quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I'll comment again and touch on a number of topics that others have addressed. First, let me start with the fact that I love Tanzania, I will continue to hunt Tanzania, and I will continue to hunt with the same outfit. Now that changes things somewhat, as others have noted.

Second, in Tanzania, people's estimates of 10 people in camp is ridiculous. Minimum of 16 and up to 20 or more is my experience. So, $100 a day "for the staff" doesn't go very far.

I've never had staff not bust their butt to make me happy, each in their way, based on their respective jobs. So I tend to tip well, based on great effort. As some have said, great effort generates great results, and that has generally been the case.

But it's not the result that generates the "tip". It's a job well-earned. I probably tip too much. I've always tipped over what was "recommended." But I've always felt the guys, and gals in one or two instances, earned it and went above and beyond, including the folks I never saw until the last day.

Plus it's always interesting when you come back and you recognize that tracker or camp staff, who you hunted with before, and remember him by name. If you tipped well the last time they seem to remember you. If you didn't, I suspect they would remember you as well.

I've always expected and received first rate service in Tanzania, but I've always hunted with a first-rate outfit. I will reward that first rate effort and performance. How many times can I do this? And, I can't take it with me.

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quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Several members said they had below par treatment right across the board.

From the minute they were picked up from the airport.

To having to deal with a PH who was apparently upset about something, throughout the hunt.

Others have mentioned that they were promised the camp to themselves. But had to share with others.

In all these occasions, a recommendation for tips was given to them at the end of the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

For a PH to initiate a conversation about tipping before the end of the hunt or worse still discuss a previous clients tip good or bad would certainly get him fired by a decent operation.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
While always a contentious issue it is an issue that should not be complicated and have to say that Mark Youngs post hits it on the head

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posted 14 March 2014 21:03 Hide Post
I don't know why this tipping thing causes such angst. A safari is a commodity. Something you have bought. You own it. Handle all aspects of the tip as you prefer. Don't give a tip. Give a tip. Give what you want to who you want. I think it is only reasonable to consult the PH so you don't upset the pecking order in the camp if you choose to tip but otherwise don't worry about it.

I personally think it is nice to tip and it adds to my safari experience but if it doesn't work for you don't tip and don't loose any sleep over what the safari crew will think of you once you've left. You've already paid to hire them for your safari. You've paid for their service. A tip is something extra.

Whatever tipping structure a particular camp has is not your problem nor is how many people are in the staff your problem. Safari operators often hire a 20 plus person crew because it is politically advantageous to hire as many locals as possible. Don't worry about stretching your budget to give everybody something.

If your going to tip figure out what number works for you and budget for that. If you don't want to tip don't. In either case don't fret about it.

Mark

From an operators point of view some points that may help

1/ WE POSTED AN AVERAGE PER DAY TIP SCHEDULE ON OUR WEBSITE
- The reason we did that was we were asked so many times by clients to do so and were nearly always asked by clients in camp “how much to give?”. This has been well received. IT CLEARLY STATES THAT IT IS PREFORMANCE BASED AND NOT EXPECTED AND ONE CAN LEAVE MORE LESS OR NOTHING!

2/ If and when we have a client that is a “NON tipper” as we do IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO EFFORT OR STANDARD OF THE SAFARI. I honestly believe if one runs a good outfit then professionalism will OVER RIDE “outward emotion”. In outward Emotion I mean that no one will show any dissatisfaction towards the client at the end of a hunt should he have not tipped or did not tip a lot. That is not to say that there will not be discussions within the staff about the client once he has left- that’s just human nature! Would they treat him any differently if and when he returned- NO. If I heard that PH/staff did they would be fired on the spot and they know it. I have a client who has hunted with me many many times for elephant and is a virtual non tipper and he is always received with equal enthusiasm as a big tipper- its not Mike Jines by the way!!!!

3/ When a client asks the PH for a recommendation I can say with 100% certainty, within our group of PHs anyway, and I am sure amongst any other self respecting Phs that they would NEVER put an amount against their name. Infact their name would not be there at all.

4/ As to the comment that operators should pay staff a decent wage where by they do not need/ expect a tip. Firstly I think that it is important to understand that from yester year one of the experiences of hunting Africa was the fact that you were waited on at ever second and your every need was taken care of. Labour was ridiculously cheap and one could afford to have 20 people a camp.

Things have now changed and labour is not cheap. It is our single greatest expense every year. Our camps are now down to an average of 5 people per camp which is the bare minuim to run a camp TO OUR CLIENTS EXPECTATIONS. The alternative is Africa turning into a Canadian styled hunt where there is you ,your guide ,your two man tent and your back pack filled with baked beans. I am sure that that is not what the bulk of clients want when it comes to Africa.

5/ There is never general discussion about tips in camp with a new client and Ph will try and turn the conversation away from it at all costs. Obviously this is different when it is a client has hunted with us before and he knows how it works etc. For a PH to initiate a conversation about tipping before the end of the hunt or worse still discuss a previous clients tip good or bad would certainly get him fired by a decent operation.

Bottom line is if you want to tip and you have had a good experience TIP. If you wanted to tip but you had a bad experience DO NOT TIP .If you have had a good experience and you do not want to tip – it is your right DO NOT TIP.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
As a long time guide I hate it when you get American hunters who start dropping the hints that you are going to get a big tip if you 'produce' and look after them. I do my best for all hunters and that includes Joe Average, who is stretching things just to go on the hunt in the first place.

Usually the guys who do drop the hints about generous tips are the worst ones to be in the bush with.

I like Macs B's last post. Cynical, but accurate and it made me smile.

Herein lies the rub.

"I hate it when you get Americans"

Long ago, I stopped looking at the Client/PH relationship as one of "friendship." I go into these things seeing it, eyes wide open, as a business relationship.

If we look forward to the safari and pursue a friendship, we are bound to make errors in how WE conduct the safari. You may not complain about something, you may not tell him what you really want to do. You really want him to like you....right?

If I feel good about the thing at the end, tips will be commensurate with the quality of the experience. But it needs to be all about the quality and not trying to "get him to like you."

If you cannot afford to tip the "customary amount" stay home. Safari hunting is expensive, extraordinarily expensive. There is no way to shortcut the experience.

I have a guest editorial coming out in "An African Hunting Magazine", (next issue) that speaks to this exact point. Gonna piss off some folks. But it needs to be addressed by the industry as a whole, not just on AR.

Just one man's opinion.

Steve

quote:

If you cannot afford to tip the "customary amount" stay home. Safari hunting is expensive, extraordinarily expensive. There is no way to shortcut the experience.

quote:

1/ WE POSTED AN AVERAGE PER DAY TIP SCHEDULE ON OUR WEBSITE
- The reason we did that was we were asked so many times by clients to do so and were nearly always asked by clients in camp “how much to give?”. This has been well received. IT CLEARLY STATES THAT IT IS PREFORMANCE BASED AND NOT EXPECTED AND ONE CAN LEAVE MORE LESS OR NOTHING!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Highlander7,

The normal recommendations talk about 10% of the daily rate, not including the trophy fees as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Highlander7,

The normal recommendations talk about 10% of the daily rate, not including the trophy fees as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Highlander7,

The normal recommendations talk about 10% of the daily rate, not including the trophy fees as well.

To my way of thinking - 'total safari cost' - would include trophy fees as well..

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quote:

4/ As to the comment that operators should pay staff a decent wage where by they do not need/ expect a tip. Firstly I think that it is important to understand that from yester year one of the experiences of hunting Africa was the fact that you were waited on at ever second and your every need was taken care of. Labour was ridiculously cheap and one could afford to have 20 people a camp.

Things have now changed and labour is not cheap. It is our single greatest expense every year. Our camps are now down to an average of 5 people per camp which is the bare minuim to run a camp TO OUR CLIENTS EXPECTATIONS. The alternative is Africa turning into a Canadian styled hunt where there is you ,your guide ,your two man tent and your back pack filled with baked beans. I am sure that that is not what the bulk of clients want when it comes to Africa.

quote:

To me a tip based on number of days worked and performance (not dead animals) makes far more sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Highlander7:

quote:

If you cannot afford to tip the "customary amount" stay home. Safari hunting is expensive, extraordinarily expensive. There is no way to shortcut the experience.

I've been following this thread with interest. There are a lot of grey areas I see popping up. I'm one that is not against tipping and will tip accordingly (for good or bad service, not if successful or unsuccessful).

Now I see some class warfare starting. I'm not a rich man and work hard. How can you say it if you cannot afford the " customary amount" to stay home? Who are you excluding and who are you to say? Why can't I tip what I can afford? Your telling me I shouldn't experience the same hunt as yours just because I can't afford as much as you. It's no different than bidding on a hunt and not paying the full price. We heard many time the right thing to do is to pay the full price. Example. You won a $10,000 hunt for $5,000. Now are you starting to base your tip on $5,000 instead of $10,000? I'm not starting a pissing match but, you cannot exclude people just because they can't afford the "customary amount."

quote:

1/ WE POSTED AN AVERAGE PER DAY TIP SCHEDULE ON OUR WEBSITE
- The reason we did that was we were asked so many times by clients to do so and were nearly always asked by clients in camp “how much to give?”. This has been well received. IT CLEARLY STATES THAT IT IS PREFORMANCE BASED AND NOT EXPECTED AND ONE CAN LEAVE MORE LESS OR NOTHING!

My wife and I are looking into a Buff hunt in Moz. One PH we have looked into has posted the gratuities as "recommended 10% of total safari cost." Now I'm not positive if that includes your airline ticket cost but, you see how confusing it can be.

quote:

Now I see some class warfare starting.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
It is a class warfare any way you put it Steve.
Not a cool opinion.
The comparisons with cars, taxes etc. are like apples and oranges for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by gunny:
I have spent time in over a dozen safari camps and in my humble opinion Buzz runs the best most efficient camps in the business. He does it with fewer people that take more responsibility than any other operator that I have been with in both Zambia and Zim. I can't see why five people can't take care of Jane and I for two weeks without regard to country. I have seen camps in Botswana where you will be greeted by a dozen overweight women singing and dancing who must spend half the day washing their uniforms. I am more comfortable with a small tight knit camp such as Buzz has in Dande East than a sprawling network of chalets along a river bed but that's just me.

quote:

You can't say this is class warfare or anything like that, that's just not true.

quote:

Originally posted by dla69:

quote:

4/ As to the comment that operators should pay staff a decent wage where by they do not need/ expect a tip. Firstly I think that it is important to understand that from yester year one of the experiences of hunting Africa was the fact that you were waited on at ever second and your every need was taken care of. Labour was ridiculously cheap and one could afford to have 20 people a camp.

Things have now changed and labour is not cheap. It is our single greatest expense every year. Our camps are now down to an average of 5 people per camp which is the bare minuim to run a camp TO OUR CLIENTS EXPECTATIONS. The alternative is Africa turning into a Canadian styled hunt where there is you ,your guide ,your two man tent and your back pack filled with baked beans. I am sure that that is not what the bulk of clients want when it comes to Africa.

While the costs of labor may be increasing, I don't believe that is what is being discussed. The issue is whether or not it is proper to shift the manner in which those costs are paid from being included in the daily fees to being expected to be paid by tips.

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quote:

We should be Tipping a rate per day to the camp, and the value of this should be based on the outfitters daily labour cost. Not the value of the Safari.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
"On my first Africa hunt, Zimbabbwe in 1994, my PH had to be replaced as the hunt before me was extended bit. A replacement was hired, a young man in his early 20s. Among the things I learned from my youthful and talkative pro was what tips were expected (this on the drive to camp from Harare) and that higher quality animals were saved for more expensive hunts thereby generating a higher tip. The example he gave me was if he knew a 43" buffalo was in a herd that came to drink at a specific waterhole daily he would take an elephant hunter after that buff and not a hunter on a buffalo and plains game safari. While both hunters will be appreciative, the elephant hunter will be able to tip more. Is this common?"

I absolutely no doubt that this has happened on occasion, but doubt it is common. From the hunting aspect in free range there are many things beyond the control of the PH when it comes to wildlife movements, even if they wanted to.

I can tell you after 38 years as a big game guide that I have seen a lot of things over the years. Now remember I am speaking here as hiring out as a "guide" to an outfitter.

I worked for outfitters who always gave all of their European clients to their brand new guides because they don't tip. Guides who had worked for the outfitter for a long time and of course his family members, got the US clients and repeat clients that tipped well.

So the new guides not only got a crappy wage, they missed on most of the decent tipping. Sad but true. Others of course will think this is just fine, just capitalism at work. LOL

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quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
We should be looking at the tip from a different
perspective;

It should not be linked at all to the amount of money you are spending with the outfitter on either day rates or trophy fees,

I hunted Tanzania in March 2013 and there were another 2 clients in camp, we were all there for 10 days,

They were both hunting a buffalo and some common plains game species.

I was hunting a full masaai species package which was about 3 times the cost of their day rates,

We each had the same people looking after us in camp and we each had a vehicle, Ph., driver and 2 trackers.

At the end of the safari the outfitter presented us with the Tip book as well as suggested tips,

Because my Safari was valued higher than the other 2 clients, I was expected to Tip more than them.

We should be Tipping a rate per day to the camp, and the value of this should be based on the outfitters daily labour cost. Not the value of the Safari.

JK

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