Talking about freedoms enjoyed in Idaho, here is a news story about House Bill 589 concerning the manufacture of guns and ammo in Idaho from parts made in Idaho that will be exempt from Federal law as they have not engaged in interstate commerce that was passed last year in July and signed into law:

http://www.idahopress.com/news...23-001cc4c03286.html

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
They are legal for hunting in Idaho as well as the use of any centerfire rifle caliber for big game. In Idaho we enjoy a lot of freedoms that aren't always available in other states.

ScottfromDallas

You are correct about that round not being whisper quiet. Any round that starts out supersonic (approximately more than 1100fps depending on location) will have the sound suppressed but not whisper quiet. It actually makes a unique sound and apparently does void the noise path for about 35-50 yards. This makes it harder to identify the source of the sound and if you miss, that sometimes happens, the critters are confused. I've overshot coyotes before and actually had them run toward me because they saw the bullet impact of the other side of them. It sounds like a lot of loud rushing noise it that can be imagined. It is fun to shoot that round without ear protection and not be exposed to any damaging conditions.

In many of the other countries around the world it is considered "bad form" not to have a suppressed rifle because of the loud harmful noise created by center-fire rounds. My understanding is that in Great Britain and Australia this is the case. You lads from there can amplify/correct that statement.

Mine were made by High Tech Gunworks by George Vais the developer of the Vais muzzle breaks. Those muzzle breaks that he sold were wonderful in that they did not increase the decibel rating very much at all, and that was the origin of his suppressors. He has since moved back to Greece and sold the business.

I have another one on a bolt action .22lr and when shooting subsonic ammo it is indeed whisper or Hollywood quiet. You actually hear the firing pin strike and the bullet impact and those that have shot it, if they are new shooters, are confused after pulling the trigger and don't know what has happened. Fun times.

I wish they were legal in TX. I have a friend that has a few supressors. You are right, the 22s are whisper quite. The one on his 308 SCAR helped reduce the sound but it was still fairly loud.

You can hunt with a suppressor here in Mississippi but I don't bother with mine. It's just not worth it to me. IMO, suppressing .223 high velocity centerfires is a waste of time.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
You can hunt with a suppressor here in Mississippi but I don't bother with mine. It's just not worth it to me. IMO, suppressing .223 high velocity centerfires is a waste of time.

Terry

I think the reason that George Vais was making the .224 caliber suppressors as well as all the other calibers up to the 50 BMG was for the potential military market and some hefty government contracts. He made them for almost all rifle calibers and pistol calibers.

He was a client of mine and gave me the good guy discount, so why not?

Could you imagine the sound from a couple of full auto SAWs or M16's going off in a block building in Iraq?

I wonder if any of our soldiers come back with severe hearing loss? They could be wearing some kind of hearing protection but I would think your hearing would be a good tool to have in that environment. I've heard from some good sources that some of the sniper outfits use suppressors to mask the sound trail and many are also "black suppressors" in that they will hide/consume the muzzle flash. HTG's were also black ones.

To own a suppressor in ID, I presume you still have to apply for a permit (class "something"?). Yes? I got the impression the restriction on owning suppressors (,full auto and other stuff) was a federal regulation?

In most Central European countries hunting with suppressors is illegal. They are associated with poaching, so I guess that is one reason for the restriction. In some European countries like the UK (, Sweden, Ireland?) they are legal and are all the rage. So I guess there must be something to their advantages. They sure spoil the lines of a rifle, but I guess that pretty is as pretty does...

- mike

I own a .223 can and thought it was about as cool as they get when I first got it, but after the "new" wore off I decided I didn't like mine too much. One thing most people don't understand about cans is the 1st shot out of a cold can is usual noticeably louder than the follow up shots so for a hunting tool it's a little handicapped. This along with the very loud sonic crack of a .223 kills most of it's benefits. When I practice using mine I still feel I need hearing protection.

Along with the above It's also the extra weight of the firearm and, it goes on the worst imaginable place on the gun (on the end of the barrel.) For those that wonder what it's like, next time you go shooting tape 2 lead ingots to the end of your barrel. That'll give you a good simulation.

I still use mine on occasion on my AR-15 and when I go to the range, but just don't like it in the field. Going subsonic on a .223 just isn't an option for me. I love my .22LR can though and wish I had a .308 can. I could see subsonic .308's being very useful!

Terry

mho, you have it right but some states have "extra" laws that need to be followed and some don't.

Mississippi is pretty laid back about it. I bought my cans about 4-5 years ago. My dealer use to carry a small inventory of full automatics too. I was real keen about getting one at one time, but I've sort of cooled to the idea lately. I've decides I just couldn't justify the cost and it be nothing more than a fun toy.

Terry

Teancum--That is a good point about animals hearing the noise below them and then running towards you. My dad always carried a sling--the type that David used that you twirl above your head. He could throw a large rock a fairly long ways down a canyon and the noise below the deer would drive them towards him. He got several deer that way.

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
To own a suppressor in ID, I presume you still have to apply for a permit (class "something"?). Yes? I got the impression the restriction on owning suppressors (,full auto and other stuff) was a federal regulation?

In most Central European countries hunting with suppressors is illegal. They are associated with poaching, so I guess that is one reason for the restriction. In some European countries like the UK (, Sweden, Ireland?) they are legal and are all the rage. So I guess there must be something to their advantages. They sure spoil the lines of a rifle, but I guess that pretty is as pretty does...

- mike

Yes that is correct for the time period that I got mine.

I did have to apply for the $200 transfer fee/stamp/permit on each gun as I bought them about 6-8 years ago.

However with that new HB 589 bill may make it possible to just buy the suppressor, if it meets the guidelines in the bill, and not be subject to any federal laws. We have a number of ammo and suppressor manufacturers here in the state and I think that they lobbied successfully for that bill.

Most likely it will be challenged at some point and the appeal process will begin. It has effectively lowered the price for suppressors in Idaho by $200.

I love this state.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I own a .223 can and thought it was about as cool as they get when I first got it, but after the "new" wore off I decided I didn't like mine too much. One thing most people don't understand about cans is the 1st shot out of a cold can is usual noticeably louder than the follow up shots so for a hunting tool it's a little handicapped. This along with the very loud sonic crack of a .223 kills most of it's benefits. When I practice using mine I still feel I need hearing protection.

Along with the above It's also the extra weight of the firearm and, it goes on the worst imaginable place on the gun (on the end of the barrel.) For those that wonder what it's like, next time you go shooting tape 2 lead ingots to the end of your barrel. That'll give you a good simulation.

I still use mine on occasion on my AR-15 and when I go to the range, but just don't like it in the field. Going subsonic on a .223 just isn't an option for me. I love my .22LR can though and wish I had a .308 can. I could see subsonic .308's being very useful!

Terry

Weight is certainly a factor.

My can is on a Rem 700 with a 26" bull barrel that comes in right at 9 pounds empty. Add 1-1 1/4 pounds for the scope, another pound for the suppressor (at the end of the barrel) and some ammo and you are at 11.5-12.0 total package. I have a Butler Creek ling on it that does give when you walk but if it's going to be a long hike, I do have to think about carrying that thing all day. It gets to be a challenge holding it offhand on a running target and takes a little bit of practice and strength to be successful at that(like those running coyotes). I'm always looking for something to rest on or against and if I can it becomes rock steady with no recoil, so I get to enjoy the view through the scope.

Granted it is a toy.......but toys are fun.

Back to the 40 grn nosler.
I remember Steve Timm of the varmint hunter magazine testing them when the first came out. he pushed them to 4200 and said nosler took them to 4800 in a 22-284. Thats got to be a tough jacket to withstand those velocities. At what range does it slow down too much to work, any idea? If I understand it right, RPM's dont slow down in relation to vel, is that correct? If so, the high RPM's of the bullet must help it explode at closer ranges, but still expand at longer range. Just thinking outloud with this, I have nothing to back it up with.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Back to the 40 grn nosler.
I remember Steve Timm of the varmint hunter magazine testing them when the first came out. he pushed them to 4200 and said nosler took them to 4800 in a 22-284. Thats got to be a tough jacket to withstand those velocities. At what range does it slow down too much to work, any idea? If I understand it right, RPM's dont slow down in relation to vel, is that correct? If so, the high RPM's of the bullet must help it explode at closer ranges, but still expand at longer range. Just thinking outloud with this, I have nothing to back it up with.

I'm not sure about the range limitations. I've taken game at and around 300-350 Yards with this 40g NBT but nothing farther than that. It gets hard to hit stuff beyond 350 yards unless you have a solid rest and a target/varmint set up from my experience.

My guess would be the controlling factor would be the velocity that would determine the penetration vs. expansion formula but I would defer to those who have more experience in testing this area. Perhaps a ballistic program would indicate at what range your particular bullet and muzzle velocity would fall into this window of opportunity of maybe as low as 2200-2500 fps. I would PM Seafire as he has done some interesting testing on this very factor.

Maybe if you had a fast stepping 22-284 or a 22-250AI this would yield an effective rang of out to 500 yards before the bullet reduced it's velocity down to the "magical" 2300-2500 fps range. I'm not sure.

P.O. Ackley, a prominent gunsmith from past days did a lot of testing of small caliber high velocity for the Army on pigs and burros. If you can find his stuff it makes for interesting reading.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:

quote:

I wonder why the 223 is such an obsession for you? You are gettimg boring on this topic.

Probably to refute the crap that is spread. I refer you to my statement above.

quote:

22 centerfires are too small for deer.

Oh wait, that is misinformation coming guys who have never used them!

Is the 223 now a cult religion in the hunting world? It’s just an another round guys. Legal in some states, not legal in others.

Is this a campaign to make it legal in all states and on any game?


I wonder.

quote:

It’s just an another round guys.

You are right, and I've said it before, if you dont like it, dont use it. Now, wasn't that easy.

quote:

You are right, and I've said it before, if you dont like it, dont use it. Now, wasn't that easy.

Exactly, and please don't try to lecture the world that something shouldn't be used or doesn't work when you have ZERO experience with the topic.

Whew!Talk about a close call! Figured since I,ve made it to the age of 42 without ever, to the best of my knowledge, even pulled the trigger on a .223,that I was pretty well qualified on the vast non experience part. Was able to remember that I,ve been here quite a while, but having been born a Canuck, probly did,nt qualify on the "from Alaska" part. Oh well. Guess I need to lay off the jalapenos that keep me up way too late some times. I,ve recently become attracted to a pretty little rifle thats chambered in .223, and only in .223.. Which has me snoopin around over here trying to figure out what the heck I could do with it. Let me rephrase that..looking for ideas to make it easier to get it past the accounting department. Without who,s approval, new toys do not enter.. There ya have it. Back to the ice cream I go.

Muttly,
Did you ever read any Patrick Mcmanus? He said you dont have to worry about how many guns you have, as the wife never counts guns, only the empty holes in the gunrack. he said whenever he wanted a new gun, he just added another hole to his gunrack. Although his wife told him, " i used to be able to dust your gunrack in 5 min when we first got married, now it takes me 1/2 hour. I must be getting older"

I choose to use bigger rifles for deer but it's hunting season and this is the small bore forum. It's the time of year for 223 deer threads.

I just wish people would post pics of their hunt. Makes everything more interesting. I like to see the animal, the terrain, the happy hunter the rifle.

Muttly--Noticed you are new--Welcome aboard. You have a couple of very serious issues here. The .223 is not nearly enough gun for those Alaska mosquitoes. It is too much for spruce hens, ptarmagins and snowshoes. I understand that the native Alaskans use it on caribou. As impressed as I am with it's performance on deer, I might be reluctant to use it on caribou. Don't know? Also don't know why I would be. Punch a hole in an animals lungs or heart or liver and in some cases a combination of those things and that animal is going to expire, usually in fairly close proximity to where that orifice was acquired. Convincing the accounting dept should be easy. You are buying it to train the accounting dept. With the mild recoil and report, the accounting dept will tremendously enjoy their new tool--which you will have the chore of testing, cleaning, sighting from time to time. If the accounting dept has any new accountants or it is expected the staff will increase in the future, this will be the ideal thing to facillitate their training. Now to the serious dilemmas you have. Do you really think NEED is a factor for buying a new gun? It has nothing to do with it. Next delemma is you better hope that ice cream is faster than the jalapenos. Let us know what .223 you are looking at and the results of the accounting departments decision.

Muttly- Welcome to AR. As for purpose.... well in your neck of the woods a .223 would make a great seal gun and effective on wolves as well. The .223 is very common among the Natives. I don't believe I'd use it as much as they do, but marksmanship proves most useful. Nate

quote:

That load is producing about 2400-2500 fps at 300 yards and the performance of the Nosler BT with it's solid base is to yield greater penetration than at the higher muzzle velocity

I've done a lot of this...

however since the thread is about the 223, even tho guys on line have told me that it is not an indicator of penetration abilities on a game animal, I disagree...

but having some 3/8 inch steel plate, in 22 caliber I can tell you that most bullets with an MV of 3100 +, at 100 yds, will bounce right off of that steel plate...

at an MV of 2500 fps or so, many of those bullets will penetrate right thru that steel plate at 100 yds... to include a 40 grain ballistic tip...

It made no sense to me at first, but then I was relying on what I had heard, not what I had seen...

so with an MV of 2500 fps or so at 300 yds, that bullet would have ended up penetrating thru steel plate of 3/8 thick... and certainly would have passed thru the vitals of a deer and incapacitated it pretty quickly...

If I just limited myself, to all the information published by guys who were just passing on more info, developed or created by guys who never really tried it, they just philosophized it.... then I'd know a fraction of what I know... and what I know, I have seen from testing it and seen it with my own eyes...

it all goes back to shot placement and knowing the fact of what the bullet is going to do when it gets there...

guys sing the praises of larger calibers and larger magnums...because it gives a greater margin to overcome shooter errors..

but when you get guys who varmint hunter and waste several thousand prairie dogs or sage rats every year.... their ability to put a 22 caliber 40 grain bullet in the right spot at 300 yds, is quite a bit better than guys other place who might shoot a couple of boxes of larger caliber ammo annually...

the critics here I bet have minimal to zero experience of actually working with what they are criticizing...

then they get pissed off because successes blows holes in their little credos....

they have no experience to judge if the combo is capable of being successful or not...

but it doesn't stop them from getting on their soapbox and start slinging accusations all over the place...

if they think that a combo like this is not capable of taking down a deer with DRT status?

how capable do they think this combo would be if they were hit in a vital zone at 300 yds, and surviving? they wouldn't worry and have no thoughts of not surviving?

it'll take a deer easily, hit in the right spot... every day of the week...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

That load is producing about 2400-2500 fps at 300 yards and the performance of the Nosler BT with it's solid base is to yield greater penetration than at the higher muzzle velocity

it'll take a deer easily, hit in the right spot... every day of the week...

roger

Guys, I am not sure about this but I don't think the .223 is even legal for deer here in Nebraska. I know I wouldn't use it. The smallest thing I use is a little .257 Roberts with 100 grain TSX bullets or 117 grain Hornady BTSPs. Why would you pick such a tiny little gun?

Guys, I checked. You can shoot a .22 caliber rifle for deer in Nebraska if it delivers at least 900 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, I checked. You can shoot a .22 caliber rifle for deer in Nebraska if it delivers at least 900 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards.

and some .223 loadings do this!

Dave Bush--It is my understanding that there are some states where a .223 not legal but a .25ACP would be. Go figure that one. You ask why the .223 is used? My first experience was letting youngsters use it due to the mild recoil. The results were so much better than I ever expected that I'm thinking my next deer I'll leave the .243 home and take the .223 or possibly .222. My nephew is a grown man, Iraq veteran and can shoot the bigger guns, but he switched to .223 after he saw what his son did with it. His last two were with the .223--both one shot kills as have been all the ones I have witnessed (several at this point). My .243 and .223 are both Win model 70's and my .222 is a 600 Rem, so if I went .222 I'd have a smaller shorter rifle which is handy in brush. Again it all goes back to a youngster shooting something they are comfortable with, taking their shot under adult supervision and wait on a good presentation before the shot is taken. These things seem to reslt in their making the well placed shot and when that is done the fun is over and work begins. My experience has been it works everytime. Why not use it?

We have thousands of troops who kill deer sized critters everyday with .223s. Why not deer? I've used a .222 on numerous deer, although we have small deer in FL. But BIG hogs. My granddaughter, (17 y.o.) hunts exclusively with a .223 Contender. She won't hunt deer but will roll a hog at the drop of a hat, and has done so about 15-18 times now.

Well, thank you gents, for the warm welcome! Aye. A bit of McManus when I was a kid.. The ice cream, as is it turned out,was about equal the speed of the jalapenos.. Yeah. A crash course in the 223. Just seems like it shoud be a good, fun, gun. That bein the true determining factor of any considered gun purchases to ponder, at least in my case.

Muttly--Tell us more--what do you use guns for? Do you hunt? Have kids? Reload? Not being nosey that helps nail things down for you.

I wont even hunt deer with a 243. Smallest Ill go with is a 257. I dont like loosing them.

In fact, I would even call hunting Mulies with a 223 unethical. I mean what is the point? Got something to prove? The straight up fact is there are a lot, a LOT more suitable calibers to use.. Its not like the days of the great depression when someone had to use a .22 lr to put food on the table..

I got no respect for this stupidity.

quote:

Originally posted by A7drvr:
We have thousands of troops who kill deer sized critters everyday with .223s. Why not deer? I've used a .222 on numerous deer, although we have small deer in FL. But BIG hogs. My granddaughter, (17 y.o.) hunts exclusively with a .223 Contender. She won't hunt deer but will roll a hog at the drop of a hat, and has done so about 15-18 times now.

Good point! Up here in NE, SD, WY, we have some pretty big deer. I have seen some real monsters along the Republican River near Kansas. My parter once shot a super buck and it was all the two of us could do to get it in to a trailer. Go north to North Dakota or Canada, they get super big in body. I am just not comfortable using a .223. In fact, I don't even use a .243 anymore but many do. A .257 Bob, 25-06, 6.5, or a .270 I think are just about ideal. The Bob gives you all the benefits of a .223 but has a heavier bullet and, IMHO, they just work better.

quote:

Guys, I checked. You can shoot a .22 caliber rifle for deer in Nebraska if it delivers at least 900 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards.

If the program did the calculations correct then the vast majority of 223 loads would not be legal. the 40gr load would be down around 550. Even 55gr loads would not make it. I was able to push a 60gr to 3150 and keep 900+ at 100yds.

Like I said to each his own but I wouldn't use a 223 with 40gr bullets on a mule deer.

As to using the 223 in the military and comparing it to hunting. Last I check the military has to use FMJ as well. so should we use them to hunt? If I can clear the cobwebs I seem to remember comments made if a soldier is wounded it takes several others out of the fight to take care of him.

If it is legal and you want to use it your choice. Not mine.

We have some nay sayers, but not one told of an actual experience that prompted the negative thinking.

I'm going through each states game laws, I'm not done yet, but I hav'nt found a single one yet that says you HAVE to use a .223 even if you dont like it.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
We have some nay sayers, but not one told of an actual experience that prompted the negative thinking.

Bullshit.

I for one did, and so did several others. Those that care about KE and such, and believe it represents something have spoken their part. Those who actually believe the mfg when they say certain bullets are designed for varmints have spoken. However for a true believer like you, it is ignored in favor of your belief. That's why you don't recognize that we have spoken, but it makes no difference.

You can believe your own BS all you want.



KB

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
We have some nay sayers, but not one told of an actual experience that prompted the negative thinking.

I certainly outlined the reasons for my reservations with regard to the use of .22 centerfires on deer, and they are based on personal experience.

I've killed a fair number of deer with a .22-250, and while I can't necessarily argue with the results (dead deer), I wasn't all that impressed by the round's performance on deer, especially with varmint bullets, which seems to be what both you and TEANCUM are using based on your posts.

I don't think anybody disputes that a .22 centerfire can work on deer, but so can a .22 LR. I prefer a round that gives me a virtual guarantee of an exit wound on a broadside shot, because I hate spending hours upon hours searching for a deer that ran off and didn't leave a blood trail, and my own experience tells me that varmint bullets out of a fast .22 don't exit.

That's what finally lead me to abandon the .22-250 in favor of a .30-06; I shot a fair sized 11 pt whitetail with it, and it ran into the thick stuff, leaving zero blood trail, but I could tell by it's reaction that I had hit it fairly well. By the time I was finally able to locate the deer a few hours later, somebody else had found it and was tagging it. I haven't used my .22-250 on deer since.

If I ever felt the need to use the .22-250 on deer again, I certainly wouldn't load it with 40 grain BTs. I would most likely use a TSX.

He qualified the use of "varmint bullets" by stating a range long enough to be inside their optimum envelope.

I shot a lot of deer with a 220 Swift and wouldn't shoot one inside 100 yds, maybe 150 with that particular 40 gr bullet. Past 200 I'd shoot as far as I knew I could hit (which starts a whole nuther pissin match so I won't go there).

OTOH before I found a better bullet I shot many deer with a Hornady 52 gr match HP and always had complete pass throughs on broadside shots. Even at an MV of over 3800 fps and inside 100 yds. It all comes down to what bullet you pick and whether you're willing to keeping it in its proper velocity envelope. If you do that, there is no more real risk with a 223 than a 6MM or 25 caliber.

Kjjm$---"I certainly outlined the reasons for my reservations". This is your first post on this thread and it may well be with research you made a post someplace telling of actual negative experience. If so, it wasn't on this thread.

Kabluey--You posted numerous times you had NO experience--now all of a sudden you do. Tell us how it's done on the keyboard--Troll.