Kabluey--Glad I could help. The whole board is rooting for you. You can make it, it will be a long uphill stuggle. Keep taking the meds, get to a point where you don't think you need them is when you need them the most.

Thanks CM for worrying about me, but I think I'll be ok now. Here's best wishes for you, your deer season and your family too. Keep us posted on your adventures, perhaps with pictures.

Good luck with your varmint bullets. (You'll need it)

May your 223 stash last forever. (Like a wish granted by an evil Genie, which turned into a curse instead)

Wind just enough to keep the flies outta your face. (For one who is an A.H. and shows his ass so often, this is hygenically important)

And you shed rain and snow like a duck. (Goes with the quack persona)

KB

Teancum--You knocked the ball out of the park. 7 pages of responses on something as simple and routine as shooting a deer with a .223. Who would have thought that would prompt any interest? Things did wander a little and I just had something happen that I have to share--since I'm already off track. I had a telemarketer call. I always give them a hard time. This one as do a lot of them had a very strong accent. Being sarcastic I asked him what number do I press to get English? He said hold on--and came back and gave me a telephone number I could call---most helpful.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Teancum--You knocked the ball out of the park. 7 pages of responses on something as simple and routine as shooting a deer with a .223. Who would have thought that would prompt any interest? Things did wander a little and I just had something happen that I have to share--since I'm already off track. I had a telemarketer call. I always give them a hard time. This one as do a lot of them had a very strong accent. Being sarcastic I asked him what number do I press to get English? He said hold on--and came back and gave me a telephone number I could call---most helpful.

Carpetman1

I've been watching the first half of a football game and missed most of your exchanges with Kaboom but then again I don't know what he says anyway because I've had him on ignore for about a year, nothing that is logical or sensible ever comes from his comments.

From the comments made that I read, though it seems like the ole Flockshooter is losing his touch with reality. He is impossible to inform and seems to rely on the claims and intentions of the manufacturers to limit the use of any product. I've given up on any informative exchanges with him. Usually I will ask for information in the form of someone's experience. None of us have the time to make all the possible mistakes in these areas and it's a cool thing when someone else has experience that can point you in the right way.

Many wonderful discoveries have come about from people using products and/or procedures in a different manner and producing helpful meaningful results.

I think the use of the NBT .224 in 40g is one such discovery in it's application to taking some big game. I think it would be a wonderful round, when operating in the "magic envelope" that we know call it, on antelope as well.

I've loaded some 70g Varmint NBT .243 rounds at 3700+ fps that I'm shooting out of a 24" barrel that were originally intended for long range coyotes but wonder now if that also would be a winner on deer. Maybe next year I'll try that one. Although my Rem CDL doesn't have a suppressor for it and that it also 1/2 the fun of shooting the .223.

Keep up the good work.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
SeafireB17G--With your medical experience, what do you think the reason a deer that should be dead still shows life? You shoot their heart/liver/lungs out and they still run,walk, kick. I heard it is adrenaline? Heard adrenaline was the first hormone identified and it's a liquid put out by glands located over the kidneys. But I don't know if that is how what should be a dead deer isn't. Maybe attach a Tampon to the bullet to absorb the adrenaline?

The animal is still going even tho it has been shot is the sign that shock has not set in on the animal...a wild animal will not necessarily go into shock, because it has a strong will power to survive, but also may not realize what has actually happened to it..

but wild animals, deer & elk included, are going to expire when their is no longer adequate blood for circulation in their system..

since the head of a human holds about 20% of all the blood in the body, a loss of volume with shut down the brain, controlling everything pretty quickly...animals like deer may hold a lower percentage in the head, but still is going to expire when the volume is depleted enough to not give adequate circulation, particularly to the two most vital organs, the brain and the heart.. and then the third most vital, the lungs..

the average male human holds about 6 litres of blood within their body, so I am sure a deer is pretty close to the same volume...

perhaps one of our forum members who is a veterinarian can chime in and clarify that better..

Some people wait half hour or so after the shot before they approach an animal. Seems like this is even more common amongst bow hunters. I go immediately after the shot. If it drops in it's track, I'm there in just a couple minutes. I suspect the ones that show any life would have been lights out had I waited. I have not found that larger cals produce more drt in fact it seems the smaller cals do????. Another thing I have found that to me is very odd is that very few of the .22 cal shot deer travel any distance. The few that did, did not go far. The only thing I have came up with is that you don't know till you pull the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
SeafireB17G--With your medical experience, what do you think the reason a deer that should be dead still shows life? You shoot their heart/liver/lungs out and they still run,walk, kick. I heard it is adrenaline? Heard adrenaline was the first hormone identified and it's a liquid put out by glands located over the kidneys. But I don't know if that is how what should be a dead deer. Maybe attach a Tampon to the bullet to absorb the adrenaline?

CM,
From a physiological point of view. The animal will die when there is no longer, oxygen, energy, and nerve impulse to continue thriving.
Final death is when the nerves no longer tell the body to function.

Different ways to accomplish this.
1. Break down the skeletal structure so they can't physically run off.
2. Turn off the switch, brain so they can't run off or continue to function.
3. Cause the circulatory system to cease functioning by:
a. turning off the switch
b. damage the integrity of the system ie put a hole through it

Now on to shot reaction.
I think that pain stimuli directly influences animal reaction and adrenaline response in animals.

Heart- painful Think heart attack.
Bones-painful Think broken bones, ribs etc.
Lungs- not a lot of pain Think lung cancer, most people do realize they have it until other symptoms show up.
Liver issues- not usually painful
Kidneys- painful
Brain tumors- not horribly painful, but that can all be dependent upon location. Usually headaches, but other symptoms typically lead to it's discovery.

We must not forget indiviadual response, some simply will react differently than others.

I have observed that most deer shot through the heart or hit in the skeletal system (if physically capable) take off at high speed.

It seems when I shoot deer through the lungs, the response is not quite as bad. I have noticed this particular with bowhunting. Shoot a critter through the ribs without breaking any ribs, or hitting skeletal structure they will bounce off 10-40 yards and wonder what happened then tip over. Hit these same deer in the heart, or clip some skeletal structure and off they go at full tilt.

I think the response from bullets is typically much more pronounced than archery. I feel this is due to amount of energy transferred by the bullet and that energy affecting different pain centers.

I want to repeat that these have been my observations, and nothing scientific. Open to discussion and other theories. Maybe I should just start a new thread as to not get this one off track and let it die.

Let it die sounds good roger

Here is where he is wrong and where he accidently made good judgemnt..

At that extended distance the 40 gr. bullet lost enough velocity to perform properly. At closer range it usually blows up on the skin.
so that is his accidental good thing!

His bad judgement is 281 yards is too far for any of the hot 22s IMO, and the normally high Idaho wind moves those small bullets a good deal, so he probably wiggled on as opposed to wiggling off..

I have killed a lot of big game with the 22s and its a fine caliber if you use a little intelligence and maturity with it..Keep shots within about 100 to 150 yards in most instances, use 60 gr. Hornady HP or SPs, take only broadside shots and place the bullet in the rib cage and off the shoulder bones, otherwise you will wound more deer than you kill. If you cannot do this, and many claim they can but they do not, thus the bad rap the 22s get. You can shorten the range to 40 yards and the same works for the 22 L.R.

Accidental good judgment??? shisseitt !!!. Is that not an oxymoron, or perhaps just attributing accidental good judgment to a moron?

Sorry folks, I couldn't resist.

KB

Ray,
Maybe you should read "all" of TEACUM's posts on this thread (slowly) and then maybe you will grasp what he said..
You start right off by saying:
His bad judgement is 281 yards is too far for any of the hot 22s IMO, and the normally high Idaho wind moves those small bullets a good deal, so he probably wiggled on as opposed to wiggling off..

That's just one example were you got it wrong..
And then there is the off hand statement about about the 40 gr. bullet..
If you had read the whole thread including some of Seafire's posts you may not have made such a dumb statement..
My experience shooting steel both T1 (1/4") and mild at close range (under 50yds) is the same as Seafires..

Ray's not wrong.

Think of the experimentation - on game - it took to discover that "magic envelope".

And if not the result of experiments, then what? Maybe just a wild ass interpolation - certainly not a wild ass guess? Teancum would never do that.

Teancum touts experience, think of the specific experience it would take to be qualified to make the assertions he has made herein, and I did read all his posts carefully. Think of all the undisclosed wounded deer it would take to discover that so-called "magic envelope", assuming it exists at all.

Are we talking about the mystical "thousands" of deer again?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
He's not wrong.

Think of the experimentation - on game - it took to discover that "magic envelope".

And if not the result of experiments, then what? Maybe just a wild ass interpolation - certainly not a wild ass guess? Teancum would never do that.

The man touts experience, think of the specific experience it would take to be qualified to make the assertions he has made herein, and I did read all his posts carefully. Think of all the undisclosed wounded deer it would take to discover that so-called "magic envelope", assuming it exists at all.

KB

kb this isn't my quote but it sure applies to you..

"I'll never not groove on the correlation of the staunchest naysayers, being consistently the one's with the least experience on the matter.
That fact always cracks me up".
Reality trumps Imagination and soundly..

Say that to Ray, who I'm thinking for the most part agrees with what I'm saying. Question his experience. Go ahead, make my day.

On second thought perhaps questioning his experience, since he disagrees with you, is no big leap for you since apparantly you are already questioning his ability to read, and to reason, and draw valid conclusions or inferences from his experience, and furthermore implied that he is dumb. Hummm....

I certainly agree with what he said, except the accidental part, and I also think he is way too nice about this farce.
KB

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:
Ray,
Maybe you should read "all" of TEACUM's posts on this thread (slowly) and then maybe you will grasp what he said..
You start right off by saying:
His bad judgement is 281 yards is too far for any of the hot 22s IMO, and the normally high Idaho wind moves those small bullets a good deal, so he probably wiggled on as opposed to wiggling off..

That's just one example were you got it wrong..
And then there is the off hand statement about about the 40 gr. bullet..
If you had read the whole thread including some of Seafire's posts you may not have made such a dumb statement..
My experience shooting steel both T1 (1/4") and mild at close range (under 50yds) is the same as Seafires..

I kind of quit reading this thread along page 3, since it is the same old shit, different day. Why some people get their panties in such a wad over OTHER people's LEGAL choices amazes me.

I carry a .223 almost daily and have killed several hogs and at least a couple of deer with one. Is it my favorite cartridge for general hunting in Texas? By no means, that would be a tough call but besides the 22LR, I lean towards the 6.5x55, the .308 Win and the .300 WM.

All that said, my REAL life experience with the .223 loaded with 64 gr Win Power Points is that it will kill deer graveyard dead with ease if the shooter hits it anywhere more or less center mass in the front half of the deer. I have at least 10 one shot kills, no misses, no second shots, and no lost deer on my ranch with the .223. Most of these were friend's kids first deer, a few were my son's first, second and third deer with a TC .223 that I had cut the stock off of so it would fit him.

I carefully coached ALL of them on the kill zone ("picture a basketball centered between and a bit back of their front legs and try to shoot through both sides of that ball"), when to shoot and took them to my rifle range and let them shoot the gun a few times to get both the feel of it, and the confidence that it would shoot where the crosshairs were and that it would not hurt them when they pulled the trigger. They had to consistently be able to hit a 10 inch plate at 100 yards. Surprisingly, none of the kids ever had any problem with that accuracy level and they all killed their deer with the .223. I didn't keep records but the fartherest I recall one going was my son's first deer, a small 8 point that went maybe 40 yards after he blew his heart up.

Perfect deer cartridge? Obviously not, even assuming there is such a thing. But for some frigging idiots to post in here and say it won't or can't work because the hole is too small, the bullet is too light, the energy is insufficient, etc is absolutely ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
But for some frigging idiots to post in here and say it won't or can't work because the hole is too small, the bullet is too light, the energy is insufficient, etc is absolutely ridiculous.

Who said that? I must have missed that post. Whoever said that ought to be ashamed and scolded big time for the error of his ways. People like that are probably responsible for at least half the misinformation in cyberspace, and the other half of internet BS can be found within the advocacy posts re deer hunting with the 223.

Haven't you understood the difference in what you say you are doing and those claiming outrageous results with varmint bullets?

Do you shoot 55gr varmint bullets at deer? Do you use 40gr BTs at 281 yds, in the "magic envelope"? If you do, I didn't see that post either.

KB

Some people can't seem to understand when they've made their point (REPEATEDLY) and others can agree or disagree and then it's time to shut the fuck up.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Some people can't seem to understand when they've made their point (REPEATEDLY) and others can agree or disagree and then it's time to shut the fuck up.

Gatogordo, the Will of the smallbore hunting forums.

Love it.

Gato,
As you have probably seen, your experiance mirrors mine exactly.
If we have the kids use a 30-06 though, the kill percentage should go up according to some, but how do we explain 110-120% success?

Kabluey,
It is once again obvious that the 40gr BT performs within the parameters that Teancum is using it. No matter how the Nosler engineers designed it, they cannot change the physics of actual performance. Just because it doen't fit your idea of how it should work, does not change the fact that it does.

Teancum, Seafire and others have the experience and results to show that the performance is repeatable. You are trying to write it off as fluke. That is incorrect.

You and Ray, et al disagree based on emotion and personal bias. But that does not change the laws of physics and performance.

You just cannot seem to grasp that fact, and try to throw BS all around with smoke and mirrors "picture on cartridge boxes" "magic envelope" "accidental judgement".

What part of "IT WORKS" and venison in the freezer do you not understand?

I will repeat this: Just because you think that it should not work, does not change the fact that it does.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Some people can't seem to understand when they've made their point (REPEATEDLY) and others can agree or disagree and then it's time to shut the fuck up.

Gato is right. It's the same argument page after page, year after year and the two sides will never agree.

quote:

I have at least 10 one shot kills, no misses, no second shots, and no lost deer on my ranch with the .223. Most of these were friend's kids first deer, a few were my son's first, second and third deer with a TC .223 that I had cut the stock off of so it would fit him.

How many of those were at 300 yds? with 40 grains??

What I find disturbing about the constant 223 "victories" being posted is that its not about killing game...its about sport shooting...bragging. I don't hunt to brag..I hunt to kill game. There is no doubt in my mind that we will in the future hear about a deer that was killed at 4-5-600 yds with a 223...just so the shooter cn brag. I'm more impressed with a stalk to 50 yds and 6.5 through the vitals.

This is about ego....not about hunting.

quote:

How many of those were at 300 yds? with 40 grains??

WTF difference does that make to the deer? Is it or are they any less dead? You guys are arguing endlessly over a done deal, apparently saying it can't or didn't happen. Amazing.

Personally I've never done it, but if anyone wants to bet a $1000 or more that I can't kill a deer on my ranch with a .223 and 40 grain bullets, step up and come on down, our deer season opens next weekend. I've got a old twist 700 Varmint that easily holds under 3 inches at 300 meters off a deer blind 2x4 ledge rest with 50 grain target loads, I'm sure it will do as well with 40s. I did it several times as a sort of "contest" that Dave King and I dreamed up some years back. I can shoot the deer in the head or rib cage, take your choice, if we don't recover the deer, I pay you $1000, if we do, have your (soon to be my) $1000 handy.

I repeat, if you don't like a .223 for anything then, by all means, don't use it. I would suggest a Barrett .50 BMG or similar if you feel undergunned at any range beyond 100 yards with a smaller caliber. I'll also repeat that I don't think it's an ideal choice for deer, but what someone else shoots is not my business, so why do some people choose to make such an issue of it?

You seem to be under the grossly mistaken impression that hunting shouldn't have an ego component. Are you really that silly?

Ya’ll,

I’ll address the quotes below sortta in sequence.

Scott, yes, much of it is the same argument, page after page. Maybe the two sides will not agree, but also maybe we will - a little bit, or significantly. We already agree to a much further degree that they will acknowledge, which I’ll explain

Gatogordo, I will not shut the fuck up, just because you think I should or say so. You are correct that I have stated my point repeatedly, and logic would cause one to think even the worst hard heads like you would at least understand my point. Yet you make a post which clearly demonstrates that you do not. It’s one thing to just disagree with that point, if you actually do, but another argument entirely when you put words on cyberspace as though that’s what I said.

SDhunter,
Now I’ll try to list the things upon which we agree:

Again, if what I say here is not true, then I missed that post.

First, nobody is saying it won’t (or can’t) work, if fact it seems to me that we are in agreement that it will work. Maybe we need to define “work”, so I come back to that.

Same for the hole is too small. Nobody said that. Most likely we all agree that the size of the hole matters, but probably not for purposes of this discussion. That’s because we all agree that the 223 will kill deer, sooner or later. We just argue whether it’s sooner than later, or the other way around.

Many of us have agreed that the 223 is not the perfect choice for deer and hogs but like gato, many haul it around anyway and have success with it.

It seems to me that we have agreed (or conceded) “that the 40gt BT performs within the parameters that teancum” has described.

We agree with the statement “No matter how the Nosler engineers designed it, they cannot change the physics of actual performance.”

I even partially agree with this sentence: “Just because it doen't fit your idea of how it should work, does not change the fact that it does.”

But now I’ll shift into some of the issues upon which we disagree:

First it’s relating to the word “works”. Quote: “What part of "IT WORKS" and venison in the freezer do you not understand? I will repeat this: Just because you think that it should not work, does not change the fact that it does.”

Those words “magic envelope” and “accidental good judgment” were not my words, but I used them to emphasize a point. The central point of the argument is that many of the 223 advocates do not make clear distinction of what works. You use an example like the one in this thread, 40gt BT at 281 yds - “magic envelope” as evidence of a much broader point or conversation. To simply say that the 223 “works” is way-way open ended. It amazes me the lack of concession on the part of some 223 advocates, like SDhunter, who don’t seem to see that.

I’ll make a suggestion, that has the potential to resolve this small arena of disagreement. I and others have acknowledged that the 223 “works” in general, and even under extreme situations, such as 281 yds. So, I believe that we have done our part to reach agreement. What I’m looking for, specifically, is acknowledgment on the part of “experienced” 223 users that the use of “varmint” bullets for deer is not a best practice. Many within this thread, including Gato, have acknowledged it, at least partially. To avoid repeating myself, again, I won’t explain why or what is a varmint type bullet. For experienced persons, it should be obvious.

Quote: “Teancum, Seafire and others have the experience and results to show that the performance is repeatable. You are trying to write it off as fluke. That is incorrect.”
The above quote is also a source of much disagreement, but it can be convoluted to explain. Let’s use the words “experience” and “results” and “repeatable”. Pit the experience of Nosler themselves with that of teancum and seafire combined. Who wins? I feel rest assured that Nosler engineered the bullet so that in their test lab the results are repeatable, time after time. Who knows if Nosler simulated in the lab the results reported by teancum? I really doubt that they did simply because that's not what they designed the bullet for. There is as much difference in teancum’s and seafire’s experience and repeatable results, and testing means and methods, compared to that of Nosler, as there is between and horse manure and fact.

None of you rampant and emotional 223 advocates have acknowledged that the repeatable results of the use of a varmint type bullet will be explosive fragmentation, if used within the manufacturer’s design intentions. Your focus seems to be the continued advocacy of the 223, regardless of that fact.

Another point of disagreement:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
but how do we explain 110-120% success?

I simply can not understand how the success rates (100%) claimed is the truth. It is obviously bragging or perhaps intended to add credibility, but to me it’s just the opposite result, because I don’t believe it. It’s been my observation that people live in different realities, and one of the difficult issues is to sort out when it’s simply a forgivable different reality or a lie. That’s why the word bullshit is useful, because it spans the gap between different reality and lies.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Gato is right. It's the same argument page after page, year after year and the two sides will never agree.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Some people can't seem to understand when they've made their point (REPEATEDLY) and others can agree or disagree and then it's time to shut the fuck up.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I carry a .223 almost daily and have killed several hogs and at least a couple of deer with one. Is it my favorite cartridge for general hunting in Texas? By no means, that would be a tough call

Perfect deer cartridge? Obviously not, even assuming there is such a thing. But for some frigging idiots to post in here and say it won't or can't work because the hole is too small, the bullet is too light, the energy is insufficient, etc is absolutely ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
Kabluey,
It is once again obvious that the 40gr BT performs within the parameters that Teancum is using it. No matter how the Nosler engineers designed it, they cannot change the physics of actual performance. Just because it doen't fit your idea of how it should work, does not change the fact that it does.

Teancum, Seafire and others have the experience and results to show that the performance is repeatable. You are trying to write it off as fluke. That is incorrect.

You and Ray, et al disagree based on emotion and personal bias. But that does not change the laws of physics and performance.

You just cannot seem to grasp that fact, and try to throw BS all around with smoke and mirrors "picture on cartridge boxes" "magic envelope" "accidental judgement".

What part of "IT WORKS" and venison in the freezer do you not understand?

I will repeat this: Just because you think that it should not work, does not change the fact that it does.

One thing I find interesting is that we are now up to 7 pages. If I'm not mistaken, we only have 2 people posting negative experience. One stated deer not found but he feels sure it was hit----hard to draw much conclusion from that. Second one stated he has seen several cases of one to 2 dozen aimed shots to bring one down--seen it several times. This one would sure make me wonder how many of the shots was the deer still in same county as the shooter??? Certainly not to put a 30-06 down in any way but I'd bet if this thread was about 30-06 deer that got away there would be more than 2 responding.

Kabluey--We can all agree that Gatogordo is full of it and knows nothing of which he speaks, despite having stated he has a fair amount of actual experience. Why don't you take up his offer and go make yourself an easy $1000? Gosh it would be like taking candy from a baby. Oh and post the results and tell us what you bought with the $1000. $1000 would get you a pretty nice .223 and then you could post some actual experience with it--finally be able to give some credence to your posts on this matter.

IMO, CM, the central issue of the problem is that some people posting here have told stories of their experience which is believable and consistant with the design of the varmint bullets and the expectations of that.

Others, like youself, don't even seem to know the difference in what one may expect from a varmint bullet, compared to bullets designed for other purposes, like deer and hogs. Yet you make claims of varmint bullets performing like the text book controlled expansion bullets, exactly like you dreamed it up.

What do you expect? For us to believe everything we read on the internet?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kabluey--We can all agree that Gatogordo is full of it and knows nothing of which he speaks, despite having stated he has a fair amount of actual experience. Why don't you take up his offer and go make yourself an easy $1000? Gosh it would be like taking candy from a baby. Oh and post the results and tell us what you bought with the $1000. $1000 would get you a pretty nice .223 and then you could post some actual experience with it--finally be able to give some credence to your posts on this matter.

There are several reeasons that bet is BS. First, it's the different reality thingy. It appears to me that many if not most 223 advocates have a multitude of ways to twist reality, much to the surprise of those who cherish objectivity. I don't enter bets where the outcome is loaded so much with subjectivity. It wouldn't prove a thing, and I would lose $1000.

Besides, it's one thing arguing on the internet, but another arguing face to face, especially with the ranch host. I ain't stupid, regardless of whether you think so.

KB

Kabluey--What do I expect you to believe? I'd hazzard to guess on that. You obviously believe everything you can dream up to be fact and if you ever had any contact, whatsoever, with reality, that vanished years ago. Gatogordo made you a fine offer--take him up--an EASY $1000.

Lol--This thing doesnt work---but you'd lose $1000??? Please explain.

People who claim the 223 doesn't kill deer reliably either have no experience with th cartridge or are unwittingly commenting on thier marksmanship

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
People who claim the 223 doesn't kill deer reliably either have no experience with th cartridge or are unwittingly commenting on thier marksmanship

Yea - ditto.

Welcome back gumboot. Glad to see you have a computer again.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kabluey--What do I expect you to believe? I'd hazzard to guess on that. You obviously believe everything you can dream up to be fact and if you ever had any contact, whatsoever, with reality, that vanished years ago. Gatogordo made you a fine offer--take him up--an EASY $1000.

Gato didn't make me an offer. I doubt that I would be welcome on his ranch, and besides I just got off the phone with my Texas buddy who says his lease is runn over with hogs. I'll probably go there again. The last thing I want to do when actually enjoying a hunting experience, or simply a hog shooting experience, is suffer the company of a 223 advocate and the stress of his BS. It ain't a competative sport to me, and I certainly don't need to prove my manhood by shooting deer and hogs with the smallest most explosive bullets. Furthermore, I don't want to watch others do it, then rationalize their way around the inevitable failures. It's just too disgusting - the company and the experience.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Lol--This thing doesnt work---but you'd lose $1000??? Please explain.

I did explain, and it went over your head again, like the other stuff I said.

quote:

What I find disturbing about the constant 223 "victories" being posted is that its not about killing game...its about sport shooting...bragging. I don't hunt to brag..I hunt to kill game. There is no doubt in my mind that we will in the future hear about a deer that was killed at 4-5-600 yds with a 223...just so the shooter cn brag. I'm more impressed with a stalk to 50 yds and 6.5 through the vitals.

This is about ego....not about hunting

My oldest son's first deer was stalked and shot at 45 yards. Does it diminish the fact that it was shot with a 22 centerfire through the vitals?


I agree, but for a different reason. It is about ego and who can shoot the biggest baddest to totally dominate the species targeted. When someone accomplishes the job without using a perceived "manly" cartridge they take it personally.

The main reason I got into using 22 centerfires was precisely because of the internet experts spreading mistruths. I have been pleasantly surprised, impressed and enjoyed the lack of recoil. Shot placement trumps everything, unless the equipment used is totally inadequate.

1. A friend of mine uses one every and has since the late 70's, and he has no problem getting his deer/antelope every year.
2. My family has killed over three dozen animals with 22 centerfires.
3. There are a bunch of guys over on 24hr that have used them successfully, go argue with them. They will not be so polite, as they will point out the obvious.
4. Didn't Ackley himself use a high speed 22 centerfire?

So the equipment is not inadequate.

quote:

People who claim the 223 doesn't kill deer reliably either have no experience with th cartridge or are unwittingly commenting on thier marksmanship

Gumboot you are spot on.

So, it's ok to troll the forum and accuse others of lying but, when it comes time to back up your convictions you wouldn't consider it?

I someone who's hunted Gato's ranch. He said it was a wonderful place and he was a gracious host. You should take him up on his bet. I bet you would get breakfast out of it and maybe a $1000

"I aint stupid, regardless of whether you think so." KB I never said I thought you were stupid. I didn't give you that much credit--I think it goes well beyond that.

BREAKING NEWS!!! The Gatogordo Ranch has been renamed the FatCat Ranch. The previous owner made a ridiculous wager and had so many takers, he lost so many bets he was forced to sell. New owner is from Alaska. New owner will allow deer hunting only with tanks.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
So, it's ok to troll the forum and accuse others of lying but, when it comes time to back up your convictions you wouldn't consider it?

I someone who's hunted Gato's ranch. He said it was a wonderful place and he was a gracious host. You should take him up on his bet. I bet you would get breakfast out of it and maybe a $1000

I would consider it, but I have problems with embracing it whole-hartedly. You have to understand where I'm coming from to appreciate that.

I have contridictory feelings about it. First as explained, I don't like to think of hunting or shooting game especially deer or hogs as a competative sport.

However, OTOH, I am not opposed to competition per se. For one thing, I consider blowhards, herein, as big game, and in that way, this whole argument is about bagging blowhards, as sort of trophies. Granted, cm ain't much of a trophy, and the real trophies are far more elusive.

So, in that mode, it should be easy to see that I consider gato's bet as just a fine example of blowhardsmanship, although he isn't a pure example of that character trait.

Consequently, suffering the company of blowhards isn't something I will enjoy in the same context as hunting. After all, since we are talking about experience, IME true blowhards have few or none other redeeming qualities making suffering their presence worthwhile. Gato doesn't fit that mold, IMO, and a set-up with a bet like that presupposes the lack of enjoyment for me, and tops it off with $1000 wasted to boot.

I would rather simply give gato the $1000, and then go about enjoying his company and the hunt and the rest of the comradery. Making others wrong, or right, should be from a distance, (281 yds, within the "magic envelope", precisely, lazered) as it has too much potential for messing up the fun and friendships, both of which I count much higher than BS re the 223. The way I feel about it is that there is little probability of me being friends with a real blowhard, and I'm careful about who I hunt with, so I don't want to go into a situation that is setup for failure in the fun and friendship department.

KB

My reply was pretty tounge in cheek. After several vociferous go arounds on th subject of th 06 being too small for Brown bear. 458 Win. Made his signature line what I said only with th 30/06 and bear inserted. . Really I just coppied his sign. Line. . . I think all the even remotely intelligent heads r exuasted.with that argument. There is no no way I want t get it going. I'll hopefully shoot some caribou with my 223 this week. 53 gr TSX at 3100 fps .. . Boy, that will get a whoo has going good! !!!!