Dave Bush--I killed my first deer 54 years ago and had hunted ducks, geese, quail and dove several years before that. So yes, I'm familar with Woolrich also Filson, White's Boots, Thorlo socks, Carhartt , Pendleton and others--I'd suspect you are familar with those I mentioned too. You shoot a deer with a .243 and it runs so you figure something bigger would shorten the distance. Possibly so? Speculation that we'll never know. One thing that is iron clad to me is that you don't know till you pull the trigger. My experience and observations lead me to believe they may not go down any sooner. I've seen too many that how they ever took one more step or took another breath is beyond me--yet they did. When you have taken out their heart and liver and they are still on their feet--what else could you do with a bigger gun? I have seen 30-06 shot deer travel longer distance than .222 shot deer--go figure that one and certainly not knocking a 30-06.
Now if this discussion was about .257 Roberts or 7x57 on deer, despite my over 50 years experience--I wouldn't be able to offer anything--I have no experience with either. I've heard good things about them, but no experience. So if you told me you and your sons have shot several deer at 500 yards and beyond, I'd not be in a posistion to say that's a stunt. I'd not insult your integrity unless I had reason to believe otherwise that you had no integrity.
Your tagline lists all those big bores--no small bores yet you are here in small bores making bold statements with nothing to back it up. Are you just a troll?

Antelope Sniper--Several cases where it took a dozen or two shots to kill a mule deer. That sounds like spray and pray to me and someone needs to have their butt kicked and gun taken away. I did see a small buck that "Junior" shot all to pieces with a 30-30. Dad needed to have his butt kicked for not taking son to the range and teaching him to shoot. Junior had never shot the gun. Saw deer and proceeded to unload the rifle as fast as he could work the lever--oh you are suppossed to aim???

CM,
I said basically the same thing to tigger as I said to you, about not believing your claims per se. Yet he didn't get his shorts in a wad. What's with you? Is my disbelief an affront to your integrity? What - you expect everyone to just believe you? Or is it that there is real reason for disbelief?

Get a real man's rifle, rather than that girley 223.

If you are too poor, or too cheap, to buy some real bullets for your 223, we can start a collection, or maybe someone will send you a box. With being conservative, a box of TSX should last maybe five years, or more, at the rate of your actual use, perhaps less if you can be generous and share them with the son-in-law. nephew, great nephew, and grandson, who seem to be the real shooters in the family, from your reports.

KB

Scott--Can't wait for me to nail a deer in Nov/Dec with .223 so we can start it again. Probably wont happen. If I decide to shoot a deer will probably be with my .222. My .243 and .223 are both Win mod 70. My .222 is a Rem 600 so I'd probably carry it to be different than my .243 I been carrying. Then again my .222 has taken some deer and I've not taken one with my .223. But my nephew, great nephew, and grandson one or the other probably use a .223.

Sorry, I can't play this year. My new toys are a 6.5 x 57 and a 6MM BR Norma. But in the spirit of things I'll limit myself to 70 gr TNTs in the BR.

quote:

There you go guessing and speculating again. If you have experience level and knowledge - demonstrate it with your words, and I suggest the first step is to qualify your endorsment of teancum's stunt.

you wear out the words 'speculate' on here..

there is no speculation whatsoever...

its hands on experience...

you're speculating that Teancum's success is a stunt... with solid results it is far from a stunt...

the load that Teancum uses in his 223, he got from me and my testing during the off season and varmint season... a hobby of mine...

if one looks at the number of responses on this thread, one sees whose hobby is just arguing on internet forums with everyone else...

and that would happen to be you....is that speculation? nope, because we are looking at solid results, which would not make it a speculation... of course unless you are just doing it all as a stunt..

so just exactly how many times have you used Teancum's load and caliber choice in the field to be able to tell us that it doesn't work, and you have personally seen it failed?

If you have, I'd be very surprised...

if you have seen it failed, I'd conclude you were a lousy shot...

either way, it is evident you are just another armchair self appointed ballistic expert...

and that isn't a speculation whatsoever...

to use an old quote which applies here... "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"....

and your wind blows hard, Blowhard..

welcome to my ignore button... I do that for dipshits and buttheads... and you've met the qualifications... congrats!

( what a dink! )

quote:

My new toys are a 6.5 x 57

my favorite Round!!!

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

welcome to my ignore button... I do that for dipshits and buttheads... and you've met the qualifications... congrats!

It pleases me greatly to achieve the honorary position of ignore button from a blowhard. That way I can respond to your posts for other's amusment, and get no further line of BS from you in response.

However it seems that we do have a mutual interest in the 6.5mm.

KB

The more these arguments go on, the more I think I just need to go shoot a bunch of deer this fall with my .223 and find out what I really think about it for myself. I really have no doubts it will work just fine, but I like to speak from a position of knowledge, not supposition. TP&W just gave me and my BIL about 120 MLDP permits for does for this year, needless to say we will be shooting alot.

Generally I shoot my 30-06 or 7x57, they are proven and buck the wind alot better than those little .223 bullets, and wind is a factor here. I have shot a couple does with my .220 swift before, both were bang-flops, no complaints. Horror of horrors, I even used my 55 grain V-Max 'yote loads on them, running about 3850 fps. These weren't little hill country deer either, I am up in the panhandle. Think more like OK or Kansas deer, that is about the size ours run. Good farm country deer.

IDK, I will think about it. Might as well find some decent bullets for deer in the .223, I am sure it will be what my daughter uses to shoot her first one here in a few years. She is pretty noise sensitive. Her brother loves his .270, won't leave home without it, but she is different.

If I were to start all over for a cull season I'd probably focus on a 223 with the Winchester 64 gr Powerpoint bullet. It was designed with deer sized game in mind and at 223 velocities, and its affordable to shoot in large quantites for load developement.

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
TP&W just gave me and my BIL about 120 MLDP permits for does for this year, needless to say we will be shooting alot.

Might as well find some decent bullets for deer in the .223

Seems like the perfect opportunity. 120 permits - amazing. Keep us posted on your experiments with a decent 223 bullet for deer. I think that would be interesting. I might even try it, given that kind of opportunity.

KB

I figured that you would be leg humping JTPinTX for a invitation...

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Conservative Rifleman--Thank you. You are amongst the few to post a bad result. You shot a deer with .222 and it ran off. That begs the questions--where did you hit it? Sounds like a bad spot or you would have found it. Would it have ran off if you were using something else? If it was a bad hit which it sounds like it was, I suspect the same results.

I

I aimed at the deers ribs from about 50 yards. Since the deer was not recovered we never found out where the bullet hit the deer. I don't think I missed as it was an easy shot and I was a good shot.

Perhaps the bullet hit a rib and blew up on the rib?

Use enough gun!

Conservative Rifleman--I had thought of the deer not being recovered--you don't really know. I have the same problem with a deer I shot with .243 using cast bullet. I can see where you could come up with the notion it didn't work never again. About where I am as far as using cast .243 on deer--didn't work that time and I'm not going to experiment further. You also said you were young and dumb or something to that effect. I wondered if in your being naive then you perhaps used a fmj bullet? Do you recall what bullet you used? Without the deer recovered we'll never know. It doesn't sound like it was a well hit deer.

JTP inTX --Now your tale was sounding good until you got to the part about wind in the Texas panhandle. Everybody knows there is no wind there. Want proof? Ben Franklin didn't go there to invent lightning did he? Not enough wind to fly a kite. Even the rich can't afford to import wind to fly a kite.
your daughter wont be able to use a .223 on doe. You can't find a box of ammo with a doe pictured on it and that is a 100% required thing. Picture has to match the game. I know that for FACT--learned it right here on the internet. All you will find is buck pictures--usually an eight pointer. Now there might be a work around for that problem--but not legal. If she waits until time of year that bucks shed their antlers she might get by shooting a doe. But the problem is that deer season closed then.
I might know of your son. I heard about a fellow that wouldn't leave home without his .270. Would your son's name be Jack?

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
TP&W just gave me and my BIL about 120 MLDP permits for does for this year, needless to say we will be shooting alot.

Might as well find some decent bullets for deer in the .223

Seems like the perfect opportunity. 120 permits - amazing. Keep us posted on your experiments with a decent 223 bullet for deer. I think that would be interesting. I might even try it, given that kind of opportunity.
KB

I am managing the MLDP program for my BIL, he has about 4100 acres in the program. He leases 2880 of it out, I gave those hunters 80 permits, told them I had more if they needed them. I kept 36 of them for some areas he doesn't lease out. For our 260 acres I got 12 permits, one of them is already gone, dad used one with his bow the other day for his freezer. My son, being young of course, has decided he is going to really heat up the .270 this year. I bet he gets tired of cleaning deer before he runs out of permits though. Dad (me) doesn't play that "you shoot 'em, I clean 'em game."

Deer must be kept in edible condtion, and not gutshot, but at that point we can put them in a cooler for the local prison to come pick up. They are teaching the inmates to process, and using the meat to feed the guards and prisoners. Hides are donated to make gloves for wounded veterans. Everybody wins in that situation.

Population has been exploding here, and we want to get the numbers under control before the population starts to become stunted like it has in other parts of the state. With the drought bad this year and recruitment low, we have a rare chance to actually make a real difference.

JTPinTx--What town are you near? 4100 acres--my front lawn use to be almost that small till I got a bigger house.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
JTP inTX --Now your tale was sounding good until you got to the part about wind in the Texas panhandle. Everybody knows there is no wind there. Want proof? Ben Franklin didn't go there to invent lightning did he? Not enough wind to fly a kite. Even the rich can't afford to import wind to fly a kite.
your daughter wont be able to use a .223 on doe. You can't find a box of ammo with a doe pictured on it and that is a 100% required thing. Picture has to match the game. I know that for FACT--learned it right here on the internet. All you will find is buck pictures--usually an eight pointer. Now there might be a work around for that problem--but not legal. If she waits until time of year that bucks shed their antlers she might get by shooting a doe. But the problem is that deer season closed then.
I might know of your son. I heard about a fellow that wouldn't leave home without his .270. Would your son's name be Jack?

Picture on the box is not a problem, I reload and will let my daughter draw whatever deer she wants on the box.

And the wind isn't really too bad either. Not for culling anyways, that is different than hunting for the big one, when you have to take what you can get, when you can get it.

My son loves his .270 because it was built by Mike Bryant with a Hart barrel on a Remington action and shoots lights out. Funny how that will turn a young one into a beliver. He knows if he misses, it wasn't the rifle.

Oh, BTW, I live in Wellington.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:
I figured that you would be leg humping JTPinTX for a invitation... --Pleasing your enemies does not turn them into friends--

That's kinda gross, literally, but metaphorically it's funny and you're right - I got no pride when it comes to stuff like this, and I am an old dog. I'm not even too proud to shoot a 223 for deer, with the right bullet, and in the right situation. Heck, I would own a 223 if I didn't consider it such a specialists' cartridge. It has such a narrow margin of usefulness for me that I don't want to sink the necessary money into something like that.

BTW, There are no enemies herein. As far as from my point of view anyway.

KB

quote:

Deer must be kept in edible condtion, and not gutshot, but at that point we can put them in a cooler for the local prison to come pick up. They are teaching the inmates to process, and using the meat to feed the guards and prisoners. Hides are donated to make gloves for wounded veterans. Everybody wins in that situation.

Very interesting! is this something the county or state came up with, or landowners?
I have a good supply of Win 63 grn and Nosler solidbase 60 grn, both would do the trick, no problem. I'll be glad to send you some to try if you want to play with loads etc.

I think I will just use my 223 all season long with 60gr partitions. Just to see if it works.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:

quote:

Deer must be kept in edible condtion, and not gutshot, but at that point we can put them in a cooler for the local prison to come pick up. They are teaching the inmates to process, and using the meat to feed the guards and prisoners. Hides are donated to make gloves for wounded veterans. Everybody wins in that situation.

Very interesting! is this something the county or state came up with, or landowners?
I have a good supply of Win 63 grn and Nosler solidbase 60 grn, both would do the trick, no problem. I'll be glad to send you some to try if you want to play with loads etc.

Sure, I would take some to try, both would be good bullets. Pretty much all I have is true varmit bullets, with the exception of a very few of the OLD Barnes 53's. I have heard the Sierra 63 SMP (1370) is good too, as is the Hornady 60 grn HP. Both pretty tough bullets.

As to the meat to the prison program, I am not sure who initially came up with it, but it is being used in several parts of the state now. Usually, MLD permits are done on a single landowner basis with a management program approved by the state. What we have done here is start an optional association for anyone in the county who wants to be a part of it. All the land is pooled under one program, with one mangement plan, one set of surveys (4 routes through distinct biotypes). Doing it this way, there is about 100,000 acres in our program this year (first year), and that makes for enough tags that the prison can justify a reefer trailer to sit on site, centrally located in the county. Carcasses are picked up once a week and the trailer cleaned. Pretty good system, and all sanctioned by TP&W. If you would like to talk to me about how it all works, pm me your number and I will give you a call.

quote:

Originally posted by hammer2506:
I think I will just use my 223 all season long with 60gr partitions. Just to see if it works.

Why not? It's an experiment that many on this forum have tried or plan on trying, and continue to work with new bullets. Some stick with it and say it works, others move on to other options.

Since you are planning to use it for the whole season, what if you lose the big buck right off? Will you stick with it then?

KB

Now Kabluey is singing the song he would use a .223 if given an opportunity to horn in on some of those doe tags JTPinTX has. Very definite conflict with all those total genius taglines he has. Very inconsistent. Flushes any of his integrity right down the drain wait--he had already done that with his integrity years ago. Went from no experience--never seen it done to having seen it done--and never left his keyboard--amazing. Sure hope the tagline with my handle doesn't get removed. Very much an honor to have a genius writing a line for me.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Conservative Rifleman--I had thought of the deer not being recovered--you don't really know. I have the same problem with a deer I shot with .243 using cast bullet. I can see where you could come up with the notion it didn't work never again. About where I am as far as using cast .243 on deer--didn't work that time and I'm not going to experiment further. You also said you were young and dumb or something to that effect. I wondered if in your being naive then you perhaps used a fmj bullet? Do you recall what bullet you used? Without the deer recovered we'll never know. It doesn't sound like it was a well hit deer.

I posted this on page 4:

"If I had known better in 1953 I would not have used the 222 on deer. I got a buck but then the next year a 50 yard broadside shot with the 55 gr Sierra Semi-Pt. resulted in the buck running off."

Now from 58 years of experience I know it was a weak cartridge and a small bullet that failed to stop that buck.

Why not use enough gun?

quote:

That sounds like spray and pray to me

Not at all carpet man. These were solid kill zone strike. The fur would fly and the deer would take off. Adventually they were chased down. I wish I could tell you what the exact projetiles were, but that was a loooooong time ago. Since then I've began to wonder if some of those bullet were more designed for the 22 hornet, and not it more modern higher velocity cousins. Of course in following years, rifes in the .270 to 30.06 range eliminated the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Now Kabluey is singing the song he would use a .223 if given an opportunity to horn in on some of those doe tags JTPinTX has. Very definite conflict with all those total genious taglines he has.

No chance.

Remember the line in Quigley, where he told the dying villan, who he had just shot holes in, that he didn't say he didn't know how to use a pistol, but instead that he didn't have much use for one?

I didn't say that I don't know how to use a 223 effectively. I just have little reason to use a girley rifle for deer. Really, I can't think of one even partially good reason to use a 223, except perhaps just for the fun of it. That i can understand, but I would certainly be dissappointed if I lost a deer because of it.

I've got too many other nice and plenty adequate deer rifles to mess with something. Besides I really enjoy the rifles I have. I certainly can't envision enjoying a 223 more.

KB

JTPinTX --Know where Wellington is. My wife was born in Childress. (I'm from Wichita Falls originally).

quote:

Originally posted by Conservative Rifleman:

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Conservative Rifleman--I had thought of the deer not being recovered--you don't really know. I have the same problem with a deer I shot with .243 using cast bullet. I can see where you could come up with the notion it didn't work never again. About where I am as far as using cast .243 on deer--didn't work that time and I'm not going to experiment further. You also said you were young and dumb or something to that effect. I wondered if in your being naive then you perhaps used a fmj bullet? Do you recall what bullet you used? Without the deer recovered we'll never know. It doesn't sound like it was a well hit deer.

I posted this on page 4:

"If I had known better in 1953 I would not have used the 222 on deer. I got a buck but then the next year a 50 yard broadside shot with the 55 gr Sierra Semi-Pt. resulted in the buck running off."

Now from 58 years of experience I know it was a weak cartridge and a small bullet that failed to stop that buck.

Why not use enough gun?

With all due respect, you've illustrated one of our points. You're still reliving an event from 53 years ago and assuming the results would be the same today. That flies in the face of common knowledge regarding the advancements in bullet design.

As a result of those advancements the correct answer to your question is the 223 (or 222 as it may be ) is enough gun for the non-Luddites among us.

We moved to Wellington when I was 3, forty something years ago. My FIL was born and spent his whole life in Childress, Kirkland to be exact. He has spent his whole life farming that country. My parents are from Seymour.

The whole deer population thing to me is funny. When I graduated HS in the late 80's, there were a very few deer along the river, but no one hunted them. By the time I got out of the Navy in '95, we had a real huntable population with some pretty good bucks running around. By 2005, we were probably at about a perfect density, though some farmers were already beginning to gripe about crop damage. Now, they are way over, damaging the native browse, causing significant crop damage, and in general becoming a nuisance. Funny how it has changed so much in that relatively short time. If you would have told me, 25 years ago, what we would be doing this fall thinning the deer, I wouldn't have believed it. Yet, that is where we are at.

This thread is almost becoming a crusade. KB is admonished because he has no experience using a 223 on deer. Conservative Rifleman and Antelope Sniper have used them with bad experiences and are being challenged for posting so.

I would not call using the 223 a stunt but I would say from a physics standpoint, more CAN go wrong. You have a very lightweight bullet moving at very high speeds. The potential to fail is higher than if you are using a larger bullet at the same speed (assuming similar constructing).

I don't think it's fair to insinuate that because these failures occurred, they were the fault of the shooter with poor bullet placement.

All bullets fail at times to perform as expected but when shooting small bullets at big game, the margin of error for "failure" is less. I don't think this is a hard concept to understand.

This isn't about the cartridge, it about the size of size/construction of the bullet and the impact velocity.

This subject is very polarizing. I personally don't care what anyone uses to hunt deer but enjoy reading about real experiences good and bad. People should be able to post their experiences without having to be constantly challenged about it.

TEANCUM,
Have you tried Hornady's 75 gr. A-Max yet?
It should do real well in the wind and from the reports I see on other forums it kills great also..
It is quite accurate in my old Savage 1:9 twist varmint..
I fact that's why I bought the Savage, to shoot these bullets..

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
...I would not call using the 223 a stunt but I would say from a physics standpoint, more CAN go wrong. You have a very lightweight bullet moving at very high speeds. The potential to fail is higher than if you are using a larger bullet at the same speed (assuming similar constructing)...

Exactly the point I'm trying to get across. I think if you want to use a .223 for deer, you ought to at least use the heaviest, sturdiest bullet your rifle will shoot well to decrease the odds of something going wrong.

quote:

This subject is very polarizing. I personally don't care what anyone uses to hunt deer but enjoy reading about real experiences good and bad. People should be able to post their experiences without having to be constantly challenged about it.

Regards,

Scott

That goes for both sides Scott..

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
...I would not call using the 223 a stunt but I would say from a physics standpoint, more CAN go wrong. You have a very lightweight bullet moving at very high speeds. The potential to fail is higher than if you are using a larger bullet at the same speed (assuming similar constructing)...

Exactly the point I'm trying to get across. I think if you want to use a .223 for deer, you ought to at least use the heaviest, sturdiest bullet your rifle will shoot well to decrease the odds of something going wrong.

And I agree also..
If you get so phucking horned up over horns when hunting and will take any shot that the animal will give you including up the ass shots then maybe you should (stay on the couch) or use a Barnes 53 gr. TSX..
Guy's are reporting finding that bullet in the pelvis area on deer shot straight on in the chest..
Don't believe me go to 24 hour Campfire and tell them that they are lairs and see how far you get..
Dare ya...

Low Wall,

I'm not saying I would never use a 223 on deer. I would definitely use a TSX or Partition and possibly a 65 Gameking, 70 Speer or 64 Power Point.

Maybe someday I will but I have a hard time reaching over a 257R, 6.5x55 and 7mm-08 in my safe to grab a 223 for deer. I just can never get past one of those three.

scottfromdallas- You and I think ALOT alike. Why, after having owned a .223 and a swift for many years, have I shot so few deer with them? It is because, just like you, I have a hard time reachinmg past the 7x57 and 30-06. The 30-06 is a stone cold killer of big rutted up bucks at medium+ ranges, and big pigs. Fact.

I think though, that the .223 can be very effective if used within the correct parameters. The user must just know and uderstand what these are, and work within them, accepting those constraints. No different than anything else. Notice I haven't said anything about carrying the .223 for chasing the big one this year. It ain't going to happen, I don't have that kind of confidence in it. My hand knows where to reach when something must die, no questions asked. Everyone has a "go to" gun, mine is my pre-64 30-06.

Same here Scott..
Those three that you mention along with nine other cartridges that I can think of off the top of my head..
Going to the range today if the wind dies down to do some more load testing with my 6.5X55, 708, 7X57 and two 45-70's..
That's my hobby and I love it!
So far this year I have only hunted with my 45-70's because I like the way a open sighted lever action or single shot packs, hunt crown land bush for the most part were shots are under 100 m and cast my own bullets which is another hobby that I really enjoy..

If I had access to open ag ground to hunt then I would give the .22 cal. / 75 gr. A-Max a try based on what others who "have used them" say that they preform....

When I had the HTG suppressor installed George Vais cautioned me about the use of V-Max bullets in my reloading for use with this rifle. From his experience of replacing baffles within the suppressor that were returned to him he found that is almost all of those cases the load being used was the V-Max. It was informational but also a warning that I would be responsible for any baffles being hit in the suppressor if I used the V-Max's. So I didn't use them.....Simple.

I had purchased some .224 40g V-Max to use in this outfit but after hearing that recommendation decided to reserve them for my 22-250 and some of the loads that I would be making up for our sons' non suppressed .223's.

I was on the Nosler web site last nite and looked at the page for this bullet #39510 it talks about the bullet thriving on ultra high velocity loads and the match grade accuracy. Also mentioned in the uniform gradual thickening of the jacket at the bullet's midsection and a reference to it's ballistically engineered solid base for long range performance. Amen brother.

The optimum performance velocity is given as a minimum at 1600fps and the maximum as UNLIMITED. That is very informative. This bullet could be used in a 22-284 and driven at 4400fps+ and still hold together as part of it's construction design. Many of the other varmint bullets will encourage a velocity limitation to most likely maintain the jackets and fragmentation of their bullets at those ultra velocity levels.

Clearly this bullet has some design features that are not present in many of it's competitor's products and is working in this application of taking deer in the "window" of 2300-2500fps.

That is very interesting information TEANCUM, I appreciate you posting it. I don't have any of the 40 BT's, just V-MAXes. I'll see if I can pick some up somewhere though. I live in the sticks, it may take a few weeks.

I think, here real soon, I am going to do a .223 bullet test into some wet newsprint just for my own interest. Should be interesting.