quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:
And another one goes onto the IGNORE list.

Must be getting crowded in there.

Not going to argue, but will try to explain a little... Stu and Kambako will see and approve the show/s before they ever air. We never do that with shows, but we want Stu and Kambako to have final word and input. This isn't about capitalizing on a terrible situation - this is about showing what can happen to any of us any time, and hopefully it helps someone, somehow to not have something like this happen. I certainly am not excited about showing the world my lowest moment and biggest mistake that hurt a good friend- but I am willing to do that if there is something good that can come of it. This has nothing to do with sponsors, making money, etc. The only $ we hope it might make is for something like the Something More Safaris fund or a similar relief type program that can help PH's, trackers, etc. that get injured on the job. I have talked to SMS's today and we will be doing a piece in the shows about their efforts and how hunters can band together to support them (Which supports folks like John Greeff, Buzz's Tracker Criton, Stu, Owain's wife, etc.)

Undoubtedly there will be bashers, and that is fine, but I want to say that the great support here on AR and beyond by hunters has really showed how great hunters are

Keep on keepin on Tim! As you can see from this thread, there is a very small number of idiots out there that think they are invincible and have to spout off, rather than simply offer a prayer for Stu and yourself and get on with life like the other 99.9% of us. I'll be 65 in a couple days and I have to truthfully state that you are one of less than ten in the show end of hunting that I will even consider watching. With that I'll say no more! Peace Brother!!!

Tim, well said.

Frostbit
I only had 1 in there till this thread.
But this has brought out the jackass in too many folks & I just don't feel the need to tolerate them.
By the way, can't wait for you & the pyro maniac to go on another safari so I can have some more laughs.(no I won't send $$$ to help out)

Well done Tim! I've learned a lot from this thread, especially how few good people there really are.

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:

the pyro maniac to go on another safari

I just wish she'd finish her report. It was getting pretty funny.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by raamw:

I have been following this thread and if I am out of line than excuse me, I see almost as many sympathies for Ted as I do for STU. Ted was the culprit who didn't mind his muzzle.
For him to suggest that a "FUND" should be started and that Ted wants to televise this show to me is over the line, hopefully not pay for view.
TED should face up to his liability, broad cast the pending lawsuits so you get an unedited picture of what happened and the liability that attaches to incidents like this, what next?, will he have Law Firms as sponsors on his TV programs.

I think that has to be the most inappropriate post I've ever read on AR.

Yeah, and if you don't know the names of the people involved maybe you don't have the knowledge required to post anything meaningful on the subject.

Anyone with at least half a brain who handles firearms regularly will consider for themselves what happened here and do their best to handle them as safely as possible in the future. That should be the extent of the "judgement" given to this accident.

Anyone with at least half a heart will keep Stu and Tim in their thoughts and prayers for healing and peace, for them and their families.

There seems to be too much judgement in the world today, and not enough sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
A nice piece of PR.

Will, what are you really saying?

In his post above Mr. Herald clearly shows that he is a responsible stand-up guy by referring to what happened as his "biggest mistake" rather than an unavoidable accident as some would have it.
As has been said before, all of us that have hunted or shot for years have had NDs, but I fail to find, above, as been alleged numerous times, any " bragging " that a Herald/Taylor incident could never happen to them. Setting up straw men never, in my opinion, advances any discussion.
Good for you, Mr. Herald, and I hope your show on this incident makes tons of money to benefit Mr. Taylor and others. I don't watch any hunting shows, but I will watch yours.

I wax back and forth on this horrible incident...I feel and pray for Hearald and the PH....but I still come back to my basic belief that there is no such thing as a firearm "accident"...someone did something wrong!
I applaud Hearald for having the guts to air the video, hope it raises awareness for all and that the money is indeed used for a PH fund!

Tim, I'll repeat that the only criticism you need to listen to is from those who were there. The following is NOT intended as a criticism. You are a stand-up guy or you would not have started this discussion.

I am an old man, all my kids are self-sufficient and I'm divorced. I only say that to say this: I do think that visualization and practice have a place in these situations. Since my PH is likely still a breadwinner what I visualize is "stand and deliver." Whether I have a bow or a gun my intent is to take a shot at the terminal phases of a charge with my feet planted, and only take evasive action when in arm's length. This keeps me out of his way to the last second. What my plan would be if I were still the breadwinner I cannot say.

I say "it is my intent" because no man ever knows what he will actually do in any given situation, even if he has reacted perfectly to emergencies in the past. I have seen men who reacted perfectly several times in the past take the wrong action - sometimes amazingly wrong actions - especially when the situation is a total surprise. As with others here, these examples were not with buffalo, but in firefighting and combat. These are different situations from buffalo hunting, but they can have the same element of surprise - and the same severe consequences.

I know that by now you have re-lived this event a thousand times and had many sleepless nights. My only advice is to realize that every one involved was lucky enough to live through it relatively whole, and so you will all likely have a chance for perfect reactions in the future.

Practice and visualize for the next time, and persevere.

Well said Don. I think you and I are on EXACTLY the same page.

quote:

I am an old man, all my kids are self-sufficient and I'm divorced. I only say that to say this: I do think that visualization and practice have a place in these situations. Since my PH is likely still a breadwinner what I visualize is "stand and deliver." Whether I have a bow or a gun my intent is to take a shot at the terminal phases of a charge with my feet planted, and only take evasive action when in arm's length. This keeps me out of his way to the last second. What my plan would be if I were still the breadwinner I cannot say.

I say "it is my intent" because no man ever knows what he will actually do in any given situation, even if he has reacted perfectly to emergencies in the past. I have seen men who reacted perfectly several times in the past take the wrong action - sometimes amazingly wrong actions - especially when the situation is a total surprise. As with others here, these examples were not with buffalo, but in firefighting and combat. These are different situations from buffalo hunting, but they can have the same element of surprise - and the same severe consequences.

Don, that is great advice. Anyone who has not mentally prepared themselves will revert to their baseline actions.

Mark Sullivan is alive because he cultivates a strong mental image of exactly what he will do when every charge comes.
He is arguably the best charge stopper ever. He is mentally primed for his first shot to go into the brain when the animal breaks 10 yards and is coming straight at him. His second shot is held in reserve to finish it off if it tries to get up.

Many hate his personality, but I strongly believe that every person who wants to hunt DG up close needs to watch all of Marks videos and live each of them out in their mind, if possible with double in hand and snap caps under the pins.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:

quote:

I am an old man, all my kids are self-sufficient and I'm divorced. I only say that to say this: I do think that visualization and practice have a place in these situations. Since my PH is likely still a breadwinner what I visualize is "stand and deliver." Whether I have a bow or a gun my intent is to take a shot at the terminal phases of a charge with my feet planted, and only take evasive action when in arm's length. This keeps me out of his way to the last second. What my plan would be if I were still the breadwinner I cannot say.

I say "it is my intent" because no man ever knows what he will actually do in any given situation, even if he has reacted perfectly to emergencies in the past. I have seen men who reacted perfectly several times in the past take the wrong action - sometimes amazingly wrong actions - especially when the situation is a total surprise. As with others here, these examples were not with buffalo, but in firefighting and combat. These are different situations from buffalo hunting, but they can have the same element of surprise - and the same severe consequences.

Don, that is great advice. Anyone who has not mentally prepared themselves will revert to their baseline actions.

Mark Sullivan is alive because he cultivates a strong mental image of exactly what he will do when every charge comes.
He is arguably the best charge stopper ever. He is mentally primed for his first shot to go into the brain when the animal breaks 10 yards and is coming straight at him. His second shot is held in reserve to finish it off if it tries to get up.

Many hate his personality, but I strongly believe that every person who wants to hunt DG up close needs to watch all of Marks videos and live each of them out in their mind, if possible with double in hand and snap caps under the pins.

One cannot compare an accident such as this to what Mark Sullivan does.

In Tim and Stu's accident, things happened that were totally unexpected.

Mark Sullivan, on the other hand knows EXACTLY what is going to happen, as the buffalo is lying right in front of him.

He never had the guts to go after animals in thick bush - at least I have never seen him stop a charge from a buffalo in thick bush, and I have seen plenty of showmanship antics.

Well said , Don!!

For Stuart Taylor, I hope he recovers fully and soon. Terrible results from the accident, and hopefully the damage heals quickly. Good luck to him and the rest of the crew at Kambako Safaris.

Well said Don and I also agree with Ian (AHQ). Both of your posts here are a positive example of what I was referring to in my recent thread “The Benefits of Sharing What We Learn Through Our Experiences.”

Saeed, with all due respect, your post is also a perfect example of what I am referring to as well but is an example of the negative aspect. “He (MS) never had the guts to go after animals in thick bush.” Saeed, you clearly know not of what you speak. I do not say that with malice but simply to illustrate my point.

In my opinion, your strong distaste for a hunting style or methodology is partisan and likely clouds your ability to glean information. That information might be beneficial to helping others learn techniques that might save their life or the lives of others someday.

We can all learn and share tactics, techniques, and tips from events that unfold during our dangerous game hunts. When finger pointing, the assignment of blame, or distaste for hunting style/preference is left out of the conversations often much more is readily available to absorb.

I hope you might also consider cutting and pasting some of your comments here to the above link as well if you think it might be useful on that thread. Again, my very best to both Stu and Tim, I am keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers daily.

Shawn

(edited 1st paragraph for clarity of reference to Don & Ian)

I've just returned from my recent Buff/Ele hunt. Heard about the shooting via the jungle drums and got on AR immediately after return to see what had been said and have read all 8 pages.

Tim, congrats on publishing this incident immediately and, of course, my best wishes to both involved.

I find some of the comments in the thread disturbing and some incredibly on target. Many of you know me and my bona fides. For those who don't, let me just say that I have hunted african Dangerous 7 multiple times and include many Buff and a few Ele and a couple Hippo in my bag. I've stopped charges at mere feet and have been surprised by Buff under 3 yards on more than one occasion. And to some here who set parameters, I spent 410 days in jungle combat as a Marine and 22 years as an LEO, mostly in specops. So here's my analysis:

Tim did NOTHING wrong and while shit does happen it is not applicable to this situation. After dropping my recent Ele at 15 yards, I was backing away from the herd while re-charging my magazine when Al Shearing pushed me to keep me from backing into a bush. It is on video. Would I take my eyes off of DG after a shot into a herd at close range? Not likely! Will I try to remember I could trip and fall? Certainly. Do accidents happen? Yeah, under all kinds of conditions. Is mental preparation and visualization important in DG hunting? Absolutely!

Oh, and are arm-chair quarterbacks full of shit? Always!

Mike,
Very well said!
Bryan

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:
Well said Don and I also agree with AHQ. Your post here is a great example of what I am referring to in my recent thread “The Benefits of Sharing What We Learn Through Our Experiences.”

Saeed, with all due respect, your post is also a perfect example of what I am referring to as well but is an example of the negative aspect. “He (MS) never had the guts to go after animals in thick bush.” Saeed, you clearly know not of what you speak. I do not say that with malice but simply to illustrate my point.

In my opinion, your strong distaste for a hunting style or methodology is partisan and likely clouds your ability to glean information. That information might be beneficial to helping others learn techniques that might save their life or the lives of others someday.

We can all learn and share tactics, techniques, and tips from events that unfold during our dangerous game hunts. When finger pointing, the assignment of blame, or distaste for hunting style/preference is left out of the conversations often much more is readily available to absorb.

I hope you might also consider cutting and pasting some of your comments here to the above link as well if you think it might be useful on that thread. Again, my very best to both Stu and Tim, I am keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers daily.

Shawn

Shawn,

I certainly dislike Mark Sullivan's way of pretending to hunt.

My idea of a hunt is to kill the animal - regardless of what it is - as quickly and humanely as possible.

Making a hunt into a Hollywood style show, uttering "I let the buffalo choose how he wants to die". And then shooting it right in front of his paying client is the most disgusting way to end a hunt.

I repeat, I have never seen him try to kill a charging bull in thick bush.

But, I have heard of many instances where he has shied off following them when they do get int the thick stuff.

And the final nail in the coffin is that both our hunting orgenizations, SCI and DSC, have banned him from their shows.

I understand that DSC has banned him many years ago.
Well done DSC!

And to get to the stage of that SCI bans him - with all their reputation of tolerating some of the most disgusting so called "hunting" prectices, something must be drastically wrong.

I read Tim's post on the day that he wrote it and have been thinking about it ever since.

Tim and Stu I wish both only the best and this terrible accident is one of the risks that we assume when we hunt dangerous game.

I thought long and hard before I booked my buffalo hunt, I have a bad leg and I warned my outfitter (Martin) before I committed that I could not run or dodge quickly so that if the shit hit the fan my only option was to stand and shoot. Martin accepted this and I also warned my PH (Pierre) of the same limitation the first time that we met and he was fine with it also.

When my wounded bull went into the tall grass, my biggest fear was that someone would get hurt because of it. I was fine with the fact that it might be me but the guys who were there trying to make a living were who I worried about.

I didn't get a shot off the first time I had a chance on the bull's second ambush attempt because I was watching that the trackers (Steve and Farunga) were clear before I brought my gun up. The situation that Tim and Stu wound up in is the scariest thing that I could imagine.

We try our best to prepare ourselves for the dangers that we accept in hunting dangerous game but we always have to acknowledge that accidents can happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:


I tried to walk backwards as I was bringing up my .458, but after a couple steps, I tripped and fell backwards. As I fell, I hit the trigger and my gun discharged. Simultaneously, Stu had fired at the buff from the hip and hit and turned him.

I got to say if it was a simultaneous shot, Stuart Taylor shoots well with a broken collar bone/clavicle and humerous bone.

My reference was not to what Sullivan does. It was to the proven value of mental preparation.

He shows very clearly in all of his videos how to effectively deal with dangerous game in the last 30 yards of a terminal charge. This is first and foremost dealt with in the mind through visualising the charge, the action you will take and the outcome.
Mind over matter wins every time.

If you take the time to read his books, or watch his video, "In the Face of Death" you will get insight into how he prepares his mind to deal with a charge.

One thing that you can take to the bank, is that you should hold your shot until the animal breaks 10 yards or turns away. By doing that you increase the size of the target you are aiming at and you ensure that should the animal turn away you have a perfect heart lung shot as he passes.

Whether you like his methods or not, Mark Sullivan has proven his way of dealing with charges 100%.
I will try and condense what I have gleaned from him

1. Prepare your mind to deal with every possible scenario
2. Wait until it breaks 10 yards
3. Shoot for the Brain or CNS (even a 700 Nitro does stuff all on a chest shot, he tested it)
4. Hold your second shot for when the animal is on you, in-case your first shot to the CNS was not accurate
5. Anything less than a 458 Lott or 500 Nitro is not adequate for close up charges
6. Two barrels are better than 1.

I really wish everyone would take the time to switch off their personal egos and realise that no matter how much you think you know, there is always something to be learned.
Mark Sullivan has gathered a library of footage that shows almost every terminal situation a hunter may encounter in a worst case scenario, if you watch each of them and use that mental image to prepare yourself to do the same, you will never falter or fail.

Hi Tim,
Hope to see Stu on my way out in a couple weeks.
I have no doubt he will be back up here in a month or two at the most.
It was a real pleasure to hunt with you guys.
Oh, got my Daggaboy on day one and an old Eland yesterday. Now for Hyena.
Regards,
Ad

AHQ,

One big difference between what MS does and this situation is the element of surprise. There is no element of surprise for MS.

That this episode happened during ethical hunting is not really germane to the conversation.

Hi Don
I agree with you 100%, there is no blame to be had here.

My comments were specifically related to mental preparation.
Even in a moment of surprise, thorough mental preparation for what you would do will stand you in good stead. Similar to what swat teams achieve through their drills etc.
By doing that you might be facing a situation for the first time on the ground, but you have faced it in your mind many times before.i.e. its not the first time your brain has had to deal with a buff coming at you.

Perhaps Tim can comment, but had he mentally prepared himself not to walk backwards he may not have ended up in the situation he is in etc.

That said, those who want to jump on their high horse should realise that they too will one day slip up.

There is a great saying in fighting circles, "Every fighter knows what he's going to do, until he gets hit. After that its up to you to decide how you going to get up".

Tim, you just got hit. From what I have read you are on your way up again. I dare say that in this situation, you will only feel right once the other man is back on his feet and fighting fit.

quote:

I certainly dislike Mark Sullivan's way of pretending to hunt.

My idea of a hunt is to kill the animal - regardless of what it is - as quickly and humanely as possible.

Making a hunt into a Hollywood style show, uttering "I let the buffalo choose how he wants to die". And then shooting it right in front of his paying client is the most disgusting way to end a hunt.

I repeat, I have never seen him try to kill a charging bull in thick bush.

But, I have heard of many instances where he has shied off following them when they do get int the thick stuff.

And the final nail in the coffin is that both our hunting orgenizations, SCI and DSC, have banned him from their shows.

I understand that DSC has banned him many years ago.
Well done DSC!

And to get to the stage of that SCI bans him - with all their reputation of tolerating some of the most disgusting so called "hunting" prectices, something must be drastically wrong.

I bought the video that shows what Saeed is talking about in the above. After watching it one time I broke it in half and threw it in the trash. It was insulting to hunters.

Sorry to take away from the original thread so I will say that I feel for both Tim and the PH. I hope both of them recover from this terrible situation.

Sounds like Stuart Taylor is still doing it tough.

quote:

From his fb page: Have just spoken to Stu, surgery went ok yesterday, they put in more screws and took a sample to check if he has an infection or not. His arm is very swollen, so they suspect so. Will know more once the cultures have come back. He is still in alot of pain.
He is due for more surgery again next week, so turning out to be a bigger excersize that originally expected. He so eloquently put it that by next week he will have been into 4 out of 8 theaters in Milpark, so making his way through them all.

I find it incredible people here on this thread were saying this is a minor injury.

I wish him the best, and hope the surgeries are over soon, also the infection and pain improves.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
I find it incredible people here on this thread were saying this is a minor injury.

I wish him the best, and hope the surgeries are over soon, also the infection and pain improves.

I would imagine that's a relative statement in comparison to things like death, paralysis, or profession ending disability. Never the less I hope he's doing well. Best of luck!!!

Brett

To think that getting shot with a .458 slug at close range is a minor injury is incredibly naive. There are major nerves and vessels running through the area that would have been damaged by the kinetic energy of the high velocity, large caliber bullet even if it's a solid and even if not hit directly. The infection, if any would have been cause by the wound being open to the elements. The bullet itself is essentially sterile due to the heat it is subjected to while being fired down the barrel. I suspect that the prognosis for full recovery of use of that arm is slim to none. The swelling may well not be infection but the nerves reacting to the trauma. There is a syndrome named reflex sympathetic dystrophy that will cause constant pain and swelling down the arm even after very minor trauma to the shoulder area. Stu is in for a long period of therapy and recovery unfortunately.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
To think that getting shot with a .458 slug at close range is a minor injury is incredibly naive. There are major nerves and vessels running through the area that would have been damaged by the kinetic energy of the high velocity, large caliber bullet even if it's a solid and even if not hit directly. The infection, if any would have been cause by the wound being open to the elements. The bullet itself is essentially sterile due to the heat it is subjected to while being fired down the barrel. I suspect that the prognosis for full recovery of use of that arm is slim to none. The swelling may well not be infection but the nerves reacting to the trauma. There is a syndrome named reflex sympathetic dystrophy that will cause constant pain and swelling down the arm even after very minor trauma to the shoulder area. Stu is in for a long period of therapy and recovery unfortunately.

Based on your personal examination?

ehh I concur..

Terrible accident Tim, let us all know what details with the fund etc.

Keep well

AD

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim Herald:
Stu is good today. I guess his humerus was also broken by shock of bullet, not actual bullet. They want him to heal some and then go in and try to patch him up.

You don't have to have an MD to deduce that if the "shock" is enough to break the humerus, a structure outside of the body cavity, it was enough to do more than "minor" damage inside the cavity. The humerus is one of the biggest and strongest bones in the human body. A minor clavicular fracture calls for a figure 8 sling not hardware which they are putting in.

So what is your profession txlonghorn?

I am an MD. Fact is any MS-1 can deduce the above once it was revealed that Stu's humerus was fractured from the concussion of the bullet and he's had multiple surgeries to put in hardware and possibly debride the wound. Hard to know why they are putting in hardware when there is suspected infection in the area. Those two don't mix very well.

Maybe because the bone needs to be set so it can start mending or it will die and then possibly not able to be fixed ?


I know when I broke my leg in the UK, parents over in Aus, it was 4 - 6 hours before I got to hospital and the Surgeon operated on me as he couldn't contact my parents but the need was their to set the bone as it was getting to the stage where it starts dying - or so the doctor said.

Hope he heals well. Obviously --- a much more serious injury that I thought!

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
I am an MD. Fact is any MS-1 can deduce the above once it was revealed that Stu's humerus was fractured from the concussion of the bullet and he's had multiple surgeries to put in hardware and possibly debride the wound. Hard to know why they are putting in hardware when there is suspected infection in the area. Those two don't mix very well.

Might be a temporary measure so that the damaged bones don't move and get a chance to set quicker - to be removed at a later stage once the natural healing process has been established?

Happened to a friend of mine whose tibia/fibula were shattered from a motorbike accident.