quote:

Originally posted by Afrique:
Whenever I see a thread that is so blatantly one-sided, it makes me want to get on the other side, sometimes for no other reason than to bring some balance into the argument.

Terry Weiland doesn't think much of Butch Searcy rifles, he doesn't think they are reliable, he doesn't think they are well made and he doesn't think they are worth the money. Well, good for Terry Weiland. There is nothing wrong with his opinions; we all have them.

For saying this however, he is being demonized. People who have never read his book are saying he doesn't know what he is talking about and are declaring: I'll never read his book!" (With a mind that produces that sort of logic, the guy probably couldn't read it anyway).

Double rifles are expensive due to the work involved and traditionally have been made in England and Continental Europe. These expensive rifles, when exported to the US, become even more expensive due to US import taxes and shipping costs. The facts seem to me that Butch Searcy has build his reputation because he is American, making cheap double rifles for Americans, when the US is not well served by double-rifle makers. So, Butch cleans up on a mix of patriotism, cheap-for-product terms and good marketing. Good for Butch.

And Butch Searcy rifles are cheap, no doubt about it. I don't think they are good as Merkel, and probably not as good as Krieghoff. (So demonise me too, I couldn't care less). As for comparing them to Holland & Holland, Westley Richards, Purdey and other top gunmakers; that's just plain foolish. People comment, Why pay all that money for an English Double?". Here's the answer: it's because ninety-nine times out of a hundred the person saying that can't afford one.

When a car nut wins a few million dollars on the lottery, they don't usually go running down to the dealership and buy the Ford of their dreams, they go and buy a Ferrari or a Lamborghini or a Bentley. In the same way, if a shooter strikes gold and decides to award himself a new custom built double rifle, he will probably head for Holland & Holland, Rigby or Westley Richards.

If you want a cheap gun that you are going to shoot a few times a year and if money is a constraint then by one built by Butch Searcy. It will do the job.

If you want a gun that is an object of great beauty and mystique, that has been serving hunters for over a hundred years, that has reached a pinnacle of technical excellence, that will never let you down and which will appreciate in value each and every year: buy one of the great English double rifles. That's what Terry Weiland is saying - I agree with him.

Welcome to the forum. Nice first post BTW. It always makes me laugh when a new expert appears out of nowhere, with no info about who they are, and posts somthing like you did. Thanks for the humor.

quote:

Originally posted by Afrique:
Whenever I see a thread that is so blatantly one-sided, it makes me want to get on the other side, sometimes for no other reason than to bring some balance into the argument.

Afrique , You are certainly entitled to your opinion, no matter if you are new or not! I don't think because some disagree with your take on this thread, that they are denying your rights! At least you say who you are talking about, bu that can't be said of Mr. Wieland, in this case!

First let me say I have read almost everything Mr. Wieland has ever written, and though I disagree with him on many things he writes, I do agree with him on more than I disagree. I have his book Dangerous game rifles, but haven't read the DGR-II as yet, so I can't say much on that book till I do read the passage that started this thread.

However, I can comment on his habit of flip-flopping on many things over the years. One such is his glowing assessment of the California Rigby in DGR-I, and the Merkel double rifles, but when he gets in the ring with Mr. Miller over a girl friend suddenly the Cal Rigby is smoke and mirrors, and only the new ones to be made in England are right up to the originals!

The fact is we disagreed with Mr. Wieland on his opinion of the Cal Rigby in the first book, but we haven't changed horses in midstream.
If you think the people here are simply backing Butch Searcy simply because he is an American, you are sadly mistaken! The Searcy are not H&H, PURDY, OR WESTLEY RICHARDS rifles, and were never said to be, and Butch will be the first to tell you that fact. He has never tried to compete with those fine makers, and will tell you he builds a double rifle made for the hunter, not the collector. They work, they are accurate, and they are backed by his lifetime warranty, even if you buy it used. Being made in the USA is only a plus to folks who live in the USA, because of the ease of service, or modifications later down the road.

This is about Mr.Wieland's propensity to change horses depending on who is giving him something, not the Searcy rifles. Personally I believe it is not good journalism trash someone, without naming them and taking responsibility for his attack, instead of making anonymous "phone calls" in his writing. Trashing a person's business, and reputation from the shadows is, IMO, cowardly!

Let me qualify my statements in this post by telling you I do not own a Searcy rifle, and have never owned a Searcy rifle, but have hunted with and shot many of them, and have friends who have Searcy rifles that are many years old that have not hundreds but in one case thousands of 470NE rounds through the barrels with no problem at all, before he sold the rifle to a PH in Africa, where it is still working in the field today.

I don't think anyone here would say that the English, and European double rifles are not for the most part are quality items, they are, again, in most cases flawless. They certainly are, in the better brands, but there is some real junk coming out of the old country today, that can't match the quality, and durability of a Searcy double rifle. I have known Butch since he lived in New Mexico, many years ago, and he would be the first to tell you that his rifles are not for everyone, and if they don't suit you, nobody will force you to buy one. It seems you and Mr. Wieland dislike the Searcy rifles, and that is you right, but simply because most here disagree with you, is not indictment of the folks here as somehow biased. The majority feeling one way doesn't make them right, but it is an indication that they may have something! You know the democratic system is two wolves, and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner. The end result will always cause a different opinion by the minority! In this case
The minority happens to be you, and Mr.Wieland, but that doesn't mean the majority is wrong.

IMO, in the final analysis this thread is not about double rifles anyway, but about poor conduct of Mr.Wieland's talking behind the confessional screen making innuendo, in print, without the balls to say who he is talking about! IMO, if you talk stand behind what you say, and make it clear who you are saying it about! Anything less is the mark of a coward!

..........................

quote:

Originally posted by Afrique:
Whenever I see a thread that is so blatantly one-sided, it makes me want to get on the other side, sometimes for no other reason than to bring some balance into the argument.

Terry Weiland doesn't think much of Butch Searcy rifles, he doesn't think they are reliable, he doesn't think they are well made and he doesn't think they are worth the money. Well, good for Terry Weiland. There is nothing wrong with his opinions; we all have them.

For saying this however, he is being demonized. People who have never read his book are saying he doesn't know what he is talking about and are declaring: I'll never read his book!" (With a mind that produces that sort of logic, the guy probably couldn't read it anyway).

Double rifles are expensive due to the work involved and traditionally have been made in England and Continental Europe. These expensive rifles, when exported to the US, become even more expensive due to US import taxes and shipping costs. The facts seem to me that Butch Searcy has build his reputation because he is American, making cheap double rifles for Americans, when the US is not well served by double-rifle makers. So, Butch cleans up on a mix of patriotism, cheap-for-product terms and good marketing. Good for Butch.

And Butch Searcy rifles are cheap, no doubt about it. I don't think they are good as Merkel, and probably not as good as Krieghoff. (So demonise me too, I couldn't care less). As for comparing them to Holland & Holland, Westley Richards, Purdey and other top gunmakers; that's just plain foolish. People comment, Why pay all that money for an English Double?". Here's the answer: it's because ninety-nine times out of a hundred the person saying that can't afford one.

When a car nut wins a few million dollars on the lottery, they don't usually go running down to the dealership and buy the Ford of their dreams, they go and buy a Ferrari or a Lamborghini or a Bentley. In the same way, if a shooter strikes gold and decides to award himself a new custom built double rifle, he will probably head for Holland & Holland, Rigby or Westley Richards.

If you want a cheap gun that you are going to shoot a few times a year and if money is a constraint then by one built by Butch Searcy. It will do the job.

If you want a gun that is an object of great beauty and mystique, that has been serving hunters for over a hundred years, that has reached a pinnacle of technical excellence, that will never let you down and which will appreciate in value each and every year: buy one of the great English double rifles. That's what Terry Weiland is saying - I agree with him.

Welcome to the Forum Terry!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Welcome to the Forum Terry!

Yah, No Chit.
At least `fess up to who you are..

Hi Terry,

let me welcome you to the forum as well. Your stilted prose gives you away, well before the whine did.
You do need to have the testicular fortitude to admit who you are though; if you are going to hang out here.
This childish, transparent "Afrique" nome de plum ill suits an adult male.

But, as long as you are here; do you plan on paying for the Kalifornia Rigby or returning it?

Oh, yes, and enough of us have Emailed PeterDK (who reads and posts here) at the London Rigby site that you probably won't be able to take one of their rifles out of the building ever again.

Rich

Idaho, if you turn out to be correct regarding the identity of new member Afrique, I give you my solemn promise to STFU on this subject.

If you are right, I am going to be very disapointed. Maybe Saeed could resolve this. Anonymous posting when one is the subject of a thread does not speak well of the poster. Butch Searcy posted as Butch Searcy.

If you're the slightest bit interested as to why I keep weighing in on this, PM me.

Best,

-Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Afrique:

If you want a cheap gun that you are going to shoot a few times a year and if money is a constraint then by one built by Butch Searcy. It will do the job.

My first Searcy was a field grade in .470NE it had over 2,000 rounds through it, killed several hundred feral hogs, a cape buffalo an elephant some plains game a few coyotes and several dozen jack rabbits. I also won third in the world double rifle competition in 2004 smoking many of the finer English rifle shooters at the event.

Do ya think that could have been because I wasn't afraid to use my rifle when the English rifle guys are? Yes Terry I actually use my double rifles, I hunt with them I kill game with them and I shoot the living piss out of them and Searcy rifles can take it.

My newest rifle is a Searcy PH grade in .470 NE it shoots just at .5" barrel to barrel at 50 yards. How does your Rigby (merkel action wanna be) do?!?....Oh yeah you never got it!

Searcy rifles are tough and they are accurate. Your comment about being cheap and only able to be shot several times a year is huge load of bullshit. I wonder Mr. I make $500 bucks per article gun writer how much time you've actually spent behind a double rifle? Any double rifle that you were paying the bill on?

quote:

Originally posted by Afrique:

When a car nut wins a few million dollars on the lottery, they don't usually go running down to the dealership and buy the Ford of their dreams, they go and buy a Ferrari or a Lamborghini or a Bentley. In the same way, if a shooter strikes gold and decides to award himself a new custom built double rifle, he will probably head for Holland & Holland, Rigby or Westley Richards.

If you want a cheap gun that you are going to shoot a few times a year and if money is a constraint then by one built by Butch Searcy. It will do the job.

If you want a gun that is an object of great beauty and mystique, that has been serving hunters for over a hundred years, that has reached a pinnacle of technical excellence, that will never let you down and which will appreciate in value each and every year: buy one of the great English double rifles. That's what Terry Weiland is saying - I agree with him.

Oh god, here we go with the "car argument" again to justify the inflated price (and inflated egos) of the English double rifle makers. A car has thousand of moving parts. How many does a double rifle have. That is the stupidest argument ever made.

A double rifle has to handle well, balance well and shoot well. You can throw in some nice wood and make it look nice too. If Merkel (or Searcy) can build a double for $9,000, and Holland & Holland can build one for $50,000, then who indeed has the better product.

You are right, I can't afford an English double. Don't own a Searcy either but I do own a Krieghoff and even if I had the money, I would stick with the Krieghoff. They make a great gun that rivals ANY English gun ever made. I suspect that the Searcy does as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Don't own a Searcy either but I do own a Krieghoff and even if I had the money, I would stick with the Krieghoff. They make a great gun that rivals ANY English gun ever made. I suspect that the Searcy does as well.

Dave,

You need to handle more rifles!

JPK

quote:

In the same way, if a shooter strikes gold and decides to award himself a new custom built double rifle, he will probably head for Holland & Holland, Rigby or Westley Richards.

quote:

If you want a cheap gun that you are going to shoot a few times a year and if money is a constraint then by one built by Butch Searcy. It will do the job.

quote:

And Butch Searcy rifles are cheap, no doubt about it. I don't think they are good as Merkel, and probably not as good as Krieghoff. (So demonise me too, I couldn't care less).

No need to demonize you Afrique. You have already done such a wonderful job of showing how little you know. Apparently, you have your finger on the pulse of Terry Weiland's ego, nothing more.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Don't own a Searcy either but I do own a Krieghoff and even if I had the money, I would stick with the Krieghoff. They make a great gun that rivals ANY English gun ever made. I suspect that the Searcy does as well.

Dave,

You need to handle more rifles!

JPK

JPK:

You are correct indeed.

I have no prejudice against the fine guns from Holland & Holland or some of the other great English makers. They tend to achieve balance, weight, and handling by changing the barrel contour which is the right way to do it. The less expensive continental guns like Kreighoffs and Merkels tend to make a "one size fits all rifle" using the same barrel contour for all calibers. This tends to make the smaller calibers (.375) too heavy and the heavy calibers (.500) too light, especially the Merkel. Other guns like my Blaser S2 are just heavy to start with and balance is achieved by putting a weight in the stock. The balance is right but the handling suffers. I think with continental guns the trick is to pick the right caliber. For example, my Krieghoff .500/.416 comes in right at 10.5 pounds which is about perfect. It is a joy to carry and shoot. I would assume a .470 K-gun would be as well. My .470 Blaser does not handle as well but it is hell for stout and the added weight really helps tame the recoil. One other advantage of the S2 is that if I want to move up to a .500, all I have to do is order a set of barrels. No fitting is required and the same fore end will work. It's a snap. Try that with a Holland & Holland!

English guns are great but at least to me anyway,they just aren't $40,000-50,000 more great.

By the way, the .500/.416 is THE BEST DOUBLE RIFLE CALIBER EVER.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
By the way, the .500/.416 is THE BEST DOUBLE RIFLE CALIBER EVER.

You at least have the .500 part right.

This thread is getting interesting.
My Searcy is an old 470, from back when he was using BSS actions. It was a double I could afford, and I had the pleasure of popping a couple of tuskless with it last year.
I've probably fed it in the neighborhood of 1000 rounds.
When the ejectors became unreliable last year, I called Butch. He had already been very generous with his time, helping me with load development and such. He asked me to send him the rifle. It was fixed (just an adjustment needed secondary to wear) and back in my hands in less than a week. This rifle is probably a good 20 years old. No charge.
There's no question I'd like to own a fine English double, but I'll bet the customer service wouldn't be nearly that sharp. Would I buy another Searcy? In a heartbeat.

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
There's no question I'd like to own a fine English double, but I'll bet the customer service wouldn't be nearly that sharp.

Considering most of the companies are no longer in existance I would imagine you're right!

Brett

Okay, you got me there. Let's change that to "European."

While I haven't read Weiland's book, I do know Butch and his rifles. I spent several years looking at them through a magnifier and can say without a doubt that they are fine guns. Butch is a stand up guy and goes above and beyond to take care of his customers. Good for him for him for voicing his thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
This thread is getting interesting.
My Searcy is an old 470, from back when he was using BSS actions. It was a double I could afford, and I had the pleasure of popping a couple of tuskless with it last year.
I've probably fed it in the neighborhood of 1000 rounds.
When the ejectors became unreliable last year, I called Butch. He had already been very generous with his time, helping me with load development and such. He asked me to send him the rifle. It was fixed (just an adjustment needed secondary to wear) and back in my hands in less than a week. This rifle is probably a good 20 years old. No charge.
There's no question I'd like to own a fine English double, but I'll bet the customer service wouldn't be nearly that sharp. Would I buy another Searcy? In a heartbeat.

Gentlemen if anyone wants to know why Butch's rifles are so popular, the above post is the best discription of Bucth Searcy's business practice as any I've ever heard. His rifles are servicable and the man is the real deal! Nothing else is needed!

....................

quote:

For example, my Krieghoff .500/.416 comes in right at 10.5 pounds which is about perfect. It is a joy to carry and shoot. I would assume a .470 K-gun would be as well.

Dave,

Weight is but one factor, as you have noted in your post.

Carrying is just dealing with dead weight and where it is on the rifle makes little difference, imo. It is the dynamics of mounting and shooting where a well proportioned double will walk away from others as far as handling.

I have no experience with Kreighoff 500/416's but the 470's handle like fence posts and kick worse than they ought to for a 470 as well.

Not that they won't shoot 500grs at 2100fps or so, just that hunting with one would be a matter of overcoming the tool's characteristics and deficiencies, rather than the tool's charecteristics and attributes aiding in one's performance.

JPK

Butch is at the top of his game as a rifle maker. IF you want mystique and appreciation in value, perhaps fine art is a better investment. If you want something that flat out works and is a great tool for its intended purpose (that would be hunting) and is not designed or built to spend its life as a Louve exhibit, Searcy is amoug the best for a hunter.

Of course, if you spend more time polishing a chair with your ass than you spend actually shooting and hunting, I suppose I have to concede an H&H is a lot better companion to a roaring fire in a 20,000 square foot English estate with a snifter of Napoleon Brandy.

As for MR. Wieland, don't know the man. But I tend to look at a person's credibility in assessing whether their opinions are worth a damn.

From where things stand now, I think Wieland's credibility may be something to consider.

quote:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/BlogEntry.aspx?id=1974&cid=25

As journalistic fortune would have it, Wieland also visited “California Rigby” so he could make a comparison. "I was shocked," Wieland said. "There was a total lack of traditional gunmaking."

What he found was a couple of laborers cobbling together doubles rifles on Merkel shotgun actions (complete with German proofmarks). Instead of regulating the barrels by hand, like skilled gunmakers, the California workers clamped the barrels in some Rube Goldberg contraption and "regulated" them.

“I was appalled,” Wieland said. “Geoff Miller actually bragged to me that he does not employ traditionally qualified gunmakers. Instead, he had hired a guitar maker to fit the stocks on the theory that wood is wood, and an auto mechanic to fit the barrels. Miller's contempt for his products, his so-called craftsmen, the gunmaking trade, and his customers is almost palpable."

quote:

http://www.americanrifleman.or....aspx?id=2011&cid=25

In reference to article on the American Rifleman blog concerning “Rigby vs Rigby; the Proof is in the Gun”. I like to state for the record that both Mr. Hopkins and Mr. Wieland have personal issues with me and for that reason and no other have decided to defame John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Inc., its products and its personnel when the facts completely negate their statements in the blog. ...

Further, I would refer you to the Shooting Times Guide to Accuracy published this year with an article written by Terry Wieland who essentially cites us (Rigby) as the expert on regulating double guns. Further I would also refer you to Mr. Wieland’s book on Dangerous Game Rifles, page 6A where he states that the rifle we built him is “uncompromising Best Quality rifle”. Which, incidentally, he has refused to return or pay for.

quote:

http://www.americanrifleman.or....aspx?cid=25&id=2057

Even more recently, on Dec. 23 2009, noted firearms authority and author Terry Wieland filed suit in a U.S. federal court against “California Rigby” and its proprietor, Geoffery Miller, for assault, libel and slander. In his suit, the author of “Dangerous Game Rifles” contends that Miller made false statements that have damaged his reputation.

Not sure what's true not, but there is reason to take Wieland's views with a grain of salt. Especially if he's never been to Butch's shop, never talked to Butch, and, a good chance that he's never shot a Searcy. Repeating second hand information is nothing more than gossip and hearsay.

I am not a Searcy owner, but have handled and shot some of his rifles. I can no way afford one, but seeing as how building a double is apparently a skill transferable to the bicycle making business, I will anxiously await the future production a Searcy PH bike.....

quote:

Of course, if you spend more time polishing a chair with your ass than you spend actually shooting and hunting, I suppose I have to concede an H&H is a lot better companion to a roaring fire in a 20,000 square foot English estate with a snifter of Napoleon Brandy.

Jim,

An H&H is a lot better companion in a mud hut with a thatched roof and a pot full of home brew too.

JPK

I belive the other double rifle that Johan Calitz hunts with is Westly Richards in 500, he may very well own serveral more double's as well from what I understand Johan has a very nice gun collection. My point being as some others have stated if Johan Calitz, who most people would agree is atleast one of the most experinced dangerous game PH's in Africa today, thinks enough of his Searcy double to carry it in the field when he also owns a double made by one of the most highly regaurded English makers speaks volumes on the quality of Searcy's rifles. I don't pretend to know which gun he carries the most, or how many guns he takes in the field I also realize that he and Butch are friends; but friend or not I don't see someone with Johan Calitz expertise hunting elephants with a gun that he does not feel is 100% reliable.

I don't have a copy of Terry's new book, I do have the first edition and I thought it was alright. I enjoyed the pictures he had of all the fine rifles in it. What I never really understood about the book is why he spends so much time talking about A-square and it's products. I'm not running them down becuase I have no experince with them at all good or bad, but Terry spends a lot of the space he devoted in the book to talking about A-square softs and solids althogh he has no field experince with them or atleast he does not speak of it. While at the same time spends very little if none at all with some of the more popular bullets that hunters are taking to Africa today like the Swift A-frmae. Maybe this is diffrent in the new book, like I said I have not read it. It just seemed odd to me that he would give these bullets such high marks yet you hardly ever hear of them in other books or recomended by PH's. Prehaps they are fantastic and I just missed the boat on them, but what do I know anyway my custom rifle is built on a Remington action so I'm doomed anyway.

Well, well, well. Afrique here. The guy you like to hate. What a sorry shower of people I'm finding. A friend of mine told me to look at this site because I might find it interesting and because, he said, it was filled with folks who knew about guns and had an opinion and might appreciate some debate.

And what do I find? A big bunch of nasty bigots who can't wait to get their claws into someone who doesn't follow the same slavish ideas that they hold.

Take a minute to have a read through some of bile that followed my post, because I had the cheek to say something different from what everyone else was saying. See if you feel a little bit ashamed.

Rosco started with a rather derisory conclusion that it makes him laugh when an 'expert appears out of nowhere.' Who's the expert? This is opinion.

True, I was encouraged by MacD37, who gave an elequent rebuttal to what I said. Fair enough MacD37. I don't agree with you but no matter, you expressed yourself well.

Then we see the first signs of the loons: "Welcome to the forum Terry!" followed by "Yah, fess up to who you are!"

Idaho Sharpshooter climbs on the bandwagon: he recognises Terry becasue of the stilted prose and becasue of his whining and says Afrique is an ill-suiting to an adult male (this is from a guy who calls himself "Idaho Sharpshooter"?!?!).

Then Mauser93 tunes in to the conspiracy theory, also convinced that the post is from gutless Terry in disguise. He makes some sort of veiled threats.

And so on. What a collection of nuts!

What is wrong with you people? Why are you so easily led? Why can't you tolerate anyone else thinking differently than you and why do you want to crush what they say and think? If my history serves me right, a bunch of people in Berlin in the 1930's had a pretty similar level of tolerance to anyone who didn't bend over and accept what they believed was the right message.

OK, for the record, I am not Terry Weiland, I have never met Terry Weiland and I wouldn't recognise Terry Weiland if I fell over him in the street. I'll tell you what though, I'm starting to like him more and more after listening to the sh*t coming out of some of you bozos.

I am a hunter. I have been hunting for over 25 years. I have been on a number of safaris in a number of countries in Africa. These have been safaris in the wild, not shooting hapless creatures in a fenced enclosure in South Africa. I have shot Elephant and Buffalo and Leopard and Hippo and I have been charged and nearly killed in Africa. I have hunted Lion but never succeeded; this year I believe I will. I have shot most of the more common Plains Game. I live on a farm, I own my own business, I owe nothing to anyone. My background as a young man was in uniform. Satisfied? Do you want my shirt size too?

Now that doesn't make me an "expert" (someone was deriding me as an 'expert from nowhere') and it doesn't give me greater rights to speak my mind than anyone else. In fact I know that there are a lot of people on this web site who have infinitly more experience than me. But I'll say my piece and I'll listen with respect to someone else who has something to say (even if I think it's crap) even if he only picked up a rifle for the first time a year ago.

What I won't do, because I think it's gutless, witless, clueless, brainless and pointless is just put my brain in neutral and agree whatever is being said: I think people do that because they just can't be bothered to reach into themselves.

So, you don't like me because I don't agree with what you say and I don't much like you lot because I would have to look hard to find a worse welcome in my lifetime. May I never walk into your campfires after a hard day hunting in the hills.

Not interested in your shirt size (although your hat size seems to be an extra large), but curious if you own a double and if so what kind?

Sincerely,

Loon aka Bigot aka Nut aka Nazi aka Bozo

I'll disagree with you on a few things.

Firstly, I don't see everyone on AR following everyone else like Sheep. If they did, then why do I (and others) get into some very spirited debates.

"A big bunch of nasty bigots who can't wait to get their claws into someone who doesn't follow the same slavish ideas that they hold."

Yes, the same applies to most forums - similar people collect together.

However, if I disagree with you or anyone else on AR (or any other forum for that matter), and I can be bothered, then I will call you on it. No ifs, buts or maybe's.

And I know plenty of others on here who will do the same.

So don't lump us all together.

Oh, and from what I have read, I think Terry seems to be writing from not very personal experiences - not a good move in this field.


What's your experience on DR's so we know you are coming from a level of knowledge and are not just another re hasher of interet fiction ? I think that is a fair question of others (and me) to ask on this type of subject.

Afrique,

You are correct that everyone has opinions. It is whether they can back that opinion up with fact or first hand knowledge that makes their views credible or not.

Wieland is a writer whom we all have read. I, like Mac, tehd to agree with him more than I disagree with him. But not on this issue.

You seem to draw the conclusion that the reason for such a "one sided" response is because he is an American maker. The reason you did not seem to consider is thatperhaps Wieland is flat out wrong.

The "bandwaggoners" here have, almost to a man, owned, shot and hunted with Searcy rifles. IN addition, you assume that the voices in support of Searcy are from destitute Americans unable to afford English or European doubles. Far from it.

I am curious whether you base your views on Searcy from personal experience or third hand lore that in the end has all but been proven to be untrue.

Wieland was on the Cal Rigby Bandwagon, extolling the virtues of this masterpiece - until last year. He had one of their rifles provided to him (unclear whether he was given the rifle or bought it - a subject in the current lawsuit).

Last year he claims his visit to their shop revealed spit, wax and bailing wire methods. Now, what changed? His prior opinion was glowing.He apparently never visited their facility before, yet still rendered that high praise.

Wieland has never visited Butch's shop, has never talked to the man, and by all accounts has never so much as shot a Searcy. The opinion he offers as expert is based on gossip. I suppose if heever gets aroud to visiting Butch's he may well have an epiphany similar to the one he had with Rigby.

When a gunwriterwith Wieland's clout comes out with an opinion in a book that has no credibility to it, ir does an extreme disservice to the huting community. There are some expectations that one of Wieland's position and status would adhere to some basic standards of journalism and honesty. For him to pass judgment with no real basis is dishonest, at best.

The people here put Wieland's experience with double rifles to shame. You can discount their views all you want, but you cannot discount their experience.

You are doing yourself a great disservice to assume that the members here are a bunch of flag-flying, destitute American rubes. And whether you realize it or not, that was the wide brush you wielded here.

By the way, we are at somewhat of a disadvantage since you don't say where you call home. Care to share?

Well stated Jim!!

I did not read the Nº2 book , but, if it is like Mr. Searcy describes.... Mr. Wieland must let that B. Searcy clients talk about their rifles and experiences otherwise make his own experience with a B. Searcy rifle and later write a report , as gentleman is the less that he must to do, he cant speak about B.Searcy rifles if he never used or had one. I know a lot of a....s that destroy guns all days with wrong handloads and start to talk B.S. about that gun brand..or maybe T.W. is triying to promote His new book like in a reality show...
Imagine... T. Wieland, B. Searcy, Mr. Miller, and as special guess Mr. Peter Hambrusch in the same house !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Afrique:
Well, well, well. Afrique here. The guy you like to hate. What a sorry shower of people I'm finding. A friend of mine told me to look at this site because I might find it interesting and because, he said, it was filled with folks who knew about guns and had an opinion and might appreciate some debate.

And what do I find? A big bunch of nasty bigots who can't wait to get their claws into someone who doesn't follow the same slavish ideas that they hold.

Take a minute to have a read through some of bile that followed my post, because I had the cheek to say something different from what everyone else was saying. See if you feel a little bit ashamed.

Rosco started with a rather derisory conclusion that it makes him laugh when an 'expert appears out of nowhere.' Who's the expert? This is opinion.

True, I was encouraged by MacD37, who gave an elequent rebuttal to what I said. Fair enough MacD37. I don't agree with you but no matter, you expressed yourself well.

Then we see the first signs of the loons: "Welcome to the forum Terry!" followed by "Yah, fess up to who you are!"

Idaho Sharpshooter climbs on the bandwagon: he recognises Terry becasue of the stilted prose and becasue of his whining and says Afrique is an ill-suiting to an adult male (this is from a guy who calls himself "Idaho Sharpshooter"?!?!).

Then Mauser93 tunes in to the conspiracy theory, also convinced that the post is from gutless Terry in disguise. He makes some sort of veiled threats.

And so on. What a collection of nuts!

What is wrong with you people? Why are you so easily led? Why can't you tolerate anyone else thinking differently than you and why do you want to crush what they say and think? If my history serves me right, a bunch of people in Berlin in the 1930's had a pretty similar level of tolerance to anyone who didn't bend over and accept what they believed was the right message.

OK, for the record, I am not Terry Weiland, I have never met Terry Weiland and I wouldn't recognise Terry Weiland if I fell over him in the street. I'll tell you what though, I'm starting to like him more and more after listening to the sh*t coming out of some of you bozos.

I am a hunter. I have been hunting for over 25 years. I have been on a number of safaris in a number of countries in Africa. These have been safaris in the wild, not shooting hapless creatures in a fenced enclosure in South Africa. I have shot Elephant and Buffalo and Leopard and Hippo and I have been charged and nearly killed in Africa. I have hunted Lion but never succeeded; this year I believe I will. I have shot most of the more common Plains Game. I live on a farm, I own my own business, I owe nothing to anyone. My background as a young man was in uniform. Satisfied? Do you want my shirt size too?

Now that doesn't make me an "expert" (someone was deriding me as an 'expert from nowhere') and it doesn't give me greater rights to speak my mind than anyone else. In fact I know that there are a lot of people on this web site who have infinitly more experience than me. But I'll say my piece and I'll listen with respect to someone else who has something to say (even if I think it's crap) even if he only picked up a rifle for the first time a year ago.

What I won't do, because I think it's gutless, witless, clueless, brainless and pointless is just put my brain in neutral and agree whatever is being said: I think people do that because they just can't be bothered to reach into themselves.

So, you don't like me because I don't agree with what you say and I don't much like you lot because I would have to look hard to find a worse welcome in my lifetime. May I never walk into your campfires after a hard day hunting in the hills.

Yet another good laugh.....I am impressed with your second post. I have seen people throw a turd in the puch bowl but you must be the first to turn around afterwards and take a drink. Good show!

You see I have been a member of AR for a long time. It is not the first time I have seen people like you join the forum for the sole purpose of causing problems. Seems to be happening rather frequently on the Double rifle forum and they seem to have a common thread....Terry Weiland!

So as stated in my original post to you, Welcome to AR. But don't think you will be able to post this type of bunk here and not get called out. Good debate is common here, and welcomed. However I recomend you build some credibility or all us bozos light you up like the 4th of July!

I expect your time her will be short since we don't match your 25 years of african experience. Come to think of it, you should write a book like Terry did

You will get bored fast I expect and go back to work at MacDonalds (you mention wearing a uniform your youth) where you can drink Coke with your friends.

Cheers!

it's tough to put much stock in someone who can't spell simple words or compose a grammatically correct sentence.
You could at least have said, "I'm english..." or posted a geographical location.

Rich

Be happy, most people of your ilk spend a lifetime without garnering as much attention as you have here in just a few days.

quote:

Originally posted by Guillermo Amestoy:
Imagine... T. Wieland, B. Searcy, Mr. Miller, and as special guess Mr. Peter Hambrusch in the same house !!!

I love it!!! If you can sell the idea to a network I'll be a faithful viewer!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:I love it!!! If you can sell the idea to a network I'll be a faithful viewer!!!
Brett

The tv Guy will say; Mr. Wieland you are nominated !!! Mr. Miller & Hambrush you pass to the next........

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:

quote:

Originally posted by Afrique:
Well, well, well. Afrique here. The guy you like to hate. What a sorry shower of people I'm finding. A friend of mine told me to look at this site because I might find it interesting and because, he said, it was filled with folks who knew about guns and had an opinion and might appreciate some debate.

And what do I find? A big bunch of nasty bigots who can't wait to get their claws into someone who doesn't follow the same slavish ideas that they hold.

Take a minute to have a read through some of bile that followed my post, because I had the cheek to say something different from what everyone else was saying. See if you feel a little bit ashamed.

Rosco started with a rather derisory conclusion that it makes him laugh when an 'expert appears out of nowhere.' Who's the expert? This is opinion.

True, I was encouraged by MacD37, who gave an elequent rebuttal to what I said. Fair enough MacD37. I don't agree with you but no matter, you expressed yourself well.

Then we see the first signs of the loons: "Welcome to the forum Terry!" followed by "Yah, fess up to who you are!"

Idaho Sharpshooter climbs on the bandwagon: he recognises Terry becasue of the stilted prose and becasue of his whining and says Afrique is an ill-suiting to an adult male (this is from a guy who calls himself "Idaho Sharpshooter"?!?!).

Then Mauser93 tunes in to the conspiracy theory, also convinced that the post is from gutless Terry in disguise. He makes some sort of veiled threats.

And so on. What a collection of nuts!

What is wrong with you people? Why are you so easily led? Why can't you tolerate anyone else thinking differently than you and why do you want to crush what they say and think? If my history serves me right, a bunch of people in Berlin in the 1930's had a pretty similar level of tolerance to anyone who didn't bend over and accept what they believed was the right message.

OK, for the record, I am not Terry Weiland, I have never met Terry Weiland and I wouldn't recognise Terry Weiland if I fell over him in the street. I'll tell you what though, I'm starting to like him more and more after listening to the sh*t coming out of some of you bozos.

I am a hunter. I have been hunting for over 25 years. I have been on a number of safaris in a number of countries in Africa. These have been safaris in the wild, not shooting hapless creatures in a fenced enclosure in South Africa. I have shot Elephant and Buffalo and Leopard and Hippo and I have been charged and nearly killed in Africa. I have hunted Lion but never succeeded; this year I believe I will. I have shot most of the more common Plains Game. I live on a farm, I own my own business, I owe nothing to anyone. My background as a young man was in uniform. Satisfied? Do you want my shirt size too?

Now that doesn't make me an "expert" (someone was deriding me as an 'expert from nowhere') and it doesn't give me greater rights to speak my mind than anyone else. In fact I know that there are a lot of people on this web site who have infinitly more experience than me. But I'll say my piece and I'll listen with respect to someone else who has something to say (even if I think it's crap) even if he only picked up a rifle for the first time a year ago.

What I won't do, because I think it's gutless, witless, clueless, brainless and pointless is just put my brain in neutral and agree whatever is being said: I think people do that because they just can't be bothered to reach into themselves.

So, you don't like me because I don't agree with what you say and I don't much like you lot because I would have to look hard to find a worse welcome in my lifetime. May I never walk into your campfires after a hard day hunting in the hills.

Yet another good laugh.....I am impressed with your second post. I have seen people throw a turd in the puch bowl but you must be the first to turn around afterwards and take a drink. Good show!

You see I have been a member of AR for a long time. It is not the first time I have seen people like you join the forum for the sole purpose of causing problems. Seems to be happening rather frequently on the Double rifle forum and they seem to have a common thread....Terry Weiland!

So as stated in my original post to you, Welcome to AR. But don't think you will be able to post this type of bunk here and not get called out. Good debate is common here, and welcomed. However I recomend you build some credibility or all us bozos light you up like the 4th of July!

I expect your time her will be short since we don't match your 25 years of african experience. Come to think of it, you should write a book like Terry did

You will get bored fast I expect and go back to work at MacDonalds (you mention wearing a uniform your youth) where you can drink Coke with your friends.

Cheers!

Roscoe,

You give credit where perhaps credit is not due. Here is Afrique's quote: "I am a hunter. I have been hunting for over 25 years. I have been on a number of safaris in a number of countries in Africa."

JPK

Good on Butch Searcy for starting this thread. Like many of you, I have never owned one of Butch's rifles, nor have I hunted with one. I have seen many in the field--used by very satisfied customers. My partner, Dave Fulson, has one and it's a dandy, a tight, good-handling boxlock .470. The "famous PH" mentioned earlier, who I pictured and referred to in a recent book, is Johan Caliz, a serious (and experienced) elephant hunter, and also a rifle nut with multiple good doubles (including English guns) and excellent bolt actions to choose from. When I hunted with him in 2007 he chose to carry a really gorgeous Searcy sidelock. I don't know Butch well, but I've known him for a long time; he's an honest man and a solid gunmaker. He not only makes a double rifle that is worth the money, but he is to a great degree responsible for the comeback of the double rifle. I could be off the mark on this, but I'm not far off: I suspect Butch Searcy has made more double rifles than any other one man alive today. We can all pick favorites, and well we should, but Butch Searcy deserves huge credit not just for his work, but for what he has done to bring the double rifle back to where it is today.

Craig,

You're not far off the mark at all. I'll take the views of a hunter that writes over a writer that shoots any day of the week. And us retired Army officers aren't known for giving retired Marine officers much slack...

Afrique, How many times have you shot a DR yet alone a Searcy? Do you you own any DR's? Any Searcys? In your vast African experiences did you use a DR?

Dear New Friends,

Thank you for another wad of praise and congratulation.

A number of points were raised, which I'll try and respond to: -

1. I was rapped over the knuckles for a couple of spelling mistakes. Very bad of me and I'll try and do better. I understand that a wrongly spelt word or a split infinitive invalidates any opinion.

2. Do I have a double rifle? Yes, I have a Merkel 470 NE. I have not owned a Butch Searcy rifle.

3. Who am I? I gave what I thought was good description of who I was in my last post. On reflection, that seems pretty pointless as the default belief on the site seems to be that it was a pack of lies. It therefore doesn't matter if I say I have been hunting for 25 years and have been to Africa several times, or if I say I have been hunting for 75 years and regularly hunt on the moon. Believe what you will.

3. Who am I am where am I? I can't see the relevance of this but here goes: I am Welsh-Irish by descent, I have houses in the US and England, my wife is half South African, my eldest son is marrying a French girl and my second son is marrying a Canadian, I hold a British passport. Make what you want of that. Do not ask for my actual address; all hate mail via the site please.

4. Craig Boddington. Thanks for dropping in to the discussion although how do we know you're not Terry Weiland?

5. Uniform. I was in the Navy, not MacDonalds as Rosco hopes. Sorry I won't see you at the next MacDonalds vets reunion Rosco.

6. And Butch Searcy rifles; let's not forget these. If you clear the red mist from your eyes and re-read the original post, you'll see that I have not spoken badly of Butch Searcy or his rifles. I have mixed fact with opinion: -

(a) I said his rifles were cheap. Well, in terms of double rifles, they are not expensive and they are not priced mid-range, so that makes them cheap. Sorry, inexpensive.

(b) In fact, if you dig deep enough, you'll even see the faint glimmer of a compliment, when I said that if you want a cheap rifle that will do the job then buy one from Butch Searcy.

(c) I said I preferred Merkel double rifles, which is obvious because I have bought one.

My web-lynching is solely due to me placing myself on the other side of the argument and by giving an expanded explanation, and support, for the two points that were partially made by Terry Weiland (albeit in a clumsy manner that he probably regrets). The first was that he doesn't like Searcy rifles, the second was that that English doubles are the best you can get. I support his right to say the first and I agree with the second.

7. Rigby rifles. People seem to be dragging in the Rigby question and Terry Weiland's apparent badness in revising his views on Rigby's (What! Someone changing their viewpoint as they go through life! How treacherous!. I'll be glad to brighten your day with my thoughts on that too, before you all vote to get me thrown off the site.

Have a happy day

Afrique the Terrible

Afrique,

1. Welcome to the forum.

2. I assure you that is in fact Craig Boddington.

3. We have people regularly come on here incognito and stir trouble, so forgive some of the sceptics as anyone without any posts that comes off (even if only preceived)as controversial receives scepticism.

4. I agree that the British and SOME of the TOP
German makers are the best double rifle makers in the world. That said I have handled Butch's rifles and he makes a very fine rifle for the price. Have you ever handled or shot one? I think this is a very pertinant question.

5. "Whenever I see a thread that is so blatantly one-sided, it makes me want to get on the other side, sometimes for no other reason than to bring some balance into the argument." This statement would seem as if you are only here to stir things up. One would believe that was your intent when you follow it up with inflamatory comments on your first ever post and start attacking people with comments like:
"I'll never read his book!" (With a mind that produces that sort of logic, the guy probably couldn't read it anyway)." or "Why pay all that money for an English Double?". Here's the answer: it's because ninety-nine times out of a hundred the person saying that can't afford one." or "If you want a cheap gun that you are going to shoot a few times a year and if money is a constraint then by one built by Butch Searcy. It will do the job." To an impartial person it would seem you are in fact implying that Butch's doubles aren't good enough for serious or frequent use.

6. "If you want a gun that is an object of great beauty and mystique, that has been serving hunters for over a hundred years, that has reached a pinnacle of technical excellence, that will never let you down and which will appreciate in value each and every year: buy one of the great English double rifles." Agreed!

7. I think people's beef with Terry is that he admits he's never visited their factory, owned, or hunted with one of Butch's rifles and then condemns them in a very public way which could seriously impact Butch's business. If true that would infact seem rather poor behaviour even though he is entitled to his oppinion. Also the fact Terry states he couldn't find anyone who liked their Searcy or liked them is rather strange as we can find so many current or previous owners on this forum that speak VERY highly of them. It would lead one to conclude he probably really didn't do much if any research and just made that statement. Again if true that represents rather 3rd rate research.

8. Before you assume I have no beef with Terry Weiland in general. I own and have read his first book and enjoyed it. I would probably own and have read his second one if I hadn't read Mr. Boddington's second addition and liked it and found it much more comprihensive than Mr. Weiland's first offering.

My 2 cents.

Brett

cheap, you see; has a negative connotation here in the colonies.
One might better consider that the british doubles are vastly over-priced. They have not proven to kill Dangerous Game any better than an $800 bolt action rifle. From a practical standpoint...

Rich

My problem with Weiland's criticism of Searcy doubles has nothing to do with his right to do it. What I do have a problem with is when any writer criticizes a product and doesn't back up those charges with facts. That to me is the height of poor journalism.

I have ordered two rifles from Butch. The first was many years ago and was one of his very early Browning actioned rifles in 470. He tried twice to get the stock dimensions right and failed both times. I even sent another double that fit me well to him as a guide. Still didn't come any where near fitting. I sold it with out ever shooting it. You would think that experience would make me an anti-butch camp member. but, I am far from that. A few years ago I ordered another 470, this time in the Deluxe grade. This rifle fit perfectly, obviously Butch has mastered the stock fitting phase of building a rifle. I was in a hurry to get it for an elephant hunt and butch rushed it out. When I got it I was very pleased with all aspects of the gun except it didn't come with a front sight! I got a chuckle out of that and I will bet Butch had a red face over it. I have had to send my latest rifle back for some re-regulation and Butch did it in record fast time and at no charge. I will recommend his rifles to any one. At least the later models. Even H&H has the occasional rifle sent back to correct some problem.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
My problem with Weiland's criticism of Searcy doubles has nothing to do with his right to do it. What I do have a problem with is when any writer criticizes a product and doesn't back up those charges with facts.

.... I was in a hurry to get it for an elephant hunt and butch rushed it out. When I got it I was very pleased with all aspects of the gun except it didn't come with a front sight......



Was April 1 ????

Even H&H has the occasional rifle sent back to correct some problem.

465H&H

I agree with You, I think that the key is the word "cheap" rifle, a big mistake from Mr. Weiland, and talk about a gun that never used or owned.