quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I will say that I warned Buzz that one day he would regret booking George.

The hell of it is that George had no idea of the whole story of what happened due to the cow incident. It was severe .

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
At the risk of sounded like a jackass, does 90k in daily rates strike anyone as being wrong or wtf. I mean 1k a day for 14 days says something is wrong. Even 21 days does not get you to 90k. These guys had to pay more than daily rates.

Heym 450/400: give him hell.

No. It was a trophy elephant bull hunt for two people. That is $45K a person. It was in Namibia, one of the few remaining countries that US citizens can import ivory from. People are paying much, much more for trophy elephant bull hunts in areas like the Nyae Nyae.

I guess my question would be, even if it is high, who cares? They chose to book the hunt. My understanding has always been the value of an item is what a willing buyer will pay for it and what a willing seller will sell it for. Now we are going to criticize outfitters based on what they charge even though the clients willingly pay it? If that is the case, let's start with Tanzania.

Mike,
You are mistaken on the costs. $45K for daily rate is extremely high for that part of the Caprivi. That is over $3,200/day. I've elephant hunted several areas in the Caprivi, and never paid anywhere near $3,200/day. You may get over $2,500/day in if you are hunting in the Bwabwata National Park, but you will not pay anywhere near that premium for areas around Bamunu.

I'm looking at a trophy elephant bull hunt in Nyae Nyae, and the daily rate on a 14 day hunt is $2,500/day or $35K.

Do you know what the $45K included? Of course not. Besides they agreed to pay it. If I agree to pay more than the sticker price at the car dealer, is that my fault or the dealer's fault? Too many clients just like to whine . . . half the time they are whining about their own decisions.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
At the risk of sounded like a jackass, does 90k in daily rates strike anyone as being wrong or wtf. I mean 1k a day for 14 days says something is wrong. Even 21 days does not get you to 90k. These guys had to pay more than daily rates.

Heym 450/400: give him hell.

No. It was a trophy elephant bull hunt for two people. That is $45K a person. It was in Namibia, one of the few remaining countries that US citizens can import ivory from. People are paying much, much more for trophy elephant bull hunts in areas like the Nyae Nyae.

I guess my question would be, even if it is high, who cares? They chose to book the hunt. My understanding has always been the value of an item is what a willing buyer will pay for it and what a willing seller will sell it for. Now we are going to criticize outfitters based on what they charge even though the clients willingly pay it? If that is the case, let's start with Tanzania.

Mike,
You are mistaken on the costs. $45K for daily rate is extremely high for that part of the Caprivi. That is over $3,200/day. I've elephant hunted several areas in the Caprivi, and never paid anywhere near $3,200/day. You may get over $2,500/day in if you are hunting in the Bwabwata National Park, but you will not pay anywhere near that premium for areas around Bamunu.

I'm looking at a trophy elephant bull hunt in Nyae Nyae, and the daily rate on a 14 day hunt is $2,500/day or $35K.

Do you know what the $45K included? Of course not. Besides they agreed to pay it. If I agree to pay more than the sticker price at the car dealer, is that my fault or the dealer's fault? Too many clients just like to whine . . . half the time they are whining about their own decisions.

They paid for two conservancies boarding Bwabwata NP, buy they received one conservancy quite distance from Bwabwata. They paid for each to have a ribeye, but they received one hamburger instead. And Martin didn't inform them until they landed in Africa. You are just plain ole wrong this one.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
At the risk of sounded like a jackass, does 90k in daily rates strike anyone as being wrong or wtf. I mean 1k a day for 14 days says something is wrong. Even 21 days does not get you to 90k. These guys had to pay more than daily rates.

Heym 450/400: give him hell.

No. It was a trophy elephant bull hunt for two people. That is $45K a person. It was in Namibia, one of the few remaining countries that US citizens can import ivory from. People are paying much, much more for trophy elephant bull hunts in areas like the Nyae Nyae.

I guess my question would be, even if it is high, who cares? They chose to book the hunt. My understanding has always been the value of an item is what a willing buyer will pay for it and what a willing seller will sell it for. Now we are going to criticize outfitters based on what they charge even though the clients willingly pay it? If that is the case, let's start with Tanzania.

Mike,
You are mistaken on the costs. $45K for daily rate is extremely high for that part of the Caprivi. That is over $3,200/day. I've elephant hunted several areas in the Caprivi, and never paid anywhere near $3,200/day. You may get over $2,500/day in if you are hunting in the Bwabwata National Park, but you will not pay anywhere near that premium for areas around Bamunu.

I'm looking at a trophy elephant bull hunt in Nyae Nyae, and the daily rate on a 14 day hunt is $2,500/day or $35K.

Do you know what the $45K included? Of course not. Besides they agreed to pay it. If I agree to pay more than the sticker price at the car dealer, is that my fault or the dealer's fault? Too many clients just like to whine . . . half the time they are whining about their own decisions.

They paid for two conservancies boarding Bwabwata NP, buy they received one conservancy quite distance from Bwabwata. They paid for each to have a ribeye, but they received one hamburger instead. And Martin didn't inform them until they landed in Africa. You are just plain ole wrong this one.

Like I said, you have no idea what was or was not included in the $45K, you just proved it. Let the two clients post their contract and related correspondence for all to dissect. They raised the issue, let's see some transparency. Outfitters should be making list of clients on this thread to steer clear of . . . lots of aspiring whiners in wings.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
A good solution for the future would be to escrow trophy fees on condition of game harvested for area booked. However, if a client agrees to the area change that is on him. Such agreement to change areas should be executed in writing.

I do feel bad for these guys having the area changed on them, and only finding out when they get off the plane. They had 90k no matter how it was allotted already floating.

Kind of hard for them to say ah naugh and climb back on a plane. Either way the communication was more than poor with the clients stating trophy fee was included, and Mr. Pieters stated position that only daily rates were paid. That is enough for me to say thank you to the OPs.

Mr. Pieters has agreed communication was lacking. I do not think he should have anything stripped from him. I sure he does not care what I think, and I am fine with that. But bad communication is something any aspiring client would want, even need, to know about. That is what references are about.

If the OPs had chose not to bring this to the forum that would be their business/choice. I would be clueless to it, and that would be fine. They choose not to. I do not see an issue with that. Everyone work about there own salvation in fear and trembling.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Like I said, safari hunting today should be based on a 100% trophy fee pricing.That is the client pays only if they shoot their animal.That puts the client on a level playing field with the outfitter.The client need not worry of being liked by the outfitter or whatever.It is not the outfitter paying for the hunt.It is the client.Clients don't go to Africa to start shit.They go there to enjoy themselves and relax.

So are you saying a hunt should be free unless you shoot something? REALLY?? So all or nothing? What if you miss or,God forbid shoot a cow/female???

Someone who has not worked for their safari money will have trouble understanding.

Damn so I am independently wealthy and never worked. I guess the 80-90 hour work weeks in the OR for 36 years as an anesthesiologist were just for fun, huh. Of course being retired now it's the big fat social security checks that keep me afloat and pay for expensive safaris( exwives and divorce lawyers got most of the retirement savings ) George, you really need to get on meds for your psych problems. Of course, they won't fix or help stupidity....

Another twisted med.I'll bet you waisted even your retirement checks and are living off of you dead papas money.My psychotic brain can sense you out from a mile away you scumbag.

These comments from Shootaway - only AR member who I think has had earned the rare distinction of being called a liar by his professional hunter on AR

One of a kind.

Mike

really?? can you post a link so I can see it?

This very thread you pathetic liar

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
Had I been a principal in CMS Shootaway would had to book elsewhere for his hunts. Not only did CMS stand up for him on this forum when everyone was given him the deserved business, they also had him as back as a client.

Sometimes the water is muddy, and sometimes it is clear. What is clear is that Shootaway years after the fact is being very ungrateful to CMS.

I have only had one ten word sentence with Mr. Charlton. Don't know if that disqualifies or enhances my observation.


LHEYM- That I think is the hard part. You are correct if you go back through posts you will see that I did stick up for George many times trying, wrongfully it turned out, to justify some of his rather strange actions or comments. I gave him the benefit of doubt that he was just a "little different."

One failed hunt in a year that we had 2 failed ele hunts out of 15 (not only in Dande) and after Georges 4 previously very successful hunts and George knifes me in the back. There are other guys on the forum that stuck up for George and have had the same treatment.

Like I have always said on tips- its a personal matter and what George wants to or does not want to tip is entirely up to him(and will not affect the amount of effort put into his next hunt. I think 5 return hunts proves that!) However saying he pays his trackers before hunts is BS! Also saying he paid a game scout $600 can only mean that something transpired on the hunt that I am not aware of and was dealt with a somewhat questionable manner.

On Georges comments on " too many asshole clients" - If memory serves me correct you only shared camp once and that was your first hunt with Allan and that was in Chirisa when owned by HHK. Ross Johnstone was a Ph in that camp with you and he said to me something that I took to heart- "please never let George share camp with other clients- its just not fair on them!"

George we stuck by you through thick and thin even paying compensation and loosing a buff tag when you clearly shot a buffalo cow despite been clearly told by Blake not to. Your own video you posted proves that!!

I think the only truthful comment you made is " You WILL NOT be hunting with CMS again" After 20 years of hunting you have joined an elite club of one- of clients I will not have back!!



Chris- I am sorry to have detracted form you post but there comes a time when I can't bite my tongue any longer! I am even more sorry that you had a bad experience. A safari is after all a holiday and meant to be enjoyed something that I am sure at least we agree on.


Well said Buzz.

Your professionalism was holding your tongue so long.

But shootaway is a pathetic liar and I am glad you have called him out.

Mike

Hey moron,
Can you tell me the name of my PH and show me where he said I was a liar?

Check when Blake posted on AR and your memorable open sighted cow shooting.

George you are a pathetic loser - the worst possible client an outfitter or gunmaker can have. No one would ever sell you any services without cash proceeds up front.

Try selling anything on AR classified and your reputation as a pathetic liar will be reconfirmed.

Mike

I am still waiting.
As far as dealing with gunmakers I am and have always been on excellent terms with all three.
You on the other hand are a repulsive being.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Tell you what let's let the group that threw this party step up on the transparency issue. Let them post copies of the contract, the related correspondence, the details of the booking, etc. and then we can invite Martin to do the same. It's their party, serve it up.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
This is not the first screwing I heard of in Namibia in 2016. Not sure what that means if anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Tell you what let's let the group that threw this party step up on the transparency issue. Let them post copies of the contract, the related correspondence, the details of the booking, etc. and then we can invite Martin to do the same. It's their party, serve it up.

Mike,

I have a question for you, and I don't mean it to be confrontational.

I was thinking about your last post about posting the contract. Have you had proper contracts for all your hunts?

I was thinking about my previous hunts. For all of my North American hunts I've had proper contracts. For my first few African hunts, I also had contracts. However on 3 of my last 5 African hunts, we only had an email summary (or string of 3 or 4 emails) of the hunt, but not really a proper contract. We had significant changes on a couple hunts after deposits were paid. I asked to move a BVC hunt up by a year, but nothing else changed. On a 2 elephant bull hunt (trophy & non-export), about 6 weeks before the hunt the PH asked to change the location for the non-export elephant (no changes on the trophy bull hunt). No harm in either case.

All of my African hunts have went very well with no issues, unexpected costs or other surprises. To some degree, I think I have slowly become complacent. This thread has woken me up.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Tell you what let's let the group that threw this party step up on the transparency issue. Let them post copies of the contract, the related correspondence, the details of the booking, etc. and then we can invite Martin to do the same. It's their party, serve it up.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I will say that I warned Buzz that one day he would regret booking George.

The hell of it is that George had no idea of the whole story of what happened due to the cow incident. It was severe .

Can someone post a link or a brief summary of this "cow incident". I must have missed this whole thing somehow. I see the jokes from time to time but never read what actually happened

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Tell you what let's let the group that threw this party step up on the transparency issue. Let them post copies of the contract, the related correspondence, the details of the booking, etc. and then we can invite Martin to do the same. It's their party, serve it up.

The only reason for a contract is for the lawyers to make money out of it.

You have a problem with someone in Africa, and I am sure you will be paying a lawyer more than you get back.

In fact, it would be interesting to hear of anyone here having recovered money in dispute from an African outfitter through legal means.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Tell you what let's let the group that threw this party step up on the transparency issue. Let them post copies of the contract, the related correspondence, the details of the booking, etc. and then we can invite Martin to do the same. It's their party, serve it up.

The only reason for a contract is for the lawyers to make money out of it.

You have a problem with someone in Africa, and I am sure you will be paying a lawyer more than you get back.

In fact, it would be interesting to hear of anyone here having recovered money in dispute from an African outfitter through legal means.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The only company that insisted I sign a contract was an American company.

TGT.

Their contract was so one sided, there is no way in hell I would have signed it, if I was not hunting with a man I have complete trust in.

If Alan was not involved, I would not have hunted with them.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Here's a thought.

It appears that Martin's organization is essentially a booking agent in this case, promises of attending as a PH put aside.

There's a long thread on Blair's action as a booking agent and certainly no one reading this needs a refresher on that situation.

I know of one booking agent that occasionally comes on here, not as often any longer, who used company reserves to reimburse clients when the rare situation of an outfit not being able to deliver the hunt as booked. That resulted in quite a loss for the booking agent but guess what? Their reputation is still intact AND they retained the clients and as a result got even more clients by word of mouth, me being one.

Just something to think about.

Cheers
Jim

I have not felt like chiming in until now...

Would that be Wendell Reich? CLASS ACT 1000 percent. Best booking agent with whom I have ever dealt with, and no, it wasn't me who got the funds.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The only company that insisted I sign a contract was an American company.

TGT.

Their contract was so one sided, there is no way in hell I would have signed it, if I was not hunting with a man I have complete trust in.

If Alan was not involved, I would not have hunted with them.

Company might be American owned and funded. But was the legal entity you signed a contract with - was it a us entity ? And was the contract subject to governance by us contract law?

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Here's a thought.

It appears that Martin's organization is essentially a booking agent in this case, promises of attending as a PH put aside.

There's a long thread on Blair's action as a booking agent and certainly no one reading this needs a refresher on that situation.

I know of one booking agent that occasionally comes on here, not as often any longer, who used company reserves to reimburse clients when the rare situation of an outfit not being able to deliver the hunt as booked. That resulted in quite a loss for the booking agent but guess what? Their reputation is still intact AND they retained the clients and as a result got even more clients by word of mouth, me being one.

Just something to think about.

Cheers
Jim

I have not felt like chiming in until now...

Would that be Wendell Reich? CLASS ACT 1000 percent. Best booking agent with whom I have ever dealt with, and no, it wasn't me who got the funds.

I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to use Wendell but no it was Jeff Neal/Greg Brownlee.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Here's a thought.

It appears that Martin's organization is essentially a booking agent in this case, promises of attending as a PH put aside.

There's a long thread on Blair's action as a booking agent and certainly no one reading this needs a refresher on that situation.

I know of one booking agent that occasionally comes on here, not as often any longer, who used company reserves to reimburse clients when the rare situation of an outfit not being able to deliver the hunt as booked. That resulted in quite a loss for the booking agent but guess what? Their reputation is still intact AND they retained the clients and as a result got even more clients by word of mouth, me being one.

Just something to think about.

Cheers
Jim

I have not felt like chiming in until now...

Would that be Wendell Reich? CLASS ACT 1000 percent. Best booking agent with whom I have ever dealt with, and no, it wasn't me who got the funds.

I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to use Wendell but no it was Jeff Neal/Greg Brownlee.

That would be me. Jeff reimbursed me $15k on a hunt that never happened and the operator ran off with the deposit. That is why I book with Jeff and Greg.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I would not go without a contract. If nothing else, it avoids misunderstandings.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I have always settled up on trophy fees in camp at the end of the hunt or more commonly after returning home.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I would not go without a contract. If nothing else, it avoids misunderstandings.

+1

It is a written statement of expectations between client and outfitter/ph.

Its enforceability is largely moot cause none of these african jurisdictions (zim for example) have any real legal systems.

I think the right way to look at and structure high dollar price hunts - like $90K elephants hunts is how exxon invest in russia.

When exxon invest in the russian artic it had its russian partner invest in US gom assets. Then it finds an international jurisdiction and has a contract written up. When the russians decide to screw with exxon as they will do, exxon goes and seizes the JV assets in the gom according to its contract. Exxon takes the oil commodity risk as asset may be worth more or less depending on oil price.

For high dollar hunts the client and outfitter should always use a reputable booking agent. Booking agent holds daily rate and trophy fee proceeds. When hunt does according to a non enforceable but mutually agreed contract/agreement proceeds are released. Hunter takes the risk that it is hunting and 100% success is not guaranteed. Reputation of booking agent and outfitter will ensure performance.

Wiring $90K to africa and expecting all things will be worked out and a plan will be made is not for me. I will take that risk for sub $20K but beyond that I want an intermediary in there.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I think it would be valuable (perhaps in another thread) to discuss what can go wrong with a hunt from the viewpoints of the PH and the client and work up a sample contract that protects both parties. With the feedback from so many knowledgeable AR members, this may be a valuable venture.

Many here remember my thread of June and July about hunt contracts. A contract that is so one sided to the agent or PH would never work. Neither would a contract that is slanted toward the hunter. As my attorney told me regarding the contract the agent sent me, "If all goes well you won't remember the contract. If the hunt goes to shit, you will have signed away all of your rights." There must be common ground.

And, what to do about enforcement? Should the contract spell out what is to be done should one side default? I mean, it is probably worth legal time for a 90K$ hunt, but not so for most hunts.

What do you think? Is there a better course all of us can follow? Just wonderin'.
Cal