quote:

I just found that interesting concerning the Hornady Bullet.

Maybe it did not want to leave the nice warm barrel and threw out it's parachute?

Really...what do think caused that belated peak?

Seasons44

You are welcome, glad it helps some. RL33? Hmmmmm. New powders are good to look at for sure. We will see.

Doc

I have two more of these left here. Sam and I have been chatting about this, I have to get in the lab, measure those loads, before, and after, compare brass to hornady. We think maybe the brass is undersized, as when fired it has a bulge near the head of the case? This would cause low pressure readings, and erratic traces. I will also be shooting the other two to confirm, soon as I can. So hold on for now. Anyway, what are you doing with ammo that is loaded with "THAT" bullet? Shame!


Lane

I think you are correct, 95 Varget is on the list to do, we just have not got to it yet.
It might be an excellent choice? In fact, I would venture to say it will be at 93-95 grs? We will see.

Michael

quote:

I just found that interesting concerning the Hornady Bullet.

Maybe it did not want to leave the nice warm barrel and threw out it's parachute?

Really...what do think caused that belated peak?

Secondary Peaks? At one time was quite a mystery to me. When I first started working with the Pressure Trace system it was with 338s, 358s, 458s. Almost everything had ugly secondary peaks far beyond what the primary was. It nearly drove me insane! On those guns after great anguish and nashing of teeth, I figured out I did not have a proper strain gage connection on many of those! Changed the gage, got proper readings, MOST of the time.

Later after 1000s of rounds and load data strings, I began to learn that there could be REAL secondary peaks caused by certain things, in certain cartridges, with certain bullets. Sometimes powder related and how it burns in the barrel, sometimes very much bullet related, regardless of powder used, and sometimes I think introduced into the mix with fillers, as I believe we have seen with some powders in this 500 Nitro work. Some Powders/Fillers, not all Powder/fillers.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Hornady DGS introduces a secondary peak. Why? I really don't know for sure. About the only thing that I can come up with is it's slugging up somewhere along the way giving a bump just before exiting the barrel. Other than that, I don't know? That's just a guess as well.

Let me show you another recent trace I did with my 475 B&M-Yes, it's one of my 18 inch Winchester M70 WSM rifles, but the discussion here is the Hornady DGS.








As you note, same powder with the BBW#13 has no secondary peak! While the Hornady has a very pronounced secondary peak, exactly like the 500 Nitro factory ammo tested.

Now if you want to see some extremely serious secondary peaks take a look at this 470 Nitro Hornady DGS Factory Ammo tested!




Michael

More on Secondary Peaks!

Are Secondary Peaks Dangerous????

Answer, No, I don't believe they are, even the real ones that Peak total Said or stated pressures way out of proportion. First, if they were, I would have been blown to pieces long before now, and so would you! Oh Yes, You are getting these secondary peaks in pressures, you just don't know anything about it, and have probably never even heard of it before. It's not a very well known fact, as hardly anyone can come up with a proper true explanation for them, not even the experts, of which I am not one, but have talked to them extensively on the matter. While I am no expert, my opinion is just as good as theirs, as they don't know either! HEH...................

Real Secondary peaks can be caused again, the way the powder burns or does not burn completely before reaching barrel exit, or simply because of the bullet itself, or an introduced factor such as fillers with some powders. And quite possibly other reasons I have not thought of, or heard of as of yet.

Sometimes I get a secondary peak separate from all the other traces, 1 out of 3 or 5? The reason for this is Recoil gave the wire a jump. These peaks look different than other sharper secondary peaks, more of a gentle secondary, never getting above primary. Just from a jerk in recoil, or connection. Gotta hold that rifle tight when doing traces.

Here is another Hornady Factor example I did some years ago in 458 Lott. If Secondaries were critical, and or Dangerous, then my rifle and myself would not be here today! As you can see the Primary is well under any max pressures.




Please don't take it that I am picking on Hornady. Hornady DGS or FMJ is not the only bullet that gives secondary peaks like this. Swift A Frames give the same type secondary peak, every Swift I have ever tested does the same regardless of powder, cartridge, rifle, velocity or any other factor, here is an example;



Secondary Peaks are something interesting, if nothing else to identify what is causing it, if you can define why, at least we can understand the what. Whether a bullet, powder burn rate, and introduction of foreign matter, or just a jerk on the wire!

But I would not get too hung up on it either.

Michael

PRESSURES---------------------------------

Pressure is a mystery until it is not! I have been trying to unravel pressure for a long time now, and in some ways I have, some ways it's still a mystery to me. I think it's a mystery to everyone and it's hard to define. New methods of measuring pressure, like we are doing with strain gages, I think are top of the line. Older methods I don't think are any more reliable, or believable than any other method. I could be wrong, but I never get any straight answers from the experts who are supposed to know, so I will go my own way with it.

Now my way may not be the right way, it's just my way of thinking. It may not be right, might be close, could be full of crap to. So no arguments from me, agree or not.

Pressure is not as related to an individual cartridge as it is the platform in which it is being fired from. 45/70 is a perfect example of this, every loading manual ever made has 3-5 different levels for the 45/70, going from the old trapdoor right on to Ruger #1s. Top end pressures set for each step of the way. The case itself can really only hold something between 5000 and 10000 PSI, the rest is on the rifle, and in particular the rifle action.

What could we run a 500 Nitro safely to if it were chambered in a Ruger #1? I dare say a hell of a lot more than we can run it in your double rifles? Why? The action--Not the cartridge itself.

Are their different levels of safe maximum for different doubles? Well of course there are. Ones made in 1900 are not the same as ones made in 2012 are they? So if we say a safe maximum for 500 Nitro is 45000 PSI for instance, is that safe in one made in 1900? I don't think it would be, not a steady diet of it. It would be somewhat less I would think, what I don't know.

We are working with Sams Sabatti 500 Nitro. Modern, well Made? Compared to others? I imagine modern and can handle 45000 or so quite easy. There have been several loads that peaked above 50000 PSI and there was little or no issues with extraction or ejection, sticky cases, flat primers, not much of anything. Is 45000 PSI safe in your rifle? A question you have to answer for yourself I think. But at least maybe some of this work can give you some starting points, some ideas, and hopefully keep you safe, if you use it wisely.

I have a good deal of experience running this equipment in bolt guns and lever guns. In the modern bolt guns, lets just say Win M70s, then Max Safe is around 60000 to 65000 PSI. When the traces start to go over that then the rifle and the cases start talking to you as well, they concur that you are getting there. In the Marlins which I have the most experience with in the lever guns, max safe is around that 45000 PSI mark. Last year I think I did a big study with the 50 B&M Alaskan on a Marlin, and sure enough, when pressures went above 45000 PSI showing on the traces, the rifle really talked back to me, it let me know we were there as well as the pressure trace. Is the pressure trace and strain gage system close? Yes, I believe it is, in all cases over the years, everything we study, case study, rifle study, heavy bolts this that the other, all agree with the Pressure Trace system. Real Pressure? Yes, and I think it's pretty damned close. All my other experience with several cartridges, many different rifles, and a few different platforms, along with case study, and velocities, all work with the Pressure trace system. And have kept me safe for several years now.

I looked in my SAAMI books the other night, man, it's beyond me, looks more like some mumbo jumbo whatever and I never got a straight answer out of any of it..... So far I don't think anyone has a really good formula to convert CUP to PSI, or back and forth, or in most cases there is just so many variables out there now that one cannot say this is safe max or not depending on the rifle platform? While I think I have unraveled at least my little end of the world with what I do, there is still a lot out there about pressures that are still a mystery, and for the most part I intend to let it remain that way, as there is little I can do about it anyway!

Michael

Barrel Strains-------------------------------

OK I will go so far as to say that Sam and I are the "Reigning Experts" when it comes to actual "Barrel Strain"! I totally believe that we have this mystery Unraveled, Revealed, Exposed, and disseminated for all to see!

When Sam first mentioned the possibility of this study I think back in 2010 sometime, it took a bit for me to get interested to begin with. Being a single barrel shooter barrel strains meant little to nothing to me personally. Over some time, the project began to grow on me, I got interested, and here we are. Now, to me, it's one of the greatest studies we have ever done and we have it down to a science now.

We first did this in 470 Nitro as you recall. At that time, we did not know any better and used full loads. We also did not understand how rearward pressure effected the overall strain at the end of the barrel where the barrel strain gage was located. Just as you see from some bullets above during chamber pressure tests the bump or secondary peak just before exit, is located just about where that strain gage would be located, about 4 inches from the muzzle. So getting interference from the chamber pressure caused those numbers to be sometime erratic, and higher than numbers we indicated on the 458 barrel strains. We learned doing the 458 that one cannot run full loads to try and capture real data. Here is an example of that learning curve below, and even 71/AA 2520 is not a full load, 77 is.




OK, as you can see lot's of interference from reward influence you might say. On barrel strains we don't care about velocity, pressure chambers and none of those concerns, what we are after is how much that bullet expands the barrel at the point of where the gage is attached. Nothing more. The number itself is relatively unimportant, but what is important about it is the number of a particular bullet when compared to another, with no other influence involved.

So we reduced the load down to where we got no interference from rearward pressures and this is what we got with the same bullet.



Big difference in consistency eh? This was now showing us what was actually happening as that bullet passed that point inside the barrel, and how much it actually bulges the barrel at that point as it passes, with no other influence on it. This is what we wanted, and this is what the 458 tests gave us.

We needed this same method for the 500 Nitro. Our little bit of experience with the 458 got us there with the 500 Nitro on the first try out, which totally amazed me, I expected to have to do several different loads to get there, and I am very excited about the upcoming Barrel Strain Tests. We ran out of time Tuesday, but I could not stand it, we got 4 barrel strain tests done with different bullets to check and make sure we had it correct, and I think we do. Take a look.











I have all the loads for the upcoming barrel strains loaded and ready. I just have to find the time to get started, which I hope to be tomorrow latest. If I don't get them done by tomorrow it will have to hold until next week. I am very excited about this test.

Michael

I don't know whether to post these Barrel Strains on this thread, or the Double Rifle Bullet Thread to be honest? I tent to think they belong on the bullet thread? But, they also pertain to the 500 Nitro?

????????


M

This may be a dumb question but it came to me at the range yesterday.

Barrel strain, can this be affected due to fouling in the bore, or how the bore is lubed.

If so are you patching between test shots? and have you tried diffrent lubes to see if it makes any differance.

Matt

Fowling? Nah, ain't had no problems with chickens and such getting in the bore yet! If so, just shoot'em outs all! I reckon you would have to put some grease on one to stuff'im in there too!


HEH.........

No man, I don't think fouling is an issue with that. Maybe if you were shooting black powder or some such then yes, but normal fouling is not an issue. Lubes? Lubes would introduce an issue.

Thanks for "Thinking" however!

Michael

Yeah I guess in my process of thinking my spelling went to the back burner. Thanks for the laugh, I make sure to send my posts out to my editor before posting. lol

Matt

No Matt Your spelling is good--It's mine

Has anyone got a few .510 TSXs we could get for our tests. Need 4 minimum. Also I'm still trying to find a couple of Federal 500NE factory rounds. PM me if you have anything.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Has anyone got a few .510 TSXs we could get for our tests. Need 4 minimum. Also I'm still trying to find a couple of Federal 500NE factory rounds. PM me if you have anything.

Sam

Sam, I think I have some. PM me the address and I'll send them to you. I'm in Vegas this week and it will be sometime toward the end of next week before I get home to them. Can you wait that long?

Todd

Thanks Todd! Hey you might want to just send it to Michael as he has my gun.

I have some Swift A-frames, North Fork Solids, DGX's, and Woodleigh Softs. If you want any of those...you are welcome to them...just say the word.

Lane, Do you have .510 Swifts? I didn't know they made them in that caliber. We can sure test them if you like. I think the Northforks we have are 535 grain, do you have 570 GR?

Sam

I pretty much shot every bullet I have in .510 caliber. I had cast, but they are .512 and we already know they put more strain on than any other bullet so I did not mess with cast.

So, if there are any bullets out there that you guys want put to the test, PM me, and I can give you an address to send to.

I have plenty of the bullets already tested, so I can do another short run I think without too much of a hassle. Will include some already done as well. Always the benchmark bullet.

Michael

Michael,

I think cast would be interesting now that we have a low pressure load for strains. .512 cast diameter is fine. You have some of those 350 cast I left with you to.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Lane, Do you have .510 Swifts? I didn't know they made them in that caliber. We can sure test them if you like. I think the Northforks we have are 535 grain, do you have 570 GR?

Sam

Yessir...I have some .510 Swifts and 570 gr NF's. I don't care if you test them or not as I am only going to shoot CEB's in my 500 NE...but I am happy to send them to you guys if you have interest in them.

peaks can also be caused by horrible barrel harmonics... put the straingage on, and pull on the barrel (don't BEND it you brute) and watch the readings

Michael or Sam....were any of the IMR4350 loads compressed using the BBW13 bullet?

Bob,

Yes with the BBW#13 which is longer than most bullets the charge was compressed which is a good thing. With RL-15 at top loads the powder was lightly compressed. No filler needed.

Sam

Fed Ex picked up the components I am sending you guys a while ago...y'all should have them tomorrow.

Again,

Great thanks to you, Michael and to Sam for the tremendous work you are doing.

I'm on my "smart" phone so can't easily scroll through all the data (well, I can but these eyes can't read it). Did you test GS Custom bullets in Sam's 500NE?

I may have some, have to look but am quite interested in these in the big boomer doubles.

Thanks CCMDoc. I don't have any GS custom bullets and don't thikn Michael has any either in .510. Will be glad to test them if we can get some.

When I return from Houston (I thought it was supposed to be warm here) I'll look and if I have them I will send them down.
Thanks

It's been a busy week here. Neither Sam nor I have had any time to devote to the Nitro projects this week, and next week looks about the same right now. It's a good time to gather up a few more .510 caliber bullets, some we have not put in the barrel strain in particular, if you have any that we have not tested, and would like to see where they fall in at. I can put together a barrel strain fairly easy with enough bullets available, which Lane sent some for the next strain tests.

Lot's of talk about fillers! Seems we should do some investigation into that area. This will be tedious and time consuming work. If done proper, it will have to be more than just a comparison between this filler, and that filler. If something shows ugly, I think we must investigate why it shows ugly, which will take time, and in some instances, I am sure we wont' be able to figure out why, and in some we will. We will see.

500 Nitro Data? Well, we have tried most of our available powders that are traditional or recommended. There are a couple that I am going to look at. There are a few load requests, we will look at that also. It might be possible I can do a few of these things from time to time over the next couple of weeks.

Michael

Hi Michael and Sam,

So far no luck in finding my GSC bullets for the 500 and since I am interested in how they fare, I'll try to find a distributor here and buy a box for you to test.

Will let you know ...

Doc

No worries, no rush!

Well, I lied to you! I did manage to work a couple of things in for you today. I have been dead busy work, and then doing new data on the 500 MDM. I had a thought today concerning IMR 8208, which Lionhunter and his hunting partner Carl turned me on to a few months ago. It has turned out to be an excellent powder in several of the B&Ms, and now it is a great powder for the 500 MDM. Why not 500 Nitro???? So my curious nature got the best of me, I went out with a load of 87/IMR 8208, No Filler, and it BLEW SAMS RIFLE UP!!!!!!




OK OK, no it did not blow it up, nor out either! HEH.... But that is funny I think!

Well it's a bit too fast I think, did well gave 2050 fps, good traces, pressure higher than I expected at 44000 PSI. Better than the factory CRAP I tested today!

There is a Reason that We Handload


I think I should not have to say a word as to WHY--If you can't see for yourself, your daft!















In my entire life I have never went to the field with Factory Ammo. There is a reason for that.

There was a FAILURE TO FIRE with the second round of the Kynoch Factory Ammo. It appeared to be a good hit, I almost did not try it twice, but then I really got too lazy to walk back to the lab, then to the range again, so I tried it twice and it fired the second try. This is the first failure to fire that this rifle has experienced???? I can't say if it was ammo, primer, rifle, or why? Just stating for future reference, in case I forget.

Michael

I think I might have just a few .510 GS custom bullets. I will have to dig. Believe they are 540 grains.....

Mac

Michael,

Lets see the data for the 8208 load. So how did it do other than blowing my gun up.
Now having a misfire with brand new Kynoch ammo is kinda scarey for those that don't reload. The only factory loads I shoot are 22 LR and shotgun. Everything else I load. Well I do shoot factory stuff for testing and comparing.


Sam

Sam, I recorded the data on the IMR 8208, but lost the traces. Hit the wrong button, and it was not the SAVE button! 2050-2042-8-2046 average and 44447 PSI.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
I think I might have just a few .510 GS custom bullets. I will have to dig. Believe they are 540 grains.....

Mac

HEH................

Michael,

That W760 sure looks good to me. What more could you want?

Sam

quote:

SRose;
What more could you want?

.

Another 150fps ???

Paul,

What do you want, 5 with one shot!

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

That W760 sure looks good to me. What more could you want?

Sam

WW760 for sure is the shining star of these tests in 500 Nitro. At least so far. Somewhat of a surprise, but I swear, you just never know sometimes. Low pressures, high velocity. 40000 PSI is near 2100 fps. We did go to 114/WW 760, gave 2129 fps and still holding at 40000 PSI. To pin WW760 down, more work needs to be done. As I recall the 114/WW760 the trace was ugly, but that could have been electrical as well. Over more time we will check it out.

2050 to 2100 fps with this bullet is more than enough to do anything asked of it, and then it will still have plenty of steam left! No worries Pauly!

Michael

Sam

Have 3 Kynoch loads left. Says on the box, 570 Soft. Is that a Kynoch soft? If so, then I suppose we need a barrel strain on that? Problem is, don't want that 42000 to 44000 PSI pushing behind it to cause interference? Maybe best to just run another Chamber test?

M

While guide and gun-trade tout sponsors are the bread and butter of AR and NE, this thread deserves an award. Let's call it the MM, for the Most Mercantile offering of the year.

Forgive me if someone else has already presented the award - reading one page was all I could manage.