quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
With all due respect, you've illustrated one of our points. You're still reliving an event from 53 years ago and assuming the results would be the same today. That flies in the face of common knowledge regarding the advancements in bullet design.

As a result of those advancements the correct answer to your question is the 223 (or 222 as it may be ) is enough gun for the non-Luddites among us.

Now that's just rude. I was taught that whippersnappers whould have more respect for their elders. You were rude to me also, mentioning denintia or something - I forget.

I already explained this to you once, sonny. Perhaps you were having a hormonal moment, and not paying attention. I agree that the advancment in tech makes bullets more predictable nowadays. Therefore when a 223 idiot selects a bullet made for varmints it can be counted upon that the bullet will explode at normal ranges, as designed.

The point is that the experience of bullet failures seen many years ago can be duplicated today with an idiots choice in bullet selection and the results counted upon.

I still have flash backs, everytime, because I think about the doe my buddy wounded with a 223.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
I think, here real soon, I am going to do a .223 bullet test into some wet newsprint just for my own interest. Should be interesting.

Yes, should be quite interesting. However, I really-really suspect the results will be predictable. Worth doing anyway.

Besides the predictability of the bullet performance, there is something else very predictable, IMO. That is that it won't change a thing in the minds of the 223 advocates. Even if nothing can be found of the bullet except dust, they will still rationalize around it with 20,000 excuses. They will still imagine a perfectly mushroomed bullet just under the hide on the backside of that wet paper, and you just didn't search long enough to find it.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
That is very interesting information TEANCUM, I appreciate you posting it. I don't have any of the 40 BT's, just V-MAXes. I'll see if I can pick some up somewhere though. I live in the sticks, it may take a few weeks.

I think, here real soon, I am going to do a .223 bullet test into some wet newsprint just for my own interest. Should be interesting.

It sounds like you have a testing center right there on the ranch with those permits.

What would be an interesting "in the field" test would be to use a .223 with V-Max and NBT 40g at a distance where that load is cruising along at the "magic envelope" of 2300-2500fps and give us the benefit of your experience on deer.

The results would confirm the experience of others and never be enough to convince the no experienced/keyboard shooters, but would still be fun.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
What would be an interesting "in the field" test would be to use a .223 with V-Max and NBT 40g at a distance where that load is cruising along at the "magic envelope" of 2300-2500fps and give us the benefit of your experience on deer.

The results would confirm the experience of others and never be enough to convince the no experienced/keyboard shooters, but would still be fun.

At least we would be objective. I for one have never claimed a varmint bullet doesn't (most likely) have an envelope where the factors come together to allow it to perform somewhat outside it's design intentions.

Also, another fact is that in hunting situations that I encounter, the window of opportunity for such small "magic envelope" is just too infrequent to try such a stunt.

It could prove something, but that something isn't useful to me or to any normal hunter or hunting situation. Besides, the wet paper isn't going to change anything mathmatically. The retained energy, computed, for the range where the "magic envelope" lives, is still what it is, and it in fact is too little energy for anyone other than a stuntsman to be trying.

KB

The .223 has been legal for roe deer Scotland for years, and has just become legal for muntjac and chinese water deer in England recently. I think for roe deer the .223 is a great round and hopefully it will be legal in England soon.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
That is very interesting information TEANCUM, I appreciate you posting it. I don't have any of the 40 BT's, just V-MAXes. I'll see if I can pick some up somewhere though. I live in the sticks, it may take a few weeks.

I think, here real soon, I am going to do a .223 bullet test into some wet newsprint just for my own interest. Should be interesting.

It sounds like you have a testing center right there on the ranch with those permits.

What would be an interesting "in the field" test would be to use a .223 with V-Max and NBT 40g at a distance where that load is cruising along at the "magic envelope" of 2300-2500fps and give us the benefit of your experience on deer.

The results would confirm the experience of others and never be enough to convince the no experienced/keyboard shooters, but would still be fun.

I guess I could just load them with 13 grains of Blue Dot and shoot them from my bow stand to ensure optimum bullet placement.

Don't want folks showing up in my yard with pitchforks though, it might upset the neighbors. Then I would have to go buy some of tha Hornady Zombie ammo to defend my home, and things would go downhill from there. I wonder if Zombie ammo would make good doe culling ammo? Yet another question to debate. Would the deer need to have CWD before it would be effective?

No way will the wet newspaper test work. I defy you to find a box of ammo with a paper mache deer depicted. We all know that picture on the box is the ultimate indicator. Horror of horrors, those of us that have been successfully using .223 for years are going to suddenly find out it just doesn't work.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
those of us that have been successfully using .223 for years are going to suddenly find out it just doesn't work.

At least you could acknowledge you have been using varmint bullets, supposedly successfully, on deer. That's all, and at least it would be a start.

Then we can address your lies story fabrications.

KB

Every year Nosler posts a question on their forum regarding what we as customer would like to see for new products. There are several of us that keep asking for a .224 Accubond. Something in the 60, 69,or even 77 grain range.
Personally I think a 60 to 69 grain AB could be a very interesting performer. It could significantly expand the "magic envelope".

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
It could significantly expand the "magic envelope".

That's the key note. And it would chage my tune as well.

Also of interest, and obvious to some of us, is that the expanded "magic envelope" is what makes a real and useful hunting bullet, and it's something readily available. Starting with the 6mm Nosler BT deer hunting bullet line for example.

Also, as a matter of opinion, not necessarily fact, there already exists .223 bullets that have an expanded "magic envelope", such as some of those already mentioned, including the TSX. However they still, IMO, aren't enough, and they are there for those who insist on using a 22 cal for deer. In other words, they expand the usefulness of the 223 marginally into something it wasn't designed for.

A heavy 223 AB, as you described would be awesome, IMO, and really change the game. If there is one place where a premium bullet (or at least heavy for cal) is appropriate, it's with the 223 for use on deer, because it's a cartridge living on the ragged edge and needs all the help it can get for such use, IMO.

KB

quote:

Every year Nosler posts a question on their forum regarding what we as customer would like to see for new products. There are several of us that keep asking for a .224 Accubond. Something in the 60, 69,or even 77 grain range.
Personally I think a 60 to 69 grain AB could be a very interesting performer. It could significantly expand the "magic envelope".

Today you have a " Better Bullet " option(s), for medium size game, i.e; Deer / wild Boar, etc.. !

CEB: ESP RAPTOR


News
10/24/2011
Two new 22 (.224) caliber bullets are now available: a 62 grain solid and a 55 grain Non-Conventional hollow point. Click on the images below for more details.
http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/pages/news

PAPI

Papi--Thats interesting. We have bullets that cost about a penny per grain--about $70.00 a pound and they are useless. No picture on the box. They are looking for salespeople for these bullets--college degree several years experience etc--$70 per pound (and no picture) would seem to be a hard sale item requiring higher expertise to pull it off.

Scottfromdallas--KB is not admonished because he lacks experience. He calls everyone a liar that has posted actual experience--what he says are the facts and only answer. In the past he stated no experience and had never witnessed a deer shot with .22 cal. Now all of a sudden he has a heart breaking experience that his buddy shot one and he witnessed it. All of a sudden if he could horn in on filling some doe tags he'd use a .223. The guy has no credibility nor integrity and yes he is admonsihed. He came to Texas on a hog hunt going to show those Texas guys how it was done and his "buddies" wouldn't hunt with him. They stayed in the cabin. He has nothing to offer on the small cal section--look at his taglines he is nothing but a troll. Conservative Rifleman posted a non favorable experience and why it was unfavorable is not known--deer not recovered. I too had such an experience and I did speculate on some posibilities--don't know that it was admonishing?? Antelope Sniper told of a dozen or two hits---I did call it spray and pray--I couldn't imagine 2 dozen well placed shots not bring it down nor imagine a deer standing there for 2 dozen aimed shots?? Probably something to the story I'm missing.

Speaking of old farts, and bullet design - old and new - matching expectations with reality, and such; there is something very interesting within this thread.

Now, compared to the old days and technology basically represented by the choice of bullets CM uses on deer, we have an absolutely new opportunity, and luxery IMO, of being able to choose bullets to match the game and our expectations, and have a high degree of reliability in the performance to actually match our preconcieved expectations. (or perhaps even some drempt up results after the fact)

IMO, this is something that was not available in the 223 catagory up until just recently in time.

Some people still are lagging in matching the bullet to expectations, don't have the distinctions, or are too cheap, and thus have a different priority.

Some people are so stuck in a rut that you can show them a picture and they still don't get it.

Sign in the community Wal Mart of San Angelo TX, for the benefit of the greeters to explain to resident shoppers:


News is that it still doesnt work for some because they don't understand the third hand, since they count toes for anything above 10.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
With all due respect, you've illustrated one of our points. You're still reliving an event from 53 years ago and assuming the results would be the same today. That flies in the face of common knowledge regarding the advancements in bullet design.

As a result of those advancements the correct answer to your question is the 223 (or 222 as it may be ) is enough gun for the non-Luddites among us.

Now that's just rude. I was taught that whippersnappers whould have more respect for their elders. You were rude to me also, mentioning denintia or something - I forget.

I already explained this to you once, sonny. Perhaps you were having a hormonal moment, and not paying attention. I agree that the advancment in tech makes bullets more predictable nowadays. Therefore when a 223 idiot selects a bullet made for varmints it can be counted upon that the bullet will explode at normal ranges, as designed.

The point is that the experience of bullet failures seen many years ago can be duplicated today with an idiots choice in bullet selection and the results counted upon.

I still have flash backs, everytime, because I think about the doe my buddy wounded with a 223.

KB

I thought I was being rather defferntial to the old Luddite. Oh well, you can't please everyone.

But to your point, as a famous derelict once said: "You caint fix stoopid". Idiots will always find ways to identify themselves. I am truly concerned (in the nicest sense) about the dementia, Kube. You have redirected our refreshing discourse on one particular bullet towards the hordes of idiots for whom there is no help.

SeafireB17G--With your medical experience, what do you think the reason a deer that should be dead still shows life? You shoot their heart/liver/lungs out and they still run,walk, kick. I heard it is adrenaline? Heard adrenaline was the first hormone identified and it's a liquid put out by glands located over the kidneys. But I don't know if that is how what should be a dead deer isn't. Maybe attach a Tampon to the bullet to absorb the adrenaline?

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
But to your point, as a famous derelict once said: "You caint fix stoopid". Idiots will always find ways to identify themselves. You have redirected our refreshing discourse on one particular bullet towards the hordes of idiots for whom there is no help.

Yes, but it sure is fun to mess with them, until it becomes just too easy.

BTW, I think it was somewhere in Alabama that was the first test store for the above Wal Mart Express lane sign, and it actually worked there. But the failure rate in Texas was a surprise to everyone in Corp headquarters, except Texans, who didn't get it anyway. They all kept walking around, with their hands in the air, saying something like "where is the problem; just where is it - this problem that everyone is talking about?"

It's a complete mystery, and last I heard NASA was looking into it - some fallout from space or something. FEMA and CDC have already been alerted and on standby, in case it spreads.

The only thing they will say for sure is that the epicenter appears to be San Angelo TX.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
No way will the wet newspaper test work. I defy you to find a box of ammo with a paper mache deer depicted. We all know that picture on the box is the ultimate indicator. Horror of horrors, those of us that have been successfully using .223 for years are going to suddenly find out it just doesn't work.

Now that is some funny chit.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Horror of horrors, those of us that have been successfully using .223 for years are going to suddenly find out it just doesn't work.

I can't figure out why such news comes as such a surprise. Do you just like toting a pistol when deer hunting, or was it there because you actually planned ahead for bullet failure, so you would have a convenient way to finish off the deer wounded with the varmint bullet?

KB

I guess I'm double f**fed then. I was born in Montgomery...

It figures, and explains a lot. Now at least you have an excuse. I have a sister who has lived in Alabama for many years. Sweet gal, but strange thing happened when she moved from Georgia to Alabama. You won't believe it, but she went into some kind of time warp; back in time that is, one hour precisely plus about 20 to 30 years. And she's never come out of it. I can't figure that one out. They still have microwave oven and such and indoor plumbing, but practically everything else is different somehow. Maybe since you were born there you can explain it to me.

I'm figuring CM is a self-made man, with no excuse for his behavior.

The only other excuse is perhaps he was abducted

KB

Wife runn oft, but there's a cutie working at the bank who would be a good candidate for a few getaway days in Hawaii. Hummm Kabluey.

I bet she broke some world records getting away too.

Probably the turkey shit they use to grow their dope. I was only in-country 17 days in 1953. My conversational skills were somewhat limited at the time so I can't say for sure.

Interesting adder about the 5.56 that I forgot to mention earlier; on one of the sniper shows the other day they were discussing the rounds issued for same. I think they vary with the services but this one sniper was discussing the 175 gr 7.65 load and a 77 or 75 gr 5.56 round which is now the issue round for that service's snipers in that caliber. They have accurized rifles on the M-16 platform so they blend in on patrol.

Anyway, they must take a few Mohammeds back for autopsy or wound a few and take 'em back for treatment because the sniper tells the tale of the docs saying the 5.56 wounds with the heavy bullet were very much like the 7.65 in wound profile. Interesting tidbit.

When the conversation shifts to the military application of the 223 (5,56) cartridge, things get fuzzier. As you say,"interesting tidbit". Those tidbits considered seperately can lead to skewed conclusions or inferences.

From what I know of the tidbits, I would expect the wound profiles to look similar comparing the heavy .223 bullets to the .308, just smaller wound channels with the 223 (5.56). What I mean about wound channel profile is straight line penetration, which is guessing somewhat on my part, because I haven't studied the issue thoroughly. I don't know for example what the FMJ will do in such case - I don't know if it will tumble, but I suspect that either the heavy 223 or 308 FMJ in that case will have about the same tumbling characteristics (to tumble or not) - whichever.

Another point - it is my understanding that initially the little .223 (5.56) pill was intended to tumble, and perhaps fragment as a consequence, to increase its wounding effect. That's what the 7.62x39 pill was designed to do as well. Instability of the pill after entering the target was intentional. I'm not talking about instability in flight. It's my understanding of the stuff I've read that the snipers had wish for a heavier .223 bullet for longer shots, and whatever the precieved or real advantage of the lighter pills at shorter ranges was forfeited in exchange.

As you recall, the longer range effectivness is what got the 6.8 SPC, and perhaps the Grendel going, under the notion that even with the heavies the 5.56 wasn't good enough. That's why they use the 7.62x51 in the first place, when they are not so worried about blending in.

So, only part of the behavior of the military FMJ bullets can be carried over to hunting situations. For one thing common big game bullets, including those for deer, are not designed to tumble or fragment, but to go mostly in a straight line. Light for cal bullets have far more tendency to tumble and fragment, whether FMJ or like the 40gr BT. But in the case of the 40gr BT, tumbling isn't much of an issue because it will blow up first.

Anyway, getting into the issues comparing military stuff with hunting stuff IMO will (could) definately serve to confuse the discussion.

KB

The heavy 223 bullets used by the military are commercial HP bullets, not FMJ. A standard 77 gr match bullet chosen for improved trajectory at distance and found out later that they are more effective than expected in terminal ballistics. I have no idea how that translates to killing effectivenss on game. Guess I'll have to put on my stunt helment, elbow pads and find out!

BTW the 175 308 is an HP too. Whichever international body decides these things decided some time back to accept HPs as legal means to snipe.

Well tigg, there is one thing I like about tidbits, and that's when they are facts.

Interesting info, and those HP match bullets adds consistancy to the inferences made.

I'll go a little further with inference.

Quote:
"A standard 77 gr match bullet chosen for improved trajectory at distance and found out later that they are more effective than expected in terminal ballistics."

I would infer with a high degree of expected validity that if a deer hunter substituted a 77gr "hunting" type bullet the other parts of the above sentence would hold true as well.
KB

quote:

I world infer with a high degree of expected validity that if a deer hunter substituted a 77gr "hunting" type bullet the other parts of the above sentence would hold true as well.
KB

Generally yes but here is my problem: I doubt the part about autopsies on dead Mohammeds; I threw that in as a literary device. That means some number of them are being treated for wounds to gather that information. Which could suggest that there is some penciling or other characteristic that makes these bullets better wounders than killers.

Which brings us back full circle to the excellent and reliable killing power of the 40 gr BT. Hence no need for further experimentation.

I have heard that the Geneva Conventions call for the military to use fmj as they don't expand and fragment. I have also heard the Geneva Conventions don't even address the issue and that military uses them with the idea if you kill an enemy you only take that person out of the fight, but if you wound them, then several others are taken out to provide care for that wounded. I don't know, haven't studied all the things covered by the conventions-- it is lengthy. I have heard of people using fmj for hunting and they just pencil through and wound in most cases???? I had bad results with a cast bullet in a .243 and that it may have penciled through is one of the possibilities I came up with??? I also heard a second hand story that soldiers would carry a small file and file the point of a fmj and that would make them expand. If the Viet Cong captured a person and found a file on them they would kill them instantly. I don't know if that was true, a fairy tale or a war story. Had I heard it first hand I might know. Fairy tales always start "once upon a time" whereas war stories always start "this ain't no shit".

I don't know about all that stuff; I just know the boxes have pictures of Mohammeds on them. You figure the rest.

I took a little break and am now an internet expert on the subject. There were two "Hague Conventions" (1899 and 1907) that were convened to create a binding international arbitration court to replace the institution of war (ha ha).

The third was scheduled for 1914 but the institution of war decided differently.

The Hague Convention addressed weapons of war among other things and what was prohibited was "dum dum" type expanding bullets the British used. That created the impetus to develp tumbling bullets, which have a rich history indeed. Modern sniper rounds contain "non-expanding hollow points" (ha ha again), a definition everyone (except the Mohammeds, of course) seem to accept.

The Geneva Conventions (of which there were four including 1949), were intended to set international rules about the rights prisoners, the treatment of non-combatants in a war zone (unless they're your own subjects...just ask Joe and Mao) and other issues of humanity at large. They didn't deal with weapons.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I have heard ....

I have also heard .........

I don't know, haven't studied all the things covered by the conventions--

I have heard

I had bad results with a cast bullet in a .243

I also heard a second hand story.......

I don't know if that was true, a fairy tale or a war story.

Had I heard it first hand I might know.

Fairy tales

The guy's own words speak for themselves.

Thank you Kabluey for noticing my words speak for themselves. When not sure if true or rumor, I so state. I have integrity. Unlike a person that spreads hyperbole and has illusions of grandeure and is out of touch with reality and starts believing all their false notions are fact. Shooting deer with a keyboard and start believing they really KNOW would be an example. This frequently is a facade to hide darker secrets. A person that has not "came out of the closet" comes to mind.

Seems odd that a dum dum bullet would be a no no but a hand grenade is ok.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Seems odd that a dum dum bullet would be a no no but a hand grenade is ok.

Not to mention flamethrowers and carpet bombing.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I have heard ....

I have also heard .........

I don't know, haven't studied all the things covered by the conventions--

I have heard

I had bad results with a cast bullet in a .243

I also heard a second hand story.......

I don't know if that was true, a fairy tale or a war story.

Had I heard it first hand I might know.

Fairy tales

The guy's own words speak for themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Thank you Kabluey for noticing my words speak for themselves. When not sure if true or rumor, I so state. I have integrity. Unlike a person that spreads hyperbole and has illusions of grandeure and is out of touch with reality and starts believing all their false notions are fact. Shooting deer with a keyboard and start believing they really KNOW would be an example. This frequently is a facade to hide darker secrets. A person that has not "came out of the closet" comes to mind.

Thank you carpetman, for clarifying the purpose of your post. I was confused again with denentia, but now I understand.

I think it's so refreshing to read great and informative posts like yours, every now and then. So many times on this forum folks just ramble, speculate, blowhard and make personal slanders or anecdotal, hearsay, or other unreliable posts, which makes it difficult for us who like facts to sort through it all.

Such clarity of thought as yours, and lucid self-expression is such a rare and treasured item. I find mere words inadequate in stating my appreciation for true understanding of where you are coming from. Perhaps everyone here will be thankful and amazed for such a rare glimpse into the thinking of a genius.

Thanks again,
KB

I don't think she's gay Carpetman..
If you get my drift..

"Thank you carpetman for clarifying the purpose of your post. I was confused again with denentia, but now I understand" Kabluey. Yes, I can see you were confused, denentia is not a word. Perhaps you meant your dementia was still confusing you. That is fantastic, a definite sign of improvement that you are able to recognize the problem. Most are unaware they have the problem. What did you do to make this remarkable progress? Perhaps come out of the closet?

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
That is fantastic, a definite sign of improvement that you are able to recognize the problem. What did you do to make this remarkable progress? Perhaps come out of the closet?

I owe it all to you. My mind was closed, I was in the twightlight zone, now I have entered the Enlightenment Zome, thanks to you. Such bliss I can hardly imagine. I have recognized the problem, and it was right there all the time. Sometimes it just takes a guy like you to disclose the obvious.

KB

The final resolution to this long-standing debate about the use of the 223 for deer is now available for all to understand, thanks to carpetman. It's called the Enlightenment Zome.

You may be interested in a written definition and a graphic display of the solution. Again, gratitude goes to carpetman.

Here is a mathematical definition of the Zome system, on which the physical Zometool construction set is based. It is defined in terms of the vector space R3, equipped with the standard inner product, also known as 3-dimensional Euclidean space.
Let φ denote the Golden ratio and let H3 denote the symmetry group of the configuration of vectors , , and . The group H3, an example of a Coxeter group, is known as the icosahedral group because it is the symmetry group of a regular icosahedron having these vectors as its vertices.
Define the "standard blue vectors" as the H3-orbit of the vector (2,0,0). Define the "standard yellow vectors" as the H3-orbit of the vector (1,1,1). Define the "standard red vectors" as the H3-orbit of the vector (0,φ,1). A "strut" of the Zome System is any vector which can be obtained from the standard vectors described above by scaling by any power φn, where n is an integer. A "node" of the Zome System is any element of the subgroup of R3 generated by the struts. Finally, the "Zome system" is the set of all pairs (N,S), where N is a set of nodes and S is a set of pairs (v,w) such that v and w are in N and the difference v − w is a strut.
One may check that there are 30, 20, and 12 standard vectors having the colors blue, yellow, and red, respectively. Correspondingly, the stabilizer subgroup of a blue, yellow, or red strut is isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 4, 6, or 10, respectively. Hence, one may also describe the blue, yellow, and red struts as "rectangular", "trianglular", and "pentagonal", respectively.

Graphically displayed: