I don't know why this tipping thing causes such angst. A safari is a commodity. Something you have bought. You own it. Handle all aspects of the tip as you prefer. Don't give a tip. Give a tip. Give what you want to who you want. I think it is only reasonable to consult the PH so you don't upset the pecking order in the camp if you choose to tip but otherwise don't worry about it.

I personally think it is nice to tip and it adds to my safari experience but if it doesn't work for you don't tip and don't loose any sleep over what the safari crew will think of you once you've left. You've already paid to hire them for your safari. You've paid for their service. A tip is something extra.

Whatever tipping structure a particular camp has is not your problem nor is how many people are in the staff your problem. Safari operators often hire a 20 plus person crew because it is politically advantageous to hire as many locals as possible. Don't worry about stretching your budget to give everybody something.

If your going to tip figure out what number works for you and budget for that. If you don't want to tip don't. In either case don't fret about it.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I don't know why this tipping thing causes such angst. A safari is a commodity. Something you have bought. You own it. Handle all aspects of the tip as you prefer. Don't give a tip. Give a tip. Give what you want to who you want. I think it is only reasonable to consult the PH so you don't upset the pecking order in the camp if you choose to tip but otherwise don't worry about it.

I personally think it is nice to tip and it adds to my safari experience but if it doesn't work for you don't tip and don't loose any sleep over what the safari crew will think of you once you've left. You've already paid to hire them for your safari. You've paid for their service. A tip is something extra.

Whatever tipping structure a particular camp has is not your problem nor is how many people are in the staff your problem. Safari operators often hire a 20 plus person crew because it is politically advantageous to hire as many locals as possible. Don't worry about stretching your budget to give everybody something.

If your going to tip figure out what number works for you and budget for that. If you don't want to tip don't. In either case don't fret about it.

Mark

Great post Mark,

Everyone has a budget for their Safari's.

Most will never hunters will never return to the same camp.

If one hunts regularly, and with the same outfit, there are no surprises.

In one goes hunting, and with the idea that he will never go there back again, and pays no tips.

Imagine the next hunter that comes after him to the same camp.

He is an unknown quantity, and the staff might think they will get nothing extra at the end of his hunt.

Imagine what their performance is going to be like.

Mark fantastic post, that should put it to rest!

The following is just one of the messages I got, reflecting how some hunters feel about it.


"...Thanks for doing this survey...My belief is that operators should charge a FLAT RATE w/ no tips expected or encouraged. Raise the prices if they need to for salaries ( including their own & expenses). Tipping stinks, tell me your rate and I will pay that amount. I do tip now but I hate it..."

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Mark fantastic post, that should put it to rest!

If in practice...it were always that simple...it would put it to rest. But anyone who has experienced it knows that there is pressure applied.

Saeed: I believe that I understand, in part, your comment, but no one in a Safari camp should ever expect a tip or a certain amount. Once again, like Mark and I have both said, a tip is discretionary for outstanding service; it is not mandatory, and no one in the Safari camp should come to expect it or a certain amount. If they do, and then treat the next client like crap because they expected a tip from the former and didn't get it, then they are doing nothing but cutting their own throats by preparing to put forth a sub-par performance with the arriving client. Business for that PH will go downhill from there with that type of attitude. No client should be pressured into a tipping schedule or amount. You should be free to do what you feel is best, and tip or not tip. We keep getting tipping and supplemental wages mixed up here for some apparent reason. Just my two cents.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The following is just one of the messages I got, reflecting how some hunters feel about it.


"...Thanks for doing this survey...My belief is that operators should charge a FLAT RATE w/ no tips expected or encouraged. Raise the prices if they need to for salaries ( including their own & expenses). Tipping stinks, tell me your rate and I will pay that amount. I do tip now but I hate it..."

Great, increase the daily rate for everyone and take away any incentive to perform in an exceptional manner all because someone is too weak-kneed to make a decision not to tip at the end of the safari. Some will only be happy once society is completely reduced to the lowest common denominator.

Several members said they had below par treatment right across the board.

From the minute they were picked up from the airport.

To having to deal with a PH who was apparently upset about something, throughout the hunt.

Others have mentioned that they were promised the camp to themselves. But had to share with others.

In all these occasions, a recommendation for tips was given to them at the end of the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Several members said they had below par treatment right across the board.

From the minute they were picked up from the airport.

To having to deal with a PH who was apparently upset about something, throughout the hunt.

Others have mentioned that they were promised the camp to themselves. But had to share with others.

In all these occasions, a recommendation for tips was given to them at the end of the hunt.

So let's fix that by increasing everyone's daily rate on the front end. Surely the absurdity of that is not lost on anyone.

Lane,

I think it is often perceived pressure as folks assume if they do not tip or tip generously that it will effect their safari even if nothing is mentioned about it.

I also think that if your PH is dropping some unsolicited heavy hints (pressure) about tipping and telling stories of camp unrest do to the amount of tips he is way out of line. I think tipping should only come up if the client brings it up. Personally if I run into this situation I'm apt to tip less.

To be clear I think a tip if you've had a good experience on the safari is appropriate but if your not going to tip or feel you can only tip a small amount because of whatever reason just own that decision and don't worry about it. At the end of the day to tip or not and how much to tip is your decision. Tipping or tipping a particular amount is NOT mandatory.

Having said all of the above I like tipping as it is a performance based incentive for folks to do a better than average job and I know if you eliminated tipping altogether you'd get no more than an average job. I also think in reality if you tip well and return to hunt with the same outfit multiple times the crew may work just a little bit harder for you.

Mark

Agreed. Lest any of you think I'm a cheap skate, be it known that I've always tipped on Safari and I have usually tipped very, very good. The whole point of this exercise is to point out that tipping is NOT MANDATORY NOR SHOULD THE AMOUNT BE, NOR SHOULD YOU BE GIVEN A LIST OF TIPS THAT ARE EXPECTED OF AND BY THE STAFF OR BY ANYONE ELSE. A good performance of the PH and Safari Staff should not be based upon an expectation of a tip, which is to reward for excellent and above the norm performance.

From what I read here my plans for all future hunts are as follows...

1. Book all hunts from my European address
2. Hunt early in the year so that my PH and staff aren't in a bad mood yet.
3. Try to follow American parties coming out of the camp so the staff are all happy and feeling rich.
4. When asked about tips by the staff remind them I am actually a German so I don't need to tip unless I want to.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:
So, to put it in perspective. I have a future 21 day hunt that costs, $50,400 in day rates.

If I use $100 per day for the PH and $100 for the camp as suggested above it comes to $4,200.
If I use 10-15% that is $5,040 to $7,5060.
If I use Martin Pieters guideline (%2,000 PH, $500 tracker team, $250 camp manager, $600 staff) then it is $3,450.

Numbers, and expectations are all over the place. In the grand scheme of things if one includes the trophy fees, plane fare, taxes etc. even the 15% tip of $7,5060 is not a big line item.

I think the bigger issue is that one is expected to tip even for bad service as part of the cost of the Safari because tips are expected to be part of the wages.

I think a solution to that is to reserve a nominal amount to be a part of the cost.

A guideline could be.
5% tip for showing up.
10% for good, but not exceptional service.
15%+ for excellent to fantastic service.

This way one knows how much the tip will be based on one's own judgement.

The numbers and expectations are not all over the place. Martin Pieters, who I presume is operator, knows how many staff will be in camp. Use his estimate, or use the other estimate based on a rough per day calculation. The difference is only $800. They are both good ball park numbers.

% of daily rate does not work, imo. It provides too high an estimate on relatively expensive trips and too low on relatively inexpensive trips (speaking og DG trips only.)

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
If one hunts regularly, and with the same outfit, there are no surprises.

In one goes hunting, and with the idea that he will never go there back again, and pays no tips.

Imagine the next hunter that comes after him to the same camp.

He is an unknown quantity, and the staff might think they will get nothing extra at the end of his hunt.

Imagine what their performance is going to be like.

Or the alternative perhaps, they make extra effort to earn a tip.

Who knows how each staff member may react?

Under your scenario, one would hope to never follow Europeans, Australians or New Zealanders in to the same camp.

On the other hand, Europeans, Australians and New Zealanders ought to love the opportunity to follow me or MJines into cap, eh?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Saeed: I believe that I understand, in part, your comment, but no one in a Safari camp should ever expect a tip or a certain amount. Once again, like Mark and I have both said, a tip is discretionary for outstanding service; it is not mandatory, and no one in the Safari camp should come to expect it or a certain amount. If they do, and then treat the next client like crap because they expected a tip from the former and didn't get it, then they are doing nothing but cutting their own throats by preparing to put forth a sub-par performance with the arriving client. Business for that PH will go downhill from there with that type of attitude. No client should be pressured into a tipping schedule or amount. You should be free to do what you feel is best, and tip or not tip. We keep getting tipping and supplemental wages mixed up here for some apparent reason. Just my two cents.

No, you are ignoring the incentive compensation element of tipping. And tipping IS incentive based supplemental wages, by its very nature.

As far as recommendations, I suspect they are given because so many hunters obviously stress over the issue. They are most likely based on an average of previous tips, that is what I have asked for when I have asked for the PH's recommendations. I suspect and hope that if a recommendation is given on the PH's initiative, without request by the customer, that it is done in an effort to be helpful rather than to apply pressure, which seems to be an unintended consequence.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Several members said they had below par treatment right across the board.

From the minute they were picked up from the airport.

To having to deal with a PH who was apparently upset about something, throughout the hunt.

Others have mentioned that they were promised the camp to themselves. But had to share with others.

In all these occasions, a recommendation for tips was given to them at the end of the hunt.

First, I am curious if they were given the recommendation because they asked for one. Do you know Saeed?

Second, who cares? If you got sub par service do everyone a favor and do not tip. Then there is a hope that the staff and PH will pull their heads out of their behinds and realize they screwed themselves out of additional income, performance based, because their performance was lacking.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Several members said they had below par treatment right across the board.

From the minute they were picked up from the airport.

To having to deal with a PH who was apparently upset about something, throughout the hunt.

Others have mentioned that they were promised the camp to themselves. But had to share with others.

In all these occasions, a recommendation for tips was given to them at the end of the hunt.

So let's fix that by increasing everyone's daily rate on the front end. Surely the absurdity of that is not lost on anyone.

X2!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Lane,

I think it is often perceived pressure as folks assume if they do not tip or tip generously that it will effect their safari even if nothing is mentioned about it.

I also think that if your PH is dropping some unsolicited heavy hints (pressure) about tipping and telling stories of camp unrest do to the amount of tips he is way out of line. I think tipping should only come up if the client brings it up. Personally if I run into this situation I'm apt to tip less.

To be clear I think a tip if you've had a good experience on the safari is appropriate but if your not going to tip or feel you can only tip a small amount because of whatever reason just own that decision and don't worry about it. At the end of the day to tip or not and how much to tip is your decision. Tipping or tipping a particular amount is NOT mandatory.

Having said all of the above I like tipping as it is a performance based incentive for folks to do a better than average job and I know if you eliminated tipping altogether you'd get no more than an average job. I also think in reality if you tip well and return to hunt with the same outfit multiple times the crew may work just a little bit harder for you.

Mark

Mark,
While it may be out of line...it happens all the time. I even hear it in discussions at the dinner table at the shows. I think this thread demonstrates clearly the amount of affect it can have on people. And...the fact remains that it has become expected.

If it really were the way you described it in your post that Mart seconded...it would be just right...trouble is...it is not.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Lane,

I think it is often perceived pressure as folks assume if they do not tip or tip generously that it will effect their safari even if nothing is mentioned about it.

I also think that if your PH is dropping some unsolicited heavy hints (pressure) about tipping and telling stories of camp unrest do to the amount of tips he is way out of line. I think tipping should only come up if the client brings it up. Personally if I run into this situation I'm apt to tip less.

To be clear I think a tip if you've had a good experience on the safari is appropriate but if your not going to tip or feel you can only tip a small amount because of whatever reason just own that decision and don't worry about it. At the end of the day to tip or not and how much to tip is your decision. Tipping or tipping a particular amount is NOT mandatory.

Having said all of the above I like tipping as it is a performance based incentive for folks to do a better than average job and I know if you eliminated tipping altogether you'd get no more than an average job. I also think in reality if you tip well and return to hunt with the same outfit multiple times the crew may work just a little bit harder for you.

Mark

Mark,
While it may be out of line...it happens all the time. I even hear it in discussions at the dinner table at the shows. I think this thread demonstrates clearly the amount of affect it can have on people. And...the fact remains that it has become expected.

If it really were the way you described it in your post that Mart seconded...it would be just right...trouble is...it is not.

Tipping is important to PH's and staff because it can be a significant portion of their compensation for your hunt. That is a good thing, since it is incentive compensation. Turn this to your advantage, ensure it is known to be a reward for service, effort, performance and enthusiasm only.

You could do this as a preemptive act if you wish, by simply informing the PH that you have heard from other hunters of the mention of tips and tipping by the PH, that you don't want to hear it, lay out your view and be done with it. That is not the way I would handle it, but perhaps you would feel unburdened doing it, eh?

I haven't had a hint of it, but if mention of a tip is made by a PH during a hunt as you say is so common, there is a very, very simple way to put and end to it, remove any expectation and make it very, very clear that any tip you grant is a reward for performance - only. And that is what I would do, as follows.

Ignore the first mention of a tip in the hope it was a slip that is never repeated.

The second time you hear it simply inform your PH, that your view on tips is that they are a matter in your sole and exclusive discretion - which they are - and that you determine of what, if anything, you tip will be based on service, effort, performance and enthusiasm only - which should be the case - that if you wish his input on the topic you will ask for it - which should also be the case.

If even the beginning of another utterance is made, remind him of your view on tipping, your exclusive discretion and determination and tell him you will not tolerate one more reference.

That should put an end to it.

If it doesn't end it, well, three strike and he is out. I would get on the sat phone or radio to the booking agent or operator and make hell and demand a replacement PH and a refund for time spent with the ass. I sure wouldn't want to continue to hunt with him after he has proven so thoroughly how stupid he is.

JPK

As a long time guide I hate it when you get American hunters who start dropping the hints that you are going to get a big tip if you 'produce' and look after them. I do my best for all hunters and that includes Joe Average, who is stretching things just to go on the hunt in the first place.

Usually the guys who do drop the hints about generous tips are the worst ones to be in the bush with.

I like Macs B's last post. Cynical, but accurate and it made me smile.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Lane,

I think it is often perceived pressure as folks assume if they do not tip or tip generously that it will effect their safari even if nothing is mentioned about it.

I also think that if your PH is dropping some unsolicited heavy hints (pressure) about tipping and telling stories of camp unrest do to the amount of tips he is way out of line. I think tipping should only come up if the client brings it up. Personally if I run into this situation I'm apt to tip less.

To be clear I think a tip if you've had a good experience on the safari is appropriate but if your not going to tip or feel you can only tip a small amount because of whatever reason just own that decision and don't worry about it. At the end of the day to tip or not and how much to tip is your decision. Tipping or tipping a particular amount is NOT mandatory.

Having said all of the above I like tipping as it is a performance based incentive for folks to do a better than average job and I know if you eliminated tipping altogether you'd get no more than an average job. I also think in reality if you tip well and return to hunt with the same outfit multiple times the crew may work just a little bit harder for you.

Mark

Mark,
While it may be out of line...it happens all the time. I even hear it in discussions at the dinner table at the shows. I think this thread demonstrates clearly the amount of affect it can have on people. And...the fact remains that it has become expected.

If it really were the way you described it in your post that Mart seconded...it would be just right...trouble is...it is not.

Mark of your American clients who have not had a great safari experience. Has anyone not left a tip - walked out of camp tipping no one?

The problem is not that people not don't want to pay a tip for exception service. Forget exceptional it has become required customary end of safari event for ordinary service.

Its exactly like US restaurant service - on your amex card there is a prearranged point to enter a tip. No one puts a prearranged payment entry unless it is customary and done by 95% plus of the people - the exact percentages and $ of tips may vary but the law of large numbers holds an it adds up to 15% across all restaurants. The rule of thumb.

If tipping was only for exception service - most tips would be wired back to outfitter after the exception safari cause no one carries tip money in anticipation of an exception safari.

Tips are just a service charge at end of safari - may vary a little but most americans will tip something regardless of safari experience. The europeans have a free ride cause we american dominate the safari business.

Lets not compare PH and safari staff to complex incentive compensation schemes it is much more like restaurant tipping - its for service not quantifiable results. You want a brutal incentive scheme - look at hedge fund/private equity/ alternative investment compensation compensation structures. If there is no quantifiable result there is no compensation. No 90 pounds elephant - don't care if the whole camp worked it ass off there no tip payment. No sane minded PH hunting wild animals would agree to such a structure cause hunting is very random and trophy size is every difficult to control.

Tipping on safari is no different that tipping your waiter at a good restaurant. Its for quality of service not outcome. The outcome is largely predetermined - choice of outfitter, hunting area, cost of safari purchase.

My worthless 2 cents. I may not know much about safari tipping having only done 4. But I have spent my professional care in performance based incentive scheme compensations structure and have lived died and lived again by that sword. The safari business is not it - its a service business. I don't want to start ranting about compensation for management in public corporations and situations where equity value/public owners see their stock driven into the ground and management collect nice cash bonuses and salary as they worthless options become more worthless. Lets hope that is not where the safari tipping model is heading.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Lane,

I think it is often perceived pressure as folks assume if they do not tip or tip generously that it will effect their safari even if nothing is mentioned about it.

I also think that if your PH is dropping some unsolicited heavy hints (pressure) about tipping and telling stories of camp unrest do to the amount of tips he is way out of line. I think tipping should only come up if the client brings it up. Personally if I run into this situation I'm apt to tip less.

To be clear I think a tip if you've had a good experience on the safari is appropriate but if your not going to tip or feel you can only tip a small amount because of whatever reason just own that decision and don't worry about it. At the end of the day to tip or not and how much to tip is your decision. Tipping or tipping a particular amount is NOT mandatory.

Having said all of the above I like tipping as it is a performance based incentive for folks to do a better than average job and I know if you eliminated tipping altogether you'd get no more than an average job. I also think in reality if you tip well and return to hunt with the same outfit multiple times the crew may work just a little bit harder for you.

Mark

Mark,
While it may be out of line...it happens all the time. I even hear it in discussions at the dinner table at the shows. I think this thread demonstrates clearly the amount of affect it can have on people. And...the fact remains that it has become expected.

If it really were the way you described it in your post that Mart seconded...it would be just right...trouble is...it is not.

Tipping is important to PH's and staff because it can be a significant portion of their compensation for your hunt. That is a good thing, since it is incentive compensation. Turn this to your advantage, ensure it is known to be a reward for service, effort, performance and enthusiasm only.

You could do this as a preemptive act if you wish, by simply informing the PH that you have heard from other hunters of the mention of tips and tipping by the PH, that you don't want to hear it, lay out your view and be done with it. That is not the way I would handle it, but perhaps you would feel unburdened doing it, eh?

I haven't had a hint of it, but if mention of a tip is made by a PH during a hunt as you say is so common, there is a very, very simple way to put and end to it, remove any expectation and make it very, very clear that any tip you grant is a reward for performance - only. And that is what I would do, as follows.

Ignore the first mention of a tip in the hope it was a slip that is never repeated.

The second time you hear it simply inform your PH, that your view on tips is that they are a matter in your sole and exclusive discretion - which they are - and that you determine of what, if anything, you tip will be based on service, effort, performance and enthusiasm only - which should be the case - that if you wish his input on the topic you will ask for it - which should also be the case.

If even the beginning of another utterance is made, remind him of your view on tipping, your exclusive discretion and determination and tell him you will not tolerate one more reference.

That should put an end to it.

If it doesn't end it, well, three strike and he is out. I would get on the sat phone or radio to the booking agent or operator and make hell and demand a replacement PH and a refund for time spent with the ass. I sure wouldn't want to continue to hunt with him after he has proven so thoroughly how stupid he is.

JPK

For me personally and the guys I hunt with...its not a problem...at all.

But I just think it has become a problem in the industry as it has become too much of an expectation.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
As a long time guide I hate it when you get American hunters who start dropping the hints that you are going to get a big tip if you 'produce' and look after them. I do my best for all hunters and that includes Joe Average, who is stretching things just to go on the hunt in the first place.

Usually the guys who do drop the hints about generous tips are the worst ones to be in the bush with.

I like Macs B's last post. Cynical, but accurate and it made me smile.

Wow!! I have certainly learned quite a bit about tipping.

Am I going to change anything....

Nope!! Unless I hunt NZ or OZ. Thanks!!

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
As a long time guide I hate it when you get American hunters who start dropping the hints that you are going to get a big tip if you 'produce' and look after them. I do my best for all hunters and that includes Joe Average, who is stretching things just to go on the hunt in the first place.

Usually the guys who do drop the hints about generous tips are the worst ones to be in the bush with.

I like Macs B's last post. Cynical, but accurate and it made me smile.

I doubt that you start talking tip early on, right?

I would view the overt mention by a client as poorly as I would view the overt mention by a PH.

Whether it's the PH who acts like an ass or the client doesn't make the difference, that person is probably not going to be enjoyable or pleasant spending time with.

Since tips are unimportant to you, do you refuse them from all customers? From some customers?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Lane,

I think it is often perceived pressure as folks assume if they do not tip or tip generously that it will effect their safari even if nothing is mentioned about it.

I also think that if your PH is dropping some unsolicited heavy hints (pressure) about tipping and telling stories of camp unrest do to the amount of tips he is way out of line. I think tipping should only come up if the client brings it up. Personally if I run into this situation I'm apt to tip less.

To be clear I think a tip if you've had a good experience on the safari is appropriate but if your not going to tip or feel you can only tip a small amount because of whatever reason just own that decision and don't worry about it. At the end of the day to tip or not and how much to tip is your decision. Tipping or tipping a particular amount is NOT mandatory.

Having said all of the above I like tipping as it is a performance based incentive for folks to do a better than average job and I know if you eliminated tipping altogether you'd get no more than an average job. I also think in reality if you tip well and return to hunt with the same outfit multiple times the crew may work just a little bit harder for you.

Mark

Mark,
While it may be out of line...it happens all the time. I even hear it in discussions at the dinner table at the shows. I think this thread demonstrates clearly the amount of affect it can have on people. And...the fact remains that it has become expected.

If it really were the way you described it in your post that Mart seconded...it would be just right...trouble is...it is not.

Mark of your American clients who have not had a great safari experience. Has anyone not left a tip - walked out of camp tipping no one?

The problem is not that people not don't want to pay a tip for exception service. Forget exceptional it has become required customary end of safari event for ordinary service.

Its exactly like US restaurant service - on your amex card there is a prearranged point to enter a tip. No one puts a prearranged payment entry unless it is customary and done by 95% plus of the people - the exact percentages and $ of tips may vary but the law of large numbers holds an it adds up to 15% across all restaurants. The rule of thumb.

If tipping was only for exception service - most tips would be wired back to outfitter after the exception safari cause no one carries tip money in anticipation of an exception safari.

Tips are just a service charge at end of safari - may vary a little but most americans will tip something regardless of safari experience. The europeans have a free ride cause we american dominate the safari business.

Lets not compare PH and safari staff to complex incentive compensation schemes it is much more like restaurant tipping - its for service not quantifiable results. You want a brutal incentive scheme - look at hedge fund/private equity/ alternative investment compensation compensation structures. If there is no quantifiable result there is no compensation. No 90 pounds elephant - don't care if the whole camp worked it ass off there no tip payment. No sane minded PH hunting wild animals would agree to such a structure cause hunting is very random and trophy size is every difficult to control.

Tipping on safari is no different that tipping your waiter at a good restaurant. Its for quality of service not outcome. The outcome is largely predetermined - choice of outfitter, hunting area, cost of safari purchase.

My worthless 2 cents. I may not know much about safari tipping having only done 4. But I have spent my professional care in performance based incentive scheme compensations structure and have lived died and lived again by that sword. The safari business is not it - its a service business. I don't want to start ranting about compensation for management in public corporations and situations where equity value/public owners see their stock driven into the ground and management collect nice cash bonuses and salary as they worthless options become more worthless. Lets hope that is not where the safari tipping model is heading.

Mike

That is the most accurate post I have read yet on this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
As a long time guide I hate it when you get American hunters who start dropping the hints that you are going to get a big tip if you 'produce' and look after them. I do my best for all hunters and that includes Joe Average, who is stretching things just to go on the hunt in the first place.

Usually the guys who do drop the hints about generous tips are the worst ones to be in the bush with.

I like Macs B's last post. Cynical, but accurate and it made me smile.

Herein lies the rub.

"I hate it when you get Americans"

Long ago, I stopped looking at the Client/PH relationship as one of "friendship." I go into these things seeing it, eyes wide open, as a business relationship.

If we look forward to the safari and pursue a friendship, we are bound to make errors in how WE conduct the safari. You may not complain about something, you may not tell him what you really want to do. You really want him to like you....right?

If I feel good about the thing at the end, tips will be commensurate with the quality of the experience. But it needs to be all about the quality and not trying to "get him to like you."

If you cannot afford to tip the "customary amount" stay home. Safari hunting is expensive, extraordinarily expensive. There is no way to shortcut the experience.

I have a guest editorial coming out in "An African Hunting Magazine", (next issue) that speaks to this exact point. Gonna piss off some folks. But it needs to be addressed by the industry as a whole, not just on AR.

Just one man's opinion.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Lane,

I think it is often perceived pressure as folks assume if they do not tip or tip generously that it will effect their safari even if nothing is mentioned about it.

I also think that if your PH is dropping some unsolicited heavy hints (pressure) about tipping and telling stories of camp unrest do to the amount of tips he is way out of line. I think tipping should only come up if the client brings it up. Personally if I run into this situation I'm apt to tip less.

To be clear I think a tip if you've had a good experience on the safari is appropriate but if your not going to tip or feel you can only tip a small amount because of whatever reason just own that decision and don't worry about it. At the end of the day to tip or not and how much to tip is your decision. Tipping or tipping a particular amount is NOT mandatory.

Having said all of the above I like tipping as it is a performance based incentive for folks to do a better than average job and I know if you eliminated tipping altogether you'd get no more than an average job. I also think in reality if you tip well and return to hunt with the same outfit multiple times the crew may work just a little bit harder for you.

Mark

Mark,
While it may be out of line...it happens all the time. I even hear it in discussions at the dinner table at the shows. I think this thread demonstrates clearly the amount of affect it can have on people. And...the fact remains that it has become expected.

If it really were the way you described it in your post that Mart seconded...it would be just right...trouble is...it is not.

Mark of your American clients who have not had a great safari experience. Has anyone not left a tip - walked out of camp tipping no one?

The problem is not that people not don't want to pay a tip for exception service. Forget exceptional it has become required customary end of safari event for ordinary service.

Its exactly like US restaurant service - on your amex card there is a prearranged point to enter a tip. No one puts a prearranged payment entry unless it is customary and done by 95% plus of the people - the exact percentages and $ of tips may vary but the law of large numbers holds an it adds up to 15% across all restaurants. The rule of thumb.

If tipping was only for exception service - most tips would be wired back to outfitter after the exception safari cause no one carries tip money in anticipation of an exception safari.

Tips are just a service charge at end of safari - may vary a little but most americans will tip something regardless of safari experience. The europeans have a free ride cause we american dominate the safari business.

Lets not compare PH and safari staff to complex incentive compensation schemes it is much more like restaurant tipping - its for service not quantifiable results. You want a brutal incentive scheme - look at hedge fund/private equity/ alternative investment compensation compensation structures. If there is no quantifiable result there is no compensation. No 90 pounds elephant - don't care if the whole camp worked it ass off there no tip payment. No sane minded PH hunting wild animals would agree to such a structure cause hunting is very random and trophy size is every difficult to control.

Tipping on safari is no different that tipping your waiter at a good restaurant. Its for quality of service not outcome. The outcome is largely predetermined - choice of outfitter, hunting area, cost of safari purchase.

My worthless 2 cents. I may not know much about safari tipping having only done 4. But I have spent my professional care in performance based incentive scheme compensations structure and have lived died and lived again by that sword. The safari business is not it - its a service business. I don't want to start ranting about compensation for management in public corporations and situations where equity value/public owners see their stock driven into the ground and management collect nice cash bonuses and salary as they worthless options become more worthless. Lets hope that is not where the safari tipping model is heading.

Mike

That is the most accurate post I have read yet on this thread.

The fellow running a company for a private equity firm or whatever, he is in a service business as well, not much different than the waiter at a restaurant or the PH, even if the company he is running is a manufacturer. It is his service and his performance being judged, as it is reflected in the FS of the company he runs and perhaps other criteria he probably had a hand in developing.

The definition and criteria, or metrics, of what constitutes performance warranting incentive compensation change from CEO to waiter to fishing mate to PH, that is all. And perhaps in some of the private equity, et, al environments the all or nothing potential, though that is far from universal, and I too have been in the midst of it.

If an individual is so weak or so lacking in self confidence that he cannot make and live with a decision he believes is right and fair for all under the circumstances it is only a personal failing. No more, no less.

f you walk away from a safari or the dinner table feeling screwed regarding your tip, look in the mirror, you screwed yourself.

JPK

To be clear I think a tip if you've had a good experience on the safari is appropriate but if your not going to tip or feel you can only tip a small amount because of whatever reason just own that decision and don't worry about it. At the end of the day to tip or not and how much to tip is your decision. Tipping or tipping a particular amount is NOT mandatory.

Mark[/QUOTE]

Mark, as long as the tip is the major income for the people working on your safari I think it is unfair to the staff to say that is it not mandatory.

For us hunters from Europe this is something very strange. As I mentioned in another treadh a friend of me went for a buffalo hunt in Tanzania last year. He had asked the agent (Swedish agent) about tipping before he went to the hunt and got the answere that there was no one expecting a tip. He planned to give the tip of his lifetime if the hunt was good, he and his friend was planning to leave US$300in total tip to the people involved in their hunt. The last ewening the PH gave them a list of the expected tips to all staff involved adding several thousands of $$$ in expenses. They managed to save the situation only by luck, not easy to find a ATM in the bush.

Same for the only safari I have made. If CMS not have put the recomended tip on the webbsite, I would have budgetet for a $200-400 in total for tip to the people involved in my hunt, and that would been the tip of a life time. But thanks to CMS to put it upfront on the webbsite so that I understand the gravity of the situation beforehand.

The big problem as I see it is that the fantastic people employed in this business will not get there salarys (as long as the income from tips is the main income) when they get European customers. We don't have the tipping culture (I have never visited the US, have no previous encounter with the tipping system), but it does not mean that we apreciate the fantastic service less than hunters that comes from countries with a tipping culture. We are just used to our system were people are paid by the employer to do the jobb

I think the discussion has gone all over the place.

I would like to summarise and highlight the issues as I see them (again?)

1. Tipping is normal & universal in AFRICAN safari business (not Australian or NZ!!)
2. Tipping is an incentive based addition to normal wages. Any way you look at it, it is a significant part of the individuals annual income
3. Tipping is discretionary & based on perceived quality of service

THE ISSUES

1. Some service providers assume that tipping is mandatory & expect it. They may even presurise the client
2. Most clients resent this mandatory expectation & pressure
3. There is wide variation in the expected tips or recommended tips for a similar hunt. This is the BIG issue for me.

Being a Kiwi & unsure about the whole subject, I have done a lot of research on various African hunting sites. In another thread I posted a comparison of 3 sites' recommendations for a 7 to 10 day Buffalo / PG hunt. I found 2 were very close and the third was about 70% higher! All three are very well respected and credible operators!

There are other recommendations which would be 200% higher! Unsurprisingly it was a wealthy high end hunter from the US who tipped 25% of Daily rate or some such!

My final conclusion is to take Mark's advise & "don't fret". I am just going to enjoy the hunt and treat everyone with respect. One lifetime hunt is not going to be spoiled by this messy issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Several members said they had below par treatment right across the board.

From the minute they were picked up from the airport.

To having to deal with a PH who was apparently upset about something, throughout the hunt.

Others have mentioned that they were promised the camp to themselves. But had to share with others.

In all these occasions, a recommendation for tips was given to them at the end of the hunt.

40% of my salary is variable. It has a definite effect on how I approach my work!

If I suffered the above safari, I would sure hope that the tip system was still in play...that way I could lodge my complaint by withholding some or all of the tip.

If all compensation was given up front, I would have no recourse...other than to never return.


Tim

This is interesting. It seems that some of our memebers believe that there are forces beyond their control that force them tip even if they really don't want to or are culturally opposed to tipping. To that I say bologna. Once again the safari is something you bought. You own it. Do as you want but take responsibility for your decision. Don't blame it on this ot that. It's your decision.

Guys, as Steve Aurenberg said this is a business relationship. If you loose sight of that your setting yourself up for disappointment.

Now in the case of folks that are totally ignorant about tipping as P-A Ahlen described I think it is the agent or safari operators job to tactfully before the safari tell the hunter that often a tip is given at the end of the safari. Once again though a tip is NOT mandatory.

I don't know who has left tips and who hasn't because I don't think tips are anyone's business except the client's and the crew's. I never ask.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

If you walk away from a safari or the dinner table feeling screwed regarding your tip, look in the mirror, you screwed yourself.

Bingo!

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

If you cannot afford to tip the "customary amount" stay home. Safari hunting is expensive, extraordinarily expensive. There is no way to shortcut the experience.

Just one man's opinion.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

If you cannot afford to tip the "customary amount" stay home. Safari hunting is expensive, extraordinarily expensive. There is no way to shortcut the experience.

Just one man's opinion.

Steve

One man's very correct opinion Steve.

Mike

I am going to borrow another thought from a PH - owner operator about his thought on tipping:

The whole tipping thing is out of control. I own a business there, and hire out the best guys possible.

Everyone wants a tip, they all want to make more money. The newest guys with minimal experience get paid very little. They are not usually the best or most experienced staff. When they prove their worth to a client, that means something to me. They get to work for me again. It also shows when the client hunter appreciates them as well with a bonus called the "tip". Many spend the first few weeks here at no pay tagging along with one of us more experienced PH's. We see how they interact and how well they judge trophies and track game along with other duties.

The well experienced guys I know are good, and I trust completely. In this business in many cases you trust them with your life! They get paid well, far better then the 21 year old fresh out of school. Getting a tip is a tiny bit less meaningful because they are already paid well. However they will get you in the right place at the right time to find the best trophies possible consistently. Should that also be worth something after gaining the experience and reputation they have earned?

Probably much like an attorney or a doctor, beginners make less money. Should this be on the shoulders of the business owner? sure, much of that is with the pay scale that reflects experience and skills. This is a peculiar work roll. It's not a waiter, car hop, Pizza delivery, maid etc.

This is an incredibly skilled level of employment, it's difficult to achieve as can be seen by the 50% drop out and fail rate during testing. There is a natural skill set involved that cannot be taught. Much like a professional athletes ability to play well in their sport. There is the need to be articulate and knowledgeable about life and the world as well. The elite clients that visit and talk around the campfire are in conversations that range across the board.

This creates a very complicated dynamic. Skilled athletes and entertainers are not hourly wage earners. Nor are doctors and lawyers. They don't work for tips.

Yet there is a lower skill set of employment, and service rolls for which many of those folks must work to earn tips. The PH is a hybrid of sorts that is the higher skill set and responsible for your life, yet he finds himself in this need to be tipped for his efforts.

Yeah it is complicated. There was a two year period in the late 90's where I ran my business with no tipping but upped the prices to cover the amount of tips my staff was worthy of. On the surface those booking hunts loved this program. It solved all the "extra" money needed for tips issues. They never cared about the prices being a bit higher for trophy fee and daily fee in the beginning. This model involved roughly 40 hunts run this way.

Then out of the blue, I start getting this; Why should I pay for you to include tipping if the PH I hunt with ends up not working out? What if I feel he was not that good? Then you're subsidizing his poor performance. Where is his incentive to go the extra mile or work harder when I have no control over the outcome?

All of a sudden my "perfect solution" crumbled to the ground and failed me. The majority of the hunters were turning on the no tipping policy! They felt they wanted to be in direct control by holding the purse strings of the PH! So as a business owner, and a PH myself, now what? Neither strategy is now acceptable!

Yes the whole tipping thing is really a frustration for everyone involved. It's not just the PH it's the staff as well. Imagine having 12 blacks working for the business. 4 interact with the clients as maids, trackers skinners. The other 8 are in labour positions which never actually interact with the hunters.

At the end of the 10 day safari 4 people get paid more in tips, and 8 get nothing additional. Yet without them all the business suffers. Now I have 8 people wanting higher pay, or to get the tips shared. But the clients pay the staff directly! I stopped this practice for several years and told the clients to pay the tips to me so I could share them with the whole staff they do not see or work with. Many clients actually said to me, so you're doing this to pocket a few extra bucks! ......Yeah right...... seriously?

That became a disaster as well for a multitude of reasons. So I implemented a work advancement program. Many of the staff were not english speaking so they would not qualify for positions to interact with clients as an example. I have several that worked hard to make their english better. They had opportunities for other work then.

This is not just complicated on the side of the hunter my friends, it's a struggle for me as well!

I'll comment again and touch on a number of topics that others have addressed. First, let me start with the fact that I love Tanzania, I will continue to hunt Tanzania, and I will continue to hunt with the same outfit. Now that changes things somewhat, as others have noted.

Second, in Tanzania, people's estimates of 10 people in camp is ridiculous. Minimum of 16 and up to 20 or more is my experience. So, $100 a day "for the staff" doesn't go very far.

I've never had staff not bust their butt to make me happy, each in their way, based on their respective jobs. So I tend to tip well, based on great effort. As some have said, great effort generates great results, and that has generally been the case.

But it's not the result that generates the "tip". It's a job well-earned. I probably tip too much. I've always tipped over what was "recommended." But I've always felt the guys, and gals in one or two instances, earned it and went above and beyond, including the folks I never saw until the last day.

Plus it's always interesting when you come back and you recognize that tracker or camp staff, who you hunted with before, and remember him by name. If you tipped well the last time they seem to remember you. If you didn't, I suspect they would remember you as well.

I've always expected and received first rate service in Tanzania, but I've always hunted with a first-rate outfit. I will reward that first rate effort and performance. How many times can I do this? And, I can't take it with me.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I'll comment again and touch on a number of topics that others have addressed. First, let me start with the fact that I love Tanzania, I will continue to hunt Tanzania, and I will continue to hunt with the same outfit. Now that changes things somewhat, as others have noted.

Second, in Tanzania, people's estimates of 10 people in camp is ridiculous. Minimum of 16 and up to 20 or more is my experience. So, $100 a day "for the staff" doesn't go very far.

I've never had staff not bust their butt to make me happy, each in their way, based on their respective jobs. So I tend to tip well, based on great effort. As some have said, great effort generates great results, and that has generally been the case.

But it's not the result that generates the "tip". It's a job well-earned. I probably tip too much. I've always tipped over what was "recommended." But I've always felt the guys, and gals in one or two instances, earned it and went above and beyond, including the folks I never saw until the last day.

Plus it's always interesting when you come back and you recognize that tracker or camp staff, who you hunted with before, and remember him by name. If you tipped well the last time they seem to remember you. If you didn't, I suspect they would remember you as well.

I've always expected and received first rate service in Tanzania, but I've always hunted with a first-rate outfit. I will reward that first rate effort and performance. How many times can I do this? And, I can't take it with me.

You and me are in the same boat.

But, many other hunters are not.

Some might be able to afford just one lifetime African safari.

Some - out of choice - do not hunt with the same outfit again.