quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
I have never hunted buffalo but I would like to some day. You Mark, wrote the introduction for the 577 Nitro Express 3 Inch on page 435 of the Barnes Reloading Manual. I have some questions on the "massive bull standing his ground in heavy brush" that you stalked to within "16 yards" and then "hammered" between the eyes at "less than 10 feet." My questions for experienced buffalo hunters are:

1. Do buffalo generally stand their ground and/or become "enraged" when stalked? I had been under the impression that they would usually depart when they became aware of a stalker unless, of course, they were wounded.

2. I know it's all the rage to stalk elephant to very close range before capping them but is that usual or even necessary with buffalo?

3. A "snake-infested korongo" is mentioned. What is a korongo and are they usually snake infested? How many have run into snakes whilst hunting buffalo?

Let me put it this way.

I was never a fan of how Mark Sullivan hunts.
His post above has not changed my mind one bit.

He is a showman, just like in Hollywood movies.

You have to take what you see from showmen with a great doze of salt. As the reality is far from what is shown or claimed.

Having shot quite a few buffalo, my experience has been the exact opposite of what Mark claims.

And if there was any doubt in my mind of all the wrong ways he claims to hunt, his claim of waiting for a charging animal to be 10 feet from him defies any excuse for him to claim he is actually a professional hunter.

This is the most unprofessional behaviour of any Ph I have ever heard of.

I see that Mr. Sullivan claimed that "There are two kinds of buffalo; those that run and those that charge."
"Ninety-five percent of all wounded buffalo fall into the first category. Those that run will never charge." That leave 5% who fall into the “charger” category I calculate. I also take from reading in Context that Mr. Sullivan means “wounded” buffalo in the above statistical analysis.

Saeed: you say "Having shot quite a few buffalo, my experience has been the exact opposite of what Mark claims."

Please explain. By the way; I have never seen a Sullivan video or hunted Cape Buffalo so I have no platform other than reading comprehension to stand on.

best regards,
dmw

As an outfitter I am always amazed at the shooting abilities of my clients. There are those that take hunting and shooting seriously and then do their job by shooting accurately and killing the animal. Unfortunately there are far too many "hunters" who under pressure fail to shoot accurately. eg. Last year I was guiding a group of 6 black bear hunters. On the second night 4 hunters shoot at bears. Of these 4 we were unable to retrieve any of these bears even after exhaustive searches. Every hunter was sitting a 12 foot ladder stand, less than 40 yards from a bait. As I said before, there are far too many hunters who when they get exited make terrible shots.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I stand corrected. On at least two points.

I have no reason to doubt what you have posted.

If you say there have been no non-disclosure statements, I will believe you. I still have issues with the tone of your videos.

My personal opinion is that the sensationalism is at the expense of the animal.

I will send a letter to SCI encouraging them to make the issues they have with you a matter of public disclosure.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Rich, takes a big man to admit he is wrong and had his head squarely up his on ass.
I have alot more respect for you now.

quote:

Originally posted by Constructoman:
As an outfitter I am always amazed at the shooting abilities of my clients. There are those that take hunting and shooting seriously and then do their job by shooting accurately and killing the animal. Unfortunately there are far too many "hunters" who under pressure fail to shoot accurately. eg. Last year I was guiding a group of 6 black bear hunters. On the second night 4 hunters shoot at bears. Of these 4 we were unable to retrieve any of these bears even after exhaustive searches. Every hunter was sitting a 12 foot ladder stand, less than 40 yards from a bait. As I said before, there are far too many hunters who when they get exited make terrible shots.

Well, there are good shots and bad shots but a guy paying for a safari or hunt should have the privilege of dispatching his own animal for better or for worse if that is his or her choice. There are perhaps some who wish to "collaborate" with their PH or perhaps even have the PH collect their trophies for them but that's not me. I don't really care about what all the experts says on the shows, etc., barring some real emergency, I want what goes on my wall to be taken by me personally. I do not want to EVER hunt with someone who is automatically going to shoot my animal for me.

First , I am glad Mark came on. Secondly, I have hunted with and filmed for Mark. Next, I think SCI owes him , and the membership if MS approves , an explanation of their charges against him. Now... I have seen the videos, read the book , and followed the MS threads on AR. While I appreciate the majority of Marks remarks and fully believe he means them ( and lives and hunts by them) I do question some of the letters statements. Like Mark ,I am a very direct guy. Mark takes, unlike his earlier statement, quite a few cheap shots at folks who do not share his style of hunting, rifle choices,gear (example :" ladies doubles, bino bras, shooting shoulder pads in practice) etc.. These do offend, intended or not. Words like "coward' also are offensive when aimed at guys who are not ready or able to do battle with their life on the line against dangerous game at 10 feet. Mark, hunt your style, which you do very well, but stop with the cheap shots at the less experienced, skilled, or steady. You have also brought Craig B. into some pretty unflattering language, in print no less, and like so many here talking about you, you have NEVER hunted with him. Can't have it both way Mark. On the other hand, I have hunted with you BOTH , have shot bad stuff of my shoes with you both , and respect the ability of each of you even though your styles and and feelings could not be more opposite. Not many guys here, if any, have my unique look into the situation. Food for thought at least Mark. But with that said, I do welcome you to the forum, am glad that you are headed to your beloved Tanzania where we had such fun, and hope your season will be both safe and successful. Also think you deserve a straight answer from SCI.
Men of AR, we can all be better behaved at times and should be. Emotions can run high, and do, and there are some TYPE A fella's who roost here daily. Lets give each other respect when it's called for, and temper our tirades with more fact than feelings at time. And I will try and take my own advise. Glad Mark had his say.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
First , I am glad Mark came on. Secondly, I have hunted with and filmed for Mark. Next, I think SCI owes him , and the membership if MS approves , an explanation of their charges against him. Now... I have seen the videos, read the book , and followed the MS threads on AR. While I appreciate the majority of Marks remarks and fully believe he means them ( and lives and hunts by them) I do question some of the letters statements. Like Mark ,I am a very direct guy. Mark takes, unlike his earlier statement, quite a few cheap shots at folks who do not share his style of hunting, rifle choices,gear (example :" ladies doubles, bino bras, shooting shoulder pads in practice) etc.. These do offend, intended or not. Words like "coward' also are offensive when aimed at guys who are not ready or able to do battle with their life on the line against dangerous game at 10 feet. Mark, hunt your style, which you do very well, but stop with the cheap shots at the less experienced, skilled, or steady. You have also brought Craig B. into some pretty unflattering language, in print no less, and like so many here talking about you, you have NEVER hunted with him. Can't have it both way Mark. On the other hand, I have hunted with you BOTH , have shot bad stuff of my shoes with you both , and respect the ability of each of you even though your styles and and feelings could not be more opposite. Not many guys here, if any, have my unique look into the situation. Food for thought at least Mark. But with that said, I do welcome you to the forum, am glad that you are headed to your beloved Tanzania where we had such fun, and hope your season will be both safe and successful. Also think you deserve a straight answer from SCI.
Men of AR, we can all be better behaved at times and should be. Emotions can run high, and do, and there are some TYPE A fella's who roost here daily. Lets give each other respect when it's called for, and temper our tirades with more fact than feelings at time. And I will try and take my own advise. Glad Mark had his say.

Very well stated, Dave.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
First , I am glad Mark came on. Secondly, I have hunted with and filmed for Mark. Next, I think SCI owes him , and the membership if MS approves , an explanation of their charges against him. Now... I have seen the videos, read the book , and followed the MS threads on AR. While I appreciate the majority of Marks remarks and fully believe he means them ( and lives and hunts by them) I do question some of the letters statements. Like Mark ,I am a very direct guy. Mark takes, unlike his earlier statement, quite a few cheap shots at folks who do not share his style of hunting, rifle choices,gear (example :" ladies doubles, bino bras, shooting shoulder pads in practice) etc.. These do offend, intended or not. Words like "coward' also are offensive when aimed at guys who are not ready or able to do battle with their life on the line against dangerous game at 10 feet. Mark, hunt your style, which you do very well, but stop with the cheap shots at the less experienced, skilled, or steady. You have also brought Craig B. into some pretty unflattering language, in print no less, and like so many here talking about you, you have NEVER hunted with him. Can't have it both way Mark. On the other hand, I have hunted with you BOTH , have shot bad stuff of my shoes with you both , and respect the ability of each of you even though your styles and and feelings could not be more opposite. Not many guys here, if any, have my unique look into the situation. Food for thought at least Mark. But with that said, I do welcome you to the forum, am glad that you are headed to your beloved Tanzania where we had such fun, and hope your season will be both safe and successful. Also think you deserve a straight answer from SCI.
Men of AR, we can all be better behaved at times and should be. Emotions can run high, and do, and there are some TYPE A fella's who roost here daily. Lets give each other respect when it's called for, and temper our tirades with more fact than feelings at time. And I will try and take my own advise. Glad Mark had his say.

Keen insights and astute recommendations from someone with a unique vantage point. Mark's disparagements about other hunters in general, and Craig B. in particular, are inappropriate and unprofessional. We would all do well to follow Dave's counsel – and Craig Boddington's example.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
I have never hunted buffalo but I would like to some day. You Mark, wrote the introduction for the 577 Nitro Express 3 Inch on page 435 of the Barnes Reloading Manual. I have some questions on the "massive bull standing his ground in heavy brush" that you stalked to within "16 yards" and then "hammered" between the eyes at "less than 10 feet." My questions for experienced buffalo hunters are:

1. Do buffalo generally stand their ground and/or become "enraged" when stalked? I had been under the impression that they would usually depart when they became aware of a stalker unless, of course, they were wounded.

2. I know it's all the rage to stalk elephant to very close range before capping them but is that usual or even necessary with buffalo?

3. A "snake-infested korongo" is mentioned. What is a korongo and are they usually snake infested? How many have run into snakes whilst hunting buffalo?

Let me put it this way.

I was never a fan of how Mark Sullivan hunts.
His post above has not changed my mind one bit.

He is a showman, just like in Hollywood movies.

You have to take what you see from showmen with a great doze of salt. As the reality is far from what is shown or claimed.

Having shot quite a few buffalo, my experience has been the exact opposite of what Mark claims.

And if there was any doubt in my mind of all the wrong ways he claims to hunt, his claim of waiting for a charging animal to be 10 feet from him defies any excuse for him to claim he is actually a professional hunter.

This is the most unprofessional behaviour of any Ph I have ever heard of.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
First , I am glad Mark came on. Secondly, I have hunted with and filmed for Mark. Next, I think SCI owes him , and the membership if MS approves , an explanation of their charges against him. Now... I have seen the videos, read the book , and followed the MS threads on AR. While I appreciate the majority of Marks remarks and fully believe he means them ( and lives and hunts by them) I do question some of the letters statements. Like Mark ,I am a very direct guy. Mark takes, unlike his earlier statement, quite a few cheap shots at folks who do not share his style of hunting, rifle choices,gear (example :" ladies doubles, bino bras, shooting shoulder pads in practice) etc.. These do offend, intended or not. Words like "coward' also are offensive when aimed at guys who are not ready or able to do battle with their life on the line against dangerous game at 10 feet. Mark, hunt your style, which you do very well, but stop with the cheap shots at the less experienced, skilled, or steady. You have also brought Craig B. into some pretty unflattering language, in print no less, and like so many here talking about you, you have NEVER hunted with him. Can't have it both way Mark. On the other hand, I have hunted with you BOTH , have shot bad stuff of my shoes with you both , and respect the ability of each of you even though your styles and and feelings could not be more opposite. Not many guys here, if any, have my unique look into the situation. Food for thought at least Mark. But with that said, I do welcome you to the forum, am glad that you are headed to your beloved Tanzania where we had such fun, and hope your season will be both safe and successful. Also think you deserve a straight answer from SCI.
Men of AR, we can all be better behaved at times and should be. Emotions can run high, and do, and there are some TYPE A fella's who roost here daily. Lets give each other respect when it's called for, and temper our tirades with more fact than feelings at time. And I will try and take my own advise. Glad Mark had his say.

Keen insights and astute recommendations from someone with a unique vantage point. Mark's disparagements about other hunters in general, and Craig B. in particular, are inappropriate and unprofessional. We would all do well to follow Dave's counsel – and Craig Boddington's example.

+2

I stand with you Dave on that. I don't even like it when PH's make disparaging remarks about clients. Keep the fact that clients don't shoot well to yourself, and offer them some kind of encouragement when they miss.

It's always easy to criticize when you you only hear one side of the story. I give Mark a lot of credit for responding and giving his side. None of us know for sure what the deal is with SCI, and chances are we will never know. It just doesn't matter. Usually the folks that are the first and loudest to criticize are the ones that are the most jealous.
I have been hunting for way more years than I want to think about and I can't really think of many animals where I could see their nuts
before I shot and some folks think he can shoot them to provoke a charge. Seems like folklore of not the right kind.
Lets give the poor guy a break and welcome him into the fold. There have been enough crucifixtions. We don't need to fight among ourselves.

Welcome Mark, we look forward to your posts and hopefully pictures of your adventures that we can only hope to go on one day.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Mike H.:
It's always easy to criticize when you you only hear one side of the story. I give Mark a lot of credit for responding and giving his side. None of us know for sure what the deal is with SCI, and chances are we will never know. It just doesn't matter. Usually the folks that are the first and loudest to criticize are the ones that are the most jealous.
I have been hunting for way more years than I want to think about and I can't really think of many animals where I could see their nuts
before I shot and some folks think he can shoot them to provoke a charge. Seems like folklore of not the right kind.
Lets give the poor guy a break and welcome him into the fold. There have been enough crucifixtions. We don't need to fight among ourselves.

Welcome Mark, we look forward to your posts and hopefully pictures of your adventures that we can only hope to go on one day.

I agree, for the good of our way of life, we should keep public infighting to a minimum.

However, in as discreet a fashion as possible, we must rid our sport of any and all yahoos, imbeciles, criminals, scum bags and any other elements who are likely to lead the public to perceive our activities as unacceptable.

Politicians make the rules according to the moods of the general public. If we are still able to shoot buff in ten years time it will be because the public allows us to do so. Therefore, we need to get our collective heads out of our collective arses and pay serious attention to Public Relations.

Anyone in our community who reduces the chances of me being able to continue hunting is my enemy. Whilst Mark has used contrived sensationalism to feather his own nest by selling films he has done jack for our image with the electorate.

If Mark wants to continue hunting discreetly for his own pleasure in the manner that he has chosen I say fine, as long as game, staff and clients (in that order) do not suffer unduly.

However, if he keeps publicizing activities which only an idiot would consider inoffensive to the general public, I say selfish buffoon, because he hurts our cause.

The electorate is judge and jury on all things and this man makes us all look guilty of a crime for which the sentence is the removal of a way of life.

Thank you Milo. You have evinced my concerns much better than I did.

If somebody bought all of his videos and made them required viewing at USFWS next week; care to hazard a guess how long that would take to affect the bringing of trophy DG animals into the US?

regards,

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I see that Mr. Sullivan claimed that "There are two kinds of buffalo; those that run and those that charge."
"Ninety-five percent of all wounded buffalo fall into the first category. Those that run will never charge." That leave 5% who fall into the “charger” category I calculate. I also take from reading in Context that Mr. Sullivan means “wounded” buffalo in the above statistical analysis.

Saeed: you say "Having shot quite a few buffalo, my experience has been the exact opposite of what Mark claims."

Please explain. By the way; I have never seen a Sullivan video or hunted Cape Buffalo so I have no platform other than reading comprehension to stand on.

best regards,
dmw

I have hunted with PHs who have had a combined experience of well over a 100 years. All of them together, have had no more than a handful of buffalo charges.

I am talking about real honest to goodness PHs. Not showmen.

Mark Sullivan, on the other hand, seems to get every second buffalo to charge.

That, in my book, translates to not just him getting the most incapable, incompetent, clients who have no business going hunting. But, he really should not be guiding paying hunters. A clients pays his dues to go and hunt. On extremely rare occasions, the PH might have to finish a wounded animal.

But to make this a regular occurance, Mark must do something drastically wrong.

And just as we seem to have an overwhelming support for him against SCI behaviour towards him, we do seem to have an awful lot of abhorance to what he claims his way of hunting.

"...I love the confrontation. I seek it. I enjoy a fight to the death..."

The above statement is one of many in his post, that, to me at least, defies any logical explanation of a rational individual. His post above has so many contradictions one can drive several Mack trucks through it.

I don't think we have heard the end of either of these two sad sagas.

The one with SCI, hopefully, they will come out and explain to their memebrs why they have banned him. Something he certainly deserves, and CSI HAS to do to clear the extremely bad situation they have put themselves in.

The second one of Mark Sullivans way of so called "hunting".

I don't think we have heard the whole story yet. There are far too many unsavoury rumours making the rounds in Tanzania about him. And even if a some of them are true, they certainly don't paint him in a good light at all.

Again, they are only rumours, and just like all the rumours we have heard about the unsavoury behaviour of some of the top brass of SCI, some of these rumours tend to be proven correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Mark Sullivan, on the other hand, seems to get every second buffalo to charge.

That's totally unfair. Out of the bunch of 5 that he spoke of earlier, the ones where he held fire for his "experiment", not a one charged. That none were recovered is irrelevant.

Apparently letting the incompetent clients decide which way their buffs wanted to die ain't always what it's cracked up to be. And not for nothing, but there seems to be something of a contradiction to me. If Mr. Sullivan feels so strongly about the whole in-your-face experience style, why did he give the go-ahead for his clients to shoot at the distance he speaks of ("All shots were standing broadside shots under 100 yards")?

After watching his video's there should be no secrets as to how he hunts. If you dont like it,which I dont, dont hunt with him !!.

I prefer to hunt and enjoy the experience of Buffalo not be in costume and part of a three ring circus.

Cheers Neale.

SCI has a reputation for tolerating all sorts of shenanigans from outfitters who exhibit as long as they donate the requisite amount of money or hunts. I find it hard to believe Mark Sullivan was banned from exhibiting for no reason at all. Whatever you may think about SCI, it would seem they were trying to do some house cleaning.

Look at all the BS and insults Mark had to take over the years,all not true.No matter what Mark Sullivan says some people will not change there mind about Mark Sullivan which is fine that also goes for the people who like and support Mark Sullivan, I and many others do,as for the "showman"comment,that means all hunting vidoes feature showman..

Well I don't think I've shot as many buffalo as you Saeed. I've only shot 24 and most have expired after a decent first shoot and one insurance shot. Eight of them have not required an insurances shot at all.

I differ with Mark in at I look at it this way. There are two kinds of buffalo. The ones you kill with the first shot and the ones you don't kill with the first shot.

A first shot kill is:
A) When you walk up to it and find it's on its last breath. You then enjoy the death bellow momentarily and finish him off.
B) When you kill the buffalo so instantly there is no death bellow.

Not killing it with the first shot means:
A) A non-fatal first shot or a complete miss that requires multiple shots, and sometimes hours of follow-ups and perhaps a charge.

My percentages are not as good as Mark's because only one buffalo in which I made a crappy first shot, has resulted in a charge. Maybe he's able to pick the ones in the herd that are the chargers instead of the runners. I'm not sure.

So you write---
"Mark Sullivan, on the other hand, seems to get every second buffalo to charge."

Well keep in mind, the ones that make his highlight movies are only the best of the best from that particular hunting season. The vast majority of his client buff hunts result in no charges. Of course, he wants the charges in his movies, because of the excitement factor and they generate sales.

He's proud of his buffalo charges because of the near death experience he craves. I on the other hand am not proud to admit I had a buffalo charge me, because it's an indication that I did not make a lethal first shot. Or in Sullivan logic, perhaps I'm just shooting the runners.

I'd be interested in knowing your percentages---that is charges versus non charges. I know you can shoot extremely well, I've seen your videos.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I see that Mr. Sullivan claimed that "There are two kinds of buffalo; those that run and those that charge."
"Ninety-five percent of all wounded buffalo fall into the first category. Those that run will never charge." That leave 5% who fall into the “charger” category I calculate. I also take from reading in Context that Mr. Sullivan means “wounded” buffalo in the above statistical analysis.

Saeed: you say "Having shot quite a few buffalo, my experience has been the exact opposite of what Mark claims."

Please explain. By the way; I have never seen a Sullivan video or hunted Cape Buffalo so I have no platform other than reading comprehension to stand on.

best regards,
dmw

I have hunted with PHs who have had a combined experience of well over a 100 years. All of them together, have had no more than a handful of buffalo charges.

I am talking about real honest to goodness PHs. Not showmen.

Mark Sullivan, on the other hand, seems to get every second buffalo to charge.

That, in my book, translates to not just him getting the most incapable, incompetent, clients who have no business going hunting. But, he really should not be guiding paying hunters. A clients pays his dues to go and hunt. On extremely rare occasions, the PH might have to finish a wounded animal.

But to make this a regular occurance, Mark must do something drastically wrong.

And just as we seem to have an overwhelming support for him against SCI behaviour towards him, we do seem to have an awful lot of abhorance to what he claims his way of hunting.

"...I love the confrontation. I seek it. I enjoy a fight to the death..."

The above statement is one of many in his post, that, to me at least, defies any logical explanation of a rational individual. His post above has so many contradictions one can drive several Mack trucks through it.

I don't think we have heard the end of either of these two sad sagas.

The one with SCI, hopefully, they will come out and explain to their memebrs why they have banned him. Something he certainly deserves, and CSI HAS to do to clear the extremely bad situation they have put themselves in.

The second one of Mark Sullivans way of so called "hunting".

I don't think we have heard the whole story yet. There are far too many unsavoury rumours making the rounds in Tanzania about him. And even if a some of them are true, they certainly don't paint him in a good light at all.

Again, they are only rumours, and just like all the rumours we have heard about the unsavoury behaviour of some of the top brass of SCI, some of these rumours tend to be proven correct.

Saeed,
I agree with your first comment fully.

On the second, about SCI owing an explanation to MS, I disagree. I ran a wildlife art show for a number of years. We invited artists and selected who we wanted. We had 3 entrants for every artist selected. We had one nationally known artist that sold a lot of art but was a real thorn in our side (complained a lot and treated the staff poorly). I simply did not invite him back. I got a lot of questions about "why" but chose to say that, as a benevolent dictatorship, I choose who I choose and answer to no one.

Same with a hard working employee that causes problems. I let them go and tell them to "go forth and do well" but you cannot work here any longer. I offer no explanations as that would introduce a debate. I need no debate for making my decisions.

SCI is accountable to a board and to the membership. As with any organization, by law, the board makes the rules and does as it wishes with no explanation needed. The membership can rise up and kick them out if they choose to but the board has no requirement to explain its actions.

If I were on SCI's board, my comment would be - "We have chosen other exhibitors. You are not one of them." End of story.

You do the same on AR. You make the rules and are accountable to yourself. Your rules are broad but should not be violated. When you decide, it is finished. That same with SCI.

The one issue that has not been addressed is that when not if ( because it will happen someday ) Mark comes out on the short end of the stick during one of these encounters his client is instantly on his own in reguard to his own safety which should be the main consideration and is the MAIN responsibility of the PH.

I think we spend too much time thinking about Mark. I think that may be his goal.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I see that Mr. Sullivan claimed that "There are two kinds of buffalo; those that run and those that charge."
"Ninety-five percent of all wounded buffalo fall into the first category. Those that run will never charge." That leave 5% who fall into the “charger” category I calculate. I also take from reading in Context that Mr. Sullivan means “wounded” buffalo in the above statistical analysis.

Saeed: you say "Having shot quite a few buffalo, my experience has been the exact opposite of what Mark claims."

Please explain. By the way; I have never seen a Sullivan video or hunted Cape Buffalo so I have no platform other than reading comprehension to stand on.

best regards,
dmw

I have hunted with PHs who have had a combined experience of well over a 100 years. All of them together, have had no more than a handful of buffalo charges.

I am talking about real honest to goodness PHs. Not showmen.

Mark Sullivan, on the other hand, seems to get every second buffalo to charge.

That, in my book, translates to not just him getting the most incapable, incompetent, clients who have no business going hunting. But, he really should not be guiding paying hunters. A clients pays his dues to go and hunt. On extremely rare occasions, the PH might have to finish a wounded animal.

But to make this a regular occurance, Mark must do something drastically wrong.

And just as we seem to have an overwhelming support for him against SCI behaviour towards him, we do seem to have an awful lot of abhorance to what he claims his way of hunting.

"...I love the confrontation. I seek it. I enjoy a fight to the death..."

The above statement is one of many in his post, that, to me at least, defies any logical explanation of a rational individual. His post above has so many contradictions one can drive several Mack trucks through it.

I don't think we have heard the end of either of these two sad sagas.

The one with SCI, hopefully, they will come out and explain to their memebrs why they have banned him. Something he certainly deserves, and CSI HAS to do to clear the extremely bad situation they have put themselves in.

The second one of Mark Sullivans way of so called "hunting".

I don't think we have heard the whole story yet. There are far too many unsavoury rumours making the rounds in Tanzania about him. And even if a some of them are true, they certainly don't paint him in a good light at all.

Again, they are only rumours, and just like all the rumours we have heard about the unsavoury behaviour of some of the top brass of SCI, some of these rumours tend to be proven correct.

Saeed,
I agree with your first comment fully.

On the second, about SCI owing an explanation to MS, I disagree. I ran a wildlife art show for a number of years. We invited artists and selected who we wanted. We had 3 entrants for every artist selected. We had one nationally known artist that sold a lot of art but was a real thorn in our side (complained a lot and treated the staff poorly). I simply did not invite him back. I got a lot of questions about "why" but chose to say that, as a benevolent dictatorship, I choose who I choose and answer to no one.

Same with a hard working employee that causes problems. I let them go and tell them to "go forth and do well" but you cannot work here any longer. I offer no explanations as that would introduce a debate. I need no debate for making my decisions.

SCI is accountable to a board and to the membership. As with any organization, by law, the board makes the rules and does as it wishes with no explanation needed. The membership can rise up and kick them out if they choose to but the board has no requirement to explain its actions.

If I were on SCI's board, my comment would be - "We have chosen other exhibitors. You are not one of them." End of story.

You do the same on AR. You make the rules and are accountable to yourself. Your rules are broad but should not be violated. When you decide, it is finished. That same with SCI.

If I were on SCI's board, my comment would be - "We have chosen other exhibitors. You are not one of them." End of story.

You do the same on AR. You make the rules and are accountable to yourself. Your rules are broad but should not be violated. When you decide, it is finished. That same with SCI.

"Mark Sullivan or anyone else, is welcome to AR. He will get the same treatment as anyone else.

And unlike SCI, anyone who is banned gets to know exactly why he is going to be banned."

Now THAT is a democratic approach! - SCI take note!

Im surprised that the people here who support Mark Sullivan arent banned on this site(AR),this is getting to be rediculous.SCI gave Mark no explanation at all,what if it happened to one of you,someone who slandered you and made BS about you..........

quote:

Originally posted by SableTrail:
Well I don't think I've shot as many buffalo as you Saeed. I've only shot 24 and most have expired after a decent first shoot and one insurance shot. Eight of them have not required an insurances shot at all.

I differ with Mark in at I look at it this way. There are two kinds of buffalo. The ones you kill with the first shot and the ones you don't kill with the first shot.

A first shot kill is:
A) When you walk up to it and find it's on its last breath. You then enjoy the death bellow momentarily and finish him off.
B) When you kill the buffalo so instantly there is no death bellow.

Not killing it with the first shot means:
A) A non-fatal first shot or a complete miss that requires multiple shots, and sometimes hours of follow-ups and perhaps a charge.

My percentages are not as good as Mark's because only one buffalo in which I made a crappy first shot, has resulted in a charge. Maybe he's able to pick the ones in the herd that are the chargers instead of the runners. I'm not sure.

So you write---
"Mark Sullivan, on the other hand, seems to get every second buffalo to charge."

Well keep in mind, the ones that make his highlight movies are only the best of the best from that particular hunting season. The vast majority of his client buff hunts result in no charges. Of course, he wants the charges in his movies, because of the excitement factor and they generate sales.

He's proud of his buffalo charges because of the near death experience he craves. I on the other hand am not proud to admit I had a buffalo charge me, because it's an indication that I did not make a lethal first shot. Or in Sullivan logic, perhaps I'm just shooting the runners.

I'd be interested in knowing your percentages---that is charges versus non charges. I know you can shoot extremely well, I've seen your videos.

Mark,

I have never had a single charge, neither has a PH who has been hunting continously for 35 years, except once. And that was an old cow which they never saw before.

Neither have other PHs I have hunted with, except may be a handful between them.

As far as they were concerned, getting charged meant they have failed in their job.

We tried to work out what percentage of the buffalo we shot were killed with one shot, and I think we arrived at over 70%.

Thanks Saeed for the through response. I understand your posistion in the matter better. I would state, having no Africa experience at all but some just living life, that one who lives life that way, "...I love the confrontation. I seek it. I enjoy a fight to the death...", usually finds a way to fulfill it. Maybe Mr. Sullivan has found it in the way he hunts Cape buffalo, quite possibly even creating the risk without consciously knowing that he does. Again I have no right to speculate on that front either. Thanks for the forum and thanks for posting your hunting videos. I enjoy them greatly.
Best regards,
dmw

i must ask what is the difference in all of the elephant videos with everyone getting very close and pulling off brain shots and MS style of hunting. anyone can kill an elephant at 40 or 50 yards with no danger at all so why do most of us me included choose the dangerous way because it has a certain thrill to it. Some one mentioed paying a premium to hunt with MS and I have his prices any many of our members pay more than Mark charges. Jeff Rann and Jim Shockey add a bunch just to hunt with them, Mark does not. I for one am glad he has chosen to be a member of AR and I think even though Saeed does not like MS hunting style he is fair enough not to act like SCI. I have been on SCI's conservation board and i am not surprised they would ban MS for little if any reason and we all know how SCI operates.It is a club and is owned by the members and if enough membwers demand an explaination SCI should give it. If the members get together those few guys would be put out as MAC was.I would like to see them respond and if there really is no reason they will look like idiots and if there is a good reason we should know it.This is agreat forum for information on hunting and i think MS might be a very good person to have as he does have alot of experience

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
I have hunted with Ivan on a DG follow up and the only thing I can say is that he is very professional and and want the wounded animal dead asap.



Anton

Agreed, Ivan is very professional. But tell us who killed the buffalo Anton. Was it not the more circumspect and cautious hunter? Ha ha, sorry, couldn't resist it.

I admire a number of professional hunters for the way they hunt, but I don't think pushing animals for the cameras is such a grand plan. Besides the ethics issue, all it takes is one wrong move and a twisted ankle, or a misfire....Anything could happen at the crucial instant and the PH who pushes the envelope is not only putting his own life in danger. It is irresponsible. PH's are called professional for a reason. I agree with the comments that Sullivan's videos are all about the kill and feature little of the hunt. I watched 2 of his videos years ago and they disturbed me. I don't think they benefit hunting at all - they only shed our worthy tradition in a poor light. Simply because they are not about hunting but killing. I believe Mr Sullivan is confused as to what hunting is all about. After reading his post, my opinion of his hunting methods remains unchanged. Yeah, and to question the courage of others he doesn't even know....Where does that come from? And his detractors get gunned down for questioning his seriously questionable practices. Come on, give me a break.'All the Mark Sullivan haters'? Jeez, this guy is carrying a big chip around - hate is a strong word. I'm sure nobody hates him, some can just see through the bullshit and have issues with the way he operates. Finally, I would suggest to Mr Sullivan that he takes his clients to the range for some shooting practice before they go buffalo hunting.

Cheers, David

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
The one issue that has not been addressed is that when not if ( because it will happen someday ) Mark comes out on the short end of the stick during one of these encounters his client is instantly on his own in reguard to his own safety which should be the main consideration and is the MAIN responsibility of the PH.

Exactly, well said.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Bloody hell!

We actually have hero worship here!

How amazing!

That comment is spot on; however, it is not Mark that the sycophants are playing up to.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Bloody hell!

We actually have hero worship here!

How amazing!

That comment is spot on; however, it is not Mark that the sycophants are playing up to.

Best comment on any of these MS threads....maybe ever.

Having never seen any of Mr. Sullivan's videos, I just watched a few clips on youtube. If nothing else the man is a fine shot and looks to be very cool under pressure. I only wish him the best and hope that his style does not bite him in the ass .

I just hope that when the law of averages catches up with Mark Sullivan he is the one in the wheelchair or grave, not his poor client...

Rich
DRSS

quote:

I began my professional hunting career in Tanzania in 1990 at the age of 40. Then as now; I go about my business one day at a time.

Mark Sullivan is 60 years old according to his statement. This is the only item in all of these MS threads that suprised me. I always thought he was younger.

I have no desire to hunt with Mark, but for different reasons. When hunting in Africa my preference would be the PH to be from Africa. I can hunt with Americans any time in the states. No slight against anybody's ability, it is just my preference.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have never had a single charge, neither has a PH who has been hunting continously for 35 years, except once. And that was an old cow which they never saw before.

Neither have other PHs I have hunted with, except may be a handful between them.

As far as they were concerned, getting charged meant they have failed in their job.

We tried to work out what percentage of the buffalo we shot were killed with one shot, and I think we arrived at over 70%.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have hunted with PHs who have had a combined experience of well over a 100 years. All of them together, have had no more than a handful of buffalo charges.

I am talking about real honest to goodness PHs. Not showmen.

Mark Sullivan, on the other hand, seems to get every second buffalo to charge.

That, in my book, translates to not just him getting the most incapable, incompetent, clients who have no business going hunting. But, he really should not be guiding paying hunters. A clients pays his dues to go and hunt. On extremely rare occasions, the PH might have to finish a wounded animal.

But to make this a regular occurance, Mark must do something drastically wrong.

I'm incredulous that so many experienced hunters of dangerous game feign bewilderment as to how Mark Sullivan manages to film his many buffalo charges. Study his videos and you will observe:

1) None of his clients fire from shooting sticks. On the other hand, it seems that the majority of Cape Buffalo hunters, including the likes of Saeed, Boddington, and Moja (at least in most cases I've seen), use them to steady their aim. Sullivan shuns their use - and the consequence is not hard to figure: Fewer accurate and killing first shots. Shooting off-hand with a heavy double rifle with open sights (as many of his clients use) I believe goes a long way to explain why so many of them don't place lethal first shots.

2) Rather than follow-up on a wounded buffalo and firing the moment it is spotted – and as often as is required –Sullivan does something altogether different. He locates the buff and deliberately maneuvers around until he can approach it such that the wounded animal can see him and his client approach. In his own words, Sullivan then proceeds to 'invade the buffalo's space' until it either runs or charges. Since Saeed and most PHs (including mine) never approach a wounded buffalo in this manner, and instead try to kill it from a distance and in most cases from behind, its no surprise that they rarely see a charge.

3) Despite these 'tactics', I doubt seriously that Sullivan has a high percentage of charges each year. My guess would be that he probably encounters as few as a couple and perhaps as many as four charges per season (again, total speculation on my part, but based on the number of charges depicted in movies spanning a couple of decades). After two or three seasons Sullivan likely finds that he has sufficient footage to produce his next video. Regardless, whether it's Sullivan or Boddington or Moja or Charlton, any of the folks that film and sell videos are going to edit out the less exciting or interesting hunts and only include those that will sell to their market. One would have to be deliberately obtuse to assume that most of Sullivan's buffalo hunts result in a charge simply because most of the hunts on his videos depict them.

You may not like Sullivan for the way he hunts, or how he presents himself on tape, or for the way he combs his hair. Hell, I've pointed out the issues I have with him. But don't demean the discussion by pretending to be flummoxed over bogus issues like this. I'm certainly no expert, and my buffalo hunts pale in comparison to the number many on this board have under their belts, but it doesn't take a professional hunter to understand how Sullivan produces so many charges on his videos - all it takes are a pair of eyes and a measure of objectivity.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
First , I am glad Mark came on. Secondly, I have hunted with and filmed for Mark. Next, I think SCI owes him , and the membership if MS approves , an explanation of their charges against him. Now... I have seen the videos, read the book , and followed the MS threads on AR. While I appreciate the majority of Marks remarks and fully believe he means them ( and lives and hunts by them) I do question some of the letters statements. Like Mark ,I am a very direct guy. Mark takes, unlike his earlier statement, quite a few cheap shots at folks who do not share his style of hunting, rifle choices,gear (example :" ladies doubles, bino bras, shooting shoulder pads in practice) etc.. These do offend, intended or not. Words like "coward' also are offensive when aimed at guys who are not ready or able to do battle with their life on the line against dangerous game at 10 feet. Mark, hunt your style, which you do very well, but stop with the cheap shots at the less experienced, skilled, or steady. You have also brought Craig B. into some pretty unflattering language, in print no less, and like so many here talking about you, you have NEVER hunted with him. Can't have it both way Mark. On the other hand, I have hunted with you BOTH , have shot bad stuff of my shoes with you both , and respect the ability of each of you even though your styles and and feelings could not be more opposite. Not many guys here, if any, have my unique look into the situation. Food for thought at least Mark. But with that said, I do welcome you to the forum, am glad that you are headed to your beloved Tanzania where we had such fun, and hope your season will be both safe and successful. Also think you deserve a straight answer from SCI.
Men of AR, we can all be better behaved at times and should be. Emotions can run high, and do, and there are some TYPE A fella's who roost here daily. Lets give each other respect when it's called for, and temper our tirades with more fact than feelings at time. And I will try and take my own advise. Glad Mark had his say.

Really good points and I think you have hit on something that I never previously considered simply because of my personal perspective. For me, when interpreting the written words without my other interpersonal connections to the message it is easily received and interpreted quite differently.

Mark too has ribbed me about the caliber choices of some of my doubles but there was always an ensuing conversation and discussion so I never internalized the sting of the ladies doubles comment. Even though I have heard it and also read it too.

I have hunted with brakes at times in my hunting lifetime and have come to the conclusion that they are not the correct piece of equipment by default for many hunting situations. Having used them, I never felt the personal sting of those comments either. Though some of my rifles still have them on or off at given times based upon what I want to utilize to make recommendations.

I can honestly say I have never used a "bino bra" as I was always an under the weak arm kind of guy. Mark's style of delivering this particular message is not my personal style. The message I believe he tries to make after pages of commentary is if you are going to hunt offensively and try to approach game to allow a charge, your equipment should never be where it could interfere in your ability to shoot. I can't say that I disagree with the distilled message.

I like Craig and he has been gracious to help me in many ways both personally and professionally. Craig is highly respected by many including myself. I too agree that disparaging comments can easily lead a message astray from the intended purpose and often do nothing more than leave hard feelings. There is nothing worse than to push yourself back from a keyboard and later think," I really should not have said that as I did."

"Lets give each other respect when it's called for, and temper our tirades with more fact than feelings at time. And I will try and take my own advise." I think this is good advice Dave, and I will certainly work to follow it. I too am glad Mark came and posted and I believe SCI owes him an explanation and an opportunity for rebuttal.

Just an observation from someone who has no experience what so ever in Africa or with DG.

I applaud Mark Sullivan for his letter, but I do question all the words of welcome from a group who has predominantly in the past been so anti MS as to be ludicrous.

Does a person composing and posting a well worded and thought out letter absolve them completely from all of the activities that seemingly has caused the past animosity toward this individual?

I am glad to see so many folks so willing to forget the past and welcome a new member, but I am doubly glad to see people such as JudgeG and Saeed and a few others, openly speak their mind, and share their experiences about the topic such as DG chrges and their frequency.

Mr.Sullivan I welcome you to the AR family and appreciate your explanation of things as you see them or have experienced them.

I would advise you not to take all the words of welcome too much to heart as folks on this site and others like it, have a tendency to be fickle.

JMO.

quote:

Anyone in our community who reduces the chances of me being able to continue hunting is my enemy. Whilst Mark has used contrived sensationalism to feather his own nest by selling films he has done jack for our image with the electorate.

If you honestly think that Mark Sullivan's videos are going to significantly contribute to closing Buffalo hunting in Africa you are sadly mistaken. Anti hunters hate hunters and killing regardless if you run it down and shoot it between the eyes in a charge 2 min after the first shot or if you sit on our ass and eat a sandwich for 30 min waiting for it to bleed out.

Our PC world is against us. Hunters are looked at like cave men. They promote Whale Wars and all this animal rights BS. While they smack down a burger at their favorite hang out.

Our battle is far beyond a controversial video from a PH who as far as we can tell is not breaking any laws.

It starts with the pigs that go out shooting and leave garbage all over the place, Hunters that cant kill game cleanly and leave them hobbling and wounded for the public to see and slob hunters that cant follow the simplest of hunting regulations or common sense courtesy around the public.

It is a personal ethics issue. Not unlike the Lion hunts in SA, Leopards over bait or by dog, and on and on and on. If you don't like it don't participate. Just like if you don't like hunting don't ban it just don't participate.

quote:

2) Rather than follow-up on a wounded buffalo and firing the moment it is spotted – and as often as is required –Sullivan does something altogether different. He locates the buff and deliberately maneuvers around until he can approach it such that the wounded animal can see him and his client approach. In his own words, Sullivan then proceeds to 'invade the buffalo's space' until it either runs or charges. Since Saeed and most PHs (including mine) never approach a wounded buffalo in this manner, and instead try to kill it from a distance and in most cases from behind, its no surprise that they rarely see a charge.

Most buffalo that we have had to follow would take off as soon as they see or hear you approach. In fact, I would guess ALL that are able to run would do so too.

Most buffalo tend to run into some area to hide.

How come MS buffalo tend to be right in the open for a charge to be induced?

How come we don't see him following them in long grass or thickets?

I suspect might have had a wounded buffalo charge him originall.

Then the Hollywood mentality took over.

Then he actively got involved into making buffalo charges so he can have his rediculous "I let the buffalo decide how he wants to die"

This I suspect has lead him to try all sorts of tricks, which we are not privy too yet.

The poor buffalo did not want to die, one way or the other. YOU as a hunter have made that decision. And I thought it was our responssibility to make sure he dies as quickly as we can make it.

He claims he "seeks danger".

If that is true, he might try to out run a freight train or something silly like that.

Watching a wounded buffalo lying in front of you IN THE OPEN with a rifle in your hand is not facing danger.

Anyone who can shoot accuraterly would equate that to shooting a fish in a barrel.