I have no idea why anyone disagreed with me on the subject..All I said was that used within it capabilities the 223 or 222 killed deer very efficiently..Beyond its capabilities it becomes a crippler of deer. I don't need to read any posts or argue such a subject with anyone so have a good nuther 8 pages.

Just watched a show on Versus...not sure which. Some guy shooting an AR 5.56 took an auodad at 190 yards. DRT. I would shoot a deer with a 223 under "reasonable" conditions, but I would never shell out money on that kind of a hunt without something alot heavier - no less than my 30-06.

Friend of mine just came by to pick up the steel arm I built to hang the scales at our cold storage facility. This is for weighing all the does we are shooting in the county this year on MLD permits. We got to talking about rifles and loads, what have you.

I told him I was loading up to shoot does with my .223 theis year, and he said that is about all he ever uses for does. I ask him what load he used and he said just that cheap Remington 55 in the green box, factory loads. Ask him how many he had shot with it, and he just got a glazed look in his eye. Said he had no idea, had been shooting that rifle since he was 11, but wished he had kept track of it. Said there was no telling how many it had killed, and it killed does just as good as anything else he owned. Said he really liked it for culling because it dropped them right there without bothering the other deer too much.

Guess the verdict is in on the 55 Remington, and it is O Tay, Spanky. Shot 15 of those yesterday to free up cases, shoulda just capped some does with them. Gonna have to take back those bad things I said about them.

JTPinTX---You and your friend must not have looked at the box. They never put a picture of a doe on a box. But the good news is your friend buys factory so you have a source for brass--he'd probably be glad to save it for you.

JTPinTx--If you have jackrabbits on your place, and I can't imagine not, would make for great target practice for your daughter. Go out at night with spotlight and have at them. I find cast bullets work best for this as they make less noise (shooting from inside a pickup noise is a big factor).

JTP,
what are you going to load first?

It may be a shock to some here, but Federal Ammunition has a caliber/cartridge selection for game on their web site and it includes the 223 for standard deer. See link below. I live in the northern part of lower Michigan and our deer may not qualify as standard deer, but I would have no issue shooting one with a 223. I know it would kill them with no problems.

http://www.federalpremium.com/...mendation/rifle.aspx

I did a little research re test lab type penetration tests. There's a lot more out there, but I don't have time to read it all and sort out the good stuff from the not-so-good. These seemed OK and relevant.

Found some interesting links. The first one is how to make ballistic gel

The second one has a lot of info. Good affirmation of the Federal ammo too.

The third one - I found the comments about the 7.62x39 interesting, and especially the comments about the 55gr Winchester bullet.

Anyway, it's FYI. I'm sure real advocates will find a way to say their results are different or it doesn't make any difference.

I just think it's interesting to compare real lab or otherwise objective results to what is said herein. You have to scroll way down in the third one to see the comments and pictures re the 55gr Win.

KB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ical-test.html

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-...l/tactical-test.html


http://230grain.com/showthread...Analysis-Test-(Adpat)

Yea I did lab work and shot some Jello deer to see if I really had been killing them. Needed lab work to verify my experiences. The jello deer all melted before I got them home.

Yea, I once had a buddy who was a jerk, and he sighted in his 300WM on moose. He killed a moose almost every year, and depending on where the bullet hit in comparison to where he remembered his aim, he adjusted the scope accordingly, and did it again next year. A box of bullets lasted 15+ years.

I think he told me that to aggrivate me, and it sure did work, but with him it may have been true. Little chance of that with some who post here.

Just to help out, I'll post some of the choice words as a quote from the last link above:

"Because we'd been punching clean holes through the boards, it seemed logical to make the most of the relatively clean second wall by choosing a round from which we didn't expect a great deal of expansion: Winchester Ranger 55-grain softpoints. I'm not sure why we thought these rounds would hold together through all the walls, because it sure seems like a silly assumption given what happened."



KB

Second article was pretty good, seemed to give a fair shake at what to expect from the different bullets Good side by side comparison bullet to bullet, their tendencies and capabilities in an applicable medium.

Third article? Interesting for sure, but very little real world relevance to deer hunting. Good to know for defense and combat shooting, but more of a test designed to make bullets fail under bad conditions. I doubt many .223 shooters are trying to make bullets fail when they shoot deer. Maybe if the deer were in my neighbors house building a car bomb it would matter, but generally I don't try to shoot deer behind barriers. If I need to I have some black tip AP 30-06 rounds I can use.

Not to make light of it, but going through two layers of drywall is like busting through a ribcage, and exactly the point where I DO want a bullet to come apart when shooting deer broadside. Lungs are not very dense and damage easily once you get through the ribs. I don't know, it just seemed to me testing a bullet for something I have no intention on doing with it.

JTP,
Yea, I figured that rationale was coming re the third link, and drywall. I forget, are you the guy who suggested he might test some bullets in wet newspaper? Real world relevance??? Yea, great concept, like 40gr BT at 281 yds, and explosive varmint bullets on deer are real world relevant?

Quote: "I doubt many .223 shooters are trying to make bullets fail when they shoot deer."

While that is a reasonable statment, let me restate it from my view: I doubt many .223 shooters care or know that their bullet is likely to fail, by design, when they shoot deer.

I partially agree with you about the tests through the drywall, yet it did demonstrate what the mfg also says about the bullet. It's a very fragile bullet, and the probability of the claimed perfect mushroom under the hide is nill. It kills deer just like a varmint bullet is expected, by exploding into a million pieces in the lungs, if it makes it through that far. A shoulder hit is likely to result in a bad wound and lost deer, for example. It's the same type of bullet I saw a doe neck shot, and it worked poorly for the job.

Think about it - in comparison - even a 6mm BT or Sierra pro hunter most likely will make a nice hole through a lot more than three layers of sheet rock, maybe not entirely entact, but enough to go straight-line a long way. It's an easy test to duplicate. Sheet rock pieces are readily found, if it's necessary to test what should be obviously predictable.

I picked the third link above mostly because I liked the quote specifically about the 55gr Winchester bullet. I couldn't have said it better myself. I especially liked the word "silly".

KB

Well, since I don't have the time or resources to spend on "real" ballistics gel, and all the temp/calibration problems associated with it, wet newsprint is about the best I can do before I start live animal testing. Helluva lot more relevant than drywall. At this point though I think I will just skip it and go kill deer.

I'm not going to get down and wrestle in the mud on this one. I have better things to do than fight on the internet.

Yea, I know what you mean. My deer hunting plans haven't worked out this year so far, and I'm bored. However, what you consider a fight, I consider a discussion.

The season isn't over yet, and during the time from mid-November through the end of the year may be the most productive around here anyway. I hope to get a few more trips and test my new Grendel after the bears have started their winters rest. If so, I hope to report results elsewhere, not on this spoofy thread.

I didn't mean to imply that your wet newsprint was not relevant. I was actually looking forward to the reported results.

I hope your season goes well.

KB

General season opens Saturday, and I have some wheat fields to go watch. Gonna load .223's tonight, norther blowing in today. Maybe I can shoot some tomorrow eveing before football, Friday for sure on the back side of the front. Time to quit talking and start doing.

Tell you what KB, I'll shoot some paper for you. I have a barn to shoot thought here that is pretty protected, I can shoot about 65 yards through the barn and around 20 out the back. Say a test at 80-85 yards or so, just about right for your "average" .223 shot.

I had a box with a trash bag (to contain water) and about 70% full of stacked newspaper (have to leave room for it to expand) just sitting here waiting for me to do something with it. I just took the box and filled it with water, and set it up on my stand out there to be soaking in. I have several "varmint" rounds already loaded, and if I can load a couple of the Winchester 64's and Nosler 60 grain solid base at lunch I will shoot a test at break this afternoon. Might be tonight before I can cut the box open and do measurements, but I'll see what I can do. I have a couple Barnes 53's to stick in there as well. If I can get it all together I will pop a reference round of 7x57 in it with a 150 NBT.

"Let me restate from my view: I doubt that many .223 shooters care or know that their bullet is likely to fail by design when they shoot a deer" Kabluey. Kabluey, do you really have a view? Gatogordo laid down a straight forth offer--basically put your money where your mouth is--put up or shut up. Pretty simple. If that bullet is so likely to fail if you really believed your own BS babble, you'd jump on that offer. An easy $1000. Most likely would mean better than 50%. If there was a casino where I'd most likely win, I'd be a professional gambler. Many people have told of repeated success and you call us liars---but obviously you don't even believe all the hyperbole you have been putting out for years. You have no view--you are inconsistent. Not too long ago you admitted to NO experience nor had you even seen it done. Now you come up with the nightmares about witnessing your buddy try it. Go collect that easy $1000 from Gato and then come back with a little credence to back up your hyperbole. BTW those "varmint" bullets you mention aren't really suitable for a lot of my varmint hunting. Shooting out of a pickup at jackrabbits they are too loud and much more power than needed. Cast bullets about 1000 fps slower work much better.

cm, quit your whining and babbeling. It's embarrassing


JTP,
I'm interested in the results. I kinda think the wet newspaper concoction will be almost as good as the gel, maybe better, and you can reuse it for several shots.

A quick review of your selection - in the second link above I think they reported good results with those (or very similar) bullets. I wish you could test one of cm's honkey varmint bullets for comparison.

I don't call the Win 64gr or the Barnes TSX "varmint" bullets, although Barnes does make a grenade bullet - I don't know which you have there. Also, I dont know about the solid base, but I think it's sorta in between the explosive varmint bullets and those more likely to hold together. It will be interesting because it's old tech, and not bonded.

KB

Okay, I shot the test at lunch. Here is what I shot:

2 rounds of approximately 15 year old original Barnes X, 53 grain.
2 rounds Win 64 powerpoint
2 rounds 60 grain Nosler solid base
1 round 52 AMAX
1 round 52 Speer TNT
1 round 50 Sierra Blitzking
1 round 55 Rem PSP
1 round 50 Dogtown

First three should be good deer bullets, last five are varmint bullets for reference.

No data yet, will have to wait untill later tonight for me to dissect the box in the garage. A quick "peek" into the layers says the Barnes wins (no suprise there), but the 64 powerpoint not far behind at all. Both are around 11"-12" into the wetpack newspaper.

"cm,quit your whining and babbeling. It's embarassing" Kabluey. Yes I'm sure you are embarassed when someone points out all your lies and inconsistent BS. Quit doing it, when you are in a hole quit digging, then you wont be embarassed. I only pointed out what the whole board already knew.

I have been supportive of the use of the 222 and 223 on deer in this thread, but make no mistake in that I said only when used within its killing capabilities..I have seen both fail when bullets blew up on the shoulder joints or shoulder blades and it took follow up shots to clean up the mess..One needs to be very careful with shot placement and choice of bullets IMO and even more so at close range where bullets take a beating..I don't recommend the 22s for everyone, but I have had good luck with them over the years, but then I had good luck with the 22 L.R. on my dads ranch in Mexico, feeding a fenceing crew with deer meat. Again I used the 22 L.R. within its 50 yard capability, used head and sometimes double tapped them behind the shoulder with my Win. 63 22..then did not push them, the usually fell over within 5 or 10 minutes...I see these 22s as subsistence hunting calibers for those that live on ranches or in a rural community where they have access to many deer and can hunt accordingly..

For a hunter paying to hunt and traveling wherever the 22s are a poor choice as you may have to take the shot that is offered and sometimes thats not a good shot choice, so I would recommend a .270 and up for that.

One thing for sure in this thread, common since is the key.

For carpetman, common cents is the key.

You're dreamin cm, but then even old farts need a dream.

KB

Yea you need lots of common "cents" I don't have a lot of pennies.

Hey KB, just to give you a frame of reference for what I did today, here is a .308 bullet test I did a couple years ago using the same method. Same style test, set up the same way. Look at it and note nothing went over 14-15 inches. My box only holds about 17 inches of newspaper after it expands.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...461004601#9461004601

Last year I did another test using several different calibers including 30-06 and 260. If I remember correctly (I will have to look at my notes tonight), the only bullet that has ever made it out the back of the box was a 140 grain 6.5 out of a 260 or 6.5x55. Might have been a 115 TSX out of a 25-06, I will have to check. All of those three dug real deep though. I will try and post that test up later as well, just for reference.

I did screw up today though, had my paper soaking in the box and forgot to poke a hole in the bottom to let the excess water out before I shot. Barnes and Win 64 should be fine (above water level), but that first Nosler solid base slammed into a wall of water. Hope it didn't mess things up too bad.

All right, here we go.

I dug out another old test using a 30-06, .270, .260, and 25-06. All of those bullets went 10-12.5 inches deep, using everything from Barnes and Partitions, to NBT's. On that test I did shoot a 55 V-Max out of a .223 and it went 6.5" deep, retaining 19 grains. That would fall in very nicely with todays test results.

Tonights test, some suprises, some not. Big winner and big looser were expected. Some in the middle though, weren't what you would expect. First number is depth of penetration, second number (in parathesis)is retained weight in grains. Rifle was a CZ-527 (21" bbl), test shot at about 80 yards.

Barnes 53 original X- 11.25"(35), 11.25"(34.6)
Nosler 60 solid base- 10.5"(35.3), 9.75"(34.9)
Winch. 64 Power Point- 9.25"(49.7), 9.0"(46.9)
Midway Dogtown 50 spit- 6.5"(28.0)
Remington 55 PSP- 6"(33.0)
Sierra 50 Blitzking- 5.5"(18.3)
Speer 52 TNT HP- 5.0"(14.6)
Hornady 52 AMAX- 4.25" (fragments only)

Barnes is all we have come to expect of years of high $$$ mono technology, too bad they don't shoot woth a crap in my 12 twist CZ-527, or my 40 XBKS .220 Swift. That is why I still have a few after 15 years.

Nosler Solid Base penetrated deeper that the 64 powerpoint and had a final weight as good as the Barnes. No slouch at all, this little bullet. Pretty serious wound channel in the middle, damage where you need it.

Winchester 64 Power Point had the best final weight, and made really nice mushrooms that didn't look like they might come apart. I think overall this is my best pick because it shot very well for me and I think it is a little more solid than the Nosler, just my impression. Near toss up between it and the Solid Base.

Dogtown 50 suprised me a little, beating out the Remington 55 by a touch. Wonder who makes this bullet for Midway? Varmint bullet, but I wouldn't worry a whole lot shooting a deer with it, knowing how many have been killed with the Remington.

Last three are really varmint bullets, the AMAX blowing up completely. No suprise there.

Just wanted to post here and see if Kaboom (The ole flock shooter) will feel the need to be the last post. Wait a second .....here it comes in 5,4,3,2,1,........

Teancum--I've noticed that too.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/201
Some testing of the 22 ESP Raptors. They are out performing the other 22s on the market in terms of wound channel and penetration. Thought that this could add to the debate. Looking at the results it seems the 22 Raptor even in 40 grains could take a deer and kill it quickly.

quote; You must be one of those pansy girly men. Everyone knows the 30-06 should be the minimum for a true man to hunt deer.

the 30-06 is over bore for white tail. i use the .260 remington.. the 30-06 is ok.. for elk