunt with a good elephant and hence no reimbursement was discussed with him.) This is not true, I have asked repeatedly for reimbursement. That changed when he did not pay Camelthorn, I stopped asking for anything and asked him to pay them their trophy fee. He has refused.

It is unfortunate that Martin feels wronged as we have continued to try and salvage this trip from the moment we arrived in JoBurg and found out everything had changed. Not refunding us fees when he did not show up, not paying the outfitter he arranged and posting misleading facts will continue to cause trouble for us all. This is a sunk cost to me and a tough lesson learned. I only hope our willingness to put the facts about us paying up front and trusting blindly in our outfitter will protect others from this kind of mistake.

Regards
Mike