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And that's the truth | |||
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This is UNBELIEVABLE!!! There are people out there that watch Cricket on TV?  | |||
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If I can't find a TV and am online I watch the live updates! Incredible match today.... That is, test match that ended today | |||
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was a great match went to the wire but eht 1st test was even better for me was 22 for 7 at one stage "Buy land they have stopped making it"- Mark Twain | |||
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I would never have believed it if I hadn't seen it | |||
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Adam, your silence is deafining. The above quote from you reminds me of a child with his fingers stuck in his ears yelling "lalalalalalalala I CANT HEAR YOU lalalalalalalala". Your unwillingness to accept any responsibility for this fiasco and the fact that you place the blame squarely on your hunters shoulders speaks volumes about your character and integrity IMO if you or your associates utilize this free platform to book hunts and generate income for your business you should at least have the courtesy to answer the tough questions when they arise. | |||
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Great statement. When you are hunting animals you are not familiar with you hire the services of an expert to "Guide" you. Been there done that!!
You should assume no blame for this. We hire professional hunters and pay them for their expertise in judging trophies and to keep us safe and within the law. You should pay NOTHING for that Elephant. [QUOTE] Adam is not happy with me for bringing this to AR [/QUOTE Really? No, Really?? . | |||
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Jason, I may be wrong, but I believe the Lacey Act covers the acquisition of animal or plant parts illegally. Once AG had shot the trophies, he had "acquired them". There is also the matter of the Elephant potentially being a cow taken on a bull license, the bushbuck shot from a boat (I would still like to hear from someone who knows if that is actually illegal), there has also been some discussion of how the kudu was shot? As far as the buffalo, since it was not recovered, I do not know if that would fit into the Fed's frame of a violation. None the less, I would think if the Fed's are reading this, I would think it highly likely that AG should expect a visit.
Guys, I do not know AG from Adam, nor do I wish him any ill will, but I have news for you; Our Federal Government doesn't give a rats ass that "he didn't know", or his "PH should have told him". They will prosecute this case just the same if they can get charges to stick, I have personally seen them start an investigation over far less than what has been admitted to in this and the Hunt Report thread. | |||
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505 I could be wrong(I often am), but I believe the Lacey act requires the animal cross state lines(such as when imported). You make great points on the bushbuck and kudu. I don't think the Lacey act could/would cover the buffalo as it was not recovered and therefore can't "cross state lines". If AG was stupid/dishonest enough(thankfully he is not) to import tusks that are not his, he and both Wayne and Adam(if Adam did act as a go between) would be subject to prosecution. As far as shooting from the boat, IIRC Zim law states that no animal can be taken within XXX hundred yards of any waterway(even if it is dry). I could be wrong on this, but that was what I was told some time ago by a PH. If this is correct, then this rule is broken all the time and I don't think it is a big secrete. I would like to know how Zim Parks might come down on Wayne and Tim for all the violations. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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IF A FEW DOLLARS CHANGE HANDS, ZIM PARKS WILL NOT COME DOWN ON ANYBODY. remember these are the same people allowing ration hunts to be sold to visiting sport hunters and apparently issue the necessary paperwork for trophy export, although that issue is unclear. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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For the record, I was posing this as a question and in no way an indictment of All Gone nor Adam Clements. Regardless of mistakes made by all parties involved, there are only 2 villians in this story and they are known here as Outfitter and PH. ___________________________________________________________________________________ Give me the simple life; an AK-47, a good guard dog and a nymphomaniac who owns a liquor store. | |||
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Adam, This is the second time I am asking this. Do you blame Richard for this debacle? Do you own any of this? By your own admission you knew that the PH Tim was a liability yet you still booked the hunt. It was not Richards responsibility to make sure that Wayne was hunting with him, it was yours! I also find it curious that you even mentioned to Richard about Wayne substituting the ivorys for him. Sounds to me like you were "testing the water" so to speak to see what kind of reaction you got from Richard. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you or your associates use this free platform to generate income for your business I feel you should answer any and all questions about hunts gone bad. Not doing so says a lot about your character and integrity. Drummond | |||
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Adam wants me to come forward and let you all know that i sold my 5 ele panels "skins" to the taxidermist for 126 dollars. They said they would buy them and put the money towards the dipping and packing bill. Adam seemed to be upset that i didn't state this massive amount of money i have made earlier. I received this invoice yesterday. They said they have a surplus of feet so did not want them. I told them i didn't want them either so i guess they will be discarded. I would also like to point out that i have asked Adam to come here and clear up a few points that he made or left out in his speech the other day. I talked to Wayne on the phone yesterday. He thinks this whole mess is my fault too! I won't go into details because he said he would call me back so we could discuss it further. AG NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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You may want to reconsider taking the $126. I am neither an attorney nor an expert on the Lacy act, but it seems to me that taking any benefit from the elephant that MAY have been illegally hunted could put you in a bad position legally. It I were in your position I would not take that risk for $126. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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I have not read this entire thing. I may have missed some issues. There is plenty of blame to go around here. Mistakes or worse on all sides. This entire post was not well thought out. Some people have definitely created themselves issues . It is never a good idea to admit to breaking the law in another country while hunting . This begs for Lacey Act problems which are now public ally documented. The elephant is an abomination. That picture should never have been posted. Talk about giving the antis ammunition, brother this does it. The entire way this has been handled almost seems designed to cause drama. I imagine this has no doubt made things worse. I am a big proponent of booking agents. My idea is that they keep me away from people like this. It appears it did not work for AG. After this, imagine my ex wife will ask for no more alimony before I would use ACST. I don't need this kind of grief on my vacations. However , I do applaud certain action taken by them. I hope this all gets resolved without criminal charges against AG. This has to be about the worst thing I have seen on AR. I hope everything gets resolved for all partied | |||
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All Gone, The suggestions on avoiding the Lacey Act violations if possible are serious. The $30k-$40k you lost on this deal will seem small if the Feds decide to look into this. | |||
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In one of the original post All Gone felt he was due half the trophy fee for the elephant. Many, including myself, thought that 100% should have been refunded. The full for the elephant trophy fee was $10,000.00. If you subtract the $3000.00 trophy fee for the wounded buffalo (regardless of what happened in the bush) the difference is $7000.00 Adam refunded his commission of $1800.00, the buff trophy fee of $3000.00, and $1500.00 for Tim's tip (which should have been zero). That totals to $6300.00. Which is only $700.00 different from 100% of the elephant trophy fee less the buffalo trophy fee and $1300.00 more than what AG wanted originally. It was a screwed up deal for AG with the only consolation of taking a couple of beautiful animals, especially the leopard. I still think Wayne should come to the table as he is the root cause of the problem. What is interesting is that I looked for reports on AR and Africa Hunting about the Sij area and they have been generally good to glowing until this hunt. Adam knew Tim was a lazy PH and he trusted Wayne to honor his agreement not to use him. There are several outfits that I would hunt with but not use a particular PH that works for them. So now if an operator has one bad PH we should not use them? I have seen a hell of a lot worse hunts offered by companies with PH's that have lost their licenses over illegal activities. Where was the lynch mob then? It seems as though AG got more in return than he originally asked, Adam returned his commission. If Wayne would come to the table with some refund it would be more than fair. Now it seems to have turned in to a campaign to smear ACST. | |||
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I would say the llamapacker ordeal and Blair is right up there for all time worst. | |||
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Well that, but not without some cause, at least. But now it seems more like an All Gone punshment tour, with the repeated threats of "Lacey Act" retribution for opening his mouth here on AR. That will certainly discourage others from identifying other bad actors! | |||
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I feel that Adam Clements had a golden opportunity to put this thing to bed early on had he admitted that he was at fault for trusting Wayne and Tim and taking some responsibility for this fiasco. Instead, he publicly hammers Richard and places the blame on him. Had he not come out and done this I feel that this thread would not have gotten the traction that it has. I think that most people here are realists and recognize that nobody is perfect and mistakes happen. How these mistakes are handled says a lot about a person or an organization. Blaming the hunter for everything IS NOT the way to handle these things. All Gone was using Adam Clements to avoid this very thing and if Adam were to just own up to it its a non issue. I'll even take it a step farther, if a mistakes happen and Adam had come on here and owned the fact that he never should have used Wayne and Tim and showed that he was going to bat for his client he could have earned some business. As Saeed pointed out early on in this thread, if the booking agent was going to bat for All Gone then mentioning his name would not hurt him at all. Adam had options as to how this was going to be handled and IMO he made the wrong choice. | |||
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Mike, We know you have had some good hunts with ACST, many have. It is natural to validate your judgement of choosing his services by defending him. No problem there. But I do have a problem with the way AC's name keeps popping up with hunters who have had horrible experiences. The latest is this shameful thread. Adam, what kind of a man leaks details in hopes of publically assasinating a potential rival? Sleaze ball politicians do, and now sleazy agents do as well. First was the veiled threat by Mark, then Dawnroar's shameful shill. Fine collection of tools you have there, Mr. Clements. AG, unfortunately you ran afoul of the worst of both worlds. Africa can be such a rewarding place to see and hunt. I hope you might give it another chance. Good luck with the outcome. Oh, and get a copy of your TR2 ASAP. "You only gotta do one thing well to make it in this world" - J Joplin | |||
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The tiny amount of money does not seem like a reason anyone would want you to post that here. Being that this may very well be illegal, maybe someone wanted to sell you down the river? I sure hope that I am wrong on that. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Jack, Thanks for being respectful as you always have been with me in the past. This is just one of those things we disagree on. I still feel the blame lays squarely on Wayne. He should have never changed the PH without telling Adam especially since Adam did not want Tim on his hunts. On my first trip to Tanzania I was adamant about the PH I was to hunt with. Zayne van der Merwe was the reason I went to Adam in the first place. I checked with Adam almost to the day I left to make certain Zayne was my PH. All Gone made some mistakes but he is the least culpable character in this whole mess. I have wondered why Adam books in the Sij area. It is not a bad area, but certainly not a premium area as compared to other areas he hunts or books. When you look at his Tanzania concessions they are pretty good to say the least, Mokore is his "main" guys in Zim (I feel they are among the best anywhere), he books for DuPloy in Zambia who is suppose to be top notch. Like I said in the previous post there have not been any bad reports on Sij that I have read, kind of what I expected, hard hunting, decent animals, decent accomodations. I suppose Adam is catering to a client that is looking for a less expensive hunt. If you price an elephant/buffalo/leopard/kudu/impala Zambezi Valley hunt your are looking at around $52,000 for day rates and trophy fees with a top line company. It is hard to expect the same level of trophy quality and service from a hunt costing a third less, but it should at the very least be acceptable. At least Adam refunded his commission, which is more than others have done. I will not say I agree with everything Adam has done, but it is his business and he will either pay the price or reap the rewards. BTW I still feel he runs a good company. If Wayne has any dignity he would refund the difference in the elephant/buffalo trophy fee. This would give AG a nice kitty to start saving for another hunt with the money he has already received from Adam. | |||
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I had someone ask me to not mention this so please correct me if I'm wrong? I may have made the wrong assumption. I felt it worthwhile to clarify for everyone's sake. Is it or is it not legal to give gifts of elephant hair bracelets such as in the above circumstances? | |||
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They ARE top notch!! ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I really don't feel i'm smearing ACST. All i ask is they take some of the blame. I'm tired of these guys acting like they walk down the path of perfection. I said i was willing to take 50% of the blame and these guys, WD and ACST can't even cumutatively take the other half. Whats wrong with that picture? It's not so much the money anymore, IMO it's the principal of the situation. If i was to get back anymore money i would give atleast half of it to charity especialy this time of year. The Wounded Warrior project is one of my favorites. AG NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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Except for the fact that they shoot a few lion similar to this ele calf...as Fujotupu stated...this ele was no different than a two year old lion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane, My suggestion would be that you not hunt with anyone you don't want to hunt with. Personally I would not hesitate to hunt with Johnny du Plooy. I found him to be an excellent PH, fun to be with, treated his staff with respect, and spent time after I bagged out giving my wife the experience of stalking game as if she were hunting. He may well have planted the seeds that will sprout another hunter. As I said, Johhny du Plooy is top notch. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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The above post read Du Plooy...no specification which of the family. And we all saw a Du Plooy with a two year old lion. And as Fujo stated and I agree...no different from this calf. For the record...I have never seen Johnny with a 2 year old lion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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From a legal aspect IT IS NOT. This subject should be well left alone as it might lead to hunters having second thoughts about wearing their legally acquired bracelet from their last hunt because it was inadvertently omitted in the paperwork. Some of our legal friends on the forum ought to part with some sage contribution to your question. | |||
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I know that legally taken CITES ivory can be left to someone in your will. I believe that legally taken CITES ivory can be given away.(This is important because it cannot be reexported. In other words you cannot take it with you if you move out of the US) One thing that I am in the dark on is how CITES treats ivory differently than other elephant products, such as elephant leather or hair. I know that Will is constantly selling his elephant leather wallets here in the classifieds. He has said that they are exempt from the CITES rules because they are "worked leather"(IIRC). Anyway, Will is not the type to do something like this without first making sure that he is following the letter of the law. So, I would think that elephant hair bracelets would be considered a "worked elephant product". After all, it is not just a handful of raw hair. And the bracelets are being given away, not sold. BTW, good luck trying to find this info on the CITES website. I have and I had no luck. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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It would be interesting to see who else books hunts for Wayne. In my experience, it is the rare outfitter that works with only one booking agent. So in the interest of fairness, before we castigate Adam further, it might be worthwhile to ask, "Could it have happened with another booking agent?" BTW, I have not booked a hunt with Adam. Came close once; but I have not. | |||
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Who put the discount hunt up that was mentioned a couple of pages ago and then pulled it? ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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My question to you Jason is can willed ivory be legally sold by the person the ivory was willed to? Thank you and sorry for the hi-jack. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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I'm less concerned with the fact that he booked it even though he admits that he was aware of the potential problems. What concerns me the most is how he piles blame upon the client, a client that had never been to Africa! The manner in which he has decided to handle this, at least to this point, is nothing short of ridiculous IMO | |||
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I will agree that blaming the client is totally counterproductive. People insert themselves into AGs place and ask "is this how I want to be treated?" The other thing to keep in mind re: the buffalo...would it have mattered one bit if he killed it with one shot? I think not. The best booking agent in the world just might turn out to be AR. The collective opinions and experiences of the members here are something I would trust more than any booking agent. | |||
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No. As I understand CITES ivory cannot be sold or traded. The bottom line is that there is to be NO GAIN in the transaction. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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This is my reply e-mail i sent to Adam a couple of days ago. I'm not going to show his, if he wants to he can. I have no reply to this one yet. Adam, I talked to Wayne today. He told me this was all my fault because i didn't call him after the ele fiasco. I said don't you think Tim should have said something about the ele. He said it wasen't Tims hunt it was your hunt. I said yes it was my hunt and you deciding that your meeting was more important than my hunt and you left a POS for a PH their for me on my very first once in a lifetime African safari. Plus you went back on your word with Adam that all his clients were to hunt with you. I told him that he stabbed you and i both in the back on that one. He said it wouldn't have made a difference and changed the subject again right away. Bottom line he took no responsibility whatsoever Adam. Thats the same thing you are doing. Trying to put this whole thing on me. I was willing to take half the blame Adam Clements and thought you would be man enough to take the other half but i guess not. You keep telling everyone that i should have called you as soon as i found out that Wayne was not to be my PH. Why didn't you tell me upfront the deal you had with Wayne? How long would that have taken you? Were you afraid that if you told me this that i would have thought that something was wrong with this outfit? Tell me how i am turning things around on AR, i'm not sure what you are talking about? You have your Dawnroar the lawyer whore go on in front of you, he did everything but introduce you to the crowd. You guys feel you have to gang up on me ? Really? Am i that big of a threat to you? I thought you said you didn't care what anybody said on AR. Adam, what i would like from you is to come on AR and tell everyone that you take half the blame for the communication breakdown about me not knowing the deal you had with Wayne and not telling me ahead of time. I would also like for you to admit there were problems with this outfitter in the past which i know there was. Please tell us how you forgot to tell accounting to not send tha ele trophy fee also. I would like you to tell everyone that the 3 or 4 contacts between us a week was not true. I was in contact with Jamie that much in your Lubbick office but but not you in the San Antonio office. You know as well as i do Adam that the only time you contacted me was after i called you first. I will let everyone know about the PM that Mark sent me. If he wants to put it all out there Adam i say lets do it, It's on! I am not going away Adam until this thing is resolved. I feel like i have been robbed of my first safari and i don't like it at all!! Richard NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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I for one would love to hear Adam's response to this. Also, I thought that Mark was NOT involved with this...what is the PM all about? | |||
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