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One of Us |
We shoot the 40g NBT for the velocity out of the .223's to flatten the trajectory at those longer distances. We've gone to the 50g NBT in the 22-250's. It's very hard to judge distances out here in Idaho if you don't have a range finder and the time to use it, due to the flat wide open terrain in which we hunt, that flat shooting helps you hit things. Most of the critters we've taken have seemed to be in the 200-350 yard range. Perhaps that's the comfort zone that they feel they need to have for protection. I'm trying to remember looking at the wounds over the past years and most of the time there seems to be a past through. Perhaps a few did not make it all the way through but I'm not sure on the count. And I do recall one shoulder blade hit and I think that one was one that didn't penetrate all the way. One of our sons shot that buck at about 250 yards and it went down after a couple of wobbly steps according to his story. He came home bloody, tired and wet after waiting out a rain storm in his truck and then opening the door when it stopped, walking about 50 yards to look down into a bowl and spotting this buck. He's the same kid that went goose hunting in the morning before his college class and had spent time scouting out where some geese had been roosting on a pond. He figured out which way they would fly out in the mornings and got there early one morning hiding behind an embankment. When the flock took off with some low flying right over him, he shot the first one with a Browning A5 Mag, it folded as it was only about 20-25 yards, swung and shot a second, watched it fold, and hoping for a triple on geese swung on the third. Just as he was shooting at the third one the first one, falling from the sky, hit him in the shoulder and spun him enough to miss the 3rd shot. We still tease him about that one. | |||
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You're correct as far as the statement goes but if you blow up the picture on their website you can see that the jacket towards the base is much thicker relative to similar 40 gr cup and core bullets. That and the solid base make all the difference in the world. Look guys, you can post all the pictures and quote all the marketing verbiage you want; none of it disputes the actual kill record in the field. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I grabbed an older box of 40 grn NBT, lot number appears to be KR30D1. I gound one down, and it looks like a mini version of what Tiggertate posted. These have an orange tip, the photo someone posted looks red, more like a Horn Vmax. The Nosler is app. .710 OAL, from the base to the lead core is app. .170 thats a thick base and a very thick jacket for a varmint bullet. As I had said, Steve Timm did an article for Varmint Hunter magazine. They pushed those bullets to 4800 fps, they have to be strong to withstand those velocities. I dont do the picture posting thing, but if someone doubts the construction of the bullet, send me a PM and I'll send it to them, they can post picture of it. | |||
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Old box / new box, same SD, which is .114 before rapid expansion, and shedding weight. About the same as a ping pong ball.  Suppose the old version holds weight more than the new ones, as tb40 implies. Say the old version sheds only 75% in the first three inches, compared to the new ones shedding 85% in the same distance. That's a tremendous loss in efectivness and penetration in either case. Kinda rediculous when compared to even the modest 55gr Barnes TSX, which can be counted on to retain all its weight because that's what it's designed to do. Go up to the 6mm BT, different design, and much better weight retained can be expected, compared to the .223 BT. I think it's kinda amusing that there is no limit to the creativity and imagination and rationalizations to justify the use of a varmint bullet, and simply ignore the inevitability of the design. What's even more amusing and amazing is the proclaimed "kill records" and effectivness and perfect mushroomed varmint bullets found under the hide. And the DRT of near DRT deer hit with less than half of the recommended energy, and yet full penetration - astonishing. Kinda makes one wonder - hummm. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Carpetman: This is exactly the argument I was trying os hard to avoid. I am 63 years old and I grew up in NJ. We hunted in NY, NJ, and PA. I started hunting with my dad and in those days, the most popular gun for hunting in the woods was a plain old .35 Remington pump. Rifles weren't legal in Jersey so most often we used rifle slugs, mainly from a 20 gauge. At short woods ranges, they worked really well. I came out to the midwest in the late 60s. My partner used a 25-06 for deer and I used a .243. I wasn't really satisfied with the .243 so I moved up to a .270, then a .280. They worked well on deer. I have killed quite a few deer over these many years. I just purchased a .257 Roberts and, health permitting I want to give that a try this year. To me anyway, hunting deer with a .223 with a 40 grain bullet is more of a stunt. Again, good luck and good hunting. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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KB, I think you are spot on with that comment. MY son filled his doe tag last weekend with a loaded down 85gr TSX out of his 270. Starting velocity is approx 2000 fps and the shot at 100 yards showed classic TSX expansion, and of course the bullet was not recovered. A couple of weeks before he filled his antelope with the same combination, same results.
I disagree with you on this. Shot placement trumps everything. I will take a 223 through the ribs anyday over any cartridge in the wrong place. The 223 works plain and simple. If you choose to deny it, that is your perogative. | |||
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Seafire, You wrote: "and once again, I'll bet this is experiences passed on by an 'expert' who has never used one, to know first hand if it failed or succeeded..." More to the opposite. If I had known better in 1953 I would not have used the 222 on deer. I got a buck but then the next year a 50 yard broadside shot with the 55 gr Sierra Semi-Pt. resulted in the buck running off. We searched for it for all that day and the next. I was better informed and equipped the next year with a 30-06. A man should shoot all the gun at game that he can shoot well. Such a practice will reduce the suffering of the game as it will die faster. Those who shoot big game with tiny bullets are either ill informed or showing off to the unknowing or uncaring. | |||
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The new elk bullet for your .223. | |||
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Nope Energy is required too, or you would be telling your story about the .22 LR. | |||
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Kabluey--Good job of going back and correcting your original post of my using Hornady's--changing it to Winchester. You insult everyones integrity call them liars and then when I post something about you--you call it a red herring and claim foul. I have taken your insults for a couple years and figure you are deserving of anything dished out. I would like to buy you for your real worth and sell you for your self perceived worth. That would be a mighty nice profit I'm sure. | |||
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Dave Bush--Good luck with the .257 Roberts. That's one I have never owned but always thought I'd like it. Should make you a fine rig. You mentioned not liking the .243 and I'm interested in hearing about that. You say you want to avoid argument but make the bold statement that using the .223 and 40 grain bullet is a stunt. I asked where you got that and seem to have nothing to back that up--I'd avoid an argument too if I had no ammunition. | |||
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The question of your integrity is not a red herring - it's the central issue with your posts. Yes, you have been on the receiving end of reasoned argument, and finally insults, and you haven't learned a thing that's worthwhile that I can determine. BTW, where did you get this "insult everyones integrity" thingy? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Conservative Rifleman--Thank you. You are amongst the few to post a bad result. You shot a deer with .222 and it ran off. That begs the questions--where did you hit it? Sounds like a bad spot or you would have found it. Would it have ran off if you were using something else? If it was a bad hit which it sounds like it was, I suspect the same results. | |||
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Kabluey--If you were the teacher, you are correct--I haven't learned a thing. If someone else did they were sure hurting to begin with and now terribly missinformed. | |||
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Obviously you don't know about teancum very well. Not only was the 40gr bullet thingy a stunt, but initiating this thread on that topic was a stunt too. Teancum loves this kind of stuff, and looks for validation and amusment anywhere he can. Stunt: 1. A feat displaying unusual strength, skill, or daring. Something (daring or spectacular) done to attract attention or publicity, etc. 2. (Performing Arts) an acrobatic or dangerous piece of action in a film, television program, etc. 3. (Business / Marketing) anything spectacular or unusual done to gain publicity. Synonyms: feat, act, trick, exploit, deed, tour de force (French), gest (archaic) a bold promotional stunt. Where Dave got that statment from was common sense - knowing the obvious, something you lack and can't understand. It's been explained to you in many ways, but you still act like - where's the problem? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I never made any claims that weren't true, so how can I misinform anyone? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Thanks for the feedback. Just so my position on this is once again clarified, I tend to agree with you about the statment that "the 223 works plain and simple". However, I've also tried to point out that it's not plain and simple. That's because there are many who don't have distinctions of bullet designs, and actually use varmint bullets which are designed to fail for such use, but simply because the 223 works, plain and simple, the fault in judgment doesn't show up as often as the parts to the equation would suggest. It's beyond believability that the 223 has the success rate these guys claim. To listen to them the 223 has a higher success rate than real deer cartridges. What's the probable explanation? Blowhard BS. They live in a different reality, where denial is rampant. That's my belief. What other explanation is there? The failure of the 223 isn't the cartridge itself so much as it is with guys like carpetman and teancum who make outrageous claims. It's one of those things that comes with the 223 - blowhards. That's mostly what I have against the 223, because it's frequently accompanied by bull chit. As explained by conservative rifleman, this is the kind of thing that is not reported by those that use the 223 regularly, and I believe this result is inevitable; not always, but frequently, and more so with the use of a varmint type bullet:
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Interesting information on your surgery there. Thanks for taking the time to do it and give us your results. My experience is that at very high speeds that bullet will fragment as intended and most varmint rigs have a propensity to high velocity loadings for that very purpose. I've shot rockchucks with a .243 using 55g NBT at 4050fps and watched their acrobatics at 150 yards and also shot mule deer at 250-350 yards with the same load and watched them just simply go down. What is really helpful is that with a varmint rig many of us will shoot 250-1000 rounds a year through that outfit where the guy with a 30-06 may shoot a box of ammo every 3-5 years. That usage allows us to become more efficient with that particular shooter and have more confidence when we are shooting deer or elk. The impressive discovery is that at lower velocities the NBT can perform in a different fashion and does so very well. One way to approach this use is to down load the .223 for shots that are relatively close, or another way is to shoot rounds that were initially successful in the varmint hunting arena, only when the target is say 250-375 yards away the velocity of the .223 has slowed down to a velocity that increases it's penetration. It takes a little thinking outside of the "box" as they say to be able to see this application. I don't know or have any experience to see if other manufacturers of .224 bullets (like Hornady) have products that perform in this dual application like the NBT. I think it's another case of finding an ancillary use for a product that wasn't necessarily intended by the manufacturer. We find many products on our shelves today that are effective in uses other than their main line marketing and intended target audience. Thanks for the surgery and hope that all that was ground down was the bullet. | |||
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Some of use shoot our deer rifles hundreds of times a year also. Molon Labe New account for Jacobite | |||
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so you had a failure back in 1953 and 1954? and that therefore reflects your reasoning that it is inadequate in today's world?? I am going to disagree with your conclusions, based on experiences almost 60 years ago... but I am going to do so with respect... you are a gentlemen with mileage under your belt quiet evidently, so far be it from me to show that experience disrespect... we are going to have to beg to differ on this opinion here.... I doubt that Sierra's bullets have the same construction and metallurgy 60 years later than they had in the early 50s... there are also a lot of factors that go into a hit on an animal and the bullet failing to anchor them... I've had 30/06s with 180 grainers, and 300 Win Mag with 200 grainers fail to anchor deer... but that doesn't have me considering them poor choices for deer...I know in the 300 Win Mag, it was a poor choices of bullets, even tho it was factory ammo... some of those losses have led me to learn a lot more about bullet construction, and what there velocity parameters are for their best performance... but in 22 caliber, I'd pick a Hollow Point bullet over say a soft point for deer... I'd also pick a ballistic tip over a V Max, as the Nosler is less fragile.. testing and them learning what the military taught me, about wounds and how to treat them and the medical management of them in the field, has given me definite opinions of what works and what doesn't. riflemen and hunters that can put those bullets in the right spot, and know where they are, are going to be successful with them...other guys are going to have failures to anchor a deer with a 458 Win Mag... There are a lot of variables on this subject to really argue back and forth on a forum...but in the hands of the right people it is not a stunt.. I'm not going to criticize a hunters choice of weapon, ammo etc...on the flip side, I don't understand those that will flame another hunters choice...and then revert to another type of slander, but calling it a stunt when the other guy can actually bring home the venison.... deer season here is 6 weeks, yet the deer herd numbers are way down from days past...but I try to spend as much time in the field as possible, as I hunt close to home also...but each year I probably load up 8 to 10 rifles, with different bullets, calibers, velocities etc... I leave the house with what I am in the mood to carry for the day...or morning...as it is not unusual to go out in the morning... and then in the evening... but nothing is factory ammo traditional... the last big deer I took was a 210 lb blacktail...BIG for a blacktail..that one was shot with a 115 grain HP Speer, fueled by 28 grains of SR 4759, out of a Model 70 Featherweight in 7 x 57... Thats a varmint bullet...but at that MV and the longer shots are 100 to 150 yds in that wooded area, it is more than adequate... did the deer go bang flop? NO... it didn't.. it tripped and stumbled and then rolled down hill for 50 to 60 yds from where it took the bullet... going 50 to 60 yds, a lot of guys would criticize that combo, because it didn't kill the animal instantly on the spot... however post mortum analysis showed that the bullet went thru the right lung and made a mess out of that, had enough mass still left to virtually cut the heart in half, and then expending the rest of its momentum in the left lung on the animal... Well many would think that a heart cut in half and both lungs destroyed, should have killed the animal on the spot...and he not being able to trot or stumble another 40 to 50 yds before collapsing... but that is what happened...and I can guarantee ya, that NO other bullet would have done any more internal damage to that animals vitals than the 115 grain HP did.. hunters don't match the bullet to the game and the environment that they are going to hunt... they just pick a big caliber, a heavy bullet or some super premium one with a big price ( thinking the more ya pay for the bullet, the better it must be), and just think or hope, it will work in all situations... some times it doesn't.. some times it does.. but Teancum's choice of a 40 grain ballistic tip at 3900 fps MV, out of a 223 is a good choice...at 300 yds, or up close... I've tested that bullet out both at high speed and low speeds.. and the low recoil also helps it to be surgically placed by a good shooter.. no one is being forced to carry that combo...but at the same time, the gentleman who is and is having success with it, shouldn't be flamed, because his successes conflicts with someone else's theories, or lack of experiences.... ya know Calhoon bullets pushes the 19 caliber bullets.. and if you read his web site, in NATO tests in searching for a replacement for the 308 as a standard NATO round, it was either the Germans or the British that fielded a 19 caliber, or 4.5mm for testing... it turned out to be the only thing tested that would penetrate a German standard military helmet at 500 or 600 meters... and once again, a 22 Mag will penetrate body armor that will stop a close range 9mm round.. or 357 Magnum, or a 40 S&W.... Ackley found out a 48 grain Win bullet from a 220 Swift would penetrate armor on a WW 2 half track, that an 06 round with an armor piercing bullet failed to.. there are a lot of variables once again...but thinks the experts claim won't work, will end up working just fine.. a guy I know locally has an old Model 54 Winchester in 220 Swift...his dad got it in 1941..and right up until he died in 1976 or so, that rifle took elk, deer and bears every year..it was the only rifle he ever owned, because it did whatever he ever asked it to do.. nowadays people would call that a stunt...but between 1941 and 1976, it just did its job | |||
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I grind bullets all the time, and certainly was no trouble as I was curious. Even though I can now see how the 40 grn worked, it still doesnt have as thick a jacket as the 64 grn Win bullet I tend to use. That bullet was made as a deer bullet, and at .223 velocities exits unless it hits a shoulder bone. I should also restate I have not shot, or seen shot, deer at long range with this bullet. | |||
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Actually I did kill two hogs with that bullet. My Hornet was all I had in the truck and the opportunity arose. It was marginal but they were close enough for head shots. That bullet defines the word "explosive". "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Yes, thanks for the confirmation. FWIW, the Hornady is a match bullet optimized for paper punching and kills varmints just fine, but you'll not see the explosive expansion as often as a V-Max. The jacket or alloy or both make them harder. One last anecdote before I leave the field of battle. If you spot for a shooter hitting prairie dogs with 40 gr V-Max and 40 gr BTs side by side and at the same velocity, you can watch their different performances at range. Ballistic Tips cease to have the violent "explode 'em" effect well before V-Maxs. It seems to begin around 300 yards and becomes more pronounced as the range continues to increase. That falls right in line with their performance on medium game at distance. And again, no one here is advocating the use of 40 gr 22 caliber bullets on deer as a whole class of suitable bullets. We're talking about one particular bullet in one particular brand with a specific jacket characteristic that allows it to perform differently from most of its cousins. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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First of all, carpetman is also talking about another bullet, and the implication of this whole thread is that it's not a stunt to experiment with varmint bullets outside their design intent and specs on deer at long range. You are saying a specific bullet, at a rather specific range 250-300 yds, which is a very narrow margin of opportunity, right at the ragged edge of the ft lbs of necessary energy, which makes it a specialists stunt. IMO, this whole thread, and especially your last comments, epitomizes the extreems you 223 advocates will go to with your rationalizations of the use of varmint bullets on deer. You act like this is normal stuff, with predictable favorable results, yet the factors involved (facts) are clearly outside common situations and results. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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 I guess this is another case of some guy from Alaska, thinks no one in the lower 48 has the experience level and the knowledge that he does.. Thank you Howard Coselle, Speaking of Sports.. | |||
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Seafire, I believe you may have identified one of the major reasons for the great disparities in opinions regarding the use of .224 bullets on deer. I personally know of several instances where it took a dozen to two dozen rounds of .222/.223 to kill a mule deer. But in every instance, these hunts were close to 40 years ago. 40 years ago, and Berger, swift, Northfork, didn't even exits. The Nosler Partition was still the "new thing", the Barnes X was just invented, and the Ballistic tip was almost 15 years in the future. Since then the hunting ballistic tips have been redesigned 4 times, and bonded into the Accubond. Gentlemen, we are no hunting with grandpa's bullets, so we shouldn't expect them to perform the same. | |||
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I shot a nice mule deer at about 100 yards with my .243. The shot was well placed but he took off on a dead run. He only went about 100 yards but I just decided I wanted something with a little more punch. I have to admit that I shot that deer on the other side of a fence, on land that we did not have permission. I needed him to be down and in the back of the truck. Anyway, you win. I surrender. When I started hunting, the most prized hunting gear was a Woolrich jacket. You probably don't even know what that is. I guess my experience deer hunting over these past 50 years is not enough for you since I don't hunt with a .223. Son, I mean you no malice. Good luck and good hunting. I hope that you shoot a big buck this year. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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There you go guessing and speculating again. If you have experience level and knowledge - demonstrate it with your words, and I suggest the first step is to qualify your endorsment of teancum's stunt. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Exactly my point as well. Nosler designed the 40gr BT as a varmint bullet, and one would expect it to perform very well as designed. Unlike the erratic perhaps behavior of bullets 50-60 yrs ago. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I say that the great disparities has absolutely nothing to do with the differences in old or new bullets. The disparity is ......... whether one is willing to dismiss fact with rationalization or not. IMO, it's that simple. Many 223 advocates seem to have a very keenly developed skill at rationalization. It's a mind game - the 223 is what it is, pure and simple. It will kill deer, whether operated within reasonable paremeters, or as a stunt. The thing is that the rationalizers try to promote stunts as within reasonable parameters re the 223. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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That's my point. What you described could happen today just as it did in the past. New vs old bullet design is not the issue. New bullets can be counted on more reliably to do what they are designed to do. Yet we find people using varmint bullets on deer claiming such and such performance. The results you described can be duplicated easily by the choice of a bullet not designed for the purpose. Where it was done perhaps in the past unintentionally, (and we can blame the bullet) presently it can be done through simply making an idiot's choice, which isn't the fault of the bullet, but the shooter instead. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Fortunately (or unfortunately as the case may be) "Ignore" is a computer-specific function and I can see you blowing hard on this one. One again you've conjoined different comments on different subjects to create a wholly imaginary weakness in another's position. I made no connection whatsoever between the observed differences in impact beginning at 250-300 yards on prairie dogs and what I might think the appropriate range would be for deer. You did that all by yourself so you'd have something new to be belligerent about. It's your standard M.O. I'm not sure its intentional; probably a manifestion of incipient dementia. I'd get that checked out. And I am not commenting on what carpetman 1 has to say, I'm relating my own personal experiences shooting game with one particular 40 gr bullet. Third, why do you give a shit what turns my crank? Are you a control freak or something? I haven't recommended anyone do what I might do nor do think anyone else is wrong or missing an adventure for choosing to shoot a larger more conventional cartridge. Lastly, these are not "experiments". They're well established results over more than 100 animals cleanly taken with no losses. You, OTOH are dealing with data collected from intenet sources and advertisements combined with years of predjudice generated from one or two inappropriate applications of the caliber with who-knows-what bullet. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I hope it doesn't piss you off greatly that I don't believe you - if what you are saying is taking deer with varmint bullets out of a 223. Quote: why do you give a shit? I wonder about that too, and haven't a good answer yet. Perhaps I have been wanting to stand up to blowhards all my life, and find the relative safety of the internet comforting. Many blowhards win through intimidation, and it's much harder for BHs to intimidate when their only tools are words. BTW, for clarification, I consider any application of the 223 on deer as inappropriate, except maybe for culling. It's just that for this argument on this thread, I'm focusing specifically on the use of .223 varmint bullets on deer, which is a sub-catagory and worse catagory in inappropriate use, IMO. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Kabluewy: Arguing with these guys is pointless. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Deer and hogs. No, it doesn't piss me off because you can't get mad at someone that simply lacks the capacity to open their minds to new concepts. And once again for the record, its a particular bullet, not bullet(s). A point you consistently ignore. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Works both ways, Dave. This argument is never going to have any other resolution. Never has, never will. But I owe Kube a debt because at times when I'm pissed at things I can't alter, I can have these venting sessions and Kube always indulges me. Can't speak for him but its almost therapy for me and I appreciate the opportunity.  "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Yes, Tig, you do get it. I'm indebted (grateful) to you as well. (and many others)  If there is one simple way to sum up what this is really about, you got it pegged. (tigged ) KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Kabluey and I horse around a lot. We play horse all the time. I'm the head and he is a master at his part by just being his natural self. | |||
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One of Us |
Man these threads just crack me up. They get so freakin heated and personal at times. Great entertainment.  I can't wait for carpetman to nail a deer with his 223 in Nov/Dec so we can start it all over again. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers .223 strikes again on Mule deer
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