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One of Us |
Hi TX, you can (and will) define the nature of the friendship developed between a client and a professional anyway you like. This is an open discussion of experience and opinions. My particular experience tells me the friendships are merely one of convenience. I also believe, Smerican clients are prone to a bit of "Hero Worship". I was guilty of that at one point. The more return trips you make, specially with one company or one fellow, you begin to see things. But only if you are honest enough with yourself to belive what it is you are seeing. I detect some sarcasm? Thats fine, perhaps your experiences are different than mine. As a matter of fact, I truly hope they are. Learning the truth can burn your ass. Make you feel a bit used. Like an ATM. Regards Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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So according to this article, roughly 50% customers tip, the rest don't. I bet the percentage of tippers in the safari industry is much higher. | |||
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Haven't always agreed with you Steve, but by golly, there is true wisdom in this post. | |||
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And there is another point. Where one makes life long friends with his PH and his family. The PH I hunt with right now I have known since he was a 10 year old kid. I have a photo of him sitting on top my first elephant which I shot with his father. He still remembers the first buffalo I have ever shot. He was sitting with his mother and sister watching a herd drink at a waterhole late one afte4rnoon. When suddenly all hell broke loose with a loud bang. A few minutes later, they found out that we had followed that herd for hours, which finally decided to drink from that waterhole. My bull died a few yards into the forest, and I still have photos of him sitting on top of that buffalo with the biggest5 smile one could imagine. | |||
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Somehow many folks forget the word is Guide, not God. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Mike, IIRC...most on AR told you to stick with USA obtained meds...good advice from AR. I take American doxycycline and drink beer or anything else with it in moderation with no problem. There is no contraindications between alcohol (in moderation) and doxy that I know of. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I was just joking Lane. I forgot to put a smiley face. The medicine is fine. I am just sensitive to mixing medicine and alcohol. Besides in Burkina the hunting for lion started pretty early in the morning leaving camp at 4 and getting up at 3.30. Did not normally get to bed till 10.30-11.00 as we did not come in till 7.30-8.00. Took the afternoons off when I caught up with sleep. I should have had a few beers on the drive back to camp every evening but no one carried ice in the coolers. A warm beer did nothing for me. Mike | |||
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So far what I gathered is most of us are Ok with tips, but every one of us have differen expectations and ideas and that is where the tipping point is when it comes to tips We are also learning from this subject more then we ever knew and that makes it extremely educational and pretty much priceless knowledge for future African trips Thanks to everyone here for that " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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Like most hunting consultants/booking agents, I've been asked this question of tipping countless times, and my answer is always, it's a matter of personal preference. I cannot and will not attempt to judge another hunters finances in order to recommend a set amount for tipping. I can only advise of pending personnel involved in their forthcoming hunt and to consider factors such as field and housing staff, PH/Guide and direct associated persons. If the client feels their services given warrant a tip, feel free to do so as their conscious and wallet allow. I find most hunters male and female are quite capable of deciding how much to tip without a formal formula, yet this question is asked the most. I do believe that a pinned thread with guidelines would be very helpful, especially to those who have little or no experience with such things. LDK Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333 Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com NRA Benefactor DSC Professional Member SCI Member RMEF Life Member NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor NAHC Life Member Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262 Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142 Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007 http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409 Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941 10 days in the Stormberg Mountains http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322 Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232 "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running...... "If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you." | |||
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wow I read the entire thread and I can't believe why people would hunt with anyone that would say what they are expected to tip. I just booked my first African hunt and made it a point to not book with anyone that mentioned a tip. I worked for quite a while in the service business in the us while in school and I can say I never waited on one person and expected a tip. guess what? I made much more then my co workers. This African hunt is going to be very expensive to me and I expect to take money out of my retirement just to make it. I will tip as I see fit and what I can afford. It's my vacation. Its a business and I pay my fee's but tips are my discretion. One of my very good friends is a guide in Alaska who works for some of the bigger names and also has his own business. Say's it best. He would rather have someone that appreaciates the hunt then someone that pay's for it. I 've only been on a couple of guided hunts and I didn't tip alot per most people on this threads standards. But it was alot to me and I think the guide knew it as we have stayed friendly. Live life as you could be dead tomorrow. Bruce When there's lead in the air, there's hope!!!! | |||
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LDK, The whole idea of this thread was to get some feedback from both sides, and post it on the African Reference Forum. But, as you have seen so far, it seems we have a very wide gulf between the ends of the discussion. That is why I thought it best to post what members have written to me. Most hunters would rather know in advance what they are expected to pay for the whole safari. Some take into consideration that a tip would be required, and make arrangements for it, and consider it part of the total cost of the hunt. Others question the amount of tip being asked - or recommended - by some PHs. In fact, some members have specifically said they feel as if they are made to pay the salaries of the staff for the duration of their hunts. While it is supposed to have been taken into consideration in the original cost. Some have asked why is it recommended that a PH gets a tip of $100-200 per day when the most paid PH gets is $250-300 per day? Paying him 15% of 300 is going to be just $45 per day. Those who are getting less would get the same percentage which would be much less. The impression I am getting is that very few people actually object to giving tips. What they do seem to object to is the tip being made mandatory. One member went to great length to explain that he tries to get the best hunt for the money he can afford, and suddenly he supposed to pay an additional tip which amounts to thousands of dollars. Some even object to seeing the tip mentioned in hunts offered - as if to be reminded that they should make allowance for it. | |||
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. . . so their solution is to get rid of tips and increase the daily rates.  Mike | |||
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Mike, as I tried to suggest previously in the other thread concerning tips, I think that is exactly what is happening BECAUSE of the level of tipping today. I'm making some assumptions here and obviously oversimplifying the example for brevity's sake but consider that some outfitters have stated as much that they will "make up" to their staff for clients who do not tip, or tip very frugally as the staff really do rely on this source of income. If that is truly the case, consider this example, again, very simplified. With the knowledge that there is no such thing as a true free lunch,, consider 5 safaris of equal duration, for the exact same species booked with an outfitter. Each safari costing $25,000 with anticipated tips of $5,000 per client. That's $30,000 for each client or a total of $150,000 brought into the company (albeit the tips going directly to the staff members as compensation, bypassing the outfitter). What happens if 3 clients from the US book as quoted and pay the average $5K tips, with 2 European hunters booking, paying for the $25,000 safari but tipping $0? That's $140,000 into the company with $10,000 directly short to the staff members. If the outfitter "makes up" that $10,000 to his employees, what do you think will happen to the daily rates next year? I think it likely the base safari rate (adjusted for inflation) will now be $27,000 with $5,000 of expected in tips. Now should those same clients book again, and tip in the same manner, the outfitter is back to his original expectation of $150,000 spread over 5 clients and he now has an additional $10,000 from increased daily rates to "make up" for his staff. That's one of the main objections I have regarding tips being at the level they currently are in today's safaris. Those of us who are tipping are subsidizing non-tipper's safaris! We are paying their tips for them! Of course, this is a catch 22 scenario as an open increase in day rates coupled with a policy of "no tipping" would quickly put us right back into the same situation we are in now, with increased day rates and subsidizing non-tippers again. I don't know how to fix it but I'd prefer to pay for my own safari and have others do the same. That's just me though! | |||
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| One of Us |
Another way to look at it is. A PH signs up with an outfitter expecting to make a fair wage say a per Diem of $200. Outfitter says I cater to an American clientele so I'll pay you $100 and the clients will make up the rest. If you get stiffed, that's life. Is that really fair? These are professionals we depend our lives on shouldn't they get their fair wage and anything above that is "tip". If that takes everyone pay more to guarantee a living wage so be it. A professional should not have to depend on the whim of a client to make a living. Unless $100 per Diem is already a fair wage then a suggestion of a further $100 for "tips" is outrageous. | |||
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Steve I agree that the relationship is one of convenience and I don't really think it's a healthy relationship if your level of friendship is directly related to how much the tip is. It's fine to make lifelong friends with your PH but it should arise from mutual respect not how much you tip. | |||
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Sitting in a South Beach Miami restaurant with a 18 percent service charge levied on everyone. They have a lot of european tourist and just charge a flat 18 percent service charge. Found out chain restaurants don't for corporate reasons. But nearly all independents do. If the safari business margins were so tight and all labor from ph to the gardner needed tips to make ends meet or they would go to their next best alternative. I bet we would see the south beach tipping rule in full force. When I see different prices for europeans and americans, i am going to start believing in razor thin margins in safari industry. And i willing to bet if the margins are razor thin its not due to high labor costs or great alternatives in zim or other sub saharan african countries but because uncle bob and his kin/peers have got damn good at collecting economic rents. Mike | |||
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More like expect to pay for every day efforts | |||
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Well if you ask me I would say due to the fact that it is common practice "customary" in Africa you should tip what YOU are comfortable with and if that means tip massively to make you feel good then go ahead. I tip what I consider satisfactory for a job well done and so far everyone seems to have been happy, always asking when I'm coming back. To me it seem quite strange to tip a guy ten fold in what his actual wage is. | |||
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Saeed this is the only way out of this - bitter pill at first - but whoever jumps on this bandwagon is a winner on the long run. | |||
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That's a fine plan and will work well as long as it's not one of those operators that don't mention a tip but then try to put you into an awkward position at the end of the safari to manipulate you into giving a tip. | |||
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I hope that anyone this happens to makes a point of posting the details on every hunting website! That is all we need, blackmailed into paying a tip! | |||
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Well this has been an enlightening thread....it seems that the only Aussies who tip are Ozhunter and myself......whew.  I have seen some terrible behaviour from outfitters; on my first trip in 95 the outfitter tried to get me to shoot a 48" Kudu on his property in the Northern Cape, when we were supposed to go to the Limpopo to hunt them. I then shot a huge Gemsbok cow whilst hunting with his assistant (the outfitter was sulking); he blew his top.......saying he was saving that gemsbok for some Yank whom he could charge double the listed trophy fee for! For those proponents of huge tipping I can see where that financial leverage gives them advantages when booking repeat hunts etc......its human nature, most people are venal. I do object where the level of tipping is such that the outfitter is essentially passing a fixed cost..labour...onto the customer. I am comfortable with the situation where a fixed service fee is levied by restaurants; you see this in Europe especially in France and Paris...if I receive really excellent service in a Parisian restaurant I will tip on top of this, but I have to shudder at the treatment meted out to the mostly hapless Americans, shunted into corners and back rooms, due to their loud voices and the very fact that they are Americans which the French generally dislike. Being regarded as big tippers as a nationality does not ensure a pleasant experience all the time! | |||
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Your words, not mine mate! 0351 USMC | |||
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Very passionate responses folks!! I have a few points to throw in as well.. -I've been an outfitter in Alberta for over 20 years, averaging about 100 clients per year... -I have hunted all over the world, and especially love my time in Africa... From the outfitters perspective, I am always a little concerned about the tips my guides recieve.. Why? Because I have always believed in hiring the best guides, and I want to ensure they are happy. I pay them more per day, but there is no doubt about it, tips are important for all "full time" guides.. Guides always chat with other guides during off seasons, and most if not all guides, would choose to work where they make the most money.. (all other things being equal) What benefit is this for me? - I have the best paid, happiest guides, and they know this... And they bust there assets!! What benefit is this for you, the paying client? - the same guides, year after year.. They know the area inside and out, they know your good habits, your bad habits, they know you like quite in the am, they know you like coffee before the trucks head out, they know you would rather call the ducks yourself, they know you don't want to call the ducks, etc... This all ads up to a little better hunt, familiar surroundings, and repeat bookings... Repeat bookings means no booking agents, no booking agent means I can pay a higher wage, a higher wage brings the best pool of guides to hire from... So in this case, I truly believe tips play a very important role, in the longevity of a good outfitter.. Africa... Ive been many times, and had experiences good and bad. I now choose to hunt with one PH (Thierry Labbat), and I believe I will just hunt with him, in whatever country or adventure, we can dream up. Why.? Because we know each other, and our habits now, we're great friends, and we hunt well together! Hunting well together is in my opinion, the most important factor!! Are tips important for Thierry? You bet they are!!! There are a few (My guess would be 5%) of guides /PC's that bust it, to be the best. For some it's the best trophies, for some, guiding famous people, others is the love, but no matter what, money is always a play!!! It's the same with all of us!!! Perhaps it's not looked at for each and every client, but you can bet your last dollar, that as a whole, it's very important. I ask Thierry each and every hunt for tip help.. He gives it to me, with the exception of what I should give him. Very classy, very professional.. Twice he has lowered his recommendation on two staff, due to him perceiving some stacking.. (I didn't see it) But even in Africa, the good staff, good trackers, etc, want to work for a great PH. Why? They will get more days in the field, more regular clients, better Fringe benefits, etc... And how does this work? The tips are a still a big factor.. Happy, great hunting teams, will get a better tip on average, and that gives a PH more people to hire from... That creates repeat bookings, or direct references, less booking agent fees, a little better salary, etc... And the circle continues... Everything helps out gang, and I try to do the best I can evaluated of course, upon effort, personality, ethics, trophies, and other events other factor I thing is key... When Thierry won't let me shoot a 30" Waterbuck, because he saw a 32" Waterbuck a month before, and says, "were gonna have to walk our asses off in that Riverbed for three or four days to get a chance. I'm game if your game" When a guy goes that extra mile when he doesn't have to.... Thats the best, and it figures into my equation!! D | |||
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I allways wonder about that tipping-problem... Thanks good, we dont have that in Germany. | |||
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+1 Very well explained Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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. I was very hesitant to come in on this subject but now I'll put in my 2 cents worth. I was recently back in the States in NY for the first time after a long spell and had lost touch on tipping, so I asked a couple at the next table - 15 - 20 % was the answer. Monday I ate at the restaurant - a great 200 gr steak, fries, a beer et cetera, good service and a bill that came at USD 65,-. Working on 15 % the tip came to USD 9.75. Thursday I ate there again - a bigger 350 gr steak, fries, salad and wine et cetera. Same waitress and a bill at USD 112,- Working on 15 % the tip was USD 16.80 Because I opted for the more expensive steak with wine, I was expected to pay USD 7.05 more in tips whilst the waitress pretty much did the same, same smile, same manner, same distance to walk, etc in both scenarios. And this is my bone of content - percentages based on consumption rates / charges! If I have wine i/o beer why should I tip more ? I am very happy to tip for good service but will equally not tip if not satisfied. I recently had a weekend's fishing in RSA with a long standing company but with a totally new guide - in fact I was his first ever client. We caught fish and he worked hard and we got on well together. When I pressed some notes into his handshake when saying thanks and goodbye his look of surprise and then happiness was something I will never forget! Tips imo should be up to the individual and his / her circumstances and should be given as a 'bonus' for that extra mile taking into account the receiver's circumstances as opposed the 'norm' and being taken for granted. . "Up the ladders and down the snakes!" | |||
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Well said. | |||
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That is how it is supposed to work. Excellent post.  Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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http://www.takepart.com/photos...tips-not-appreciated Here is an eye opener for those of us who do not come from a tipping culture. The food service industry pays very little in the US. Some of them may earn as little as US$2.13 per hour! That rate has not changed since 1991! If they do not get tipped adequately, the employer is obliged to make up the balance of minimum wage up to $7.25. But this is never policed / regulated. I realise this is not the Political Forum ... enough said. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Hadn't looked at this thread for a long time. Based on Saeed's compendium, I tend to tip on the high end (my wife has complained about that for 30+ years). But I've never regretted a dime of what I've spent on "tips" in Africa. Those folks earned every dime. And, I can walk into a camp with the same folks and not hang my head. | |||
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My tip to the outfitter/PH is based on my overall safari cost and is adjusted from there on the quality of the trip, etc. This tip does exclude the trackers/skinner/etc. where I ask the PH what would be expected to tip those personnel. In general I would get my "standard" is around 10%. | |||
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who came up with the idea to tip the game scouts? do we tip the game wardens at home? I think not.. these guys are not there to serve us. they are government louts. | |||
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Why should we subsidies an industry that does not pay its workers a decent wage? In fact, if you are going to compare hunting with the food industry it is not going to work. I drive up to a McDonald's window, make my order, pay the asking price, TIPS ARE NOT ACCEPTED!, drive to the pick up window and pick my order. Very fast service provided, no tip required! I go to a 5 star restaurant, the service is atrocious, the price is ridiculous , and I am expected to pay a REQUIRED SERVICE CHARGE of at least 15 per cent??!! When this happens, I make a point of refusing to pay the service charge, and tell the management in no uncertain terms why. The hunting industry should not operate in this fashion. And in my own experience, certainly does not. | |||
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Jack, Your experience might have been different than mine but the government game scouts that have accompanied my safaris have always pitched in with the work and tracking just like the rest of the crew. I've never minded letting them share in the tip because of their contribution and of course it never hurts to keep law enforcement on your side. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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With all of the confusion and guilt over tipping as evident on these boards, might the answer and a brilliant marketing ploy by safari companies be to advertise "no gratuities expected" and charge slightly more for their hunts. For some prospects, this would certainly be a selling point and for many it would ease concerns over how they are perceived by the staff on the "size" of their tips. I will never forget being told what I would tip on a Tanzanian safari after the PH slammed his hand down on the table and told our group our tip was "not acceptable". Just for the record, it was 10% of the daily rates. Not only did we never hunt with him again, that story was told so many times I am sure it kept others away from the outfit as well it should have. No pressure... And the more safaris and international trips I go on, the more I agree with what Steve points out! On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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This Topic will be on here for years to come, As I stated a bunch of pages ago, I am sticking to my $100 per day for Ph and $100 per day for the rest, I have been on 2 Safaris already this year, First a successful Leopard hunt and second a Forest Elephant hunt in Cameroon, Both were tipped accordingly and everyone walked away Happy, My PH in Cameroon who was a Danish PH did not even want to except this amount as a Tip, JK | |||
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They should be happy as these are in my book quite substantial amounts per day. | |||
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Russell, I can assure you the PH you mentioned would never have hunted another of my clients if I had booked the hunt. What you described is outrageous. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting TIPS! The Subject Keeps Coming Up Frequently, Please Help.
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