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The problem is once the hardware is infected, it has to be removed. The little nasties likes to cling to foreign bodies i.e. hardware and thus hard to treat with antibiotics. Once the bone is infected by the bacteria going deep into the bone down the shaft of the screws, it becomes eroded and eaten away thus loosening the hardware. It can be nasty business once the bone is infected. In a minority of cases the infection remains in the bone and causes a chronic long term infection. | |||
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Thanks TX. Not nice so hope it all turns out OK. Know what you mean by screw holes and hardware, not nice. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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At what point in MS are you encouraged to have access to the patient or his files before making such conclusions? | |||
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As much as we like to think otherwise, the art of medicine is an imprecise one. You try to deduce the best diagnosis from the patient's history and physical exam, add that to a lifetime of experience and the most current scientific knowledge and you get your best guess. Even then sometimes you don't get it right. The best you can do is make the best guess with the information you have and that's what I've tried to do here. We started with a broken clavicle and simple wound debridement. It progressed to broken humerus from the concussion and multiple surgeries to put in hardware and possible infection. I'm thinking that we are only getting the tip of the iceberg, not because Tim is intentionally misleading us but that's all the information he has. It's human nature to temper the diagnosis/prognosis. By the time it comes from the doctor to Stu to Tim to us it's been tempered, not intentionally I must stress. Given that things come up with each update and not for the better... Like I said it doesn't take an MD to put things together. We are taught when you hear hoof beats to think of horses not zebras | |||
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And that dear friends is the reason a doctor has a medical practice. He's practicing in the hope of getting it right and the reason a patient is called a patient is because he has to be patient whilst he's waiting for the doctor to practice until he gets it right.  Sorry about the Tx...... I just couldn't resist it!  | |||
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No worries Shakari. Truthfully that is not far from the reality of the practice of Medicine. | |||
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I have had 3 people that I have worked with that have been shot, two by handgun and one by shotgun (birdshot). None of these where life ending incidents, the only one who did not suffer life altering effects was the one who was shot in the head neck and shoulder from #6 birdshot at about 25 yards. The other two where shot basically point blank with 9mm/ 45acp, one by an assailant the other by accidental discharge of a holstered weapon when hit bt the butt of a AR15. One person who received two hits into the upper shoulder and lower butt ended up on disability due to nerve damage. The other person who was shot through the lower leg into the bone also suffered a loss of range of movement and feeling and received a disability. The two that had serious injuries both suffered from impact of the bullet to nerves and bones and the extent of their injuries wasn't fully diagnosed until many months of therapy and rehab. What I am saying here is there stands a very good chance that after trauma of this magnitude from a weapon of tremendous power that the body will not be able to correct itself as it once was , only time will tell, and that is not even taking into consideration of the psychological effect of this incident. NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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Of course no one who gets shot in the back of his left shoulder at close range by a .458 WinMag has suffered a minor injury. The initially reported mere clavicle fracture and stoic conduct by Stu has now morphed into a humerus fracture, badly swollen left arm, extreme pain, and suffering through 4 operations, with repeated hardware placements, so far? Whether swelling is due to refex sympathetic dystrophy (nerve damage), infection, blood clot and impaired venous or lymphatic return, etc., none of that is "minor injury" related. If the clavicle and humerus were fractured by a hit on the clavicle, that suggests some shock transmission through the glenohumeral joint, across the ball and socket formed by the "teacup" of the humeral head sitting in the saucer of the scapula. The shoulder is the most complex and miraculously functional of joints in the human body. Lousy stability but for the strong "rotator cuff" of muscles and tendons keeping the teacup on the saucer, yet allowing 360 degrees of "rotation." If the clavicle and humerus were fractured, then the scapula probably was too, maybe the bullet hit the scapula too. That does take a lot of force, a scapula fracture, like maybe could be dumped by near 5000 ft.lbs of kinetic energy plowing through the shoulder? Probably broke every bone in that shoulder. Probably the teacup and saucer both were shattered. Probably not a mid-shaft humerus fracture down in the arm. As stated, "tempered," wishful, hopeful, third-hand reports are often not reliable. It is still miraculous if the damage was no worse than the worst we have heard here so far. Still hoping for peace, pain relief, and rehabilitation of all involved. | |||
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Here is wishing a speedy recovery to Stu and Tim. This accident could have happened to anyone regardless of the amount of experience or training. Why on earth would would any person feel the need to pick what happend apart I will never know. Some people just dont "get it". | |||
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Just visited Stu and he seems in good spirit(out for the weekend with his girlfriend) but still has pain. It still looks like he will be stuck in rehab for anothr two or three weeks for observation then hopfuly home to Bullawayo. With some luck he might get an Elephant hunt in befor the end of the season. So far infection has not reared its ugly head. Get well soon bud. | |||
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Now, that's good news!!!! JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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That is very good news. All the best, Stu. Praise the Lord. ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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Amen, twoseventy, no infection is answered prayer! | |||
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Thanks to the Lord!  D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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If Stu pulls off a hunt this fall that is a modern miracle in itself. I pray for no infection. That stuff can be as bad or worse than the original problem. | |||
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X2! This is great! | |||
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Outstanding news! | |||
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So glad to hear this !!!! NRA LIFE MEMBER DU DIAMOND SPONSOR IN PERPETUITY DALLAS SAFARI CLUB LIFE MEMBER SCI FOUNDATION MEMBER | |||
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You city boys can make all the excuses you want. This is nothing but a negligent fuck up. I would never hunt with the guy again. I would expect that no one in Africa in their right mind would either. Tell me what is the worst possible thing you could ever do with a firearm? Yeah this is it. | |||
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After 339 comments: Not Great but AWESOME news! | |||
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While not with a rifle, getting hammered by that buffalo would have been worse. If Stu didn't shoot it at the end of his barrel he would be dead, period. Hard to comment until it happens to you and just hope it doesn't. | |||
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But when you hear hoofbeats in Africa, don't you think zebras automatically? I sure do. Infected hardware is no joke. External fixation of the proximal humerus across the joint would be near impossible I would imagine. Been a long time since ortho rotations. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Well ... I for one will hunt with Tim. In fact, I have a deposit paid to hunt with him next summer in Moz. As far a this being the worst possible thing you could ever do with a firearm statement, I strongly disagree. This was an accident caused by a very brief and intense period of stress induced by a dangerous animal in close quarters taking the hunters by surprise. There was no intent to do harm involved here. I would think it much worse to intentionally cause harm with a firearm. Take the example over on the "Down Under" hunting category of this forum. In that instance, a fellow who was certified to conduct safety instruction to hunters shot another hunter across a canyon based on his statement that he "thought he saw deer hair" in an area where another hunter was imitating the "roar" with a mouth call. How do you determine that you see "deer hair" across a valley and then shoot at that "deer hair" expecting to hit a vital organ on a deer, only to find out you've just shot another hunter. Yep, in my book, that type of incident is much worse. I can see how Tim's incident happened. I cannot see how someone can "see deer hair" and decide to shoot at what is truly an unidentified target. | |||
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"caused by a very brief and intense period of stress induced by a dangerous animal in close quarters taking the hunters by surprise." I would replace "stress" with "action". . Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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[/QUOTE] You city boys can make all the excuses you want. This is nothing but a negligent fuck up. I would never hunt with the guy again. I would expect that no one in Africa in their right mind would either. Tell me what is the worst possible thing you could ever do with a firearm? Yeah this is it.[/QUOTE] I'd hunt with Tim Herald in a heart beat. He's a standup kind of guy, who admitted his mistake and brought it to light here on AR himself. Jesus saves, but Moses invests | |||
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AMEN TO THAT!. some people are just born a--holes and some have to mature into that category. man o man, do i wish i was perfect and never made a firearms mistake. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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I agree with you JD. This fellow is just an A-Hole. But then again, I kind of figured that out by his signature line. Most combat vets I know don't go around bragging about burning up 18 year old kids with a flame thrower. Most are a bit more introspective about what they had to do in their country's service. | |||
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I'll volunteer to hunt with Tim & let him walk behind me Yea, I might be a little nervous, but I'd be nervous with ANYONE behind me with a firearm. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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I ain't no city boy. I'll hunt with Tim any day. Great news on Stu. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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My good friend Nigel Theisen took Stu out of rehab today to go get a cup of coffee and visit. The report is that he is doing well but has a long row to hoe with rehab. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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It would be great if anyone else that happens to have some spare time in Johannesburg would go visit him. He would sure appreciate it. | |||
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Wish Stu the best. I'm sure some time out with a mate did him some good. | |||
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Talked to Stu this morning. He was in good spirits, and he has an appointment with his doctor on the 12th. He is hoping that things are healing well, and they may release him from the rehab clinic as early as late next week. Then home to Bulawayo to continue physical therapy. He is working out 3 times a day now. As Adam says, I am sure anyone in the Joburg area that could pop by for a visit would be greatly appreciated. I know Stu is looking forward to getting home, and continuing his healing. Thanks again for all the thoughts and prayers... Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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Thanks for the update Tim. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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I have never hunted with Tim Herald, but I would not hesitate to do so, especially after this incident. Tim, if you like to duck hunt and are in California this fall, you have an open invitation. | |||
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Good to hear. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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This episode is quite thought provoking and has clearly raised emotions and issues. Hunting is sport with the potential for accidents, as is any situation where a number of people are handling firearms and the situation is not 100% controllable. Statistically, accidents will happen from time to time. I'm sure Tim feels guilty and a little embarrassed and will always feel so. I would, regardless of the number of times I re-checked in my mind that it was an accident, not negligence on my part.I hope he gets some peace and reconciles things with himself soon. The only way to be 100% sure there won't be a situation like this, ever, is to take up another sport. Happily both individuals look like they will live to hunt another day. They will both have learned something and have been through a profound experience. When these things happen, you just have to dust yourself off, be thankful that everyone made it through, put it down to experience and get on with life, older and wiser. It seems those involved are best placed to decide how each feels about it. That they are still on good terms should be evidence enough for the rest of us, who were not there and should not rush to judge. It must have taken a great deal of courage for Tim to front up like he did so quickly and so openly. Says a lot about character, in my opinion. | |||
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Small Bore Excellent responce. These 2 men plan on hunting together again next year. That says a lot to me. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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Todd I am amazed to see someone so ignorant of history. You should know that photo is of the battle of Tarawa that occured in Nov 1943. Far from being a teenager he is long dead. Sure some of you might hunt with Tim. I bet not a one of you would turn your back on him and I bet none of you would hunt with him after he shot you. | |||
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LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting SERIOUS Accident with Stu Taylor during Buff hunt
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