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WOW!! I'm sure glad more knowledgeable and reasonable people than you are in charge! I'm done here. Tim, you know you have my support!! | |||
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D'Fan, a cop scenario and this situation are apples and oranges. This is between Stu and Tim;no more no less. Saying he should speak and lecture about gun safety. Give me a break. Only the people that were there know exactly how it happened. Just wish Stu, Tim and all the others involved in these unfortunate situations this year best of luck and move on. You want to go off on woulds ofs, should ofs or could ofs. Go start another post. | |||
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Tim, I am wishing all those involved as smooth recovery from both the physical and mental pains. These things happen in the bush and usually so quickly there is little time to react-the normal biological reaction to an “event” takes over. You’ve done all the right things from helping Stu during the accident to reporting the facts as immediately as you could to avoid the Internet trolls and you have keep us updated. It looks like Stu is mending under good care as best as can be expected. As you have seen Larry will have contacted you and he and I will see how Something More Safaris can help . Paul "Diligentia - Vis - Celeritas" NRA Benefactor Member Member DRSS | |||
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It always amazes me that intelligent posters can never realize when they are being played by trolls. Hint: There are two trolls on this thread. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Thoughts and prayers for Stuart and Tim. My biggest fear on safari is being involved in something that would cause an injury to another member of the hunting party. I cannot imagine how Tim feels. He probably preferred that Stuart shot him. Stuart sounds like the typical Zim PH, tough as nails. Hopefully his recovery is speedy and complete. | |||
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Another self rightious, pompous ass has been added to my IGNORE LIST. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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Not many hunters (or at least me) would try to back pedal and at the same time shoot a heavy rifle or any rifle at game. But that is when I am calm. How do we train ourselves not to panic and try to go backwards and shoot at the same time? I am afraid I might panic and do the same thing. I would like to hear from PHs on what we can learn from this tragedy. I would give up hunting if the answer is, there is nothing we can do, these things happen. | |||
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 Thanks! Brian Clark Blue Skies Hunting Adventures www.blueskieshunting.com Email at: info@blueskieshunting.com African Cape Trophy Safaris www.africancapesafaris.com Email at: brian@africancapesafaris.com 1-402-689-2024 | |||
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What a terrible year for Africa. My prayers go out to all involved. Any update yet? | |||
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Back pedaling - It's a natural reaction, so is trying to get the gun up to cover yourself.
Thinking through what you want to do in certain situations and then practising it - being stand and deliver, getting down on one knee and shooting or whatever. However, that is all well and good if the game is a bit away before it charges or gives you a second or two. If really really close, it all becomes instinctive / natural reaction like I said at the beginning. What a PH does and what most clients would do are probably slightly different. It is NOT black and white out there as most people will attest to. The above is not a criticism of Tim or anyone on that hunt. I wish the PH gets well soon and all works out good for everyone else, especially Tim. . Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Amazing -- not really -- to see the internet experts who have never been there, never faced a charge, never laughed hysterically after it was over -- offer advice on how the situation should have been handled. If you haven't been there, shut up. You haven't earned the right to comment. If you have, well, I don't suppose any of the stupid comments are attributable to you anyway. | |||
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Todd, while I appreciate your passion and obvious emotion involved in this situation, your accusations and name calling of me (noted in above quote)is unbecoming of anyone and does not have a place in this discussion. I have always been straightforward and honest with my opinion. I truly empathize with the situation. Just because your views seem to differ from mine is not a reason to both disparage me and liken me to either a rat or a troll. For the record, I am neither and any moderator will know that I am not either "Adrook" or "Cane Rat". Please reconsider your expressions herein. I tend to be rather direct, so I feel I could have also expressed myself better in analyzing the situation. Side note: What I also find very interesting is the human psychology of trying to pass blame or fault with those whose beliefs you disagree with- this is human nature. Unfortunately, while a few of our opinions may differ, a few poster's approach to rebuttal or attacks is both flawed and slightly juvenile. I hope we can carry on like gentlemen. Thank you. | |||
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Amazing analysis....and the ignore list grows. Tim, pay no attention to the folks that never have accidents. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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MY IGNORE LIST HAS BEEN STABLE FOR A LONG WHILE- BUT 2 MORE NAMES HAVE NOW BEEN ADDED. urban cop shootings compared to DG hunting??? even a moronic 3rd grader could come up with a better analogy( which is by definition a fallacious argument anyway) than that. best wishes to everyone for a rapid recovery in all ints aspects. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Stay Strong Tim, Best wishes and fast recovery to Stu God Bless! it dont mean a thing-if it aint got no zing!! | |||
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Glad to hear that Stu is recovering and seems to be doing OK. Am certain that only Stu can feel worse than Tim about the unfortunate event. Bet he has replayed the situation a thousand times. Once upon a long time ago, I out ran my legs at a USPSA Nationals match and went down with a loaded and ready racegun. I can tell you that the time to the ground is remembered very clearly. I was lucky and did not have an AD and never swept anyone in the process. I did not have the encouragement of a pissed off Cape Buffalo to add more adrenalin to the mix. I was lucky! Tim needs no one to help him analyze it. I applaud his honestly and wish peace and healing to all involved! Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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Most friendly fire happens due to mistaken identity rather than lapses in safety procedure. In a blue on blue, troops deliberately fire at targets in the genuine belief that they are enemy whereas, in fact, they turn out to be friendly. By far the best weapons safety discipline I have ever seen was in the Army. We never relied on the safety catch. In tricky situations it was often not engaged and even if it was we assumed the weapon could discharge at any moment. Muzzle awareness is the only way to guarantee safety and no decent soldier risks shooting his buddies. Tim, very glad your situation did not end in tragedy. I hope Stu is recovering fast and that you are not beating yourself up too much. Given the circumstances it could have happened to any of us. | |||
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My best wishes to all for a speedy recovery. I just wish that I walked on water like some posters here. Tim, You did what most of us hope that we would do in the same situation: step to the side, bring the gun up and get ready to pull the trigger. But for a bit of unfortunately placed foliage we would all be congratulating you for "standing your ground" rather than beating you up. | |||
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I am surely not going to try to affix blame in this incident. Only the two that are involved can do that. On another note, I do think that there is a lesson to be learned here on field gun safety. I have fallen a couple of times when my rifle was on safe and once when it wasn't while in the middle of an elephant charge while trying to back up. On all occasions, I distinctly remember my first action as I felt myself slipping was to get my right hand off of the pistol grip and away from the trigger and the second was to get the muzzle of the rifle pointed in a safe direction. Why is that so ingrained in my behavior? I credit 30 years in IPSC pistol and three gun competition. In these competitions, if you move with your finger in the trigger guard, it is an automatic disqualification from the match. You learn quickly to to take your finger out of the trigger guard as soon as you start to move. Also if you break the 180 degree line with the muzzle of your firearm at any time including a fall you are also DQd. No excuses accepted. Now I would bet that if you haven't competed in such a strict sport, you have never practiced moving your finger out of the trigger guard when you start to move. But you can practice that every time you go to the range until it becomes and automatic response. Practicing for a fall is much more difficult. Most competitors don't practice it but they use visualization to ingrain it into their memory banks. 465H&H | |||
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i guess i'm an azzhole too - cause i have fallen down many many times | |||
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I served in units that had little tolerance for unsafe firearm handling and zero tolerance for an AD (accidental discharge). No group that I know of trains harder to prepare for combat or hunts more "dangerous game" during limited visibility and in all terrain. They know how to react under stress and they have proven it. Most people will never have their level of firearms proficiency. We still had AD's from time to time. We always said, "there are 2 types of guys, those who have had an AD and those who haven't yet. You pray to God that your muzzle will be pointed in a safe direction when it happens to you." There is no excuse, and "Crap will happen" is a poor way of shrugging it off. However, we are humans and humans make mistakes. Tim, I don't know you but a lot of people are vouching for you as a stand up guy and I have no reason to doubt them. I will not judge you because I am not God and I know that you are being harder on yourself than anyone else could ever be. Anyone can be perfect during good times. The measure of a good man should be taken during hard times. I applaud you (Tim) for admitting your grave error on a public forum. Don't let the demons/nightmares (and critics) from this incident consume you. Learn from it and teach others. Everyone should learn from this terrible incident because you never want it to happen to you. Always practice and train like it is for real to minimize the errors that can happen when it is for real. Don't be too cool to "huddle up" and make a quick plan prior to entering that dangerous situation, and never get in a hurry to get yourself killed. The "crap happens" and the "burn him he's a witch" extemes of criticism are serving no constructive purpose. If you truly believe "crap happens" practice more so it doesn't! If you think you are perfect, be prepared to be held to your own standards. Prayers to all for a speedy recovery. | |||
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There is no way to train for a situation like this. I am not talking army training, or police officer training but in the field hunter training like in this incident. It happened. No way to control it. No way to practice for it. Yes, it just happened and I would hope that we all think we would do what we consider the right thing in that blink of an eye but none of us know for sure until it happens to us and I pray it does not happen to anyone else. Sad story. Best of luck to Stu and Tim and all the other hunters and PH's and camps effected this year. | |||
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I know the guys at Kambako and have some insight into how quickly things can turn sour when hunting buffalo, elephants or leopard. Ya' know - I do see a kind of movie ("Rudy")parallel here, to the priest in one scene who tells Rudy that in three decades as a religious priest, he has come to know only two incontrovertible facts: “One, there is a God; and two, I’m not Him.” My parallel- One, it's called dangerous game for a reason, and two, nothing anyone can do will insulate them from accidents or mistakes. Best wishes to Stu, and all good wishes to Tim Herald as well. | |||
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Thank God and Greyhound....... "There are worse memorials to a life well-lived than a pair of elephant tusks." Robert Ruark | |||
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praise the Lord. another idiot exits stage right. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Woooooow.....lots to absorb before my first African safari. Should I say on the couch?? | |||
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No, you'd just miss out on the time of your life. Dean ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, Duke of York | |||
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I might suggest that not one of us non professionalS knows what we would have done in that situation unless we had actually been there. All the speculation is just speculation and as valuable as hot air. Unless you've been there how does anyone know that they would not have pissed their pants and run away. We'd like to think we'd stand side by side with the PH and calmly kill the beast but you just don't know until you've done it. And talking about gun safety techniques in the heat of the moment. Please! Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Very well said. That sums it up nicely. | |||
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100% agree with Mark! LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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Mark, You are correct in that you can't think about gun safety in the heat of action. But it is a well established tenant in both police and military training that when the SHTF, you revert to what you were trained to do. A little prep at the range or by visualization can make all the difference. 465H&H | |||
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You really ARE living in cockoo land! Having any sort of intelligence discussion with you is a lost hope! I somehow doubt that you are involved in law enforcemnt. And if you are, I feel very sorry for those you are supposed to be protecting! Bloody hell,talk about someone so impressed by his own self importance! | |||
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I feel for Tim and Stu, I really do. I recently posted that Tim is one of the more transparent writers on this site, but I certainly didn't expect this. And I am sure this could just as easily have been me instead of Tim. I have skimmed this fairly fast, but I think SFRangerGP7 is spot on. I first read this in Australia on Bakes mobile phone (we were deer hunting near Brisbane) and my first thought was the comments about "accidents happen" is a poor way to characterize things. That attitude would get me kicked out of EVERY one of my customers sites; that attitude would produce a Deep Water Horizon spill once a month, several plane crashes a day, etc. etc. Every airplane crash is thoroughly studied to determine its cause and prevent future occurrences. Airline safety is really remarkable if you think about it. That record certainly did not come about with an attitude that "shit happens." My biggest fear on safari is shooting someone; I have posted many times here that I listen to what my PH wants me to do with respect to loading, gun handling etc. God help me if I ever do. I remember asking a question some time back about the odds of getting shot vs getting mauled by a DG animal. It seems to me the odds are about 50/50. I do have a few questions. Do PHs carry insurance that cover them in these cases? I know I carry an umbrella policy to cover unforeseen issues, but do PHs? The idea of relying on a "get well" fund seems a bit too much like a shoe string way to protect yourself. Finally, this does bring up an interesting question. We all sign the waivers of liability when hunting; if we are killed by an animal, tough luck. But what about the other way around? What if we kill the PH? Seems the waiver should go both ways. | |||
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Tim I just returned from namibia and Botswana, and am sad to hear the news. I want to commend you for having the class and maybe the balls to get in front of this. Everyone makes mistakes, it what you do after that counts. You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Don't wait, go now. Savannah Safaris Namibia Otjitambi Trails & Safaris DRSS NRA SCI DSC TSRA TMPA | |||
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It would be nice to hear an update on Stu's condition in amongst all these opinions please. There are those of us who look on Saeed's site as an up to date source of information not opinion. Sorry to Tim and Stu, as we all know s--t happens in the bush. | |||
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Very sorry to hear about this incident. My thoughts and prayers for a speedy recovery. Many would be well advised to re-read the posts by SFRanger7GP and 465 H&H. The goal is not to assign blame, but to learn ways to lessen the likilihood of recurrence. No analysis will eliminate accidents, but thorough analysis has led to enviable safety records in many equally dangerous fields. I know full well a similar event could happen to me, or anybody. It doesn't mean the entire incident shouldn't be thoroughly reviewed and the lessons disseminated. It may be best to let emotions cool abit, but everyone present almost certainly has a slightly different recollection of the events, and recording their different perspectives while fresh is the best way to really understand what happened. If the final analysis likens the chain of events to an act of god, then so be it, but refusing to seek an analysis is irresponsible. And for most of us mere humans and recreational hunters, there will very likely be few true lessons we can put into action. But the true professionals and highly trained among us may elevate their practices as a result. Bill | |||
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it probably would if you showed your face in Zim again. | |||
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  ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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That is funny.  Damn! Some of you guys are quick witted!!!! I did laugh my ass off. | |||
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Its funny AND true! | |||
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