More outstanding works being churned out at the M.I.B.
I learn more in a single page of these threads than I do from reading a dozen different magazine publications written by "experts".

Congrats to both Mike and Sam, we will always be indebted to your contributions of our knowledge.

I am soooo glad you chose to do this exploration on the .500 !

Mike, is the Varget brand of powders you are testing the same as our A.D.I powders here in Aus.

Have you tested the crimp v's no crimp aspect yet ?

Again, outstanding work, looking forward to reading on.

Paul.

Hey Paul, Can I speak in Mike's place? His is out on the town with his lovely wife. He told me earlier that he wasn't going to talk bullets for a couple of days.
Varget is I think the same as what you have but as said earlier every jug is different to some measure. My powder isn't your powder! Close yes. We will play with Varget some more. It does work and is similar to several other powders used in the 500 with great results.
Crimp verses no crimp we got some very interesting results and not what we thought we would. We will test this further to be sure we have it right. Crimping gave better results than not crimping. Non crimped actually gave higher pressures! Now don't start jumping up and down saying no way! We need to do more tests once we have a super load to give us the best results. My theory is the bullet is moving before the powder is igniting and getting closer to the rifling which is causing higher pressures and eratic results.

Sam

Yes to Sam & Michael!

Awesome stuff Sam, thanks for responding.

I'm quite blown away by the variation in lots of powder from the same maker and of the same designation.
I would have thought, and always asumed, that their (the powder companies) potential liability would have ensured some quality control/consistancy at least amongst batches of the same lot batches powder.

Also the crimping issues seems to be indicating the oposite results of what I was expecting, but I'm glad in a way that, so far, crimping is being shown as positive.
I like to crimp all my big bores.

I'll be following this thread often and am sure I will learn a lot.
Thanks again for making the .500 the focus of this research, as you know I have a vested interest !

Sam & Michael,
Thank you for your work. The increase in pressure on non crimped cases. This is extremely interesting. The crimp no crimp results are different than the “tribal knowledge” bantered around by most experts. I have used a heavy crimp on pistol cases because I got more consistent velocity, also the bullets don’t jump and lock up the pistol. I have tried no crimp in single shot pistols aka contenders. The chronograph showed that crimping gave more uniform velocity. I would have bet that un crimped would give lower presher.
Bill

Bill, You're welcome!

Do any of you 500 shooters have loads you want tested. I am doing everything from NFB to full nitro and with quite a few different bullets. If you have something we haven't covered let me know.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
Sam & Michael,
Thank you for your work. The increase in pressure on non crimped cases. This is extremely interesting. The crimp no crimp results are different than the “tribal knowledge” bantered around by most experts. I have used a heavy crimp on pistol cases because I got more consistent velocity, also the bullets don’t jump and lock up the pistol. I have tried no crimp in single shot pistols aka contenders. The chronograph showed that crimping gave more uniform velocity. I would have bet that un crimped would give lower presher.
Bill

Bill, was there info on crimped vs. non crimped cases? I can't seem to find it.

Dave,

There is some of this crimp no crimp data on Michael's B&M site. We are not finished testing so it hasn't been posted here.

Sam

OK guys, Michael and I are going to be shooting the 500NE again on Tuesday so if any of you have something you want tested now is your chance. I have loaded up some more NFB test loads and we are going to explore some new powders as well. I'm running out of ideas so help.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Bill, was there info on crimped vs. non crimped cases? I can't seem to find it.

Dave, We did 3 tests with 3 different powders crimped and no crimp with BBW#13s. Some rather strange data, some unexpected actually. Of those three tests, all in one way or the other point to crimping those cases, in this cartridge, as giving more reliable and consistent loads. We have some more work to do on this. I have some ideas up my sleeve on this.

Now the reason I have not posted the data, yes, as Sam says, not complete yet, but in addition, I just have not had time to do so yet, same as with the BP loads. It's quite a mission to post those traces. First print them out, then scan them in pdf, then convert them to jpgs, then upload to photobucket, then can be posted. Just with such a work load here I have not had time to get to that point yet.

Michael

My interests:

1) <97gr R-15 loads with NO foam filler.
2) More data on V n550
3) Data on the H414 & H380 loads listed by Barnes see their website for starting loads

Thank y'all very much and if I can do anything to help...please holler!

Lane

Thanks, excellent. RL 15 and V-N550 is going to be taken care of, no problem

I don't have any H414 or H380. ???? Not right now anyway. Sam might?

We will get'er done however, one way, the other!

I just got the barrel strain gage attached--Whew, somewhat of a mission!

M

Got it covered on this end.

I did tests back about 5 years ago on crimping and not crimping. I did not have all the cool gadgets that Michael has, only had my Oehler chrono. I use to never crimp an believed that it was the only way to fly. In tests among a dozen or so different calibers from 308 on up to 470 every load showed better consistency and lower SD when crimped. My theory has been that crimping allows better combustion and higher initial pressures until the bullet leaves the case and engages the rifling better. My thinking is that when a bullet engages the rifling at a higher more consistent speed you don’t get as much buildup in pressure when the bullet is allowed to jump from the case from the initial primer detonation. I think when not crimped the primer ignition pushes the bullet out of the case engaging the rifling then it takes more pressure to get the bullet moving again. I don’t know, but that has just been my idea for the past few years.

I remember when I was doing a crimp verses non-crimp comparison in my 7 mag several years ago I did a ladder test with the same recipes but only changed the crimp/no-crimp and ran the test. Once I reached the upper end the same load in the non-crimp bullets had a noticeably flatter primer and in some cases the primer started to flow, where crimped cases did not have flattened primers at all. The upper velocities were very similar but better uniformity with the crimped cases.

Now days I order a factory crimp die for all my cartridges.

Mac

Mac,

You and I think alike! My theory is as you say in non crimped the bullet jumps and gets closer to the rifling before ignition and causes higher pressure. We will test this further.

Sam

Ya I will be real interested to see what your findings are.

Mac

From my 44 mag revolver experience -- There are two things to consider, crimp and case grip on bullet . Both are needed. There should be enough grip on the bullet so that you can't push the bullet with your further into the case .The crimp should add to that .Too much crimp can reduce accuracy.Without these two factors the relatively slow powders won't burn properly and velocity suffers . Elmer Keith was right again !
Similar effects should be seen with large rifle cartridges I'm sure .

quote:

Elmer Keith was right again

Ole Elmer had a lot of things right! How about a flat nose meplat being one of them?

Mac and Sam

I think you two are on to something and I concur with that finding (bullet jump) on these cartridges that are not crimped.

Michael

In the 6PPC centerfire benchrest world, a tight case neck and seating the bullet just into the leade of the rifling is the way to small groups....you never crimp, there isn't anything of substance to grip(brass or bullet).

But it's the same theory....don't force your bullet to jump too quickly into the rifling if you're after consistent small groups.

quote:

Originally posted by bobgrow:
In the 6PPC centerfire benchrest world, a tight case neck and seating the bullet just into the leade of the rifling is the way to small groups....you never crimp, there isn't anything of substance to grip(brass or bullet).

But it's the same theory....don't force your bullet to jump too quickly into the rifling if you're after consistent small groups.

Bob, I don't use a crimp on any of the B&Ms either, MDM yes, but the others have such good neck tension I have never needed a crimp, and get excellent results, even pressures, consistent velocities. If things are tight, and I mean tight, no crimp needed. But, not always the "case", so to speak. I have some ideas about loading some 500s tomorrow with no crimp so we will see if anything makes a difference.

All cases/cartridges, and size dies not created equal all the time.

M

CRAP he's going to blow up my gun!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
CRAP he's going to blow up my gun!

Just hope that all he does to it! Did I hear something about a coach gun?

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
CRAP he's going to blow up my gun!

Just hope that all he does to it! Did I hear something about a coach gun?

Oh, I have that barrel strain gage attached perfectly now! Exactly 4 inches behind the muzzle at the 16 inch mark! Perfect I reckon! Crap, let me get the bastard file on those muzzles before Sam gets here this morning! Looks kinda rough, don't even look straight across either, hmmmm, wonder how that effects regulation? Didn't think about that? Oh well!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Mac,

You and I think alike! My theory is as you say in non crimped the bullet jumps and gets closer to the rifling before ignition and causes higher pressure. We will test this further.

Sam

Dave

Keep scratching, we are too. RL 15 reacted different. We are doing another one now to confirm last weeks work.
Another powder. we did not do RL 15 last week.

M

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Mac,

You and I think alike! My theory is as you say in non crimped the bullet jumps and gets closer to the rifling before ignition and causes higher pressure. We will test this further.

Sam

???

Whew--It has been a very long day! Just out of the showers now, my clock says 5:24 PM. Sam is in the road home. He still has another 1.5 hours to go. We had another big day with the 500 Nitro. A tremendous amount of data, will take time to compile for sure. I will start in the morning. I count 49 strings of data to compile.

Including the beginning of "Barrel Strains" and they are going to BLOW YOUR MIND!

When Sam and I started doing barrel strains in the 470 Nitro, we really did not have a clue as to how it would work, how we could make it work better and was probing around in the dark. It was new. No one had ever done this! Today, we have progressed in the work to get it down to true science. Barrel strain is REAL. We can prove it! No Doubt About It!

The first barrel strains were done with full Nitro Loads! While not perfect, in the rankings things worked out for the most part. But now we know we must not work with full Nitro, or higher pressure loads to get mere barrel strain. We do not want any interference coming from the chamber pressure, messing with the strains! We learned this with the 458 B&M and trying to work with full pressure loads, just not possible and readings crazy, inconsistent. Dropping the pressures low, and getting no interference from chamber pressures is the way to do it, and all the 458 Data is good to go. We have this now in 500 Nitro as well with a load we developed for it today. We have true barrel strain readings. So good is the 458 and the 510 data collected, that we are going to do 470 barrel strains over again. I will be working with this the coming weeks. I hope this week to do more work in the 500 Nitro, and finish barrel strains by the end of the week. That is my goal anyway! Then to start again on the 470 Barrel strains, tighten up those numbers as well.

For now, later guys, I am out of here!

I am so tired today, I am going to only copy this, post it on the 500 Nitro thread as well.

Michael

Yep I just got home in the dark again. Michael is right we had a long day but oh what fun. I thought we shot less than last week but it seems we actually got more data today. Wow everytime we would think we would have something it would fool us. Michael has a ton of stuff to put together but I will try and give a few tid bits. First it is hard to get 2150 fps out of 24 inch barrels in this 500 NE. It doesn't matter what powder we try we are just short of that. Had high hopes for several powders but once we got to top end they would let us down. W 760 has turned out to be a really nice powder in the 500 NE. RL-15 is still mighty good and might edge out IMR 4350. Crimp verses no crimp is starting to stump us. Do what does good in your gun with your load because it changes back and forth with about every powder and configuration we tried. Use a powder that fills the case and needs no filler and work at it still it shoots. I don't like fillers of any kind anymore. If you have air space you better use a filler that holds the powder tight to the primer. Wild results with loose powder verses filler.

Big Bwana free free to PM me.

Sam

Sam,
You and Michael deserve tremendous respect and sincere appreciation for your efforts. Great, great stuff - as usual.

Not surprised by 760 growing on you -you might remember its one of my favorites for the 600.

Also not surprised by your loss of love for RL15 in big cases. I was never convinced by the lovefest it engendered for the minuscule reduction in recoil. I do use it for a variety of calibers and some have good results with it in the big boomers but I still prefer not to need filler and that means using slower powders.

Again great GREAT work!

Thanks Sam and Michael

Thanks CCMDoc, You Norma loads were a big help.
Michael and I did a lot of new loads today. Rl-15 works great in the 500 without filler and a BBW#13 bullet. One big advantage of this brass bullet is that it takes up a lot of space in the case, no need for a filler.

Sam

If you need some more let me know - I think I have 6 left. You're right and that's another reason I love the CEB bullets

Thanks CCMDoc! I think we have enough right now. Would like to get a couple of Federal factory if anyone has some. Have Kynoch new and Kynoch original cordite on the way. Always good to compare.

Just found this topic. Kudos to Michael and Sam on the 500 Nitro load work--keep it up!!!!

I think I have all the data from yesterday compiled to go with the data from 1/24/12. I separated the data into 2 documents, 500 Nitro Data and 500 Nitro Reduced Load Data. There was more than enough to make two documents and keep it separated.

It is now available to you on the same B&M page as before. Old data has been removed.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Barrel-Strain.html


This actually completes the basic data. Of course data can still be added, and if anyone has a load they would like to have tested, let us know. It's not much of a mission to load a few and give it a go. As long as we have the components to do so.

We identified several good powders that one can use in 500 Nitro, IMR 4350, V-N140, IMR 4007, RL17, RL 15, V-N550, and WW760. All of these looked good, some looked real good combining pressure with the best velocity, WW760, RL15, V-N140 looking the best on that front. Any of these can be used for some good combinations.

Some nice examples listed below;














Michael

OK, there has been a lot of talk about Crimp or No Crimp! We do have an answer to that question! I will summarize at the end.

Here are the results of a few tests done, with different powders.




First let's look at IMR 4350 Crimp vs No Crimp. Really not a lot of difference in the end. One might argue that the crimped looks a tiny bit more consistent and it is on this test, at that moment. The next one could reverse and be some different?






The same test with RL 17. Here I would say the No Crimp seems to be more consistent. However at the cost of higher pressure as well.







Varget. Varget at 96 gave us pressures we consider a bit too high, but to remain consistent we continued the test both on the 24th and the 31st. The Test on 1/24/2012 shows clearly that the Crimped is far more consistent than the No Crimp in terms of pressure, in terms of velocity there is not much difference there.






Same exact test performed on 1/31/2012 we see a totally different story. The No Crimp looks the best to me, lowered pressures considerably, and about as consistent in velocity and trace to trace. Same lb of Varget, same primers same everything. I think about the only difference is that these no crimps were not belled and that is it.






With RL 15 Crimp vs no Crimp Velocity and Pressure somewhat less with no crimp, consistency about the same overall.







Question, Crimp or No Crimp? One could actually go either way. Our Conclusion to this, There is No Conclusion! There are way too many variables to consider one way or the other. Variables? Cartridge, Powder,bullet, primer, rifle, loading methods, size die from one brand to another and even within the same brand, expand or not, bell or not and how much, and the list could go on and on. My advise, use the method that has been working for you and continue on. No one can really tell you if you are right, or wrong, or in between. If that bullet is not moving you may be fine without, if it is, you may need a crimp. Who Knows? I don't!

Michael

Thank you for this most serious work. Fascinating.

Regards, Tim

OK one last post for this morning and I swear I have to get to work on real things!

FACTORY AMMO

I really should have done this as a first post this morning! Oh well, here it is. We had a couple of rounds of Hornady Factory 570 DGS and 4 rounds of Norma PH Ammo donated by Doc.

We only tested two of the Norma PH Factory ammo of the 4. During we only were able to collect 1 of the 2 velocity readings, so we came up short on that. Pressures were low, and velocity on the one was high. I would have to guess that the 1 velocity taken was from Trace #1, highest pressure. While overall pressure was low, especially for the one velocity captured, there was a huge spread between Trace 1 and Trace 2. This test will be repeated with the two remaining rounds.




The Hornady DGS Factory ammo looked like this. Just before 1.5 milliseconds you see a secondary peak. I confirmed this morning this is not a powder or load peak, it's caused by the bullet. We tested the Hornady DGS with 106/IMR 4350, and got that near exact same second peak. Why? I don't have a clue on this one, but it is the bullet itself causing this irregularity.





I just found that interesting concerning the Hornady Bullet.

Michael

Hey Michael and Sam

Great Data,
For someone who is fairly green when it comes to most big bores, It has opened up my eyes to many topics which I felt completly in the dark about.
Thank you guys for all your hard work and sore shoulders.

BTW, Reloader 33, a powder which should be out this spring may be a viable option for the nitros and many others.

Matt

Michael and Sam,

I think I have 6 more rounds of the Norma factory stuff. If you need it and Sam's shoulder is up to it, let me know and I'll send them down.

Interesting stuff

For the velocity your getting with 96 gr of Varget...why isn't it a good choice? Certainly 96 maybe a smidgen over max but 95 might be good???