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I think the Department of the Interior should declare Hein customers an endangered species. | |||
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Man, I can't believe I've gotten no takers on my "fire sale" of 450 Dakota bras, dies and that 3X leupold scope! jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Didn't ISS just buy a 450 Dakaota something? | |||
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Well, I received no response from the alternative email address I was sent, the personal phone number I was given has been disconnected and his listed phone number has a full mail box, as of this pm | |||
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When you lay a deposit you have at that point given someone one something for nothing,with hope of some return. Lets hypothetically turn the tables, how about the smiths giving customers a rifle or action(s)on part payment and lesuirely let the customers go overdue on final payment with no clear indication of when it will be made, one year,two, three,four? does really matter right?..  | |||
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I will try it out tomorrow at the Ford dealer. Here is my spiel:
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If you're going to try it, you might as well go for the equivalent of a custom rifle......find a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, or Mercedes dealership. Good luck!  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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At least these guys have something tangible to sell AND...you can test it out before you buy it!!  | |||
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We have a winner for the "least thought-through/shootaway impersonation" post of this entire thread, but I'll bite. Well then the gunsmith gets to keep the deposit and then turn around and sell the rifle for full price to another customer and keeps the deposit from the welcher. In our case, I'm out 5K and all I have to hold on to is my johnson. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Whoever Trax is just registered and his only 2 posts were on this one and the Satterlee thread-both about custom actions. Smelled like Greg Hein to me at first, but who knows. | |||
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I went to a car lot the other day. The salesman say's "Buy a truck from me today and you won't make your 1st payment for 6 full months!" I said " I hadn't ever bought a truck here before, how in the hell did you know that?"  Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I could see an escrow type account making sense here. The gunmaker knows the money is there yet he is not in possession of it. If he doesn't come through in an agreed upon time it is merely a little bit of paperwork and the money is back in the buyers pocket. Ken.... "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " - Ronald Reagan | |||
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 DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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That is my thinking as well. I can see both sides of the argument. There are plenty of tire kickers out there with no attention of purchasing. You must weed them out someway and asking for a deposit is one way. On the other hand the deposit doesn't need to be half which is what I put up to Hein. On the other side we are talking something totally custom and made to order and there has to be an easy to collect penalty on the customer if they change their mind due to no fault of the business. Bottom line is buyer beware. That is why older more established businesses can command a higher price. They have earned their reputations. There are deals out there but you can get burned. Those who have been in business know what things cost and they value and price their product accordingly. I am upset with Hein not because he has failed to deliver the product. Heck I knew I was taking a gamble giving a 50% deposit on a product that was still the in the beginning stages of development. That is an issue easily addressed by adults. What infuriates me about him is his failure to be honest and upfront. In other words to act like a man! All he needed to do, I think I speak for many of us here, is truthfully communicate the issues. Heck if you don’t have time to email or call everyone, simply make a post on AR. I think most of us here if approached would be patient with delays and issues that crop up. What you can’t do is tell people their actions are progressing nicely when in reality not a thing has been started on them. There is no place for outright lies if you expect to survive. Unfortunately Greg Hein chose the, lie and ignore it, and maybe it will go away route. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I still think that eventually everyone will get what they ordered. | |||
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Maybe true, but will they still be alive so they can use it? My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Wanna put your money where your mouth is? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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WTF? And you claim to be an attorney? I would sure love to hear you defend that position in a courtroom. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I can assure you that I am not associated with WFH in anyway and gladly not. Truth is I was at SCI over 3 years ago specifically looking to buy an quality action from someone. I spoke with WFH and got a bad vibe straight up. After some talk,I eventually walked away and decided never to return. Seems it was the right decision.  As far as my previously posted hypothetical scenario goes, the point I was trying to make was that there is a snowflakes chance in hell of an average guy getting something of high value delivered from a smith without prior full payment. I just thought it may be good idea for some of these smiths to give something out and then open endedly wait for what they were rightfully entitled to in return,in other words, to put the trust in a customer that the customer so often puts into them. Not likely that any of them would do it,right? yet they so lesuirely treat the customer who puts trust time and money in them, with contempt. Jorge, Dont take your frustrations out on me,But if you want to play by those smart ass rules thats fine by me,just remember I had the sense to not get involved with WFH. | |||
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I think that is exactly how Hein has treated us. Even now I am sure he is sitting and brooding and talking with friends and family and non of this is his fault. Its everyone's fault but his. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Well you must be psychic, or a woman to be that prescient, but I got news for you ACE. I gave Hein 5K up front with only a 1K balance outstanding plus I paid for the wood up front. IAnd the retainer I had to pay out for an attorney, more than covered the balance outstanding that I was ready to send him BEFORE delivery. How's THAT for stupid on my part? All he woul dhave had to do is answer his phone and or emails and we wouldn't be where we are today. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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You are confusing buying a product with buying a service. I'm a construction manager; using your logic my customers should pay me 100% prior to project mobilization and I should pay all my subs 100%. How fast is that building going to get built? The surest way to stall progress and guarantee financial problems on a project is to pay a subcontractor too soon. At that point he has no skin in the game and you are counting on his honesty and his concern for his reputation. (Two things that appear to be sorely lacking in this case.) This is not a dig at Jorge or any of the others who have been screwed by Hein. It appears to me that the result would have been the same no matter how much or little was paid up front in this case. I really hope everything works out for you guys. I hated it when I was looking around in the Classifieds and saw Jorge's 450 stuff for sale; he had been talking about how much he was looking forward to having that rifle for a long time here on AR. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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yeah, Jorge talked about that rifle like it was a child being adopted by he and his wife. On military pay six-grand is a deep hit. Any attorneys out there? Mechanics can file a lien on a vehicle if the work is done and they do not get paid, can these guys place a lien on Hein's machinery and tooling? I spoke with Peter Noreen at the Boise gunshow and he was sad to hear what is going on there. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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most mechanics lien statutes that I am familiar with deal with real estate only. The issue here is breach of contract. If someobdy provided some of the parts, such as wood, that would be added to the rifle, then there is also a bailment issue as well. | |||
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xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Lhook7, your missing my simple point, its clear smiths simply dont trust their customers enough to send a finished product out before final payment, yet they may stipulate you trust them with a large deposit before you see anything. bit of a one way street. What someone sensibly said some time ago about custom actions,was that, how about they start selling them when they actually have some to sell? , Then when you put your deposit down you know your at least starting off with a tangible item with its serial number on the receipt and a photo of the actual action to go with it. Its not too much to ask. In contrast to big promise money grabbing makers, I made enquiries about Surgeon receivers and Hagn receivers, they didnt ask for a deposit before manufacture,rather, they indicate when they anticipate the items to be ready and available and you make your choice as a potential customer from there. How simple and straight forward is that! As you and others have stated, and many would agree, trust and honesty is the big issue. There are folk out there that you can trust to deliver even if you pay the whole amount upfront and at the other end there are those you cannot trust regardless of how much you pay or when you pay it. And finally,the way I see it,businesses like WFH, Satterlee and the like, claim to offer both a product and a service, so im not confusing one with the other as you have stated. | |||
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Not true in all cases. While not a deep pile of money, I recently had a finished job sent to me, and contacted him to see how he wanted his money sent. Some people have real character. | |||
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I work in a service field, I make appointments and show up at a residence. At least once a week someone blows off the appointment without giving me notice, I show up and no one's home. I'm out the time and time is money. I usually get a call in a day or two with a lame excuse and wanting to know when I can reschedule, I tell them as soon as I receive a check for the missed appointment. The check rarely comes. It amazes me that people want me to trust them by showing up without money up front but they expect me to trust them to make good on my time. Maybe I should start asking for a 50% deposit before I leave the house. BTW, the only major custom work I've had done was having an English double restocked and restored. No money was requested up front but I put down 1/3 to soften the blow in the end. It took a little longer than expected but I was ready for that, some unseen problems reared their head. I'm happy I can call on this smith again when needed and have a good relationship with him. I was one of the guys in on MRC initial offering of 1999SA's. Again, it took longer than promised but those guys always answered the phone and kept us here informed. This current nonsense would ruin something that for me is supposed to be fun. I believe Forrest said that in another thread, by the time you get the mess sorted out the bad taste in your mouth would linger too long. | |||
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 He wasn't attempting to mass produce anything. His whole business was made to order customer rifles and actions. Therefore that would be no inventory. I think the issue isn't capitalization though I don't deny that is some type of issue. However he has produced actions, if you can produce one you can produce more. Why isn't Hein producing product? I think he is just not working due to reasons totally under his control Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Thank you Mr. Pollyanna! I own a manufacturing facility! We never require any down payment. Some of our customers are on a COD basis, but most are on a 30 billing cycle. This "It all works outover time" is pure Bull Shit. My 404 Jeffery projects took a 2 year nap up in Washington State. Two waisted years of one lie after another. By the time you realize that his not answering the phone or your emails is part of the "Big Lie" it's too late. He's doing something else. This crap of down payments and "Don't call me, I'll call you" is just plain, well we have a word for it in Texas, thievery! The only way these folks are going to get anything is filing suit. I got my parts and money back, but only after a Sheriff's Deputy stood in the man's front yard, called me and told me that he would answer the phone now! 22WRF you need to open a mission and try to save all of these "Lost Souls" of the poor, misunderstood and much malinged gunmakers who couldn't help themselves and resorted to stealing money from clients. They were just forced into a life of crime. It wasn't their fault! Thanks Polly! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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With all due respect to your opinions Saeed has repeated over and over again that AR is supposed to be a place where people can discorse about the issues without personally attacking the other person. Unless I am attacked first I don't attack the other's personal life, nor his profession, now his knowledge base. I think you guys ought to try the same. 1. Whether Hein is making "custom" actions or not, he advertized them as models. I assume he intended to sell more than one of each model during the life of his business. And when you come on line as a business, you hope to sell many models to propel your business forward. Anyone who has visited machine shops, and especially ones that make parts or actions, knows that it is much cheaper time wise to make quite a few parts from each set up than it is to make them one at a time. So, with all due respect Howard, I disagree with you. With regard to your operation Rusty, I don't know your operation. But if its anyting like ours, I am guessing that you sell to buyers who work for established corporate accounts and who send a Purchase Order, and whom your corporation has probaly qualified as a good credit risk by most likely checking with the customer's or your own bank. That is a far cry from a single person whom you have probably never even met before. You guys post as though you think I am sticking up for Mr. Hein. If so, you are wrong. I think the guy is a very bad businessman. But somebody has gotten his actions, and the report is that he is a great machinist or otherwise nobody would have ordered his actions. You can stay pissed off during the duration, which is not healthy, will keep your blood pressure up, and cause you go do things you woulnd't ordinarily do in your dealings with other folks. Or, you can believe that he is working on things and will eventually get them done. If you take that route you are out nothing more than you already are. | |||
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22WRF, I agree, you don't know my operation. We have personally met or know most our clients, or their representatives. If you feel you are being attacked because I dislike you trying to put a good spin on deceptive gunsmiths, who are taking other peoples' money and not producing a promised product, that sir is your problem, and it is still thievery! How long does it take you to get angry after someone steals something of yours? Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Rusty I have clients every month who don't pay me. Last year I had one file for bankruptcy that owed me $8000. This year I have had 2 that each owed me more than $3000. I have learned to just let it go because my doctor advised me that in type A presonalities there is a definite effect on increasing blood pressure, which over time can contribute to heart disease. My health is worth far more to me than money, and I don't have that much money. | |||
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Rusty I agree with you 100%......this guy sounds like a broken record and I'm starting to wonder if he doesn't sit down to pee. | |||
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Don`t mess with Texas  That Hein-guy is pulling legs here folks...I think somebody should pull out the bullwhip  DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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WRF, do you ever read what you type before you post here? What part of "THIEF" do you have trouble understanding. You are just the type of bleedin heart mother fucker that would try to defend the actions of some POS like Greg Hein, lets call a spade a spade,Greg Hein is a lier,cheat and a theif | |||
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Wow, there is a stunning amount of speculation and theorization with no basis in fact. Just to be clear, what you are saying is that Mr. Hein is running his own little pyramid scheme (which apparently you endorse), and that the disgruntled (former) customers who have come forward are somehow harming other customers by disrupting the cash flow on which Mr. Hein is depending? That delays happen is inevitable and understandable. That dishonestly and lack of communication seems to be the business strategy is despicable. To speculate on the reasons for such delays, to make excuses for dishonesty, and to place blame on those who canceled their orders due to that dishonesty is even more despicable yet. | |||
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Quite a bit of speculation in this post, and definitely an implication that by canceling (or avoiding) orders, some former customers are causing harm to other customers. By your own admission, you don't know what is going on at Hein. Most reasonable people would end the discussion there. | |||
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CAS II OKay, let me be clear. There is a difference between cause and effect. I have speculated that the EFFECT of this thread may be that no new money is coming into the Hein shop, thereby causing financing difficulties. And I have stated my basis for that speculation being experience in business, education, and experience in representing people who are in business. Are you calling me unreasonable? | |||
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The flaw in this reasoning.......and basically the semantics of this explanation.......is this statement: Because this thread caused future customers to stop ordering, thereby causing Mr. Hein's financing to go down the tubes. That's not financing. Financing for capitalization comes from professional lenders.......not from customer deposits. Professional lenders are in business to assess risk. Customers shouldn't have to if dealing with a reputable business. If this scenario is accurate......it's a spectacularly unsound business practice. And this thread is certainly more useful in preventing future customers from getting screwed than it is detrimental to the survival of the business. | |||
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