quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
...

With the scenario reversed now, they should have at least tipped that cute blond at 100% more and been happy with it because she made sure that here clients were happy, well taken care of always had a full belly and a cold one in their hands after a hard day’s work,

sounds similar to the work done in camp by the staff.

...

No, the cute blond was taking care of more than your party. So her aggregate tips were her incentive compensation, not your tip alone.

No, not similar to the work done in camp, the cute blond was serving more customers, see above.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Lane,

Please explain the PH tip.

Are you suggesting 100-150% of his daily pay as a tip?

What I ment was:

If the daily rate is $1000.00/day a tip should be:

10-14 day safari: PH tip => ~$1000.00 (one daily rate) +/-

21-30 day safari: PH tip => ~$1500.00 (one and half a daily rate) +/-

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
When I am in camp later this year I hope I do not share it with someone who makes comments like "you should stay home...".

I honestly believe that the outfitter would be offended as much me!

I believe that any discussion here on AR should be like around a camp fire.

It is a pity that some people forget their manners in an international forum.

Naki,

You feel it's appropriate to go on a safari that you can afford everything but gratuities? Imagine telling the PH and staff at the end when they line up for tips, Sorry gent's, I over-extended myself a bit. I've got nothing left for tips!!

I'm sure they would love to have you back the following season.

Steve

Just an observation, and this concerns hunting with guides in America. Over the years since I started guiding, I have noticed a few things concerning the subject of tips/tipping.

One, while it seems from some of the responses here that Americans are the guilty party when the whole concept of tipping arises, from experience and conversations with other guides, Americans seem to be a lot more generous in their tipping practices when in Africa than when here at home.

Two, I have discouraged a few young guys from getting into guiding because in conversations with them their main reason for wanting to guide was because of the huge tips they would be getting. If someone is going to be a guide and their best reason for doing so is the prospect of huge tips, they need to find another line of work.

Three, from experience, not all Americans believe in tipping, regardless of the service they receive. I have no trouble with that. I have received some extremely good tips from clients and I have not gotten anything from clients, the level of service I give is always the same and is not based on any expectation of a tip. In fact when a client does tip me, I do not look at how much they gave me until after they have left, it does not matter. I am satisfied with whatever they give me but it is more important if I am satisfied with the job I did.

I feel that the whole tipping concept is or has gotten out of control and is becoming more detrimental than helpful in keeping hunting a viable activity.

I have skip read this thread and am amazed at the people who have such a problem with tipping. My suggestion is that if you don't have the cojones to figure out who and what you should tip, then you should stay at home. It ain't frigging rocket science.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Just an observation, and this concerns hunting with guides in America. Over the years since I started guiding, I have noticed a few things concerning the subject of tips/tipping.

One, while it seems from some of the responses here that Americans are the guilty party when the whole concept of tipping arises, from experience and conversations with other guides, Americans seem to be a lot more generous in their tipping practices when in Africa than when here at home.

Two, I have discouraged a few young guys from getting into guiding because in conversations with them their main reason for wanting to guide was because of the huge tips they would be getting. If someone is going to be a guide and their best reason for doing so is the prospect of huge tips, they need to find another line of work.

Three, from experience, not all Americans believe in tipping, regardless of the service they receive. I have no trouble with that. I have received some extremely good tips from clients and I have not gotten anything from clients, the level of service I give is always the same and is not based on any expectation of a tip. In fact when a client does tip me, I do not look at how much they gave me until after they have left, it does not matter. I am satisfied with whatever they give me but it is more important if I am satisfied with the job I did.

I feel that the whole tipping concept is or has gotten out of control and is becoming more detrimental than helpful in keeping hunting a viable activity.

Well said Randall!

CHC, you got it on the spot. I don't have a problem with tipping to the point, but it is a bit out of hand when it comes to expectations.
When I was guiding in my young days, if I got tip, hey it was beer money or dinner with girlfriend, if I didn't I never thought about it despite getting up at 3 am , saddling horses, making bfast and waking up hunters.
Going to bed 10-11 pm after taking care of hunters and horses again.
I did it because I loved it. And yes, it was the only job I had and only way of making living for few years.
I firmly believe, safari industry provides more then average paying jobs in Africa in rural areas and tips should be looked at as bonus pay ( dinner, cow, goat, bicycle, new clothes for kids etc. )
If you can't make living without tips, you are in wrong business, period.

quote:

One, while it seems from some of the responses here that Americans are the guilty party when the whole concept of tipping arises, from experience and conversations with other guides, Americans seem to be a lot more generous in their tipping practices when in Africa than when here at home.

.

Interestingly, a zero seems to get lost when Americans tip in Canada. There's a whole lot of $100 a week tippers out there. More than not, according to my guiding friends.

Its also interesting to watch when PHs tip porters, truck watchers, waitresses etc when in town and travelling.

I got two $10,000 tip messages.

One for a 21 day African safari, and one for a hunt in North America.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I have skip read this thread and am amazed at the people who have such a problem with tipping. My suggestion is that if you don't have the cojones to figure out who and what you should tip, then you should stay at home. It ain't frigging rocket science.

+1, starting to sound more like whining now. Never have I heard so many folks gripe and complain about something that is a completely discretionary act!

Probably, because it became non discretionary
That is why it is an issue

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Probably, because it became non discretionary
That is why it is an issue

No, it is and always has been discretionary, and properly based on performance.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Probably, because it became non discretionary
That is why it is an issue

Declaring it to be non-discretionary, does not change the fact that it is in practice and reality discretionary. Fact is that some people really do wear big boy pants and are perfectly comfortable not leaving a tip or leaving a lean tip. If someone believes that tipping is non-discretionary, the issue, as someone pointed out earlier, is with them, not the concept of tipping.

My personal beliefs on tipping aside - there is another issue for me: the tips are given (or not for some) BEFORE the safari is 100% over -> the trophies need to get done properly.

And, in my personal experience, you definitely get the feeling from the outfitter / manager / and sometimes staff, that if the tip is not to their liking, you're either not getting your trophies, or getting someone else's (smaller), or they're going to drag this out. I agree 1000% that this should be part of the up-front due-diligence a hunter undertakes, but early in my hunting career, I just don't have the sense to cover this. + some outfitters are not so scrupulous, and may change the goal-posts at the end of the trip.

Its very hard to stick to your principles if you have ivoires waiting on someone from the Outfitter to handle them & the paperwork for you, and asking for a "good tip".

My choice today is to hunt with people I know and trust - that way no issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Orvar:
My personal beliefs on tipping aside - there is another issue for me: the tips are given (or not for some) BEFORE the safari is 100% over -> the trophies need to get done properly.

And, in my personal experience, you definitely get the feeling from the outfitter / manager / and sometimes staff, that if the tip is not to their liking, you're either not getting your trophies, or getting someone else's (smaller), or they're going to drag this out. I agree 1000% that this should be part of the up-front due-diligence a hunter undertakes, but early in my hunting career, I just don't have the sense to cover this. + some outfitters are not so scrupulous, and may change the goal-posts at the end of the trip.

Its very hard to stick to your principles if you have ivoires waiting on someone from the Outfitter to handle them & the paperwork for you, and asking for a "good tip".

My choice today is to hunt with people I know and trust - that way no issues.

Again, as pointed out earlier, if you are worried about tipping to prevent your trophies from being held hostage, the problem is not with tipping but who you booked your hunt with in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Probably, because it became non discretionary
That is why it is an issue

Declaring it to be non-discretionary, does not change the fact that it is in practice and reality discretionary. Fact is that some people really do wear big boy pants and are perfectly comfortable not leaving a tip or leaving a lean tip. If someone believes that tipping is non-discretionary, the issue, as someone pointed out earlier, is with them, not the concept of tipping.

But as stated earlier...if you can't afford to tip stay home. That makes it non discretionary...and elitist.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Probably, because it became non discretionary
That is why it is an issue

Declaring it to be non-discretionary, does not change the fact that it is in practice and reality discretionary. Fact is that some people really do wear big boy pants and are perfectly comfortable not leaving a tip or leaving a lean tip. If someone believes that tipping is non-discretionary, the issue, as someone pointed out earlier, is with them, not the concept of tipping.

But as stated earlier...if you can't afford to tip stay home. That makes it non discretionary...and elitist.

That was one person's opinion and does not happen to be mine. I agree with those that suggested that the outfitter would rather have you come and not tip than not come at all. I do find it ironic though that folks will bitch and moan over a couple of grand in tips when they are spending tens of thousands on a hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Probably, because it became non discretionary
That is why it is an issue

Declaring it to be non-discretionary, does not change the fact that it is in practice and reality discretionary. Fact is that some people really do wear big boy pants and are perfectly comfortable not leaving a tip or leaving a lean tip. If someone believes that tipping is non-discretionary, the issue, as someone pointed out earlier, is with them, not the concept of tipping.

But as stated earlier...if you can't afford to tip stay home. That makes it non discretionary...and elitist.

Scale down your hunt so that you can tip as appropriate, based on performance.

Not everyone can drive a Bentley, eh?

quote:

Probably, because it became non discretionary That is why it is an issue

My goodness, this has become quite an issue. I do think the outfitters & staff have come to expect gratuities. When this became the normal practice, it soon morphed into "how much more can we get from the clients". So now we see tipping guides in the outfitters websites and information.

Well, I believe the practice has become so twisted that I'll decline to participate in this in the future. I will let the outfitter know up front that I won't tip and if they have a problem, too f*****g bad. They can refuse to book me if they want and I'll go to some other outfitter.

Someone on this thread posted something about the client having the ability to demand refunds for poor service, etc. It seems fair if the outfitter/staff can expect or demand tips, the client should be able to get a refund for various transgressions from the staff/outfitter.

I'm sure that a number of outfitters will read this and react with righteous indignation, because after all, they would never do something so crappy as pressuring a client to tip more and in some cases, it may actually be true. Unfortunately, there are way too many instances of outfitters having poor or non-existent ethics with the client getting hosed in the process.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Probably, because it became non discretionary
That is why it is an issue

Declaring it to be non-discretionary, does not change the fact that it is in practice and reality discretionary. Fact is that some people really do wear big boy pants and are perfectly comfortable not leaving a tip or leaving a lean tip. If someone believes that tipping is non-discretionary, the issue, as someone pointed out earlier, is with them, not the concept of tipping.

But as stated earlier...if you can't afford to tip stay home. That makes it non discretionary...and elitist.

Scale down your hunt so that you can tip as appropriate, based on performance.

Not everyone can drive a Bentley, eh?

Said in 14 words that took me nearly two hundred.

quote:

Originally posted by wrenchmaster:

quote:

Probably, because it became non discretionary That is why it is an issue

My goodness, this has become quite an issue. I do think the outfitters & staff have come to expect gratuities. When this became the normal practice, it soon morphed into "how much more can we get from the clients". So now we see tipping guides in the outfitters websites and information.

Well, I believe the practice has become so twisted that I'll decline to participate in this in the future. I will let the outfitter know up front that I won't tip and if they have a problem, too f*****g bad. They can refuse to book me if they want and I'll go to some other outfitter.

Someone on this thread posted something about the client having the ability to demand refunds for poor service, etc. It seems fair if the outfitter/staff can expect or demand tips, the client should be able to get a refund for various transgressions from the staff/outfitter.

I'm sure that a number of outfitters will read this and react with righteous indignation, because after all, they would never do something so crappy as pressuring a client to tip more and in some cases, it may actually be true. Unfortunately, there are way too many instances of outfitters having poor or non-existent ethics with the client getting hosed in the process.

Sounds like:

A. You are a skin flint looking for an excuse.

B. You need to better research your outfitters and PH's.

JPK

Agreed Mike. But the learning curve is steep for some.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Probably, because it became non discretionary
That is why it is an issue

Declaring it to be non-discretionary, does not change the fact that it is in practice and reality discretionary. Fact is that some people really do wear big boy pants and are perfectly comfortable not leaving a tip or leaving a lean tip. If someone believes that tipping is non-discretionary, the issue, as someone pointed out earlier, is with them, not the concept of tipping.

But as stated earlier...if you can't afford to tip stay home. That makes it non discretionary...and elitist.

That was said by myself. Are you suggesting that everyone is entitled to a safari? You should be able to go, regardless the cost?

If you cannot afford 100 percent of the total cost of the experience, as JPK said, scale it back to what you can afford or simply don't do it.

Steve

You come from a socioeconomic environment that is in-built with tipping. Your legal minimum wage is NOT a living wage.

When you talk around a camp fire on safari, you may have other hunters who come from societies which pay a minimum LIVING wage and therefore they do not have a tipping culture.

The way you speak and the comments and judgements you make around that camp fire will reflect your character and your civic sense.

It makes no sense at all to expect everyone else to adhere to your unique socioeconomic value base. Hence my comment about this being an International forum.

And you need to check Buzz's post about a client who hunts elephants regularly with him but does not tip. He gets great service all the time!

I take a bet that that client also has excellent manners around the camp fire!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
When I am in camp later this year I hope I do not share it with someone who makes comments like "you should stay home...".

I honestly believe that the outfitter would be offended as much me!

I believe that any discussion here on AR should be like around a camp fire.

It is a pity that some people forget their manners in an international forum.

Naki,

You feel it's appropriate to go on a safari that you can afford everything but gratuities? Imagine telling the PH and staff at the end when they line up for tips, Sorry gent's, I over-extended myself a bit. I've got nothing left for tips!!

I'm sure they would love to have you back the following season.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Probably, because it became non discretionary
That is why it is an issue

Declaring it to be non-discretionary, does not change the fact that it is in practice and reality discretionary. Fact is that some people really do wear big boy pants and are perfectly comfortable not leaving a tip or leaving a lean tip. If someone believes that tipping is non-discretionary, the issue, as someone pointed out earlier, is with them, not the concept of tipping.

But as stated earlier...if you can't afford to tip stay home. That makes it non discretionary...and elitist.

That was said by myself. Are you suggesting that everyone is entitled to a safari? You should be able to go, regardless the cost?

If you cannot afford 100 percent of the total cost of the experience, as JPK said, scale it back to what you can afford or simply don't do it.

100% of the cost of the experience for whom? the client or the outfitter? remember tipping is discretionary. By the time the client arrives in camp most outfitters would have the entire cost of the hunt in hand except the discretionary funds, read tip. So you're saying the African outfitters would rather have Americans who don't tip, Europeans and Aussies and Kiwis who are not used to tipping stay home and lose out on a 10k guaranteed payday because they are not going to get a possible 1k in tip for their employees? Makes lots of economic sense in this era of discretionary funding, shall we say scarcity?

Naki

Hate to break a bubble. But majority of the hunters are American and the other ones most likely follow american rules on tipping. Non tipping will be the exception. Especially in american centric markets like zim.

Also expect most american hunters to be right of center but very polite. Exception is that guy biebs - whole time in camp he was talking about the low carbon footprint of his blaser rifle.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Steve

You come from a socioeconomic environment that is in-built with tipping. Your legal minimum wage is NOT a living wage.

When you talk around a camp fire on safari, you may have other hunters who come from societies which pay a minimum LIVING wage and therefore they do not have a tipping culture.

The way you speak and the comments and judgements you make around that camp fire will reflect your character and your civic sense.

It makes no sense at all to expect everyone else to adhere to your unique socioeconomic value base. Hence my comment about this being an International forum.

And you need to check Buzz's post about a client who hunts elephants regularly with him but does not tip. He gets great service all the time!

I take a bet that that client also has excellent manners around the camp fire!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
When I am in camp later this year I hope I do not share it with someone who makes comments like "you should stay home...".

I honestly believe that the outfitter would be offended as much me!

I believe that any discussion here on AR should be like around a camp fire.

It is a pity that some people forget their manners in an international forum.

Naki,

You feel it's appropriate to go on a safari that you can afford everything but gratuities? Imagine telling the PH and staff at the end when they line up for tips, Sorry gent's, I over-extended myself a bit. I've got nothing left for tips!!

I'm sure they would love to have you back the following season.

Steve

quote:

You come from a socioeconomic environment that is in-built with tipping. Your legal minimum wage is NOT a living wage.

When you talk around a camp fire on safari, you may have other hunters who come from societies which pay a minimum LIVING wage and therefore they do not have a tipping culture.

Nakihunter:

One needs to remember that "legal minimum wages" are determined by government institutions and not private individuals and these values vary between one society and another.

If you have a problem with these minimum wages are insufficient to live on you should maybe approach those African governments and tell them their socialist ideals are worse than capitalism.

You really ought to go visit your country of origin where minimum wages and child labour are the order of the day and preach your socialist ideals.

Also remember that the entire workforce in a hunting camp (TZ) is being catered for free of charge for the duration of the season; this would include accommodation, food and medical so the minimum wage being earned is nett of any expense.

Whatever is made extra from gratuities is a bonus - period.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Steve

You come from a socioeconomic environment that is in-built with tipping. Your legal minimum wage is NOT a living wage.

When you talk around a camp fire on safari, you may have other hunters who come from societies which pay a minimum LIVING wage and therefore they do not have a tipping culture.

The way you speak and the comments and judgements you make around that camp fire will reflect your character and your civic sense.

It makes no sense at all to expect everyone else to adhere to your unique socioeconomic value base. Hence my comment about this being an International forum.

And you need to check Buzz's post about a client who hunts elephants regularly with him but does not tip. He gets great service all the time!

I take a bet that that client also has excellent manners around the camp fire!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
When I am in camp later this year I hope I do not share it with someone who makes comments like "you should stay home...".

I honestly believe that the outfitter would be offended as much me!

I believe that any discussion here on AR should be like around a camp fire.

It is a pity that some people forget their manners in an international forum.

Naki,

You feel it's appropriate to go on a safari that you can afford everything but gratuities? Imagine telling the PH and staff at the end when they line up for tips, Sorry gent's, I over-extended myself a bit. I've got nothing left for tips!!

I'm sure they would love to have you back the following season.

Steve

Naki,

There are but a few things in life that are a certainty. In my life there are two for sure.

One, I will never participate in a safari in which tipping doesn't come into play.

Two, you and I will never share a camp.

You have been on what now? ZERO safaris? I myself somewhere around 33-34, I've forgotten. I understand the culture of a safari, the expectations of safari. More importantly, I have a solid understanding of the Tradition of safari. I didn't make the culture one of gratuities, but if I want to play by the accepted rules, TIP.

Is the system screwed? probably, but I didn't screw it. I simply am stating facts. If you don't like them, fine. But they are the facts.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Probably, because it became non discretionary
That is why it is an issue

Declaring it to be non-discretionary, does not change the fact that it is in practice and reality discretionary. Fact is that some people really do wear big boy pants and are perfectly comfortable not leaving a tip or leaving a lean tip. If someone believes that tipping is non-discretionary, the issue, as someone pointed out earlier, is with them, not the concept of tipping.

But as stated earlier...if you can't afford to tip stay home. That makes it non discretionary...and elitist.

That was said by myself. Are you suggesting that everyone is entitled to a safari? You should be able to go, regardless the cost?

If you cannot afford 100 percent of the total cost of the experience, as JPK said, scale it back to what you can afford or simply don't do it.

100% of the cost of the experience for whom? the client or the outfitter? remember tipping is discretionary. By the time the client arrives in camp most outfitters would have the entire cost of the hunt in hand except the discretionary funds, read tip. So you're saying the African outfitters would rather have Americans who don't tip, Europeans and Aussies and Kiwis who are not used to tipping stay home and lose out on a 10k guaranteed payday because they are not going to get a possible 1k in tip for their employees? Makes lots of economic sense in this era of discretionary funding, shall we say scarcity?

100 percent of what a safari will remove from your pocket. A tip is included in that amount. Whether Africa, Europe, N/A, a tip is an integral part of the cash outflow required to hunt internationally.

TIPS. A subject that seems to be disliked by the majority of both hunters and those who do conduct the hunt.

The Hunt Report made a survey a few years ago, and came up with a rather large variations in what people actually tip.

Rather than compile a list of what is being paid, and what is being expected, I thought I will post all relevant comments that I have received from our members.

I have edited the comments so as to remove the name of the person.

Practically everyone seems to agree that the owner, even if he acts as the PH, should not be given a tip.

Others seem to think it really is immaterial if the PH conducting the hunt is the owner or not, he still should be given a tip.

Some outfits seem to make it a REQUIREMNT that a tip is expected, and part of the deal, with relevant recommendations on how much to be paid.
Some seasoned hunters, seem to have had an atrocious hunt with some of the big name safari operators, who got upset at the size of the tip. In one particular case, if it was me I would have refused to pay whatever I owed to that outfit, and would have blown the whistle that shoddy hunt.

In some countries, apparently one has to have government approval to be able to exchange foreign currency to local currency. So giving the camp staff foreign currency can actually get those members of the staff into hot water. I am sure they find a way around it, but I just thought I will mention it as those who have kindly informed me of this feel it should be known.

Many members seem to think this has gotten out of hand. Some went as far as to suggest that outfitters and PHs have got to the stage were they expect the client to pay for their staff by providing the tip.

Some have questioned the large amount of tip given to the PH conducting the hunt, taking into consideration what he gets paid for his work as a daily wage. A normal amount that equates to 10-15% of his daily pay would have amounted to $10-$15 for someone who is getting a $100 dollars, to $20-$60 per day to those at the high end of the pay scale of $200-$300 per day.

A couple of members raised the point that it might be better to just have an added percentage to the bill, like the "service" charge hotels and restaurants tend to do.
Personally, I don't like this idea at all. It just adds to the cost of the safari right across the board, and members of the staff will still expect an additional tip.

I have had occasions where I have refused to pay the 15% "service" charge some restaurants have added to my bill, as the service was terrible.

Of all the answers I have received, only 3 members have pointed out that they have had a bad hunt, and were still expected to pay a tip.
Some outfitters and PH have stated that they prefer to have the tips given to them, and they distribute them to the staff at the end of the hunting season, rather than have the client give it to the staff.

A major point of this was that some clients do give direct to the staff, without the knowledge of the PH, and the clients tend to pay certain members of the staff that they come in contact with. And they tend to not leave any tip for those who are just as responsible for the success of the hunt, but are invisible to the client.

Some members of the staff tend to expect the same tip as they have gotten from the largest tippers, from everyone. And when a client leaves a lesser tip, they tend to accuse their boss of short changing them.

Some clients, notably from Europe, tend to leave relatively small tips, and in some occasions, none at all.

I find this rather sad, but understandable, due to their culture.

I will related a story of what happened to us in the northern part of Sweden, while we were hiking up in the mountains there last summer.
It is quite an eye opener, as those who travel a lot will see.

We booked 3 rooms at a ski resort that is being used by hikers in the summer.
At the booking, they took my name and phone number. That is it. They never asked for a credit card to confirm the booking.

When we arrived, I got my credit card and handed it to the man at the reception. He gave it back to me, without using it, saying "I will take that when you leave"
Breakfast was part of the deal, while other meals have to be paid for. We had lunch out, but dinner was always in the hotel.

They had fixed meal choices, about 3 or 4 to choose from.

We had kids, who asked for something else, and they gladly prepared those meals for them.
We just signed for everything, to be paid at the end of our stay.

When we came to leave, we wanted to leave a tip for the staff who have been serving us. The manager was trying his best to persuade us not to leave anything, as everything was included in the bill!

But, as the staff were extremely helpful, we did leave a tip, and the manager was all over himself with gratitude.

===========================

Following are a selection from some of the answers I received.

1. In 2008 we tipped the PH $100/day, plus a couple of gifts, on a 10-day buffalo hunt.
In 2011 we tipped the PH $150/day/client (total of $3000) for an outstanding job on a 2x1 buffalo hunt.
In 2013 we tipped the PH $150/day/client ($3000) plus some ammo for another outstanding 2x1 10-day buffalo hunt.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Africa hunts I have always tipped $100/$120 per day to the staff as a whole and then if the PH truly went out of his way and did an excellent job in producing the goods, I will tip $1500 for a 10 day Safari and up to $3000 for a 21 day Safari

my only bad experience in Tipping was my last Masaai hunt when I was forced into paying the scout over $1000 for sitting in the car for 7 days,

For my next safari I have budgetted $3000 for all tips. This equates to 5% of the value of the safari
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
3. I made the mistake of letting the PH set the tipping "guide" last hunt. He "expected" 150 US per day as the PH and then proceeded to tell me how much to tip every single person in camp. Tips are getting expensive.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. My average Big game hunt runs around $25 000 per hunter Total on the low end to about $ 75 000 + on the high end.

Hunters spend around $ 1 500 on tips on the low end and about $ 4 000 on the very high end of the tipping spectrum. This includes everyone including the PH. Interesting enough it is not necessarily true that the more expensive hunts tip more , neither is it expected.

If hunters ask me , I give them a list of workers involved and give them the pecking order of the people , From head tracker and cook to cleaners. What ever amount they want to spend on tipping the staff , I then divide for them into all the workers and have them pay these people in person , whom I call one by one to the Boma. If change is needed , I obviously help with that also. If they want to send money afterwards for the workers , I insist that we take my money from the safe , he pays the workers their tips in person and he pays me back. The list gets torn up afterwards and ends up in the fire. Done. Never had a complaint from worker or client , no matter the size of the tips. A good outfit educates his staff to understand that not every hunter will tip huge. This may not deter them from giving their best on every Safari.

Hunt durations vary from 10 to 21 day hunts. The longer hunts do tip more.
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5. The whole tip thing has gotten out of control both for staff and for PH's in my opinion.

I just want to know ahead of time exactly what my total bill is and when it will be due. Then I prepare appropriately. The first time I went...I was caught off guard and it was almost embarrassing. Fortunately...we scraped the bottom of the barrel of our travel money and did what did what unbeknowing to us what was actually "expected" which for me makes it not a tip.

A tip to me is a gesture of pleasure and should be something that is completely unexpected that is done as a token of gratitude.

The Safari companies just have exploited this as a means to pay staff.

Now...in the economic downturn...many companies that attract wealthy clients have cut-back the PH compensation telling the PH's they need to be extra-sure to please the client because they need those tips to actually live on.

On the other hand...all staff and PH's can find other work if they don't like the system.

My main concern is that companies clearly tell clients when booking that the tip is part of they pay of the employees and to be ready to pay unless they want to feel embarrassed.

It is mainly to help the first timer...the experienced know the drill.

I think this is a worthy effort!
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6. On our African (2010) our tips were broken down as so:
PH: $100/day. We had both Owners/PH with us every day so we split the $100/day to $50/day.
Trackers: $10/day.
Camp Staff (Chef, Manger, House Staff, etc.): $30/day.

Montana (2009) trip was 12% per day for guide. Roughly $20/day for camp staff.

(2014) to RSA. We asked about tips and was told it's a combined pool for all (PH, Trackers, Staff, etc.). The average they gave us was $50 to $500 per day.
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7. Reference tips, always a difficult one on an open forum. What I do not agree with is that often clients request the owner to be the PH for whatever reasons, the owner deserves a tip for hard work as much as a freelance hunter or permanent PH.
I believe there should be no standard tip, it is for hard work and not all clients have the same disposable income so a certain $ amount should not be expected.
there are always guidelines but these should be used as a reference NOT a given

It should also be noted that certain countries believe in tipping others do not, for example, a tip from a French or Australian client is a bonus, whilst one from an American and Russian client is almost a given.
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8. The camps generally have six or seven staff and then of course you will have two trackers, a driver and a game scout on your hunting vehicle.

Camp Staff +/- USD per hunting day
Manager 20
Cook 15
Waiter 1 10
Waiter 2 10
General Hand 10
Skinner 15
Assistant skinner 10


Hunting Vehicle +/- USD per hunting day
Professional Hunter 100
Cameraman 30
Tracker 1 20
Tracker 2 20
Driver 20
Game Scout 15
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9. On the topic of tips. I like to be in control of as much of the safari as I can. After all I'm paying the bills. I want to be in control of the tips and I personally base my tips on several facets. When I am conformed by a suggested tip list, or when a PH tells me his expected tip early in the safari it is a big turn off for me. When this happens I don't feel like a client on safari but like an ATM machine and this is another way to extract money out of me.
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10. The 2012 trip was a 10 day two buffalo trip in Masailand. I think I tipped the PH $3,500 and I tipped the staff something between $2,500 and $3,000. Whatever it was, it was 10-15% above what was recommended.

Last year, was a 14 day (on a 21 day license) leopard/buffalo hunt in Western Tanzania. We took leopard, elephant, buffalo X2, sable, and assorted plains game. The elephant was a bonus. If I recall, my tip to the staff was around $4,500, $5,000 to the PH and $800 to an appy I hadn't planned on.

In 2008 my tip was approximately 10-15% more than was recommended.
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11. Tanzania for 21 days in 2012, tip sheet expectations were over 6,000.... I left 5900 and felt somewhat overcharged, I did have a great safari with a lion,leopard and 2 buffalo, but already had paid 65,000. Went to Zim in 2013 on a successful 16 day elephant hunt, I asked the PH on day 14 what was expected, he refused to answer but finally said $750 would be fine anything above that would be considered above board, I believe I left about 2,000.
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12. I believe tipping should be entirely voluntary on the consumer's part. Unfortunately, the practice has morphed into an expectation, and with ever increasing rates. I have posted before my experience with a sorry excuse for a PH who gave me and my hunting partner amounts he wanted. I was so sick of the guy, I just paid it to get him out of my sight. That will not happen again. In the future, I will be very clear with any PH on what I will do as far as tipping is concerned. If any type of pressure is applied, I will withdraw my offer, no excuses or exceptions. I'm tired of being pushed into doing things I don't necessarily agree with by these African outfitters. Not that this practice is soley practiced by them, but they have been getting away with it for some time and are quite good at it.
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13. I normally ask the PH/Outfitter what is a range for the camp staff, trackers, skinners, game scout. Depending on quality of service I go with the high or low he recommends. This is usually $10-15 per day for trackers, skinners down to 5-8 per day for camp staff. If a tracker does an amazing job of finding a wounded animal or following a very difficult spoor to get an animal I will give a bonus.

Regarding the ph normally around 10% of daily rates but I have tipped as low as 5% and as high as 20%.
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14. For me, if that tip is a 12 pack of beer or money, regardless of the amount, it simply means the clients appreciated the job I did for them.

While I appreciate a tip, what is more important to me is if I know that I did the best job possible for the client.
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15. The below table is a comparison of Martin Pieters, Buzz Charlton & Shakari Robinson's websites & their suggestions.

7 day Buffalo hunt A B C
Professional Hunter $500.00 $700.00 $500.00
Trackers (2) $150.00 $280.00 $140.00
Driver $75.00 $140.00 $75.00
Camp manager $80.00 $140.00 $75.00
Skinner $75.00 $105.00 $75.00
Cook $50.00 $105.00 $40.00
Servers (2) $50.00 $140.00 $80.00
Maids (2) $50.00 $140.00 $80.00
Laundress $30.00 $70.00 $40.00

TOTAL $1,060.00 $1,820.00 $1,105.00

This is for a 7 day Buffalo / PG safari

I had to make some adjustments in order to make the comparison valid.
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16. As a general rule of thumb, for any hunt where the cost is divided between daily rate and trophy fees, I tip around 20% of the total daily rate, spread out amongst everyone (but the PH gets the majority of it).

If it's a fixed price, then I'll typically tip about 10% of the total cost.

It also makes a difference to me if the PH/Guide is also the owner, or if they're an employee or freelancer. If it's the owner, I don't feel it's necessary to tip as much, as they get all of the money. But, if it's a PH getting $150/day to laugh at my jokes and keep me alive 18 hours a day, then they'll usually get more.
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17. I tend to follow any camp requests as far as the tipping of the camp staff, but if left to my own devices the camp tip is usually equal to the PH tip on DG hunts. I also try and bring a practical item for each of the guys on the truck, but stopped doing that when I discovered that most of what I was giving (pocket knives) were illegal in Zim.

The PH on a PG hunt will get about 10% of the total daily rates, adjusted up if I felt they did exceptionally well. The only one of these I went on, the guy got $400 in 2013.

DG hunts when I started I was told $100/day was the "Normal" tip. Since then this has been adjusted up to $150, again bettered or worsened based on the service.

In 2007 $125/ day plus about $500 of medical supplies. (stuff I brought with in case I needed it, but didn't need and just gave to them.)

In 2008 $125/day plus maybe $250 of medical supplies.

2009 $150/day plus $500 of stuff that the PH asked for (it was in Zim and they were having trouble finding anything. This one kind of annoyed me, with all the requests.)

2011 $250/day Excellent performance.

2012 $200/day plus $200 worth of stuff.

2013 $200/day plus $300 worth of items.

Camp staff-

I had been told by all outfitters in Zim that I had to be careful of giving the camp staff too much or they tended to go on a bender and lose their jobs. Except in 2012, I always handed the cash directly to the person involved.

2007 Total camp staff (the owner was there and making sure I didn't overtip.. $700 plus maybe 10# of hard candy divided up. Hats and gloves for the guys on the truck. (Zim)

2008 Total camp staff $2500 plus $250 of excess booze. Amazingly, the staff were much more appreciative of the 5 bottles of spirits than the money. (Zambia)

2009 $1000 plus $500 worth of knives and optics. (Zim)

2011 $4000. I felt that I had to be a bit more generous (the staff were excellent) because the other hunter in camp had left only $500 because he was cheap and a perfectionist.

2012 $3500. This was a case where I was told to write how much was given to each person and give the total cash (handed to the camp manager in front of everyone) so that it was not stolen. (tanz)

2013 $2500 (Zim)
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18. A tip is something you give in some special situation and then it is maybe 1-2% of the value. Several friends have been in embarasing situations when they have been to safaris. They plan to give the tip of a lifetime (100-300$ In total to the people involved) and expect the staff to be happy and the staff reacts with disgust.
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19. DG safari
Head tracker $180
2nd tracker $160
Game scout(worked very hard helping us & was a pleasure to be around) $100
Camp staff(12) $450 combined.
Camp manager $200.
PH $1000.
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20. In Namibia I gave the PH $1,500 it was my first Safari and now I know I WAY over tipped. I tipped both trackers $300. The hunt was 7 days.

In Zambia I tipped the PH $1,500 and also tipped the "camp" $1,500, which was his suggestion after I asked. They had a hierarchy set up to distribute that amount. I gave the tracker an extra $200 and the Game scout $100.

On another very successful safari the tip was $3,500 and I tipped the tracker and Game scout separately and the Camp got $1,500 to share.
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21. PH TIPS:

A good baseline for the PH tip is 10% of the total daily rate. A client can go up or down from there, depending on the experience and whether they are really stretching themselves personally.

If it's a terrible hunt and it's the PH's fault , then the PH shouldn't get a good tip.

If it's a terrible hunt but it's not the PH's fault (for example, when the PH is freelancing in an area that's not his), then the right thing to do is give the PH a tip that recognizes the PH's hard work.

People who don't tip out of some kind of claimed protest against the concept of tipping are just cheapskates who are trying to justify it to themselves.

People who don't tip because it's not in their culture to do so are called Europeans. But this rule is not universal, as some Europeans tip quite well. Still, PHs are much less likely to deem a European a jerk for not tipping.

Americans who don't tip are simply jerks (and I'm an American). They are defying their own culture and taking money out of the pockets of guys who typically only make between $40,000 and $60,000 per season and depend on tips as part of their income.

All of that said, I would rather work for a nice person who doesn't tip than a jerk who does.

Gifts of things like binos should be given in addition to cash tips, not as substitutes. A guy can't feed his family with a fancy set of binos, and most PHs already have a pair of binos they like, anyway. Furthermore, clients often take kind words from a PH about their equipment to mean that the PH actually would like to have it--which is very often not the case.

APPY TIPS:

If there's an appy, and he works hard to make your trip better (trust me, he's doing some of the hardest work without complaint), anything that you give him will be appreciated. Even a few hundred dollars can make a real difference to most appies, who are often working for no pay. Many clients never gave me a penny--even the ones for whom I performed the most work. In some cases, it was a bit frustrating. On the other hand, clients don't expect to see an appy when they come on a hunt, and they may not have budgeted for one. My smallest tip ever as an appy was zero dollars, and my largest was $1,500 on a 17 day leopard hunt. Most commonly, if I got a tip at all, it was $400 to $500 on a 14-21 day safari.


STAFF TIPS:

Before you go, ask the outfitter what is standard. Be prepared to pay that. Count on the PH to divide the tip among the staff, but feel free to ask to see how it's to be divided. If the staff do a terrible job, or if one person does a particularly bad job, let the PH know, and he'll take care of it. Clients need to recognize up front that many of the people who work hard to make their experience positive are never seen by them. That's why it can be a real mess when a client decides who to tip among the staff, and how much. Just as with the PH, if you want to give something as a gift to anyone on the staff, that's fine, but don't let it be any kind of substitute for cash.
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22. Saeed, Per you request, here is what I normally do on African trips; $100 per day for however many days I'm hunting; 14 days=$1400. That amount is split however they choose.
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23. I firmly believe in tipping FOR SERVICE ABOVE AND BEYOND THE NORMAL OR EXPECTED.

My hunts (exclusive of air fare and travel incidentals) ranged from $6,000.00 to $9,000.00.

Following is the range of tips:

PH (who is owner/outfitter) $300.00 - $500.00

Asst. PH $100.00

Lead Tracker $100.00

1 cook $50.00

2 Housekeepers $50.00 each

3 Skinners $20.00 each (I have never had any trophies processed)
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24. Few times I have been to Africa, I was told by agent $ 100 to trackers, $ 500 skinner, cooks, maid...
PH $ 1000 or so. Every time it turned out lot more especially from PH ( their subtle suggestion $ 200 a day )
I paid, but I didn't like it especially they were company owners and to me they shouldn't accept tips period, because they are the owners.
Another thing I don't like is, lot of PH's figure tips as wages for lot of their employees.
What about all the money we pay? Shouldn't that cover wages for everyone ...?
I have to agree with lots of guys on AR, that it is getting out of hand. We already pay King's ransom for the hunts as it is.
Thanks for doing it this way, on the forum if you even question the topic of tips you get hammered and most PH's and agents stayed silent, which tells me that tipping is crooked business.
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25. My trip to Namibia had a cost of 5100 dollars combined daily fees, excursions and trophy fees, seven days of hunting, two of excursions. Trophy fees were about half of the total. My PH was the property owner. We hunted at two ranches in two different parts of the country. People at both locations helped with the skinning, driving, and housekeeping. We had no tracker other than my PH. I tipped $400 which he kept 150 dollars and divided the remainder among all the staff on both farms. His explanation was that all of the staff helped make the hunt successful, not just the faces that I met. Some of the folks had to do other's work while we were hunting, and it wasn't fair to them if the tips weren't shared.
Recently, I have been discussing a hunt with an operation in SA. We worked out what I thought was a fair price. Then he advised me that he expected me to pay a tip of 70% of the daily fee per day for the PH, tracker and cook, other staff tips were at my discretion. We were talking about a daily rate of 200 and a mandatory tip of 140 per day. That ended the conversation.
It has left a very sour taste in my mouth. It just seems that tipping is no longer tipping as a token of appreciation. It seems to have developed into a way to price point market, then start the add on fees. When combined with airport pickup fees, extra fees for services, fees to pick up a few souvenirs, packing and drop off fees for trophies, dip and pack fees, and they just go on and on. The add on fees on this hunt would have tripled the total cost of the hunt.
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26. Thank you for taking the time to further elaborate on this topic. It truly is a frustrating subject.
I do believe that the whole tipping business has gotten out of hand. I strongly wish that a hunt would be priced at whatever the outfitter felt they could sell it for and that is that. I believe in a free economy and the outfitter should be allowed to make as much money as they can. Who am I to wish them any other way? However, placing the financial burden on me of paying the wages of all the camp staff in addition to the hunt price is simply unreasonable.
Tipping should be for something over-and-above the standard practice of a hunt. PHs, trackers, skinners, camp staff etc all have a job to do. They should be paid for that job accordingly. If some event occurs that would call for something over and above the job description then a tip would be in order. For instance, if a hunter has specific dietary restrictions and the camp cook creates wonderful meals following all the clients requests, that is above and beyond his standard job description.
Another example, on my first trip to Africa I wounded an animal. After tracking for a couple of hours my PH grew tired of the situation and wanted to move on. The tracker felt like he could find it and expressed so. I asked that we leave the tracker on site and let him continue as he felt strongly that he could find it. We did and when we returned 6 hours later he had indeed recovered it. In my mind that warranted a tip and what I gave him was truly appreciated.
I have only been on 6 international hunts but the trip I took last year to New Zealand was the least stressful mentally as I had no worry about what was appropriate for tipping. My outfitter expected none and expressed so before the trip ever took place. We agreed on a mutually acceptable price and that was that. Everything clearly stated beforehand.

The safari tipping experience is the most egregious in my mind. If you stumble across a huge sable or kudu did the PH really do anything to warrant a tip? So often luck plays the biggest role in hunting success but many hunters don't see it that way. Huge tipping clients have made the average guy look like he is unappreciative, when nothing could be further from the truth.
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27. I feel like 10% of the total cost is fair. If the job is well done.
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28. I typically tip 10% of the daily rate. That amount may include the staff's tip, or I may tip them an additional amount depending on the quality of the food and service.
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29. I have been on three African hunts, one each in RSA, Namibia and Zimbabwe, all for plainsgame. In RSA the PH and owner of the hunting outfit suggested we (I went with a friend) tip the staff one lump sum which they would divide up among them according to how we saw fit. We also tipped the PH/owner. I don't remember any more how much it was but I would hazard a guess at $500 for the whole crew on a seven day hunt. That was 2002.
Namibia I tipped the PH/owner about $500 and a box of .375, as well as another $200 for the various camp staff.
Zimbabwe (Mokore outfitters) I tipped the PH-- Mokore's youngest-- $450, which was 10% of the daily fee and a couple boxes of leftover .375 ammo. The trackers (two) each got $150 and then another $150 or so divided among the rather large camp staff. Mokore was the only outfit of the three that had any guidlines as to what to tip. I adhered to those guidlines- which did not cover the PH. I felt 10% of the daily was good for him; he was very competant and I enjoyed his company. The tips for the trackers, who were also very good, were rather larger than what I expected.

I really wish that there were a more or less universally accepted custom as to tipping on a hunt.
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30. DG hunts I have tipped 15% of the day fees for the PH. As far as the camp staff I was given a rough guide for how much to tip. I was told this was a mere guideline and I could do more or less or nothing based on what I thought about the service provided. These were both 10 day hunts one for buff, the other for tuskless.

Head tracker $200
Asst Tracker $150
Game Scout $100
Camp Staff (cook, cleaning, server, skinner) $500
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I've given 100/day for dangerous game and 75 -100 day for non dangerous game.Guiding a successful Suni,big Sable,blue duiker etc hunt is perhaps more difficult than for a buff .The trackers get 200-350 each,the cook 200-300 and so on.It adds up but your generosity will make a big difference in lots of lives.We all give to charities that help others,unknown to us. This is an opportunity to thank people who have given to our most memorable adventures. Thanks,Saeed,for awakening an important topic. Jim

What strikes me most are the guys who complain that PH's or operators are passing on their labor costs and complaining about safari costs as if the removal of tipping wouldn't increase a safari's cost by the average of tips received.

Thank you for compiling the comments Saeed.

JPK

Good stuff Saeed puts into open a lot of stuff.

Gives us consumers of safaris services a good insight into an important cost of an overall very expensive pure discretionary consumption activity.

Mike

Mike

Your post shows class & respect even if the perspective is different to mine. That is the kind of camp fire debate I can relate to.

Biebs isn't too bad - he even corresponds with me occasionally!! And - no I do not own a Blazer! I am more into old odd ball rifles like my Mannlicher Schoenauers that need to go to Africa - may be next trip.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Naki

Hate to break a bubble. But majority of the hunters are American and the other ones most likely follow american rules on tipping. Non tipping will be the exception. Especially in american centric markets like zim.

Also expect most american hunters to be right of center but very polite. Exception is that guy biebs - whole time in camp he was talking about the low carbon footprint of his blaser rifle.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Steve

You come from a socioeconomic environment that is in-built with tipping. Your legal minimum wage is NOT a living wage.

When you talk around a camp fire on safari, you may have other hunters who come from societies which pay a minimum LIVING wage and therefore they do not have a tipping culture.

The way you speak and the comments and judgements you make around that camp fire will reflect your character and your civic sense.

It makes no sense at all to expect everyone else to adhere to your unique socioeconomic value base. Hence my comment about this being an International forum.

And you need to check Buzz's post about a client who hunts elephants regularly with him but does not tip. He gets great service all the time!

I take a bet that that client also has excellent manners around the camp fire!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
When I am in camp later this year I hope I do not share it with someone who makes comments like "you should stay home...".

I honestly believe that the outfitter would be offended as much me!

I believe that any discussion here on AR should be like around a camp fire.

It is a pity that some people forget their manners in an international forum.

Naki,

You feel it's appropriate to go on a safari that you can afford everything but gratuities? Imagine telling the PH and staff at the end when they line up for tips, Sorry gent's, I over-extended myself a bit. I've got nothing left for tips!!

I'm sure they would love to have you back the following season.

Steve

Thanks for compiling the information Saeed!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mike

Your post shows class & respect even if the perspective is different to mine. That is the kind of camp fire debate I can relate to.

Biebs isn't too bad - he even corresponds with me occasionally!! And - no I do not own a Blazer! I am more into old odd ball rifles like my Mannlicher Schoenauers that need to go to Africa - may be next trip.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Naki

Hate to break a bubble. But majority of the hunters are American and the other ones most likely follow american rules on tipping. Non tipping will be the exception. Especially in american centric markets like zim.

Also expect most american hunters to be right of center but very polite. Exception is that guy biebs - whole time in camp he was talking about the low carbon footprint of his blaser rifle.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Steve

You come from a socioeconomic environment that is in-built with tipping. Your legal minimum wage is NOT a living wage.

When you talk around a camp fire on safari, you may have other hunters who come from societies which pay a minimum LIVING wage and therefore they do not have a tipping culture.

The way you speak and the comments and judgements you make around that camp fire will reflect your character and your civic sense.

It makes no sense at all to expect everyone else to adhere to your unique socioeconomic value base. Hence my comment about this being an International forum.

And you need to check Buzz's post about a client who hunts elephants regularly with him but does not tip. He gets great service all the time!

I take a bet that that client also has excellent manners around the camp fire!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
When I am in camp later this year I hope I do not share it with someone who makes comments like "you should stay home...".

I honestly believe that the outfitter would be offended as much me!

I believe that any discussion here on AR should be like around a camp fire.

It is a pity that some people forget their manners in an international forum.

Naki,

You feel it's appropriate to go on a safari that you can afford everything but gratuities? Imagine telling the PH and staff at the end when they line up for tips, Sorry gent's, I over-extended myself a bit. I've got nothing left for tips!!

I'm sure they would love to have you back the following season.

Steve

What perspective could you possibly have? You have never been on safari or even set foot on African soil.

Drum Roll Please.

It is official after much debate and a secret ballot, the results have been tallied by the Illuminati.

The topics of Tips/Tipping/Gratuities while on Big Game Safaris/Hunts, regardless of game or country, has joined the lofty ranks of issues.

It has achieved this lofty plateau due to the following attributes.

I. It has shown the resilience to be resurrected on a regular basis with the added ability to be being discussed in multiple discussions during fairly small time frames.

II. It has proven itself to be a divisive topic along multiple lines i.e. game hunted/country of origin of the hunter/food service in America protocol/socio-economic status of the hunter and last but not least internet anonymity/exaggeration.

And lastly, the major qualifier to gain admittance into the family of Dead Horse Issues, it is an issue that will never gain general consensus among the masses.

The awards committee applauds the collective group of topics, Tips/Tipping/Gratuities on achieving this lofty goal.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Drum Roll Please.

It is official after much debate and a secret ballot, the results have been tallied by the Illuminati.

The topics of Tips/Tipping/Gratuities while on Big Game Safaris/Hunts, regardless of game or country, has joined the lofty ranks of issues.

It has achieved this lofty plateau due to the following attributes.

I. It has shown the resilience to be resurrected on a regular basis with the added ability to be being discussed in multiple discussions during fairly small time frames.

II. It has proven itself to be a divisive topic along multiple lines i.e. game hunted/country of origin of the hunter/food service in America protocol/socio-economic status of the hunter and last but not least internet anonymity/exaggeration.

And lastly, the major qualifier to gain admittance into the family of Dead Horse Issues, it is an issue that will never gain general consensus among the masses.

The awards committee applauds the collective group of topics, Tips/Tipping/Gratuities on achieving this lofty goal.

Que?

issues.

Hunting White Tail Deer with the .223.
Mark Sullivan.
SCI.
Peter Hathway Capstick.
Blair World Wide Hunting.
Hunting, Ethical vs. Legal.
Best all around hunting rile/caliber for _______!

Dead Horse issues in my personal opinion are any that have NO clearly defined yes or no solution, only create animosity among the proponents on each side or all sides of the issue that drag on for page after page and manage to be resurrected at fairly regular intervals that reach no definitive conclusion any and every time it is resurrected.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
issues.

Hunting White Tail Deer with the .223.
Mark Sullivan.
SCI.
Peter Hathway Capstick.
Blair World Wide Hunting.
Hunting, Ethical vs. Legal.
Best all around hunting rile/caliber for _______!

Dead Horse issues in my personal opinion are any that have NO clearly defined yes or no solution, only create animosity among the proponents on each side or all sides of the issue that drag on for page after page and manage to be resurrected at fairly regular intervals that reach no definitive conclusion any and every time it is resurrected.

OK...Randall, I've decided to NOT tip you when I come to shoot a Javelina.

Steve