quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
AMEN TO THAT!. some people are just born a--holes and some have to mature into that category. man o man, do i wish i was perfect and never made a firearms mistake.

I agree with you JD. This fellow is just an A-Hole. But then again, I kind of figured that out by his signature line. Most combat vets I know don't go around bragging about burning up 18 year old kids with a flame thrower. Most are a bit more introspective about what they had to do in their country's service.

Todd
I am amazed to see someone so ignorant of history. You should know that photo is of the battle of Tarawa that occured in Nov 1943. Far from being a teenager he is long dead.

Sure some of you might hunt with Tim. I bet not a one of you would turn your back on him and I bet none of you would hunt with him after he shot you.

Not ignorant of history at all. I know the photo is of the battle of Tarawa. I assume you are referring to yourself being in this picture as a teenager as I have no idea how old you are. My father served in the South Pacific during WWII and is still alive at 88. Your signature line implies you were the 18 year old teenager somewhere in the picture during WWII. If that isn't the case, what is the purpose of the signature line?

Regardless, you are way off the mark concerning Tim Herald. He is a class act. He simply was involved in an accident that most of us could see happening to us under similar circumstances. Not to mention the integrity he showed by reporting the incident here.

Not only do I say I would hunt with him, I actually have put my money where my mouth is and placed the deposit to do so next August, in Moz, with the same outfitter and at the same camp where this accident took place. From what I understand, his PH which was shot, has already told him he will finish the hunt with him next year.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:


Sure some of you might hunt with Tim. I bet not a one of you would turn your back on him and I bet none of you would hunt with him after he shot you.

I just turned my back to Tim last Monday. I had to walk away from a bar table to head to the restroom. Tim neither shot me or hit me with a beer bottle. I'd trust him no more or less than anyone one else I would hunt with.

It took guts and a strong grasp of his responsibility in this situation to start this thread on a forum that houses a fair amount of keyboard heros. I'm sure he knew a few would bash him. It's refreshing that most support him including Stu.

Cheers
Jim

Todd

quote:

Not only do I say I would hunt with him, I actually have put my money where my mouth is and placed the deposit to do so next August, in Moz, with the same outfitter and at the same camp where this accident took place. From what I understand, his PH which was shot, has already told him he will finish the hunt with him next year.

Definition of class.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I actually have put my money where my mouth is

We need more Todds on this forum.

And good luck to you on your Zim hunt next month.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Regardless, you are way off the mark concerning Tim Herald. He is a class act. He simply was involved in an accident that most of us could see happening to us under similar circumstances. Not to mention the integrity he showed by reporting the incident here.

Bingo.

If I ever come under enemy fire, I hope that either a Navy Seal, a Texas Ranger or Todd Williams shows up to help save my fat butt!

quote:

He simply was involved in an accident that most of us could see happening to us under similar circumstances.

Maybe "most" of us can, but I damn sure am not including myself in that most. If you keep your finger out of the trigger guard, which is a standard safety practice, until you're shooting, it won't happen. I'm not knocking Tim, it happened as he was under pressure, but it should NEVER have happened if he had been using safe gun handling techniques.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

He simply was involved in an accident that most of us could see happening to us under similar circumstances.

Maybe "most" of us can, but I damn sure am not including myself in that most. If you keep your finger out of the trigger guard, which is a standard safety practice, until you're shooting, it won't happen. I'm not knocking Tim, it happened as he was under pressure, but it should NEVER have happened if he had been using safe gun handling techniques.

Best make that call when you have your trackers jumping past you and a big black mass only meters from you reducing that short distance as you look on calm and colect.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

He simply was involved in an accident that most of us could see happening to us under similar circumstances.

Maybe "most" of us can, but I damn sure am not including myself in that most. If you keep your finger out of the trigger guard, which is a standard safety practice, until you're shooting, it won't happen. I'm not knocking Tim, it happened as he was under pressure, but it should NEVER have happened if he had been using safe gun handling techniques.

Have you ever tracked DG in thickets?

quote:

Have you ever tracked DG in thickets?

No, but judging by your question I assume you do so with your safety off and your finger on the trigger? If so, add another one that is likely to kill his PH or a tracker. You can bet your ass on one thing, if I'm behind you or in front of you or anyone else, or if there is no one there but me, I won't be walking around or falling around with my finger on the trigger. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE TO HAVE YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNLESS YOU ARE ACTUALLY SHOOTING.

quote:

I tried to walk backwards as I was bringing up my .458, but after a couple steps, I tripped and fell backwards. As I fell, I hit the trigger and my gun discharged. Simultaneously, Stu had fired at the buff from the hip and hit and turned him. He definitely saved someone’s life.

Like I said, it happened and it was a difficult position, but anyone who thinks it happened for any reason than the primary one of poor safety habits is just making excuses.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Have you ever tracked DG in thickets?

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE TO HAVE YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNLESS YOU ARE ACTUALLY SHOOTING.

I think that is the part you are missing Gt. He was in the act of shooting when he fell.

How long does it take to shift the trigger finger from the external edge of the trigger guard to whichever trigger comes first to the touch?......one thousandth of a second?


For those who detest doubles part of the hidden costs in their production are little refinements like specially designed triggers which face outwards and "invite" the touch without hooking the finger as in a conventional bolt action.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Have you ever tracked DG in thickets?

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE TO HAVE YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNLESS YOU ARE ACTUALLY SHOOTING.

I think that is the part you are missing Gt. He was in the act of shooting when he fell.

Admittedly I have not hunted DG in the thickets so maybe some of the more experienced can educate me. When an animal charges you is it normal to be shooting while moving? Should you stand your ground thus have a stable shooting platform and more accurate shot or bring your gun up to shoot while walking backwards?

We have been lucky so far, as we have never been charged in any thicket.

But, we have followed quite a number of wounded buffalo into very thick stuff.

There are so many variables, that one cannot really say what he would do should an attack occur.

You never know when, or from the attack is going to come. It can come from the front, side or even behind you. You will probably hear it before you can see the animal, and your reaction is going to be based on how all this happen.

Trying to second guess what could happen from out computer keyboards is not going to get close to reality.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Have you ever tracked DG in thickets?

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE TO HAVE YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNLESS YOU ARE ACTUALLY SHOOTING.

I think that is the part you are missing Gt. He was in the act of shooting when he fell.

Admittedly I have not hunted DG in the thickets so maybe some of the more experienced can educate me. When an animal charges you is it normal to be shooting while moving? Should you stand your ground thus have a stable shooting platform and more accurate shot or bring your gun up to shoot while walking backwards?

See above bolded word.

There is no "normal" when it comes to thick cover, rapidly moving people, even more rapidly moving game with ill intent.

Train all you want (good idea).

Have mental imagery of what you would do (good idea)

Discuss tactics ahead of time with the PH and crew (good idea)

Report back after your encounter and let me know how many good ideas actually are implimented in the 2 seconds of mayhem.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Have you ever tracked DG in thickets?

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE TO HAVE YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNLESS YOU ARE ACTUALLY SHOOTING.

I think that is the part you are missing Gt. He was in the act of shooting when he fell.

Admittedly I have not hunted DG in the thickets so maybe some of the more experienced can educate me. When an animal charges you is it normal to be shooting while moving? Should you stand your ground thus have a stable shooting platform and more accurate shot or bring your gun up to shoot while walking backwards?

I think it would be hard to answer that question with an absolute. Of course, standing rock solid still and shooting would be preferable. However, if you have been surprised at close range, do you know for a fact that you will not instinctively back away. Add to that the fact that shots have been fired and the animal is still coming on, to say you would stand there and take the hit is simply bravado.

Mark Sullivan stands there but then again, he isn't being surprised as he is provoking the charge, and not in heavy cover either. I don't know if you watch hunting DVDs but if so, I'll offer some food for thought.

Ivan Carter is a very well respected PH with a lot of DG experience, including a large amount of experience stopping charges. Some on video. There is an often repeated clip of Ivan being surprised by an elephant cow on a game trail. The cow suddenly charged and took him by surprise. He fired the first round as he was backing up, continued to back up out of the frame to the left and fired the second barrel. IVAN FIRED THE FIRST ROUND WHILE BACKING UP!!

Here is another example. In Aaron Neilson's DVD, Global Hunter 5 & 6, he and Phillip Smythe were following up a buffalo. As they entered an area of dense brush, the buffalo was waiting on them and charged. Aaron fired the first shot with Phillip firing almost at the same time. The buffalo continued his charge. Phillip cycled his action and raised the gun to fire again while backing up, tripping on a small bush and stumbling back first into a large tree while Aaron fired again and turned the charge. PHILLIP WAS BACKING UP AS HE FIRED and tripped!!

So there are just two examples of very experienced PHs backing up and firing at the same time upon being surprised by a buffalo or elephant. Anyone here on AR going to publicly state that they would never back up and fire at a dangerous animal that just surprised them in heavy cover? No, it isn't the "textbook" way of doing it but then again, that is the difference between having "textbook" knowledge and "experience".

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Have you ever tracked DG in thickets?

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE TO HAVE YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNLESS YOU ARE ACTUALLY SHOOTING.

I think that is the part you are missing Gt. He was in the act of shooting when he fell.

Admittedly I have not hunted DG in the thickets so maybe some of the more experienced can educate me. When an animal charges you is it normal to be shooting while moving? Should you stand your ground thus have a stable shooting platform and more accurate shot or bring your gun up to shoot while walking backwards?

I think it would be hard to answer that question with an absolute. Of course, standing rock solid still and shooting would be preferable. However, if you have been surprised at close range, do you know for a fact that you will not instinctively back away. Add to that the fact that shots have been fired and the animal is still coming on, to say you would stand there and take the hit is simply bravado.

Mark Sullivan stands there but then again, he isn't being surprised as he is provoking the charge, and not in heavy cover either. I don't know if you watch hunting DVDs but if so, I'll offer some food for thought.

Ivan Carter is a very well respected PH with a lot of DG experience, including a large amount of experience stopping charges. Some on video. There is an often repeated clip of Ivan being surprised by an elephant cow on a game trail. The cow suddenly charged and took him by surprise. He fired the first round as he was backing up, continued to back up out of the frame to the left and fired the second barrel. IVAN FIRED THE FIRST ROUND WHILE BACKING UP!!

Here is another example. In Aaron Neilson's DVD, Global Hunter 5 & 6, he and Phillip Smythe were following up a buffalo. As they entered an area of dense brush, the buffalo was waiting on them and charged. Aaron fired the first shot with Phillip firing almost at the same time. The buffalo continued his charge. Phillip cycled his action and raised the gun to fire again while backing up, tripping on a small bush and stumbling back first into a large tree while Aaron fired again and turned the charge. PHILLIP WAS BACKING UP AS HE FIRED and tripped!!

So there are just two examples of very experienced PHs backing up and firing at the same time upon being surprised by a buffalo or elephant. Anyone here on AR going to publicly state that they would never back up and fire at a dangerous animal that just surprised them in heavy cover? No, it isn't the "textbook" way of doing it but then again, that is the difference between having "textbook" knowledge and "experience".

Human instinct is always to "get away", forcing yourself to stand your ground is NOT easy to do. Having been charged by buffalo on 3 separate occasions, I can personally attest to that. Only once did I not take at least a step or two backwards, as this particular charge started from a good distance away, with a completely un-wounded bull!

Besides, if you can create "space" between yourself and any charging animal, it could allow you an additional split second to make a good shot, get out of the way, etc.

Standing like a rock, easier said than done - I assure you.

Good post Todd!!!

From another hunter that spent a little time in Africa, in close quarters with dangerous game:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

Of course it's instinctual for us to run away from danger or else we wouldn't be the dominant predator right now. I'm not saying that in the similar situation I wouldn't do the same and have to change my shorts afterwards. I'm not judging Tim or anyone for backing away from danger.

quote:

Originally posted by Pulicords:
From another hunter that spent a little time in Africa, in close quarters with dangerous game:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

Nuff said!

I've held off of this conversation for lots of reasons, but I think it is about time for me to try to contribute. I'm not a seer or particularly wise man, but, with the limited knowledge I have, I think we should neither go with the "It's okay because shit happens" attitude nor an accusatory, "It's all about poor gun handling".

Here are my disclaimers and bona fides:

I've been hunting since I was 6 or 7 years old.

I've killed more than one animal that has literally knocked me over during the process, but to die from my bullet or arrow before they could do me much harm. A few more en route to bite or smash me, I've killed before they actually counted coup.

I've been on 20+ safaris. The last buffalo I killed was unwounded, not being hunted and apparently was just pissed at the world because it had a poacher's wire on one leg... coming hell for leather from spitting distance to barrel length before succumbing to a few .458's in the chest.

I was trained as a Marine infantry officer before I was further trained as an aviator. I've been to war. I was taught to believe that shooting your buddy was worse than getting killed yourself, but I know that better men (and Marines) than me have committed that sin. Over and over, we were trained to "advance on the ambush" and never run from it until the situation was assessed. Still, I know that the only perfect guy got crucified 2000 years ago and it sure as heck wasn't me or Tim.

So... here's what I have to say:

I have no idea if Tim was "in the act of shooting" when he fell. I have no idea if he put his finger on the trigger, too soon. I have no idea if Tim should have had more "situational awareness", or if he just screwed the pooch. I don't know if Tim has taken financial responsiblity for any consequence to Stu (or even if he should) and if he does, if he has insurance or will require fund raising to do so. I also don't know if I would be glad or afraid to have Tim behind me with a gun since I've never seen him handle one (I don't watch many hunting shows, I guess).

Here's what I do know:
Tim has taken responsibility (at least factually) and at this point, seems to want to do what he can about the financial loss to Stu. Tim has writen only a few lines about what actually happened. Details are very limited to this point. Finally, and what I think most important to the supporters and detracters here (other than Stu's health and getting him financial support), Tim has said that he will do a show about the incident. Hopefully, from that, we'll all learn something.

Now, here is what I feel:
No one who goes in harm's way can have a very successful manner of handling danger unless and until they have a bifurcated attitude. They must feel that they can, and will, handle all circumstances, both expected and unexpected.... or, as fighter pilots think, they have "the right stuff". The second attitude is that one must always have the belief that danger is not just likely to happen, but that the "shit will hit the fan", and probably sooner rather than later. You just have to have some anxiety.

The two attitudes may seem mutually exclusive, but they are not. While one must constantly fear an attack and constantly be preparing for it mentally (situational awareness), one must have the attitude, that when it comes, one's training, equipment and coolness under pressure is sufficient to ward off all comers.

So.. would I have acted differently than Tim? Who knows? I'd like to think so and have been trained pretty darn well not to screw up, and to date, I've done just fine in such circumstances, but next time I may miss the shot, trip on a root or shoot my own damn self or piss my britches or throw down my rifle and run screaming to Mama. That said, I try to avoid such responses by toting the attitude, from the minute I hit the ground in Africa (or even getting on my Harley at home) that if I don't fix whatever problem arises (be it a charging buffalo or an old lady blindly pulling out of a driveway), I've failed and put my children's father at risk (and also compromised the lives of those with whom I fight, hunt or whatever).

Folks, Tim is going to do a show on this incident. He hopes it can be a teaching vehicle to prepare others to avoid what happened to Stu, be it an unavoidable accident or screw up or whatever definition you wish.

I applaud Tim for that and will await its viewing before I pass judgment. Pulling a sentence (or emphasizing a word) from a few short posts really isn't fair, one way or the other. Let's wait.


If we do so, we'll see what Tim does with the episode on his show. I hope it is the whole story, warts and all. If so, I think that Tim, intentionally or not, will tell us clearly what kind of man he is. My calculated guess is that he'll stand up to whatever mistakes he may have made, try his best to teach us how to avoid such an incident and just plain make us more conscious of why it is always incumbent to always remember that the dangerous game we hunt is not nearly as dangerous as the rifles we tote.

I'll bet I learn to be a safer and better hunter.... and maybe a better man, too.

Well said, both Todd and Judge!

My, how clear-headed and logical we can be on a computer keyboard...

But why did most of that seem to elude us the last time we had to follow-up that wounded dangerous thing tucked tightly somewhere in that impenetrable thicket on the edge of night?

Been there...

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

JudgeG,
Thank you for your service.
But you really need to quit riding those organ-donor-cycles so as to prolong your years in the safer sport of cape buffalo hunting.

No one here has had an "attitude" that "It's okay because shit happens" as you said,
though plenty of the other attitude you point out has been shown.

Rather, it is an acknowledgement of proof that indeed, as you say, "shit will hit the fan" eventually,
for shit DID hit the fan here for sure.

It is never OK when the shit hits the fan ... OH SHIT!!!

I am recording all the Magnum TV and The Zone episodes to see what Tim does with this, eventually,
just doing the best he can, I am sure, for all involved.

Doc B

Just spoke to Nigel again. He went home to Bulywayo to check on the home front. He reported that Stu was well enough to travel and was home in Bulywayo.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
JudgeG,
Thank you for your service.
But you really need to quit riding those organ-donor-cycles so as to prolong your years in the safer sport of cape buffalo hunting.

No one here has had an "attitude" that "It's okay because shit happens" as you said,
though plenty of the other attitude you point out has been shown.

Rather, it is an acknowledgement of proof that indeed, as you say, "shit will hit the fan" eventually,
for shit DID hit the fan here for sure.

It is never OK when the shit hits the fan ... OH SHIT!!!

I am recording all the Magnum TV and The Zone episodes to see what Tim does with this, eventually,
just doing the best he can, I am sure, for all involved.

Doc B

Actually, I thought Judge articulated things very well. Like he said, he wasn't there to see what happened, and neither was anyone else. And the broader question of fiscal responsibility is one that ought to be asked.

Tim has not come out and said he is "a poor outdoor writer with no means to help." What he does next will mean more to me than just coming clean via AR - after all, it wasn't going to be a secret for long.

I did note Terry Wieland had a story in Safari Times about all the accidents this year. He didn't mention Tim by name, but had various theories as to why the accident level is up.

I hate to say this, but if this causes all of us to be just a bit more careful it might save the life of a PH, staff member, or client down the road - in other words, some good may come from it. But we will never know...

All of this reminds me of what Mike Tyson said once, "Everyone has a plan, until you get hit in the face".

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
All of this reminds me of what Mike Tyson said once, "Everyone has a plan, until you get hit in the face".

How is Stu Doing?

I stumbled on a benefit for Stu Taylor, also has an update on his medical situation FYI

http://www.stutaylor-kambako.com/?p=1

Thanks for that link. The update is the most candid report on Stu's condition to date and Stu is much worse off than we were lead to believe here. The only updates we get here are Stu's home having coffee on his veranda. I will defer to the orthopods here but to me that shoulder is destroyed and the best Stu can hope for is a fused shoulder with movement similar to Senator John McCain. And as AZWriter alluded to, Stu should be getting a sizable check every month for the rest of his life from the party responsible.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
Thanks for that link. The update is the most candid report on Stu's condition to date and Stu is much worse off than we were lead to believe here. The only updates we get here are Stu's home having coffee on his veranda. I will defer to the orthopods here but to me that shoulder is destroyed and the best Stu can hope for is a fused shoulder with movement similar to Senator John McCain. And as AZWriter alluded to, Stu should be getting a sizable check every month for the rest of his life from the party responsible.

A most curious response.

quote:

And as AZWriter alluded to, Stu should be getting a sizable check every month for the rest of his life from the party responsible.

I didn't allude to a monthly check for life anywhere. Not sure where you got that one. Should Tim help? Of course. But how he does is not for me to say.

http://www.stutaylor-kambako.com/?p=1


Four procedures done and four more expected, when cardiac risk is improved?


There is such a thing as total shoulder joint replacement surgery nowadays.
Orthopod opinions?
Sumbuddy who know?

I have never seen such a mess of a wrecked shoulder on CT or plain Xray before.
And after repairs thus far: Long row to hoe yet to go.

The partial silouhette of the heart does look a bit enlarged.
Might suggest congestive heart failure,
alluded to as contusion from shock of .458 impact so near heart.

And does the TV show or Tim have any liability coverage?

Yes, shit hit the fan here.

WOW! That is a truly horrible set of scans and x-rays. I sincerly hope that Stu's luck holds and the recovery process goes well. Sadly, I think luck is going to be needed.

This whole saga leaves a small knot of fear in my stomach. There but for the grace of God go the whole bloody lot of us.

All the best to all involved.

Dean

Rather impressive and quite extensive set of injuries on that 3D CT reconstruction.
Clavicle fracture is virtually meaningless in light of the other structural disruptions.
Nevertheless, as long as nerve and vascular injury are minimal, he may regain some meaningful use of his left arm but as has already been put forth - that road is a long a difficult one.

Again, best wishes for a swift recovery.

Tim,

Go visit a professional with experience treating individuals involved in traumatic events. If people think you are a sissy for doing so...piss on them. Avoid hunting dangerous game too soon in an attempt to "get back in the saddle". No good can come of that until you have had time to heal mentally and emotionally. Learn to let it go. Don't broadcast the incident on your show. It was an accident, no more not less. Don't leave a permanent record of the event. There is nothing to learn from it unless there was negligence involved in the event and that doesn't seem to be the case.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

And as AZWriter alluded to, Stu should be getting a sizable check every month for the rest of his life from the party responsible.

I didn't allude to a monthly check for life anywhere. Not sure where you got that one. Should Tim help? Of course. But how he does is not for me to say.

Sorry AZ I took it a step further and I apologize. Didn't think before typing. That step is my personal opinion not yours. I would have thought as a producer of TV shows on a dangerous activity such as hunting, he or the company would have comprehensive liability insurance to cover such an incident.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

And as AZWriter alluded to, Stu should be getting a sizable check every month for the rest of his life from the party responsible.

I didn't allude to a monthly check for life anywhere. Not sure where you got that one. Should Tim help? Of course. But how he does is not for me to say.

Sorry AZ I took it a step further and I apologize. Didn't think before typing. That step is my personal opinion not yours. I would have thought as a producer of TV shows on a dangerous activity such as hunting, he or the company would have comprehensive liability insurance to cover such an incident.

Let's hope he does now and the rest follow suit. I have an umbrella policy to protect me but I never thought about liability in hunting before. And I never thought about it after CB's daughter shot a tracker. But I connected the dots here: gee, this could happen to me.

Like I said before, there is a difference between fault and responsibility.

Like I said before, there is a difference between fault and responsibility.[/QUOTE]

On that, we can agree on.