First off I am gald that MS came to the forum for his bit.

Secondly, as a result of being on this forum and from my experiences in this industry I have developed a healthy degree of respect for both MS and Saeed.

That said, this long and drawn-out debate has yeilded one gleaming truth as I see it:

I can plainly see that no mutaually agreed upon truce will ever come to be and never will because hunting evokes such deeply emotional debates.

We have two very competent and experienced hunters that have developed their own unique styles of hunting.
So much so, that in fact they have developed a "conviction" for their respective styles - neither of which, may I add is totally correct / totally wrong. This conviction has led to the formation of two camps; Camp MS & Camp Saeed. Corny as this may sound, that's it in a nutshell. Camp MS sees his way of doing thigs as perfectly legitimate, Camp Saeed sees their ideal way of doing things as correct.


That's the truth I speak of and feel this debate is effectively over.

Just a reminder - the anti's love this stuff and appreciate all that we have done for their cause by way of this excessive display of infighting drama.

We are all hunters here (or at least claim to be)...Argue as we may, we had better stick together and remember we are an endangered species!

JW

Shakari,

don't laugh. A couple years ago an OoSH* actually brought a horse into a check station claiming he had shot a cow Elk.

Rich

*OoSH: Out of State Hunter

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
The correct word is "goad" - not entice and to goad an already wounded animal can hardly be accepted as being ethical.
In a nutshel the countless charges that our esteemed MS has encountered are through having "goaded" the animal beyond extremes.

And yes, if that is what rattles your nuts then by all means hunt that way - bullfighting in Spain got the chop just because the animal was purposely wounded and continuously goaded.

It all boils down to ethics and in attempting to put the animal down as quickly and humanely as possible. (IMO)

Well there ya go..learn something new each and everyday!

And here I was thinking that "Goading" was the act of scratching my "goads" while I read this thread..

Entice just sounds so much more, um...enticing.

Tomatoe tomato and the beauty of the English language.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Shakari,

don't laugh. A couple years ago an OoSH* actually brought a horse into a check station claiming he had shot a cow Elk.

Rich

*OoSH: Out of State Hunter

Rich,

No shit?

Oh what a hoot!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Shakari,

don't laugh. A couple years ago an OoSH* actually brought a horse into a check station claiming he had shot a cow Elk.

Rich


That urban legend has been alive for decades.
*OoSH: Out of State Hunter

That urban legend has been alive for decades. Only when I heard it the State was Pennsylvania.

Rich

I saw the pics of the OoSH in MT that shot and tagged a llama and had it gutted in the back of his truck, but never a horse!

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
The correct word is "goad" - not entice and to goad an already wounded animal can hardly be accepted as being ethical.
In a nutshel the countless charges that our esteemed MS has encountered are through having "goaded" the animal beyond extremes.

And yes, if that is what rattles your nuts then by all means hunt that way - bullfighting in Spain got the chop just because the animal was purposely wounded and continuously goaded.

It all boils down to ethics and in attempting to put the animal down as quickly and humanely as possible. (IMO)

Well there ya go..learn something new each and everyday!

And here I was thinking that "Goading" was the act of scratching my "goads" while I read this thread..

Entice just sounds so much more, um...enticing.

Tomatoe tomato and the beauty of the English language.

Gonads = nuts = balls = testicles
Yes, Queen's English Old Boy!

quote:

Originally posted by 458Lottfan:
ISS; I have DIY hunted in AZ, CO, OH, WY and AK.

My only guided experience was in Namibia on a Plains game hunt. I fully understand that in Africa a guild/PH is mandatory.

From what I know of Mark Sullivan, he has hunted all over North America and on his own.

Two of my DIY hunt reports here on AR. http://forums.accuratereloadin...661017611#5661017611

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=445103349#445103349

458lottfan, I think you are mistakened if you think just because the largest % of the African hunter here have only hunted with a guide, or PH in Africa. I know personaly several of the folks who post here, and to the man all have hunted just about everthing that is available in north America,and only need a PH/guide because it is legisated by the game departments, for any hunting by a alian in African countries, and certain species in North America for out of staters.

Of the folks I know if it were posible for them to set up their own camp in Africa, and it was legal, all could hunt just about anything they chose in Africa on their own, Myself included. From the age of six years, I have hunted everything till the age of 25 by myself accompanied by nobody other than ocassionally by my grandfather till I was about ten! My bag on self guided hunts has included almost everything offered in N/A, except brown bear and polar bear, rocky mountain goat and the wild sheep. Some of those I took but was required by law to hire a guide, but could have sucessfully hunted them alone if allowed. This only pertains to myself, but I know that most of the guys I know have done the same, and every one of them could do the same in Africa if it were legal. Many of the guys I grew up with could track bird across open sky, and have little need for a tracker. What an alian needs in Africa is someone who knows the law, and who can supply a camp, and transport, these are few things he can't check as baggage on the airlines!

You say the only place you used a guide, was in Namibia,and there YOU may have depended on the PH to wipe you, but that doesn't mean you needed him to, nor does it mean that you weren't hunting, and I doubt you shot someone else's animals! That certainly can't be said of Mark Sullivan!

I see in your avitar you have taken the rocky mountin goat! In Alaska you have to be guided by a licsend guide or be guided by a close member if kin, unless you are a resident. Simply because the guide was your brother who is a resident, doesnt mean you didn't have a guide?

If it was taken in anyplace other than your home state, then it was guided, and in some states, even in one's home state as well, I don't know about the requirements in Arizona. The two hunts you posted links to are not unusual, most guys here have done the same hunts alone, and I'm sure you didn't take that float plane with you from Arizona.

458LOTTfan, all I'm saying here is you assume that because it requires a lot of lagistics to set up a workable camp 1000 miles from the nearest resturante, or gas station, and tha law requres you to have a licensed PH with you doen't mean you are not hunting, hell I've probably spotted as many of my trpohies as my PH or tracker has over the years. It is just I have to get the PH's permission to shoot what I find, and as long as I'm not hunting with MS,which in never have nor will I ever, because we certainly would not get along, because I tend to want to shoot my own game.

MacD: Your question on my Mountain Goat. I did need a guild of sorts. I AM VERY LUCKY, my older brother was my resident relative guide for my hunt in Alaska. You are correct. As a non resident you need a guide or relative to hunt Goats, Sheep and Brown Bear in Alaska, but hunting with my brother on Kodiak, who lives in Wasilla is not the same as using a guide by any stretch. My brother works so much that he rarely gets or makes time to hunt. It is kind of sad. The opportunity to hunt in Alaska is what drew him up there.

If they had Mountain Goats to hunt in AZ I absolute would hunt them here at home as well.

I stated that I was fully aware of the guide requirements in Africa. I would have loved to be turned loose in Namibia on my own to hunt for a few days! What and incredible place with such diversity in game animals.

If a drop camp hunt was available I would sign up in and instant.

I did not mean to imply all african hunters are not capable of hunting on their own. But since my association around a few of the hunting organizations I have seen some prime examples of what I was describing.

My PH in Namibia did not even take the rifle out of the truck after my first day of hunting. You are correct I shot all of my animals.

For all I know Mark Sullivan and his clients had an agreement on when Mark would shoot or not, so your statement about Mark shooting other peoples animals is being presented in a negative opinion. Unless you know someone that has hunted with Mark and can say otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well, if 5% actually charge, then I should have been charged many times, having shot quite a few buffalo.

But, the facts speak for themselves.

If one shoots well - there is really no need to "seek danger, and look death in the face" - the buffalo do die without too much hassle.

It is amazing that literally hundreds of PHs hunting for so many years hardly ever get a charge.

Mark Sullivan seems to get them on demand.

He gets them because he seeks them and entices them to happen.. He has plainly said that himself. There's no secret on why he has so many charges as opposed to other PHs.. He has made himself based on those charges. And yes, plenty of people pay big bucks to hunt with him because of that and that alone. If you don't like it or agree with it, continue NOT to hunt with him!! It's quite simple actually.

You do not get them because you do not seek them and do not entice the bulls to charge (a healthy plan most PHs follow!).

Why is this so hard for some to understand? MS himself does not hide the fact that he invades the bull's space and pressures it to "decide how he should die"..

Saeed, I'm sure that if you were seeking a charge from one of your numerous buffalo kills, all's you would have to do would be to walk up to the bull as soon as the 1st bullet was put into him.. walk head-long into him in his field of view and get into his space.. I'm sure your 5% rule would quickly go up exponentially from there on out!! But that is not how you hunt.. BUT IT IS HOW MS HUNTS!! NOW, we know that is not going to happen, BUT if it were, you too would have all the charges you (or the Vincents) would ever want to handle. Easy, eh?

It's all a matter of preference and sematics at this point, folks..

Well put Scotty. I can't work out why so many people have trouble grasping your simple explanation.

I guess that if certain scenarios don't fit neatly into their parameters of what is correct, then they just don't want to know.

Common sense just isn't that common I suppose.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

I guess those of us who can handle a DG rifle properly

Rich,

Karma is a real bitch sometimes, With your limited experience I would hold fire on a comment like that.

Steve

Aint that the truth.

"Pride commeth before the fall".

quote:

don't laugh. A couple years ago an OoSH* actually brought a horse into a check station claiming he had shot a cow Elk.

Rich:

That story has been around a long time. Variations include burros and cows and horses still wearing saddles.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by 458Lottfan:
MacD: Your question on my Mountain Goat. I did need a guild of sorts. I AM VERY LUCKY, my older brother was my resident relative guide for my hunt in Alaska. You are correct. As a non resident you need a guide or relative to hunt Goats, Sheep and Brown Bear in Alaska, but hunting with my brother on Kodiak, who lives in Wasilla is not the same as using a guide by any stretch. My brother works so much that he rarely gets or makes time to hunt. It is kind of sad. The opportunity to hunt in Alaska is what drew him up there.

If they had Mountain Goats to hunt in AZ I absolute would hunt them here at home as well.

.

I started hunting Alaska back in 1984, and have hunted every year there after till 2006 but now being in my 74th year those mountains are getting steeper!

I know what you mean about the goats. A friend of mine and I were hunting Black bear at Twin Lakes on the Kenai Peninsula and while crossing a stream on the side of the mountain we were camped on above one the Twin Lakes we looked up, to see a big billy with about 10" horns standing broadside looking at us from about 50 feet. Of course we didn't have paper for him or a guide so couldn't take him. I had my 41 mag Ruger Blackhawk pistol with me, and pulled it to just aim the sights on his ribs, and could have easily taken him with the pistol. He watched us for a while, then went on his way across the valley below and up the mountain on the other side and out of sight over the ridge. Getting to place the sights on him for what would be a sure kill, is a real hunting memory! Hunting is not just about killing, but hunting and finding!

fujotupu

relax, buddy..it was a joke! Take a minute and smile!

ISS / Shakari

From the newspaper Montana Standard Jan. '09

Not a horse ..But will a Llama work?

http://www.mtstandard.com/news...5d-b913540dae57.html

john frederick,

I will again issue my request for you to post pictures of some of your DG trophies and relate the stories of your hunts for same.

Y'see I think you are a troll who does not have anything to contribute here except

I would love for you to prove me wrong, so please do so at your earliest convenience. I am certain I am not the only one here wanting you to share some of your vast knowledge and experience with us.

I am just on record with ONE Cape Buffalo, who cheated me out of an MS scenario by expiring rather quickly when I shot and killed him. I read RR when I was eight, and the logic behind suggesting "Use Enough Gun" was not lost on me.

I shoot more big bore rifles and rounds on an annual basis than most of you here. I can't afford multiple trips to Africa every year, I'm just a middle class guy with a penchant for large caliber rifles.

regards to all,

Rich
DRSS like the one in the picture...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
john frederick,

I will again issue my request for you to post pictures of some of your DG trophies and relate the stories of your hunts for same.

Y'see I think you are a troll who does not have anything to contribute here except

I would love for you to prove me wrong, so please do so at your earliest convenience. I am certain I am not the only one here wanting you to share some of your vast knowledge and experience with us.

I am just on record with ONE Cape Buffalo, who cheated me out of an MS scenario by expiring rather quickly when I shot and killed him. I read RR when I was eight, and the logic behind suggesting "Use Enough Gun" was not lost on me.

I shoot more big bore rifles and rounds on an annual basis than most of you here. I can't afford multiple trips to Africa every year, I'm just a middle class guy with a penchant for large caliber rifles.

regards to all,

Rich
DRSS like the one in the picture...

Unlike you, I don't feel the need (on a daily basis, like yourself) to beat my own drum. I just visit this site to learn from those who know more than me (there are many) and occasionally to get amusement from those that don't. By the way, you are not on the first category.

Last time I saw a picture on this forum of you shooting a big bore, both you and the rifle could have appeared in separate frames.

You should learn how to hang on to those things, it's not good to drop them.

Keep practicing, you will get there.........eventually.

Mr Frederick,

What would you like to know??

I may have the answers

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
Mr Frederick,

What would you like to know??

I may have the answers

Steve

Mr Nganga,
you are certainly one of those on this forum that I would dearly love to sit down with and have a chat over a beer or 10.

There is no doubt that I could learn much from you and I may even have a few tips to pass on myself.

I think we should work towards making such a meeting a reality.

Cheers for now.

You are beginning to sound like a never-was-been just living vicariously through others experiences. So that is one major difference between you and I. I have at least basic firsthand knowledge of what I post here.

Which does put me in the first category. We now know that I have made two more trips to Africa than you have. We can also understand that I have killed one more each: Cape Buffalo, Kudu, Gemsbok, Water Buck, and Caracal than you have.

About the rifle, you have probably read that I designed the 550 Gibbs cartridge in the picture, paid for reamers, got Hornady to make and offer reloading dies for it, shot it at the HnS along with several others who now understand what a 615gr bullet at over 2500fps level of recoil is like. The rifle came back to me, it may have been a lack of checkering on the stock issue.

We now also know that all you know about hunting Dangerous Game is what you read here and elsewhere.

I speak of limited, but personal experience here. I never claimed to be an expert, I just know what I have accomplished myself.
There are hundreds of more experienced and accomplished African hunters here. You're not one of them.

The sad thing is, in order to deal with little piss-ants like you I have to talk up what I have done. But, I'm okay with that.

regards,

Rich
DRSS


The other thing; you don't have a drum to beat...
Good Luck Nganga, now he thinks you want to adopt him

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
You are beginning to sound like a never-was-been just living vicariously through others experiences. So that is one major difference between you and I. I have at least basic firsthand knowledge of what I post here.

Which does put me in the first category. We now know that I have made two more trips to Africa than you have. We can also understand that I have killed one more each: Cape Buffalo, Kudu, Gemsbok, Water Buck, and Caracal than you have.

About the rifle, you have probably read that I designed the 550 Gibbs cartridge in the picture, paid for reamers, got Hornady to make and offer reloading dies for it, shot it at the HnS along with several others who now understand what a 615gr bullet at over 2500fps level of recoil is like. The rifle came back to me, it may have been a lack of checkering on the stock issue.

We now also know that all you know about hunting Dangerous Game is what you read here and elsewhere.

I speak of limited, but personal experience here. I never claimed to be an expert, I just know what I have accomplished myself.
There are hundreds of more experienced and accomplished African hunters here. You're not one of them.

The sad thing is, in order to deal with little piss-ants like you I have to talk up what I have done. But, I'm okay with that.

regards,

Rich
DRSS


The other thing; you don't have a drum to beat...
Good Luck Nganga, now he thinks you want to adopt him

Most of the folks that I listen to on this forum are virtually anonymous to me, but have obvious knowledge.

Anyone reading this forum is forced to know how many wives you have had, how many children, your war record, how many Viet Cong you slew, what car you drive (and colour), how many cattle you have castrated and countless other drivel and irrelevant crap that you spew forth. What you are too stupid to recognize is that most folks couldn't give a toss about your private life or your endless achievements.

You will no doubt find this hard to believe, but I am putting you on "ignore" from now on, because, quite frankly you are a buffoon and incredibly boring.

It's for you own good,

I do wish you would not put people in quotes it ruins the fact that there already on my ignore list for others on the thread. my snivel for today

you funny man!



You can't leave me on "Ignore" for more than fifteen minutes. You have no life here without me to spoon feed you real life experiences.

Anybody want to start an over/under?

regards,

Rich

quote:

Last time I saw a picture on this forum of you shooting a big bore, both you and the rifle could have appeared in separate frames.

John,
Your killin me over here

ISS......how do you know what he has or hasn't shot? he just doesn't feel the need to stand upon Bogus Basin ski resort and shout out every day......I've been to Africa!!!!!Yahoo!!!!!!

Steve

because he said so?

Rich

mark i wellcome u to AR, i also dont understand why ppl talk against anyone without even knowing anyone,simply hurting for no reason,i also regard the freedom of speach but that should b that way that u dont hurt someone feeling.and what if that person dosent even know what ppl r saying untill then his credibility is down,till the person appears infront of everyone to explaine the truth,life is too short to love i dont know how ppl find time to fight.regards

quote:

Originally posted by sikander:
mark i wellcome u to AR, i also dont understand why ppl talk against anyone without even knowing anyone,simply hurting for no reason,i also regard the freedom of speach but that should b that way that u dont hurt someone feeling.and what if that person dosent even know what ppl r saying untill then his credibility is down,till the person appears infront of everyone to explaine the truth,life is too short to love i dont know how ppl find time to fight.regards

Damn that is one hard to read post!
I'd bet you are a person who texts while driving, that is if your old enough to drive!

Mac,

beat me to that one!

We need to be nice to the younger generation, they are the ones paying into our social security fund these days...


Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
john frederick,

I will again issue my request for you to post pictures of some of your DG trophies and relate the stories of your hunts for same.

Y'see I think you are a troll who does not have anything to contribute here except

I would love for you to prove me wrong, so please do so at your earliest convenience. I am certain I am not the only one here wanting you to share some of your vast knowledge and experience with us.

Rich
DRSS like the one in the picture...

Interestingly enough, ISS tried last week in a PM to tell me what an accomplished elk hunter he is. Claiming to have shot 29 bulls in 30 years, and 26 of them scoring over 350" B&C! Obviously he hasn't spent much time elk hunting in Idaho, to make such a claim. So I asked him to send pictures of the bulls, as I told him his claim was indeed not truthful? Fun thing was, he never responded but did put me on his ignore list? Perhaps ignoring the truth is easier than dealing with it!

The thread that'll never die...

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
The thread that'll never die...

A bit like the buffalos in question!

Sorry about that chaps. I just couldn't resist it.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Interestingly enough, ISS tried last week in a PM to tell me what an accomplished elk hunter he is. Claiming to have shot 29 bulls in 30 years, and 26 of them scoring over 350" B&C! Obviously he hasn't spent much time elk hunting in Idaho, to make such a claim. So I asked him to send pictures of the bulls, as I told him his claim was indeed not truthful? Fun thing was, he never responded but did put me on his ignore list? Perhaps ignoring the truth is easier than dealing with it!

ISS

This is not the first time your claims have been questioned on the forum. I have yet to see you put these questions to rest, but I very well may have missed your reply.

Would you please provide proof so that your nay-sayers can rest.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Interestingly enough, ISS tried last week in a PM to tell me what an accomplished elk hunter he is. Claiming to have shot 29 bulls in 30 years, and 26 of them scoring over 350" B&C! Obviously he hasn't spent much time elk hunting in Idaho, to make such a claim. So I asked him to send pictures of the bulls, as I told him his claim was indeed not truthful? Fun thing was, he never responded but did put me on his ignore list? Perhaps ignoring the truth is easier than dealing with it!

ISS

This is not the first time your claims have been questioned on the forum. I have yet to see you put these questions to rest, but I very well may have missed your reply.

Would you please provide proof so that your nay-sayers can rest.

The silence is deafening.

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

Anyone reading this forum is forced to know how many wives you have had, how many children, your war record, how many Viet Cong you slew, what car you drive (and colour), how many cattle you have castrated and countless other drivel and irrelevant crap that you spew forth. What you are too stupid to recognize is that most folks couldn't give a toss about your private life or your endless achievements.

[/QUOTE]Originally posted by Blacktailer:

ES,
It's called "Keyboard Courage". [/QUOTE]



[/QUOTE]Originally posted by ted thorn:

This is good, but I hate keyboard bragging!!

I don't care what kind of bow/rifle you shoot.

I know you went to Africa, Alaska, ect. you told us 100 times!

I never ever wanted to hear what kind of car/motorcycle you have or had.

Yes you are (enter age here). I don't care how old you are. Age does not equal knowledge.

Soooo you went to college? Witch one? No wait…..I don’t care!

Hunting is not a test of skill. There are no grades given.....

Unless however you are a keyboard bragger.

There are many of those around here. Some have so many post I find it hard to believe they hunt at all!!!



Line #4[/QUOTE]



________________________________________________________________________________________________

So, if I posted pictures; will you then claim that they do not all look like they will score at least 350? Or will it be that I did not keep the racks with my tags on them? Or that I need to post closeups so you can make sure my name and the year are readable? I sell them to a gentleman who comes thru the valley every late fall and buys them for several dollars a pound. There's no pleasing a few of you. Save it for Reno, we can chat then and there.

This is like me asking one of you if you have any nude pictures of your wife. Then asking you if you want to buy some.

Pictures, heck I don't even have any pictures of my ex-wife.

I will confess, that I finally put someone on ignore. Even Busheler was unable to elicit that response. But, AN did. I think he averaged four PMs a day to me for the last month.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
So, if I posted pictures; will you then claim that they do not all look like they will score at least 350? Or will it be that I did not keep the racks with my tags on them? Or that I need to post closeups so you can make sure my name and the year are readable? I sell them to a gentleman who comes thru the valley every late fall and buys them for several dollars a pound. There's no pleasing a few of you. Save it for Reno, we can chat then and there.

This is like me asking one of you if you have any nude pictures of your wife. Then asking you if you want to buy some.

Pictures, heck I don't even have any pictures of my ex-wife.

I will confess, that I finally put someone on ignore. Even Busheler was unable to elicit that response. But, AN did. I think he averaged four PMs a day to me for the last month.

Rich

First off Rich, we know you don't have the pictures, cause it never, ever happened. Secondly, if I sent you 4 PM's a day for the past month that would be roughly 120 PM's, correct? Well please feel free to post just 12 PM's to you, from me in the past month. That's only 10% of your claim, but we both know that won't happen either, cause I did no such thing. Honestly Rich, do you ever tell the truth?

Rich never let's the truth get in his way.

I say you are full of shit.....I call

Ted,

mighty deer slayer, are you up to calling me a liar?

Rich

Rich,

So if Ted calls you a liar what is your next move?

Mark

Send him a sympathy card. If he is so consumed with envy and spite that he has absolutely nothing to contribute to the discussion except a personal attack there is nothing else to do.

He does personify the cowardly anonymity of the internet, wouldn't you say?

On the other hand, this is an opportunity to set your personal prejudices aside for a minute and just look at his post as if were directed at you. Are you able to do that?

Rich